Losing Faith...

[Libris]

OK, lately honestly I've been having a lot of trouble well... believing. I haven't ever experienced the mind blowing experiences many on this board have had- seeing ghosts, auras, working instant and visible magic. Things I've seen and done can easily be explained by coincidence, tricks of the light or my will to experience something, anything magical.

I'm a biologist, I'm an evolutionary biologist. I spent ten years studying evolution, not just studying evolution but experimenting with evolution. I still study evolution, just not as a vocation. This study has led me to conclude that deity had no role in creating or guiding the evolution of life as we know it. I've always been fine with this and kind of parceled it away from my faith. I've even managed to be an ADF reconstructionist, not just believing in Gods and Goddesses, but identifying them as personal, involved.

But now, I'm thinking that if Gods and Goddesses weren't involved in the creation of the universe and life, then what are they? Where did they come from? What's their purpose? Why are they interested in us? Maybe they're just some other form of life we don't understand, but then where did THEY come from? What did they evolve from? Are they aliens?

I can't do a spell without feeling silly, I can't do ritual without laughing at myself. Really, anymore all of this seems foolish to me. It used to feel empowering, beautiful, connective, now it just feels really silly.

I read my old pagan books, and now it seems like all those visualization exercises are just really training the mind to see things that aren't there. I feel like if you practice seeing ghosts enough, eventually, you're going to see a ghost whether it is there or not.

And I don't want someone to hop on this thread and explain it all away for me, that's not what I'm asking here. If I can't find the way back myself, no one is going to find it for me.

Honestly, I'd really like to know if anyone else here has ever felt this way? Did you experience some *aha* moment that made you regain your faith? Or once lost, is it lost for good? I know some of you are going to say "Faith is beyond reason" but if that were true then people would still believe that the Earth was the center of the universe. Faith and reason, for me at least, must coincide in some harmony at least.

I feel so sad. Summerland, reincarnation, the more I think about these things, the less sense they make. If I tried to explain what I believe to anyone, I'd utterly fail because apparently even I don't understand it.

I feel like I'm impaled on Occam's Razor :sadman:


ETA: And please (pretty pretty please), let's not turn this into an evolution vs. creation thread. There are soooo soooo sooo many of those already. I just really want to know if people here have experienced this doubt before, and if so, how they dealt with it.

[Tullip Troll]

not everyone is into having super powers or seeing the unexplained.

Spirituality is a relationship with something or somethings that are felt, so to test this go somewhere w0nderful, for me my fastest location is the woods behind my house. Go into the woods and sit or lie somewhere quiet and then see what you feel, have a conversation with spirit even if at first you feel like your talking to yourself. See how you feel. Try not to logic everything away.

For most people spirit is a quiet peaceful thing no light show, no miricles, just a knowing that there is a presence. When you have that knowing thats your faith, faith that there is more to the naked eye, more then what numbers can tell you. Faith that something else is there and your both aware of each other.

Yes some are lucky to have super natural experiences(makes it easier to believe), and I even think some are illusion based on peoples over whelming desire for something great to happen. Some are very very real, but they don't happen everyday.

Quantum physics is science and it supports magic.

[childofbast]

I had a sort of crisis after practicing Wicca for a year or so. I started to really dig into its history and the history of other cultures and I experienced a time in which I no longer took Wicca seriously. At the time, I didn't realize there were other paths. I didn't know about ADF, I didn't know about reconstructionism. Finding these paths eventually helped me. I no longer felt like a wandering soul without any direction. Not that I think you *need* a specific path for direction, but I found a home where I felt understood and welcomed. I found a path that really made sense to me.

But before that, I was really lost feeling.

Now, I know you don't want this to turn into a discussion on evolution, but I will say that I'm not a scientist. I've taken the required biology classes in college, and they've always reaffirmed my belief in Gods. I've never delved into evolution much, but to me I don't see why any type of Paganism and evolution can't coexist. But that's from my perspective as someone who hasn't studied genetics, evolution, etc in depth. Maybe that's why I'm not as...conflicted, I guess? But I know that people like Einstein said that the more they learned about the universe, the more their beliefs in a particular deity were reaffirmed. But that's them and you're, well, you!

I hope you're able to find your way, whether it's on a Pagan path or not. One thing is for certain to me - you're very brave to talk about your feelings.

[childofbast]

Oh, and I totally agree with Tullip Troll. Nice reply. :)

[EJ1096]

yup I have felt the same way. I too have had no mind blowing experiances. Nothing seen. No booming voice from beyond. For me it's frustrtating as well.

I'm still trying to find what I belive. One day I was thinking about Thor being responsible for spring rains (thats what my ancestor belived) I was having difficulty with this because I know how rain is formed and why it falls. I know that water evaporates goes into the atmosphere collects on a dust particle then continues to collect other water particles until it is too heavy for the convection with in the cloud to carry it. and it falls. I know this. my ancestors didn't, so they needed to find a way to explain this.

Then I thought....What if.... the energy of another being was the reason that the water particles gathered around the dust particle. they could just as easily not attatch and then there would be no rain.

I don't know if this helped at all. Like I said I too am trying to figure things out. But maybe the "dieties" work on such a small level with the impact of their actions being on a much bigger level. we look for them on the level of their impact. not their actions. (I have no Idea if that made any sense)

[Libris]

Thanks guys, you're helping a lot.

It isn't so much that I think evolution and paganism aren't compatible, just that my studies in evolution lead me to conclude that if there are Gods they had no role in creating or directing the course of biological evolution. I'm sure other people could study evolution as much or more than I have and possibly come up with a different conclusion. But for me, this is where I'm at.

But, it really really helps to know that others have experienced the same thing. I'll try to go some place quite and meditate for a while. I think that would help a lot too.

[Merrilyn]

There are plenty of folks here who feel the way you do, including myself, without any shame. Check out the non-theistic section. :)

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I think perhaps I can relate to what your saying on many levels. In all my occupations scientific analysis of results and actions has been of paramount concern. In communications its always been the .005 percent error rate on anything we did or measured.

It makes for a difficult line to walk at times. On one hand I look at a rock and know the geological actions that have or could take place beneath, within or upon the Earths crust and understand the results. In each instance the probability factor could pretty much be assured to its area of affect or impact.

The scope of it such that it made it pretty hard at times to recognize the possibility of a "God" "Goddess" figure being involved in any facet of the design. From a pure logical concept (as I understand the term) the existance of such can not be quantified. Makes it real hard to believe in something that your "inner self" tries to prove via test and analysis.

Yet over time I also realized that thier are points of unanticipated jump in design or evalution. Things that logically should be construced as mistakes or failures but have a global impact on things. For instance that man survived the black plague of the dark ages, is it from a gods / goddess intervention of simple genetic mutation? My study says a genetic mutation that enabled a certain strain to survive while the other died out.

Did it happen from devine intervention? Perhaps or perhaps just a gene sequence that developed. Yet then I look upon the concept of modern man versus the primitive aboriginal. To them we may appear "Godlike" in their presence. So in that capacity it sort of leveled that divinity may take many levels and apperances.

That devinity may be nothing more than one stage of development versus another does not for me remove that something or someone inspired me to a new level and established the though train that something more could and probally did exist. It was in this understanding that I realized and came to accept that "God" and "Goddess" maybe more spiritual in nature and inspiraiton than a physical presence.

I also realized that my own development as a creature will over time raise some abilities and loose others. The change of these abilites may well be the source of "Powers" we ascribe to devinity.

I also realized from a scientific study facet I may manipulate the conditions, the materials, the results, the outcome, etc but thier is always a standofish facet as well. That I may remove a single rock from the pond and allow the results to grow for a certain duration resembles what a "God" or "Goddess" may do as they impact upon me globally yet still leave enough chance and free will to see what I will do under the conditions established.

That I maybe in a position to see the initial hand of action maybe possible. That I recognize the hand is a different matter in the recognizaiton of what it was that happened. Yet regardless of my position in relationship to the hand, the hand did change the conditions of the experement.

I hope this answered your questions. it seems detailed yet vague to me from what I wanted to write but at the same time the rock is changd just a bit and now it falls to the occupants to react to the rock change.

[teishabee]

From the general point of my own. I have also had crisis of faith, this didnt stem from such complex thoughts as yourself but just simply I am caught between the material world and that of spiritual.

Probably a rather simplified version. I not being as intelligent as yourself or the others that had posted on this thread but one thing I do know is I think too much.

Its always been a personal rock around my neck. I think its sometimes in peoples nature to over complicate things.

I see maybe a sense of guilt? The nervous laughter and the sense of its all too silly. Do yo feel just because society says religion/faith and science cant go together, that you personally cant have this view.

Im not saying this is the case, just throwing some more thoughts in the air.

Not having studied science is advanced forms. My studies dont go further then college. I always think what if were wrong. Each century/ era thinks there correct about things. Technology like humans is always evolving and discovering new things, correcting old ways. What we see as current science wont be the same in 5 years never mind 5 hundred years.

I suppose this gives me peace of mind, that as much as I can doubt my faith. I can also doubt so called scientific fact. As history tells me much as we learn that people were wrong for thinking the gods did everything. We have also advanced in science too, (to apply a personal reference ) that abestos is dangerous and not such a useful material as previous thought.

In previous times I am lead to believe about the alchemist. Not only one who was looking for the elixir of life but of a person who combined faith and science. Maybe it was just a metathor and the elixir of ethernal youth is just to keep our faith alive is what ever means we have possible.

For me maybe science isnt all the be all and end all. That mystery is needed in my life. Maybe one day when it is all explained away and we know how everything works we wont have to believe in gods and goddess's but personally Im hoping that day never comes.

[cheddarsox]

Yes, I've had that same crisis. And I was sad, because I thought there would be nothing to fill that "hole" left behind by the death of the supernatural. But I was wrong.

I am a scientist too, and my studies just led me to greater awe at what is, at the nature of things. No supernatural beings needed, there is plenty of awe, mystery, connectedness in nature.

I identify as a pantheist. I have rituals and holidays because they are good for my spirituality. They are ways for me to express myself, to set aside time for spiritual work (though I don't believe in a soul seperate from the body, the soul, imo, is a function of the mind, but it still thrives with tending)

I am way more sane and happy than I used to be trying to "see" evidence of supernatural, etc.

I don't know if those things exist and I just happen to be blind to them or what, but I do know that pantheism works for me.

cheddar

[Windsmith]

I don't have a lot to add that cheddarsox hasn't just said, and quite beautifully. But I went through much the same thing. It was sad. Reincarnation, fairies, the Summerland - they were all so beautiful, and honestly there are days when I wish I could still believe in them.

But what I found instead (I'm also a pantheist) is beautiful, too. More so, because I can see it. Smell it. Touch it. It finally gives me what I hadn't realized I'd been searching for in a religion all along: a way to become more connected with the world I live in and to be a better person in that world - not a fantasy to disconnect me from my life and this place.

As mentioned, the non-theists and the pantheists each have our own forums here. I invite you to come hang out with us for a while and see if anything there strikes a chord with you. One door may be closing for you, but there may be another one you can open up and step through.

[wolfjan1]

My mind blowing experiences are no longer mind blowing. I tend to just fee sone around me, usually a loved one, in ways that they knew only I would understand.
My belief in the Mother Earth, Gaia, evolved when I began taking pictures of natural things.
It's really a personal thing. Like prayers, there is a small group who sends energy to those in need. And to each other. Like a prayer ring, if you wish, but also just energy. For healing, for comfort for aid. I feel very close to this group.
What you believe is your own choice. But there are a lot of smart and intuitive people here, defiitely more than myself.
Bless you and may you findr answers.

[BlackLili]

I have had this issue going back and forth in my head for a long time, too.

It is hard to be well-educated, skeptical, and informed and still believe in magick and deities. Our logic argues against it.

Funny you should mention Occam's Razor - I've had that as my screensaver for a long time in my library that holds my altar. It dichotomy hasn't been lost on me, either. ;)

For me, I started doing heavier research into cultures that made no distinction between their daily lives and their religion or magickwork. For many belief systems, the day-to-day survival was so great that there was no questioning of Are there Really Gods Listening To Me? or Does This Really Work? The magick is performed because the belief is there 100%, an unquestioning belief.

This made me think of how I grew up, and things I could do. I'm not even talking about magick; a mundane example would be my ability to play pool or snooker. When I was 18, I started learning to play pool for the first time when I went off to college. Two girlfriends I made already knew how to play and were both relatively good - I expected them to be much better than me. After I got into my rhythm though, I found I was making shots that not only my more-experienced friends couldn't make, but I was making shots that the pool sharks at the hall weren't making! (Behind the back, across the table, bad angles, etc) The part that frustrated my girlfriends most though, was the fact that I was NOT paying attention when I made my best shots. We'd have the jukebox blasting behind us, I'd have a cigarette dangling from my mouth, smoke in my eyes, and talking to someone standing behind me, walk up, aim the shot for less than a second, and sink it. Drove my one friend up the damn wall!!! She used to make fun of me for it, closing her eyes and shooting as wildly as she could, telling everyone she was imitating my technique. Even funnier was when I tried to concentrate on what I was doing. You'd think I would have gotten better, yes? HAH! Talk about scratch! I would hit that cueball off the table, across the pool hall, out the door some nights!

What this tangent of a story taught me was that, for me, magick and faith is like pool. When I search too hard and think about it too long, I get tense, I get nervous, I get stagefright, gunshy, and generally things don't make sense or work.

I'm not saying concentration, focus, and analytical thinking are by any means bad. I consider myself an anthropologist, and hold a sharp mind in the highest regard. All I know is, for me, when I finally let go and just let things I don't understand work with me and through me, I found that there was a connection to something I cannot name, and that connection is available to me intuitively, though maybe not always consciously. In my mind, the Gods tend to respond better when I don't question their existence. ;)

I still have a long way to go on my own path, and I don't know if this helped you at all, but that's how I figure my faith when I'm having a "What does it all mean" kinda day.

Good luck,
Beannachtai,
BlackLili

[lizea]

Actually, I have those feelings all the time. I went "religion jumping" (my sisters phrase for it...) for about a year and a half trying to find something that made sense to me. And whenever I did find something, after less than a month I was having a little voice in my head say "This isn't right... nope, not for you" And I would sometimes try to make it work, but it never did... I just lost it and I had the feeling that knowing what I do (which quite honestly is pretty limited... but I read a lot and especially when I am really interested...) about the topic and life in general, it didn't make sense, plain and simple...

Then after I found my current path (I'm a pantheist just so you know) it all made sense, more than ever before. And I thought I had finally found it and wouldn't leave it for anything in the world, and it would always be right for me. But then last night I had a dream about my best friend up until last year (he commited suicide last fall...) and it was like, eye opening... or vision clouding... I don't know, I am really confused. I don't know if he was trying to tell me something, or if it was my subconcous trying to tell me something, or what. But basically what I got out of it was that I was doing something terribly wrong, and it would matter in the end... actually, he wrote me a letter and left it on my pillow and it said "Something is wrong... you aren't doing it right anymore. You have to fix it, it is going to make a difference in the end..." And I don't know what it was refering to, but something tells me it is to do with my faith. He is the only person I ever confided my darkest deepest secrets to, and he knew everything about me. He was always supportive of me and never let me do something too stupid, and while I was religion hopping, he was always there with me helping me decifer what everything meant...

I don't know what that means, but because of that dream I have been thinking all today about what I am doing here. I don't know if it is right, and I never thought it would matter in the end, but it seems like someone who has already died (for more than 24 seconds) would know... I don't know. I am going to reopen my mind and start picking appart the pieces of everything I have been doing lately and find out what I have been doing wrong. I don't know though, because I thought this religion was right for me, and it still seems pretty right, even though there are things in my mind (that were always there, they are just talking louder since the dream) that are saying there might be something more right... I don't know, I might not have a religion when this spirit search is over, but whatever...

Anyways, if you actually read that novel, the point is, no you aren't alone. I think everyone questions their faith, and I think it is a good idea, because if you don't, you will become a mindless following sheep... and noone wants that...

[Artiste-LiLi]

Yeah, I'm right there with ya....and I was raised in a "Witchy Family"...but for us it wasn't really a "religion"..it was "just the way things are done". I've seen stuff (ghosts, etc), I "know" things and I "feel" things; but for me, that has nothing to do with deity, gods, goddesses or religion.........it just "is". When I try to do things like pray or do a "ritual" with a religious "feel" to it, I just feel stupid and question the reality of it.

[Philosophia]

I understand what you are going through because I'm the same way. I used to view the "supernatural" as something that is separate to the rest of the world. Science is an absolute love for me but I've come to realize that it doesn't answer all of the questions that this world presents.

However, I believe that the supernatural is simply a part of the natural world and it shouldn't really be separated from it. So, while ghosts are seen as something "supernatural", I see them as mere imprints of energy that we create during our lives. They are apart of the mystery, awe, and beauty that is nature itself.

Deities, though, are another matter. I have a feeling a may be disliked for saying my beliefs but I don't see the deities as anything more then representations of energy that surrounds and connects us everyday. They are what we interpret the energy to be.

Anyway, your not alone in your wanderings and thoughts. :hugz:

[Libris]

Oh, guys! Thank you so much for this. I could honestly cry reading your responses. Just knowing that other people have experienced this same means so much, just having a place to talk with like minded people helps immensely.

I sat underneath my favorite Oak tree yesterday. Sitting, listening- just being. And though I didn't hear anything, no mystical conversation with the tree, I felt a buzz all around me. I've always felt this hum - it's the cycle of life, nutrients- the flow of energy though the system. I realized that it doesn't matter if there are Gods or Goddesses or if we were created or directed, my practice has always celebrated the flow of life and the turning of seasons. And that I can feel.

Even though I know how the oak grows from an acorn to a tall tree, the miracle of this process is not diminished. I don't have to worry about the existence of individual Gods. If they want to make themselves known to me, they will. Until then, I worship the divinity of nature itself.


Thanks so much guys, walking this path would be much harder without your help!

Jessica

[lizea]

Wait, you're telling me acorns come from oak trees?! Woah! I honestly didn't know that before... ho dang...

[gillian_greenleaf]

Thank you for starting this thread. It's good to know that others have the same doubts. I'm a scientist also, and I face many of your same concerns. I'm trying to be comfortable with the doubting, though, because many of those who don't doubt don't every really think about what they believe. They're often on automatic pilot, mouthing words and engaging in ritual without meaning. I wonder sometimes if we will ever be able to really understand. Whatever the power(s) is/are, aren't they way beyond our ability to comprehend them? As Philosopia said, they may not be "anything more then representations of energy that surrounds and connects us everyday." I'm OK with that. I don't understand how it all works; I hope I don't ever need to.

[BlackLili]

I know I already posted one response, but thinking about this over the weekend, one of my favorite quotes came to me;


"There's more to the heavens and the Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies." - W.S., "Hamlet" Act I, Sc. V

An Universal Truth to ponder when the doubts get loud.

Many good wishes,
BL

[SweetIsTheTruth]

But now, I'm thinking that if Gods and Goddesses weren't involved in the creation of the universe and life, then what are they? Where did they come from? What's their purpose? Why are they interested in us? Maybe they're just some other form of life we don't understand, but then where did THEY come from? What did they evolve from? Are they aliens?

As a scientist, I am sure you can appreciate the fact that other scientists (http://www.sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=434D7C62-E7F2-99DF-37CC9814533B90D7) are answering, at least some of these questions, even as we post;

"By strengthening the connection between the temporal lobe and these emotional centers, epileptic electrical activity may spark religious feeling.

To seal the case for the temporal lobe’s involvement, Michael Persinger of Laurentian University in Ontario sought to artificially re-create religious feelings by electrically stimulating that large subdivision of the brain. So Persinger created the “God helmet,” which generates weak electromagnetic fields and focuses them on particular regions of the brain’s surface.

In a series of studies conducted over the past several decades, Persinger and his team have trained their device on the temporal lobes of hundreds of people. In doing so, the researchers induced in most of them the experience of a sensed presence—a feeling that someone (or a spirit) is in the room when no one, in fact, is—or of a profound state of cosmic bliss that reveals a universal truth. During the three-minute bursts of stimulation, the affected subjects translated this perception of the divine into their own cultural and religious language—terming it God, Buddha, a benevolent presence or the wonder of the universe."

[SweetIsTheTruth]

I can't do a spell without feeling silly, I can't do ritual without laughing at myself. Really, anymore all of this seems foolish to me. It used to feel empowering, beautiful, connective, now it just feels really silly.

Maybe a change in definition is in order? I define magick as the programming of both the conscious and subconscious parts of the mind (to work in unison) to acheive a desired result. Oddly enough, it dovetails quite nicely with what some psychologists have been saying for years.



I read my old pagan books, and now it seems like all those visualization exercises are just really training the mind to see things that aren't there.

For me, if I visualize myself as holding hands full of money, as an example, I tend to create, discover and find new sources of income as a result, in my daily waking life.



I feel like if you practice seeing ghosts enough, eventually, you're going to see a ghost whether it is there or not.

I fully agree. Our minds are quite powerful. I care not whether such a ghost is objectively real or not, but would care greatly about what type of information might be communicated through such a relationship. If the ghost is fully created and exists solely in the conscious and subconscious mind, then it could serve to open up a channel where I might gain greater knowledge of the contents of my mind. I am not saying any of the above is true. I am saying if the above were true and information could be gained from it, I might find value in it.



If I can't find the way back myself, no one is going to find it for me.

If that which you seek you find not within yourself and whatnot........



Honestly, I'd really like to know if anyone else here has ever felt this way?

I shift in and out of the atheist mindset often. Gods and Goddesses are often seen as projections of my own subconscious. Real or not, I find the divine principles we call Gods and Goddesses to be useful.



Did you experience some *aha* moment that made you regain your faith? Or once lost, is it lost for good?

Oh for me, I'd say belief in the objective reality of deities is pretty much gone at this point. From a subjective standpoint they are very much alive and well, however.



I know some of you are going to say "Faith is beyond reason"

Oh I believe if we truly understand the nature of the conscious and the subconscious minds, the reasoning becomes quite clear. Were I to start praying & making offerings to Artemis, no doubt I would begin to experience some sort of response. My mind would rise to the occasion by meeting my expectation of a response. The same would be true were I to pray and make offerings to the Keebler elves. Have you ever noticed how abused spouses often go from one relationship to the next, and the one common thread amongst all the partners is they are all abusive? I find it rather odd, yet quite comforting, to know our minds have the ability to guide us to find exactly what we expect to find in many cases.



Faith and reason, for me at least, must coincide in some harmony at least.

I think I have abandoned faith in favor of reason and the reasoning is all psychological.



I feel so sad. Summerland, reincarnation, the more I think about these things, the less sense they make.

It makes perfect sense to me. What's man's greatest fear? Fear of death. Therefore, man creates an afterlife to fool himself into believing he will escape death.



I just really want to know if people here have experienced this doubt before, and if so, how they dealt with it.

It should be clear I have pretty much made peace with much of it.

[Novembers River]

Oh, guys! Thank you so much for this. I could honestly cry reading your responses. Just knowing that other people have experienced this same means so much, just having a place to talk with like minded people helps immensely.

I sat underneath my favorite Oak tree yesterday. Sitting, listening- just being. And though I didn't hear anything, no mystical conversation with the tree, I felt a buzz all around me. I've always felt this hum - it's the cycle of life, nutrients- the flow of energy though the system. I realized that it doesn't matter if there are Gods or Goddesses or if we were created or directed, my practice has always celebrated the flow of life and the turning of seasons. And that I can feel.

Even though I know how the oak grows from an acorn to a tall tree, the miracle of this process is not diminished. I don't have to worry about the existence of individual Gods. If they want to make themselves known to me, they will. Until then, I worship the divinity of nature itself.


Thanks so much guys, walking this path would be much harder without your help!

Jessica

There you go. That is your faith. In fact, from my perspective, you aren't losing faith at all. On the contrary you are finding your faith by riding the rollercoaster that comes with doing so.

Like the others here, I also had a very hard time finding my place. It took over 10 years to finally, honestly, come to terms with my beliefs and that who I wanted to be God/Goddess simply didn't coincide with my beliefs.

God/Goddess is not separate from us. God/Goddess is us, within us, around us.

I wanted magic, ritual, super-natural, but in its place I found the beauty, harmony and mystery that is life itself.

I finally accepted Pantheism and Modern Deism as my path about 3 years ago. There are always those Gods and Goddesses that touch my heart (Krishna for example) but deep down I know that even they are simply part of the whole that is nature, that is God.

Do not worry, this turmoil is only bringing you closer to you.

[womanwarrior]

I've never had a personal "aha" moment. Religion has always been a search for me...a strech to the stars.

I'm a raised Catholic, but abandoned that path a while ago. Still, somedays I feel a longing for the beauty of it, the pure and simple belief that a guy coming down to die would save the whole of humanity. Others, I feel the absolute wrongness of that idea, and the intrinsic mistakes that would come from believing something like that.

So, no...no aha moment here. I guess you could say I'm a bit like you...and losing faith.