Basic Question

[Cat]

Would someone give me a quick and dirty explanation of Christian Wicca please? Some Christians on another board are interested, and I am at a loss to explain because I know nothing.

Thanks!!

[Simply Puzzled]

Would someone give me a quick and dirty explanation of Christian Wicca please? Some Christians on another board are interested, and I am at a loss to explain because I know nothing.

Thanks!!

Christian Wicca is a contradiction in terms. One could be both a Christian and a Wiccan, if one were extremely good at handling cognitive dissonance, but Wicca is a priesthood with its own gods and Christ just ain't one of them. Trying to force them together does nothing but destroy the beauty of two religions. Christian Witchcraft, now that's a different story...

[Brigid Rowan]

Christian Wicca is a contradiction in terms. One could be both a Christian and a Wiccan, if one were extremely good at handling cognitive dissonance, but Wicca is a priesthood with its own gods and Christ just ain't one of them. Trying to force them together does nothing but destroy the beauty of two religions. Christian Witchcraft, now that's a different story...

Thats basically my feeling on it too...Wicca, in its original form, was intended as an initiatory religion, with Goddess and God, HPS, and HP. It has been reinterpretted, and eclectisized (not a word, but it works) and taken various non-traditional forms...but I still think the basic belief structure would make it hard to merge with the Father/Son/Holy Ghost and having no other Gods stuff of Christian belief.

Their ARE Christian witches...Lady Celt is their forum guide (I think)..she would be able to offer you some insight I would bet, she's a sweetheart.

[Terra Mater]

Christian Wicca is a contradiction in terms. One could be both a Christian and a Wiccan, if one were extremely good at handling cognitive dissonance, but Wicca is a priesthood with its own gods and Christ just ain't one of them. Trying to force them together does nothing but destroy the beauty of two religions. Christian Witchcraft, now that's a different story...
Actually, Wicca does not have any gods or goddesses unique to itself. Instead, the priesthood reveres divine concepts that are common in many of the world's religions (maiden, mother, crone, wise man, youth, goddess, god, etc). The practitioners of Wicca then choose which deities best represent those concepts for them.

Christian Witchery does exist in many forms, the best known are Culdee and Norvicensian. Culdee evolved from the 9th to 12th centuries during the Celtic transition from "Pagan" to "Christian" and kept all the original deities by repackaging them a saints. Norvicensian appeared around 1980 and is inspired by the lives and teachings of three women from the Middle Ages: Brigid of Kildare, Hildegaard of Bingen, and Julian of Norwich. These women were Christians but they were also hedgewitches, and the path they inspired draws heavily from both sources.

A lesser known group, that just happens to call themselves Christian Wiccans, is almost exclusively a women's path, as it was started by women who felt the modern church had lost sight of the "love of Christ" in favor of dominating women. Their three are Mother Earth, Jesusina the Eternal Daughter, and Divine Love. They share "womenized" versions of the parables from the Christian Bible, as well as women's myths from a variety of cultures.

There are numerous other paths out there that blend both Christianity and Wicca, and its not as nonsensical as some would have you believe. Such blending often occurs in mixed path families, after all Pagans and Christians do marry and many times the children are raised with both faiths rather than being limited. For those that must remain in the closet about their beliefs, a Christian/Witchcraft blending can be the perfect solution to allow them the freedom to practice.

Reguardless of anyone's personal feelings on the topic, these paths are no less valid than any of those practiced by the posters to this topic and no less beautiful.

[Simply Puzzled]

Actually, Wicca does not have any gods or goddesses unique to itself. Instead, the priesthood reveres divine concepts that are common in many of the world's religions (maiden, mother, crone, wise man, youth, goddess, god, etc). The practitioners of Wicca then choose which deities best represent those concepts for them.

I strongly disagree. Wicca has specific gods whose names are oathbound. When talking about them to cowans, Wiccans had to use titles, and when those cowans decided they could be Wiccans without undergoing the initiation and learning the names, they had to resort to either using the titles, making up their own names (usually borrowing them from other deities) or trusting the word of oathbreakers as to what were the secret names.


Christian Witchery does exist in many forms, the best known are Culdee and Norvicensian. Culdee evolved from the 9th to 12th centuries during the Celtic transition from "Pagan" to "Christian" and kept all the original deities by repackaging them a saints. Norvicensian appeared around 1980 and is inspired by the lives and teachings of three women from the Middle Ages: Brigid of Kildare, Hildegaard of Bingen, and Julian of Norwich. These women were Christians but they were also hedgewitches, and the path they inspired draws heavily from both sources.

Hedgewitchery is completely separate from the priesthood of Wicca, and I was careful to distinguish Wicca from Witchcraft.


There are numerous other paths out there that blend both Christianity and Wicca, and its not as nonsensical as some would have you believe. Such blending often occurs in mixed path families, after all Pagans and Christians do marry and many times the children are raised with both faiths rather than being limited. For those that must remain in the closet about their beliefs, a Christian/Witchcraft blending can be the perfect solution to allow them the freedom to practice.

Firstly, don't switch words on me. We are talking about Christianity and Wicca, not Christianity and Witchcraft. Secondly, of course Christianity is influenced by Paganism (no Christian would have ever come up with hauling a tree into the house in the middle of winter) and vis-versa. But we aren't talking about paganism, we are talking about a specific priesthood. And you can't simply drop Jesus' name in the middle of a Wiccan ritual anymore than a Catholic priest can drop Isis' name in the middle of a mass (well, not without losing his church). If you take elements from Wicca, that's great, be honest: "I'm a Christian that is deeply influenced by the practices of Wiccans." If you create something new say so. There is no shame in creating something new, and there is no need to validate your own religion by claiming membership in one you have long since abandoned. You'll gain a lot more respect for it than you ever will by going around claiming to be a Christian Wiccan.


Reguardless of anyone's personal feelings on the topic, these paths are no less valid than any of those practiced by the posters to this topic and no less beautiful.

I think the issue here is not validity but intellectual honestly. Reducing Wicca down to a generic ritual format to worship any random god, along with some vague idea of karma and reincarnation is not fair to the religion. If there is beauty in disrespecting two religions this way, I have yet to find it. Me, I'll take the beauty of an Anglican mass that is part of a tradition stretching back hundreds of years over calling Jesus and the four quarters. That's just me though.

[LadyCelt]

I'm not very familiar with Wicca really besides the Rede. I'm more into Paganism than Wiccan, so there's not much I can really say. I believe that the Old Testament has a few different Babylonian, Sumerian, and Mesopotamian gods (El, Marduk, Ea) put into it. I don't say that to many Christians because I believe they should be able to have a belief different than mine with this since it is their faith.

I really have never heard of Christian Wicca. I don't know enough about what Wicca involves to be able to tell you what is compatable or not with those.

[Philosophia]

Here are some websites that may help:

Christian Wicca (http://www.christianwicca.org/)
Christian Wicca - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Wicca)
Witchvox article (http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usva&c=words&id=7541)
Can a person be both a Christian and a Wiccan? (http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcr5.htm)
Christian-Wicca (http://www.collegewicca.com/wiccafiles/christianwicca.html)
Google Directory - Christian Wicca (http://www.google.com/Top/Society/Religion_and_Spirituality/Pagan/Wicca/Traditions/Christian_Wicca/)

[LadyCelt]

Thanks for providing links

[Cat]

Thanks for the links!

I've met a person or two over the years who described herself as a Christian Wiccan. Never anyone I was close to (for reasons unrelated to religion), so I never asked them questions. Now I wish I had.

I apologize for coming in here and stirring the pot. I was just looking for information and figured this was a good place to begin.

[Brigid Rowan]

Thanks for the links!

I've met a person or two over the years who described herself as a Christian Wiccan. Never anyone I was close to (for reasons unrelated to religion), so I never asked them questions. Now I wish I had.

I apologize for coming in here and stirring the pot. I was just looking for information and figured this was a good place to begin.


Oh, heck...stir the pot!! It makes for the very best conversation! Im glad you brought this topic up, Im following it with interest!_pounce_

[Lunacie]

Overview of "the problem"

It is quite possible for a person to follow a syncretistic religion -- a faith involving elements from two or more religions. This is sometimes disparagingly called "shopping-cart religion." However, it is a common practice, particularly in the Far East. Many New Agers blend certain Christian and New Age beliefs and practices. So, a person could both:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/topo/topbul1d.gifWorship the Christian God, believing in the resurrection of Jesus, virgin birth, second coming and other historical Christian teachings.http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/topo/topbul1d.gifBelieve in selected elements from Wicca, such as respecting nature, caring about the environment, celebrating at solstices, equinoxes (http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_info.htm#days), harvest festivals, etc.
However, they might not necessarily be viewed as a fellow Christian or a fellow Wiccan by more conventional followers of these two religions.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcr5.htm

Even though I'm an Eclectic Wiccan I feel that unless you include worship of the Wiccan God and Goddess that you shouldn't really call yourself Wiccan or Christo-Wiccan. You would more properly call yourself a Pagan. And there's nothing wrong with being a Christo-Pagan, as Pagans believe in worship of many different gods, possibly including the Christian trinity.

[David19]

I strongly disagree. Wicca has specific gods whose names are oathbound. When talking about them to cowans, Wiccans had to use titles, and when those cowans decided they could be Wiccans without undergoing the initiation and learning the names, they had to resort to either using the titles, making up their own names (usually borrowing them from other deities) or trusting the word of oathbreakers as to what were the secret names.

I'd agree with you and Thomas that Wicca is a priesthood for 2 specific gods, that you need to be initiated into, and that isn't compatiable with Christianity, but I think it's fair to say eclectic Wicca would be compatiable with Christianity (IMO, I think eclectic Wicca and Traditional Wicca are 2 very different things), so in that sense, I see no reason why an eclectic Wiccan couldn't combine Christianity with eclectic Wicca.

[David19]

[B][SIZE=3]
http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcr5.htm

Even though I'm an Eclectic Wiccan I feel that unless you include worship of the Wiccan God and Goddess that you shouldn't really call yourself Wiccan or Christo-Wiccan. You would more properly call yourself a Pagan. And there's nothing wrong with being a Christo-Pagan, as Pagans believe in worship of many different gods, possibly including the Christian trinity.
[/FONT]

That's a good point, but the problem then becomes who are the Wiccan God and Goddess?, the only people who know are those who are initiated, and they're not parting with the secret, so if that's the case then, really the only ones who can call themselves Wiccan are Traditional Wiccans (Gardnerian, Alexandrian, etc).

[sari0009]

Would someone give me a quick and dirty explanation of Christian Wicca please? Some Christians on another board are interested, and I am at a loss to explain because I know nothing.

Thanks!!

It is contradictory. While Wicca doesn't necessarily forbid Christianity, Christianity does forbid polytheism, even while Christianity itself is not pure monotheism.

I think it's inevitable that some will mix the two anyway and it's so easy to do since Christians already are taught to ignore much of a huge part of the bible, the Old Testament. It was outdated in many respects by the New Testament. Not only that but the Bible is read in a highly interpretive manner, unless one takes the bible as the literal word of God despite the fact that not even Christ penned a single book.

Mixing Christianity with Wicca could seem like another major "update," though the deeper one gets into it, the more it's apparent much in the two religious paradigms doesn't overlap so well. It may begin to feel like grinding one's gears, so to speak. Many people don't probe that deeply though and it gives them a good base to step away from what didn't satisfy through Christianity alone toward something more fulfilling.

I would view Christian-Wiccans to be theological cousins of Satanic-Wiccans in that both mix what is initially based on Christian theology...with Wicca.

[skilly-nilly]

Christian Witchery does exist in many forms, the best known are Culdee and Norvicensian. Culdee evolved from the 9th to 12th centuries during the Celtic transition from "Pagan" to "Christian" and kept all the original deities by repackaging them a saints. Norvicensian appeared around 1980 and is inspired by the lives and teachings of three women from the Middle Ages: Brigid of Kildare, Hildegaard of Bingen, and Julian of Norwich. These women were Christians but they were also hedgewitches, and the path they inspired draws heavily from both sources.


The Culdee or Ceile De were NOT Christian Witches, they were a monastic order who retained some pre-Christian traditions. Brighid/St. Brighid was not a hedgewitch, either. Just because She is often associated with magic and healing does not suddenly imply she was a "witch" in modern terms. That's absurd and rather disrespectful.

I'm with Tomas on this--- the big issues in the Culdee/Roman conflict were the nature of sin and the good/badness of earthly pleasure as well as the process of creation. In the era when Ste. Bridget lived, every healer was a 'hedgewitch'. In the absence of manufactured drugs there are only herbals. Ste. Bridget is magical in the sense that she performs miracles, but she was a real person separate from the Goddess Brighid even though modern people conflate them. Yes, many Irish Cat'lics use the saint as a symbol of the Goddess but Ste. Bridget was a Catholic.

When I google 'Norvicensian' nothing much comes up--can you point to any information?




Even though I'm an Eclectic Wiccan I feel that unless you include worship of the Wiccan God and Goddess that you shouldn't really call yourself Wiccan or Christo-Wiccan. You would more properly call yourself a Pagan. And there's nothing wrong with being a Christo-Pagan, as Pagans believe in worship of many different gods, possibly including the Christian trinity.



It is contradictory. While Wicca doesn't necessarily forbid Christianity, Christianity does forbid polytheism, even while Christianity itself is not pure monotheism.

I also agree with this opinion---you could be a Neo-Wiccan and use Jesus as 'the god' but Initiatory Wicca already has its own secret God.

So partly this argument is the old chestnut about defining what 'Wicca' is. But, on the other hand, The Xian God has clearly stated that He is a jealous God and wants His followers to have nothing to do with the Others:

Exodus 20:2–17
2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;
3 you shall have no other gods before me.
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.


Deuteronomy 5:6–21
6 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;
7 you shall have no other gods before me.
8 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me,
10 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

It seems to me that God here is saying that anyone who worships any other 'idol' will have not only themselves but also their great (or great-great) grandchildren punished.

I am not and never have been a Follower of that God, but I find it perplexing. It seems to me that if one believes in Jehovah then one must necessarily believe what He says in the Bible. How can one be a believer in Jehovah but not the one detailed in the Bible? Or one could repudiate the Old Testament and be a follower of Jesus, Who said that only through him could salvation be achieved.

So 'Christo-OtherReligion' seems to be right out.

jmo, ymmv


On the gripping hand, Xianity (viewed from the outside) seems to be a religion largely about redemption and salvation, resulting in Eternal Life in Heaven. This seems to me to be antithetical to most Pagan world-views, BTW Wicca and Neo-Wicca included.

[Simply Puzzled]

That's a good point, but the problem then becomes who are the Wiccan God and Goddess?, the only people who know are those who are initiated, and they're not parting with the secret, so if that's the case then, really the only ones who can call themselves Wiccan are Traditional Wiccans (Gardnerian, Alexandrian, etc).

Exactly! That's why I'm not a Wiccan yet.

[LostSheep]

I think, if you take a literal reading of the Old testament, there are a few stumbling blocks. If, however, you look at the context in which the Old Testament was written(or rather, the books that were assembled into it, over a very long period of time), the jealous monotheistic, monopolistic Yahweh is what the Jewish people wanted their god to be at that time: one that would was looking after them specifically during their time in exile. I personally think that the view of God attributed to Jesus in the New Testament is much more inclusive than that, that sees God - the "Kingdom of God" - as being immanent in the world and not just a remote father figure.

I'll leave discussion of whether or not it's compatible with Wicca to the experts, but i don't personally think that, taking "Christianity" as referring to Jesus, that it need be completely incompatible with a panthestic or panentheistic view, although probably it is with a polytheistic outlook .

Like i said, I'm not talking specifically about Wicca here, but just trying to put the old testament into some sort of context.

[Simply Puzzled]

I apologize for coming in here and stirring the pot. I was just looking for information and figured this was a good place to begin.

This is a great place to begin. Don't worry about stirring the pot here.

[Lunacie]

I'd agree with you and Thomas that Wicca is a priesthood for 2 specific gods, that you need to be initiated into, and that isn't compatiable with Christianity, but I think it's fair to say eclectic Wicca would be compatiable with Christianity (IMO, I think eclectic Wicca and Traditional Wicca are 2 very different things), so in that sense, I see no reason why an eclectic Wiccan couldn't combine Christianity with eclectic Wicca.

Actually I don't see that much difference between honest Eclectic Wicca and Traditional Wicca, however there are some who use the label Electic Wicca that I don't feel should be using it. Honest Eeclectic Wicca isn't like reading a Chinese menu where you take two beliefs from column A and one belief from each of column B and C, mix well and serve. The differences between honest Eclectic Wicca and Traditional Wicca are really not that glaring.
(Just my opinion, a Traditional Wiccan might feel very differently)



That's a good point, but the problem then becomes who are the Wiccan God and Goddess?, the only people who know are those who are initiated, and they're not parting with the secret, so if that's the case then, really the only ones who can call themselves Wiccan are Traditional Wiccans (Gardnerian, Alexandrian, etc).

In the past it was true that one had to be initiated by a Traditional Wiccan coven or HP/S in order to learn the names of the Wiccan god and goddess, but these days you can find that information on the internet quite easily. (Just Google for Gardner's writings.) And you might be surprised at how many Eclectic groups do initiations and reveal the mysteries to their members.


Exactly! That's why I'm not a Wiccan yet.

Don't all religions follow a specific God? Of course Wicca has it's own Gods that are specific to Wicca. And I believe that like most religions, one must go through a ritual of some sorts (such as an initiation or a baptism) in order to be considered a follower of that religion by the rest of those who follow that religion. If you don't want to be a Traditional Wiccan, feel free to learn as much as you can about Wicca and about being an Eclectic Wiccan. So what if the Traditionalists don't accept your claim to the label? Unless you're fellowshipping with them, what difference does their opinion make?


To get back on topic (sorry for the diversion), I don't think Wicca and Christianity mix very well or very easily, but some have apparently done the hard work and study and feel they can honestly call themselves Christo-Wiccan, and I'm not going to argue with them because it doesn't hurt me in any way if they choose to claim that label.

[David19]

In the past it was true that one had to be initiated by a Traditional Wiccan coven or HP/S in order to learn the names of the Wiccan god and goddess, but these days you can find that information on the internet quite easily. (Just Google for Gardner's writings.) And you might be surprised at how many Eclectic groups do initiations and reveal the mysteries to their members.

I didn't think Gardner actually named his gods (I thought he actually took the oaths seriously, afterall Gardnerian Wicca is his baby). Plus, you can never really be sure what is published on the internet is what Traditional Wiccan's actually do, so even if someone says Traditional Wiccans worship Diana and Pan, for example (I'm just using their names, I don't know if people say that's the gods of the Wica), doesn't make it true.


Don't all religions follow a specific God? Of course Wicca has it's own Gods that are specific to Wicca. And I believe that like most religions, one must go through a ritual of some sorts (such as an initiation or a baptism) in order to be considered a follower of that religion by the rest of those who follow that religion. If you don't want to be a Traditional Wiccan, feel free to learn as much as you can about Wicca and about being an Eclectic Wiccan. So what if the Traditionalists don't accept your claim to the label? Unless you're fellowshipping with them, what difference does their opinion make?

But, if you don't get initiated, you'll never know the names of the Gods of the Wica, and can't really develop a close relationship with them (afterall, you'd just be calling them 'Goddess and God' without their proper, real names), so, IMO only, I think different Eclectic Wiccans would probably worship different deities from Traditional Wiccans.

But, this just comes from my own opinion and what I've read, heard and observed from other Traditional Wiccans.

[Twinkle]

I strongly disagree. Wicca has specific gods whose names are oathbound. When talking about them to cowans, Wiccans had to use titles, and when those cowans decided they could be Wiccans without undergoing the initiation and learning the names, they had to resort to either using the titles, making up their own names (usually borrowing them from other deities) or trusting the word of oathbreakers as to what were the secret names.



Hedgewitchery is completely separate from the priesthood of Wicca, and I was careful to distinguish Wicca from Witchcraft.



Firstly, don't switch words on me. We are talking about Christianity and Wicca, not Christianity and Witchcraft. Secondly, of course Christianity is influenced by Paganism (no Christian would have ever come up with hauling a tree into the house in the middle of winter) and vis-versa. But we aren't talking about paganism, we are talking about a specific priesthood. And you can't simply drop Jesus' name in the middle of a Wiccan ritual anymore than a Catholic priest can drop Isis' name in the middle of a mass (well, not without losing his church). If you take elements from Wicca, that's great, be honest: "I'm a Christian that is deeply influenced by the practices of Wiccans." If you create something new say so. There is no shame in creating something new, and there is no need to validate your own religion by claiming membership in one you have long since abandoned. You'll gain a lot more respect for it than you ever will by going around claiming to be a Christian Wiccan.



I think the issue here is not validity but intellectual honestly. Reducing Wicca down to a generic ritual format to worship any random god, along with some vague idea of karma and reincarnation is not fair to the religion. If there is beauty in disrespecting two religions this way, I have yet to find it. Me, I'll take the beauty of an Anglican mass that is part of a tradition stretching back hundreds of years over calling Jesus and the four quarters. That's just me though.


Thank the gods. I thought I was alone.

[Terra Mater]

This is so silly, one Neopagan path saying another group cannot be part of the path's family. How very close minded and bigoted of some of you.

Wicca is such a new and constantly reinvented series of Pagan variants that contrary to populary opinion, you can blend anything with Wicca.

Now as to the "deeply secret only taught to initiates" Wicca these folks keep referring to, is this the same one Gardner created that has 161 laws including the ones about not talking openly about your path with those not of your path?

If that is the one you are referring to, then what are you doing talking about it with me? I am not a Wiccan at all. I am a self aware goddess and in my universe all Wiccans are equal so :p

[Nox_Mortus]

This is so silly, one Neopagan path saying another group cannot be part of the path's family. How very close minded and bigoted of some of you. [quote]

How is trying to preserve the spiritual and intellectual integrity of ones religion bigoted? The idea of of Christian Wicca damages the integrity of both Wicca and Christianity.

[quote]
Wicca is such a new and constantly reinvented series of Pagan variants that contrary to populary opinion, you can blend anything with Wicca.

No you can't, Wicca has a lot more leeway in this regard than many other religions, but there are many religious beliefs and philosophies that it is incompatible with.


Now as to the "deeply secret only taught to initiates" Wicca these folks keep referring to, is this the same one Gardner created that has 161 laws including the ones about not talking openly about your path with those not of your path?

Yes, but the rules generally aren't interpreted is being that strict, especially now that a good bit of that information is publicly available anyway.

[Lunacie]

How is trying to preserve the spiritual and intellectual integrity of ones religion bigoted? The idea of of Christian Wicca damages the integrity of both Wicca and Christianity.

Excellent question.



No you can't, Wicca has a lot more leeway in this regard than many other religions, but there are many religious beliefs and philosophies that it is incompatible with.


Unfortunately a lot of authors and web page writers have shoved this idea into print (that you can mix a whole bunch of different things and still call it "Wicca") but that don't make it true.



Yes, but the rules generally aren't interpreted is being that strict, especially now that a good bit of that information is publicly available anyway.

The dogma of the Wiccan religion isn't the "secret mystery" part. Most all of that is easily available these days. It's the way the mysteries themselves are revealed though personal gnosis under the leadership of a skilled teacher.

That idea is not unique to Wicca, but the way the package is put together is unique to Wicca, and bringing in other things and changing the core makes it something that's not Wicca any longer.