Various Hellenismos Related Questions

[Agaliha]

So, uh :2G: ...been doing some research and I've had some questions that weren't exactly answered at various Hellenismos sites so I thought I'd ask them here...for clarification and understanding. Since many Hellenic gods have been coming to me in my dreams and random signs I figured I should learn about the path...

Most of these came from reading: Sannion's Sanctuary (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkwPxpwpH2CgBo2RXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTExZWpwZHBqBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkAwRsA1dTMQ--/SIG=11ofcua8n/EXP=1191967089/**http%3a//www.winterscapes.com/sannion/). Specifically:
Sannion's Guide to Getting Started in Hellenismos (http://www.winterscapes.com/sannion/getting_started.htm) & Sannion's Guide to Ritual Etiquette (http://www.winterscapes.com/sannion/etiquette.htm)

1. Do the rules of miasma apply to personal meditation, offerings and communion with the gods or just festivals?
2. Miasma involves open cuts and sores...would this include menstruation? (Kemetic Orthodoxy has that view). Should one not go to their altar, offer, etc during that time?
3. How do pets fit into miasma (speaking more so of personal worship than communal)? For many pets can't be avoided, so...?
4. What are some real life examples of hubris, what exactly makes something or someone hubris? (I know of the mythic example of Arache and Athena, but not any real life modern examples)
5. Fumigation seems to be a noted step in worship, what about those that can't have incense or scents for health reasons (severe allergies, etc)? Can that step be skipped? What could go in it's place?
6. I've read that it's a very bad idea to resist the call of a deity, what happens if you do and what if it's a deity you aren't exactly drawn to or perhaps like?

That's it for now, I'm sure as I read more I'll have more questions. I'll post them later.

[Fiamma]

So, uh :2G: ...been doing some research and I've had some questions that weren't exactly answered at various Hellenismos sites so I thought I'd ask them here...for clarification and understanding. Since many Hellenic gods have been coming to me in my dreams and random signs I figured I should learn about the path...


Most of these came from reading: Sannion's Sanctuary (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkwPxpwpH2CgBo2RXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTExZWpwZHBqBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkAwRsA1dTMQ--/SIG=11ofcua8n/EXP=1191967089/**http%3a//www.winterscapes.com/sannion/). Specifically:
Sannion's Guide to Getting Started in Hellenismos (http://www.winterscapes.com/sannion/getting_started.htm) & Sannion's Guide to Ritual Etiquette (http://www.winterscapes.com/sannion/etiquette.htm)

1. Do the rules of miasma apply to personal meditation, offerings and communion with the gods or just festivals?
2. Miasma involves open cuts and sores...would this include menstruation? (Kemetic Orthodoxy has that view). Should one not go to their altar, offer, etc during that time?
3. How do pets fit into miasma (speaking more so of personal worship than communal)? For many pets can't be avoided, so...?
4. What are some real life examples of hubris, what exactly makes something or someone hubris? (I know of the mythic example of Arache and Athena, but not any real life modern examples)
5. Fumigation seems to be a noted step in worship, what about those that can't have incense or scents for health reasons (severe allergies, etc)? Can that step be skipped? What could go in it's place?
6. I've read that it's a very bad idea to resist the call of a deity, what happens if you do and what if it's a deity for aren't exactly drawn to you perhaps like?

That's it for now, I'm sure as I read more I'll have more questions. I'll post them later.

I'll answer as many as I can as best as I can:

1. Good question. The thing about Hellenic reconstruction and the vast wealth of information that is available...most of it is big group/community ritual and celebration. Practically none exists on personal practice. Many folks theorize that it wasn't written about because it would have been like writing a book on modern life and detailing the minutiae of waking up, putting on your slippers, walking to the bathroom, grabbing the toothpaste and putting it on your brush, turning on the faucet and wetting it...you get the idea.

So as far as I know, no one is really sure. (If anyone knows and has references, I'd be very interested in seeing!) many folks just scale down group practice for their personal practice.

2. I have never heard of such a thing. At all.

3. Ditto.

4. Excessive or exaggerated pride and arrogance is the basic idea.

5. Don't risk your health. I understand wanting to be as authentic as possible but If you can't use incense, are you able to use perhaps a few drops of essential oil with water in a diffuser? Or instead of incense, could you have a bit of the item (a few leaves or branches of the specified herb, or a few bits of the resin of it's something like frankincense) in a dish but not burning?

6. Depends on you and the deity. For the most part, it seems that if they really want your attention, they'll find a way to get it. Some are more patient, others are more drastic. I've never heard of one just giving up and going away, but I don't know, it might happen.

and what if it's a deity for aren't exactly drawn to you perhaps like?

could you please clarify this part of the question?

[Agaliha]

Thanks Fiamma! That cleared many things up. :)


could you please clarify this part of the question?

There was a typo. I meant if they're called by a deity you aren't really drawn to youself.

Um, to use something more personal with me. Zeus. I know I have preconcieved views of him that aren't really fair (which is why I'm trying to be open and not let them cloud my feeling and judgement. I'm doing reseaching and learning more about him, too). I'm not saying he called me, but I have had some weird dreams with him in them (see here (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=3287085&postcount=11)), I was just wondering what would happen if one, like myself were to not answer the call if he called me. Would that be hubris? Would I be struck with a lightening bolt? (I think if he did call me and I was sure it was a call, I would answer it--the question is more for curiosity).

I'm just wondering how those that follow Hellenismos (and influenced paths) deal with deities they're not warm and fuzzy about (and I know, from reading posts here and other forums that there are deities people aren't warm and fuzzy about).

[Fiamma]

Thanks Fiamma! That cleared many things up. :)


There was a typo. I meant if they're called by a deity you aren't really drawn to youself.

Um, to use something more personal with me. Zeus. I know I have preconcieved views of him that aren't really fair (which is why I'm trying to be open and not let them cloud my feeling and judgement. I'm doing reseaching and learning more about him, too). I'm not saying he called me, but I have had some weird dreams with him in them (see here (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=3287085&postcount=11)), I was just wondering what would happen if one, like myself were to not answer the call if he called me. Would that be hubris? Would I be struck with a lightening bolt? (I think if he did call me and I was sure it was a call, I would answer it--the question is more for curiosity).

I'm just wondering how those that follow Hellenismos (and influenced paths) deal with deities they're not warm and fuzzy about (and I know, from reading posts here and other forums that there are deities people aren't warm and fuzzy about).

Well, it may help to keep in mind that the deities as depicted in myth weren't exactly the deities as they were worshiped in religious cult. Many of the traits that we see as negative were extremely exaggerated for any number of reasons.

I don't know what it is that turns you off about Zeus, but if it is, for example, that he is frequently thought of as being oppressive towards women, it would probably be worth it to you to examine his cult as related to that of Hera. She had the much older temple at Olympus, where he stood as her consort. He is referred to in certain contexts as the husband or consort of Hera (Conveniently, I was jsut reading a bunch of this earlier today in the book Greek Religion by Walter Burkert, if you haven't seen it yet, it's highly recommended.)

Also...just because a deity is trying to get your attention it doesn't mean that they want to lay claim on you for life. Sometimes it happens, they come, they're there for a while, they have something to teach you and they go. I had for some months in late 2005/early 2006, a very strong presence of Selene in my life. And then she was gone. I get the impression that she's still peeking in from time to time, but not really holding much influence. Before Apollo came and made it very clear that he was here to stay, there was Artemis who was a very strong presence in my life for several years before she was gone...and I do mean gone. I haven't even gotten the vaguest impression of her since.

There's also another possibility- this I have a decent bit of personal experience with- sometimes the deities get your attention so that they can use you to get that of someone else who is completely clueless, not paying attention or resisting their advances.

It's good that you're trying to keep an open mind and not just write off something that you're not comfortable with because of personal prejudices. I think the best thing to do if you're feeling kinda squeemish is to be honest. Pour a libation or light some incense in offering and talk to the deity that you're feeling trepidation for. Assert your concerns.

If you don't answer, of it you resist a call, no one can really say what will happen. People's experience with any given deity varies widely from one to another. My own experience in not paying attention to Apollo (now this was well after I realized the whole "He's here, I'm his" thing) has in one case led to a panic attack. And I know one or two folks who just swear up and down that he's nice as pie and the most patient god they ever did meet by gosh (I think they're off their rocker but...ya know...)

Wish I had a solid concrete answer for you but...millage varies greatly. unfortunately I also don't know of anyone who closely worships Zeus to ask about their experience. I have a friend who makes regular offerings to him because she feels it's proper to give him his due, but she doesn't have a particularly close relationship with him. (Compares it to an acquaintence keeping her at arm's length.)

[Agaliha]

Well, it may help to keep in mind that the deities as depicted in myth weren't exactly the deities as they were worshiped in religious cult. Many of the traits that we see as negative were extremely exaggerated for any number of reasons.
I don't know what it is that turns you off about Zeus, but if it is, for example, that he is frequently thought of as being oppressive towards women, it would probably be worth it to you to examine his cult as related to that of Hera. She had the much older temple at Olympus, where he stood as her consort. He is referred to in certain contexts as the husband or consort of Hera (Conveniently, I was jsut reading a bunch of this earlier today in the book Greek Religion by Walter Burkert, if you haven't seen it yet, it's highly recommended.)


That's a good point, their traits being exaggerated. It makes seense, too. The myths probably shouldn't be taken so literally. I think if one were to take them literally it would be hard to see various deities in a great light. Plus there are many contraditions and alternate myths, it'd be hard to make sense of it all.

And you're right, his philandering did put me off slightly. And he's a powerful and very male sort of god, I never was drawn to that type before. In fact not many gods ever got my attention before and I was sort of glad. But now Hermes and Zeus (at least nudges, dreams and signs). So I'm trying to not let that get in the way of anything. Zeus scares me though to be honest, I wouldn't want to piss him off!

As I said, I'm trying to be open with it all. I was suprised there wasn't that much info about him online considering his position, power and history (there was even less for Poseidon). I found more for Hermes, who many say is a sort of outsider with the Olympians. I've been reading about Zeus, though. And I have noticed he does have a gentler side (before I saw him as sort of angry, throwing lightening, etc). Theoi & Neokoroi lists some of his titles: Theos Agathos (the Good God), Phyxios (of Refuge), Philios (kindly, friendly), Xenios (protector of guests), Meilikhios (Gentle), Heraios (of Hera), etc. I'll have to look more into this cult and its relation to Hera soon (I've just been reading basics so far).

Also...just because a deity is trying to get your attention it doesn't mean that they want to lay claim on you for life. Sometimes it happens, they come, they're there for a while, they have something to teach you and they go. Very true. In the past that has happened with me.
That's why I'm not jumping the gun, but I am being receptive.
This is all foreign territory for me so I'm unsure about a lot of things.
I guess I'll see what happens over time...

There's also another possibility- this I have a decent bit of personal experience with- sometimes the deities get your attention so that they can use you to get that of someone else who is completely clueless, not paying attention or resisting their advances.Interesting. If they're trying to get my attention to get the attention of someone that I know...I don't think that's it. But if say Hermes got my attention so I'd be receptive to say Zeus, that'd make sense.

It's good that you're trying to keep an open mind and not just write off something that you're not comfortable with because of personal prejudices. I think the best thing to do if you're feeling kinda squeemish is to be honest. Pour a libation or light some incense in offering and talk to the deity that you're feeling trepidation for. Assert your concerns. Sounds like a good idea :)
Any tips for talking to him. Should I be extra formal?

Wish I had a solid concrete answer for you but...millage varies greatly. unfortunately I also don't know of anyone who closely worships Zeus to ask about their experience. I have a friend who makes regular offerings to him because she feels it's proper to give him his due, but she doesn't have a particularly close relationship with him. (Compares it to an acquaintence keeping her at arm's length.)I couldn't find anyone online that worships Zeus as a patron either. I have seen a few that are like your friend though, who honors him to be respectful. I wonder why there's no one that has Zeus as a patron....:huh: Seems I'm on my own! Yikes. Well not that I'm saying he's my patron, just in that there doesn't seeem to be many that have detailed experiences/relationships with him to look to for advice.

[Fiamma]

Interesting. If they're trying to get my attention to get the attention of someone that I know...I don't think that's it. But if say Hermes got my attention so I'd be receptive to say Zeus, that'd make sense.

Since Hermes is the herald/messenger of Zeus, that would make perfect sense.

Sounds like a good idea :)
Any tips for talking to him. Should I be extra formal?

eee...um...no clue to be perfectly honest. If I had to venture a guess, I'd start out erring on the side of caution and being maybe a bit more formal than you might otherwise be to begin with, but I probably wouldn't go so far as to say "extra" formal unless given some sort of indication that it's what he wants of you.


I couldn't find anyone online that worships Zeus as a patron either. I have seen a few that are like your friend though, who honors him to be respectful. I wonder why there's no one that has Zeus as a patron....:huh: Seems I'm on my own!

Well, if you're interested in yahoo groups, there's thiasos_zeus
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THIASOS_ZEUS/ It looks like it's a pretty sow group, but it might be a place to start asking some questions. There are also a ton of general hellenic groups. If you're willing to join some of those, you might very well find a few other folks.

Yikes. Well not that I'm saying he's my patron, just in that there doesn't seeem to be many that have detailed experiences/relationships with him to look to for advice.


It's ok, I get what you mean- you can usually learn a lot more from someone who worships a deity very closely than from someone who just makes an occasional offering.

[Agaliha]

Thanks Fiamma :)

*

There's some else I saw & wanted some feedback on:

From Hellenic Neo-Paganism (http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/HNP.html). Published in Green Egg (http://omphalos.org/pubs.html#GE), Vol. 28, No. 109 (Summer 1995), pp. 8-10.

I bolded the parts I was specifically unsure about.
Is that true? It sort of seems like a conflict-- being an atheist yet recognizing and worshipping the gods. Do the gods care what we believe or does doing (ritual, secrifice, offering, etc) all that matter?
:huh:

Belief in the Gods
Greek religion is very different from Christianity in that the gods don't care at all what you believe, so long as you worship Them. They demand cultus (from the same root as "cultivate") - tending the sacrificial fires, remembering Them - and one purpose of prayer and ritual is to nourish the gods and so rejuvinate them. The Greeks were quite explicit about this; a god could be hungry for the fragrance of the sacrificial fires. Then as now you can even be an atheist, so long as you recognize the gods and conform to Their will. Conversely, all the piety and faith in the world will not save you if you do not obey Their will. Greeks felt free to choose what they might believe, and so the Christian church fathers rightly called Hellenism the "father of all heresies" (from hairesis, choice).(Greek religion is a matter of orthopraxy (right doing) as opposed to orthodoxy (right saying).

The point is that the gods reward behavior in accord with their will, and punish behavior not in accord, regardless of whether you believe in Them or not. Of course, if you believe in Them, you are more likely to know Their will and act accordingly, but there are no guarantees either way. An unbeliever may by chance do the right things; conversely a believer may misinterpret Their will, and act wrongly. However, wisdom and understanding is more likely to result in right action.

[Fiamma]

Well, I've enver quite heard it say that it was cool to be atheist, but yes...Greek religion was very orthopraxic, much less focused on orthodoxy so overall. Right action is more importatnt than right belief.

Thanks Fiamma :)

*

There's some else I saw & wanted some feedback on:

From Hellenic Neo-Paganism (http://www.cs.utk.edu/%7Emclennan/BA/HNP.html). Published in Green Egg (http://omphalos.org/pubs.html#GE), Vol. 28, No. 109 (Summer 1995), pp. 8-10.

I bolded the parts I was specifically unsure about.
Is that true? It sort of seems like a conflict-- being an atheist yet recognizing and worshipping the gods. Do the gods care what we believe or does doing (ritual, secrifice, offering, etc) all that matter?
:huh:

[Theres]

1. Do the rules of miasma apply to personal meditation, offerings and communion with the gods or just festivals?
the idea of ritual pollution applies to any time your are addressing or working with the Gods.

2. Miasma involves open cuts and sores...would this include menstruation? (Kemetic Orthodoxy has that view). Should one not go to their altar, offer, etc during that time?
traditionally yes, this was also considered miasma, as was contact with a woman who had just given birth or with a murderer.
however i think that this is one of those ideas that has fallen by the wayside over time (and rightfully so).

3. How do pets fit into miasma (speaking more so of personal worship than communal)? For many pets can't be avoided, so...?
interesting question. for me personally it plays no part, thankfully! in fact my dog is one of my best 'channels' to the divine, especially considering my patron.
but in that article i posted in another thread about Hekate and Revelation there is a discussion of the use of dogs to purify one from disease, etc, so this may be one of those ambiguous situations which orthopraxy doesn't cover directly.

4. What are some real life examples of hubris, what exactly makes something or someone hubris? (I know of the mythic example of Arache and Athena, but not any real life modern examples)
i think Fiamma's answer hit it pretty much on the head.

5. Fumigation seems to be a noted step in worship, what about those that can't have incense or scents for health reasons (severe allergies, etc)? Can that step be skipped? What could go in it's place?
i think that a simple symbolic gesture such as washing one's hands before approaching the Gods works just fine.
in ancient times a font was always placed in front of every sanctuary for just such a purpose. and during the initiation rites at Eleusis the initiates marched to the sea to be washed in the ocean waters and thereby purified. water was very powerful in ridding miasma.

6. I've read that it's a very bad idea to resist the call of a deity, what happens if you do and what if it's a deity you aren't exactly drawn to or perhaps like?
wow, that's a tough one.
i don't think this should be seen as a 'my way or the highway' kind of thing, but more as general advice.
if a God wants your attention it is probably unwise to simply ignore the deity in question. however i don't think that necessarily equates to 'i have been chosen and have no voice in the matter'.
in my own case i recieved what i believe were unmistakable signs from a Goddess in whom i had no interest whatsoever, and was in fact quite unnerved by. this was NOT the deity i would have chosen had this been up to me.
so while i had little choice in the actual contact situation, my lifelong devotion to Her was (i believe) entirely my choice (although this decision did NOT come easily!). i could instead have just taken the situation for what it was, said thank you and moved along. i could not have ignored Her completely though. that might have qualified as hubris (although i was completely unconcerned with such things at that time).


Well, I've enver quite heard it say that it was cool to be atheist, but yes...Greek religion was very orthopraxic, much less focused on orthodoxy so overall. Right action is more importatnt than right belief.
i agree.
atheism wasn't shunned so much as a belief, but the atheist had to be careful regarding his actions.
Socrates was not executed for being an atheist but rather for publicly denouncing (or at least questioning) the Gods. by doing this he endangered the entire polis by subjecting them to the wrath of the Gods, and THAT was unacceptable.
and that is as good an example of orthopraxy over orthodoxy as i can think of!

[Twinkle]

I honestly can't answer any better than what has been covered here.

I would add a bit of a personal bit here....Aphrodite caught my attention awhile back..in fact it was rather obvious. She was never a goddess I would have chosen. I tried ignoring her...and I found I could not. In the end I quit resisting, and it's turned out to be a relationship that I am extremely grateful for, and my devotion to her is unwavering.

[teishabee]

Of those that are aware of miasma, please could you expand on what is meant by pollution in ritual?

Is this just to do with ritual cleansing or more abstract?

[Agaliha]

Of those that are aware of miasma, please could you expand on what is meant by pollution in ritual? Is this just to do with ritual cleansing or more abstract?
Well I'm new to this so others might be of more help. I'll just post some sites that mention it.

Sannion's Guide to Ritual Etiquette (http://www.winterscapes.com/sannion/etiquette.htm) talks about it:

But let us really think about miasma and see if it is actually as baffling and incomprehensible as many claim it to be. What are the things that were generally considered to carry with them impurity, miasma? Contact with the dead, with the insane, with murderers, with women who had just given birth, and the act of sex. (There were plenty of others depending on the sanctuary and the god in question - but these were the biggies.) I think part of the problem that people have with miasma is the lingering influence for them of Christian thought.

For many impurity is equated with sin, and sin with wrongness. This is not the case in Greek thought. With the exception of, say, murder there is nothing in that list that the Greeks or their gods would have thought of as wrong in and of itself. Certainly sex could be problematic if it was out of control (for instance the illicit liaison between Paris and Hellen led to one of the most disastrous episodes in Greek history) but the Greeks quite enjoyed the physical pleasures, as one sees in the frequent erotic imagery on vases and frescoes, in poetry and even in the stories they told about their gods. (Zeus' conquests were beyond number, so he was hardly a flesh-hating prude!) And in fact, religious obligation would have put one in contact with the dead, for it was the family's duty to care for the deceased and see that they received a proper burial. If one were negligent in their duty to a dead family member, not only would they incur the displeasure of the community, but the wrath of the gods and the punishment of the deceased themselves. And yet, this highly important duty - similar to the duty of women to bring forth children - carried with it a state of impurity. How can something that is not only necessary, but seen as a good, bring with it impurity? That has to do with the nature of the gods and the nature of mortal life.
The essay has some more comments if you're interested.

There's also this definition:
Miasma - Ritual impurity or pollution caused by either neglecting eusebeia, or through contact with blood, a birth, or a death. (here (http://kyrene.4t.com/glossary.html))
From: What is Hellenismos? (http://www.winterscapes.com/sannion/hellenismos.htm)
When a death occurs in the family, the people are ritually impure, and have a spiritual pollution, or miasma around them. Other things which can cause this pollution are murder, contact with birth, blood flow, sexual fluids, or the insane, as well as blasphemy, breaking ritual proscriptions, and among certain groups such as the Pythagoreans and Orphics, eating beans or animal foods. Before one can enter the temenos or sacred precinct within the temple or take part in sacrifices, one must undergo ritual purification. It is important to note that this concept of purity is very different than the Christian concept of sin. In most cases, miasma comes from unintentional contact with natural forces. It is generally not a moral condition, although it can arise from immoral actions or associating with such people. If one dies while under the taint of miasma, it will have no effect on their future existence. Nor is it necessary for any God to die for miasma to be taken from us. Certain ritual actions - prayer, oblations, and aspurgings - will suffice. In extreme cases, such as when Herakles killed his family, and sought purification at Delphi, more may be required, and the Orphics traveled around, offering more complex rituals - but those are certainly unique instances.Kemetic Orthodoxy has similar views before one does Senut (ritual purity before doing it), which I learned about before when I was in the beginner's class there. The use of natron, not being on your period, open cuts, wounds, blood, etc. Though there's differences of course. I'm sure other paths have similar things as well.

[Theres]

Of those that are aware of miasma, please could you expand on what is meant by pollution in ritual?

Is this just to do with ritual cleansing or more abstract?
this is the dictionary definition...

Main Entry: mi·as·ma
Function: noun
Pronunciation: mī-'az-m&, me-</I>
Inflected Form(s): plural -mas also mi·as·ma·ta/-m&-t&/
Etymology: New Latin, from Greek, defilement, from </I>miainein to pollute</I>
1 : a vaporous exhalation formerly believed to cause disease</I> ; also : a heavy vaporous emanation or atmosphere <a miasma of tobacco smoke</I>></I> </I>
2 : an influence or atmosphere that tends to deplete or corrupt <freed from the miasma of poverty </I>-- Sir Arthur Bryant</I>></I> ; also : an atmosphere that obscures : FOG (javascript:lookWord('fog');)<retreated into an asexual mental miasma </I>-- </I>Times Literary Supplement></I>

in this context it is used to depict a sort of spiritual pollution not terribly different from the concept of sin (although not exactly the same).

in Hellenismos the idea of approaching the Gods in this state is unconscienable, and therefore must be corrected through purification.
so yes, in a way this is comparable to the idea ritual cleansing, although not exactly in the Wiccan sense of removing bad energies, but rather more like the concept of atonement, only physical (if that makes any sense? :confused: ).

in ancient Greece the murderer (for example) was almost incapable of cleansing himself to the degree necessary, whereas, to keep with the examples i listed above, the woman who was menstruating or who had just given birth needed only to wait the appropriate amount of time until she was no longer 'polluted'.
but even the pious male with no accumulated 'sin' was expected to at least cleanse his hands with water before entering sacred space.

also, miasma was not just physical. impious thoughts were expected to be left at the door too, so to speak, and hubris was definitely considered pollution in this context.

[Theres]

oh, okay... i see Agaliha and i cross-posted.

reading her post i'd have to say that Sannion's definition is much better than my rather disjointed thoughts on the matter (go figure!), so, yeah... :)

[teishabee]

Thanks.

I think the first article did very well at explaining it. It has got me thinking.

The basis being that death and other mortal things separate us from the divine. So cleaning ourselves of such can bring us closer.

Although I have done many rituals were all was not so pure and felt these were strongest but then as included in the peice, It depends also on the situation and deity.

I get it for ritual , but what about prayers or other methods of worship. Or could that be taking maisma too far?

[Agaliha]

I get it for ritual , but what about prayers or other methods of worship. Or could that be taking maisma too far?
Well that's sort of what I asked with my #1 question:
Do the rules of miasma apply to personal meditation, offerings and communion with the gods or just festivals? Fiamma said:

1. Good question. The thing about Hellenic reconstruction and the vast wealth of information that is available...most of it is big group/community ritual and celebration. Practically none exists on personal practice. Many folks theorize that it wasn't written about because it would have been like writing a book on modern life and detailing the minutiae of waking up, putting on your slippers, walking to the bathroom, grabbing the toothpaste and putting it on your brush, turning on the faucet and wetting it...you get the idea.

So as far as I know, no one is really sure. (If anyone knows and has references, I'd be very interested in seeing!) many folks just scale down group practice for their personal practice.
And Theres said:
the idea of ritual pollution applies to any time your are addressing or working with the Gods.So...The answer may be that it depends, I'm guessing. On the diety. The ritual. How strict you are in your practice. I'm sure it's a good idea to be as cleansed as possible at all times.
I mean if I have dirty clothes on I wouldn't really feel comfortable going to my altar. Or if I'm not in the right place mentally (well I have many issues in this area so I can never be fully clear of these things, but there are things that I can try to control), I wouldn't want to pray or meditate. Or if I was sick or something. I'd wait till I can clear my mind of the unwanted thoughts/emotions (unnecessary things getting in the way, etc) before I go before my altar or worship, meditate and pray. Though I don't know if my path is Hellenismos--these things were things I thought of before and tried to avoid anyway (it's always best to be mentally there and focused, etc). If Hellenismos or another related Hellenic path becomes my path, I'd definately put this into action.

[teishabee]

Sorry to duplicate your question but hey at least it wasnt word for word.

My question just sprang from the article and I wasnt thinking back to your original post.:weirdsmil

Im just interesting like yourself. My path is not hellenismos but Hecate is. So Im just trying to research all avenues posible on worship of her and her cultural background.

[Agaliha]

No problem!
Good to know I'm not the only one who was curious. :)

Sounds like a good plan, looking at all avenues.

[Twinkle]

For me and my personal practice...I make sure that my hands are washed and I am in the correct mindset....basically, I focus on piety.

[YoungSoulRebel]

1. Do the rules of miasma apply to personal meditation, offerings and communion with the gods or just festivals?

Miasma, as it was known to the ancient Greeks, was the concept of spiritual uncleanliness. Sometimes something physical may temporarily fascilitate such, so... possibly. It would depend on what it is.


2. Miasma involves open cuts and sores...would this include menstruation? (Kemetic Orthodoxy has that view). Should one not go to their altar, offer, etc during that time?

In a modern context, no. Basically, we (as a society) have unearthed the great mystery of natal female biology. Keep in mind that it's said that Aristotle maintained the belief that women had fewer teeth than men (and the rest of that quote suggested he should have examined his wife's mouth). Basically, it's now known that menstruation is not "an open wound", it's the shedding of a matter created by the uterus -- it's distinctively different from digestive bowel waste (which is largely digestive bacteria), and there's comparitively little actual blood (the average woman may shed a couple of ounces of flow each month, but at tops, only a few teaspoons of that is blood), and the blood that is shed with it is not produced from a wound.

So, your answer is "no".


3. How do pets fit into miasma (speaking more so of personal worship than communal)? For many pets can't be avoided, so...?

I've never heard about this in a historical context, but I'm sure there are people who've read more on this than I have. In a modern context... close your pet out of the room? I don't know. What exactly do you mean by this -- meaning, what do you have in mind *specifically* when asking this.


4. What are some real life examples of hubris, what exactly makes something or someone hubris? (I know of the mythic example of Arache and Athena, but not any real life modern examples)

Hubris, at some point in antiquity, was defined as a crime of specifically shaming another person in an effort to advance one's status. In a modern context, it's excessive pride. I once heard of (on-line) an Hellenic Recon (I shit you not) planning his own hero cult, stating he was absolutely serious -- that's as good an example of hubris as anything else, if you ask me.


5. Fumigation seems to be a noted step in worship, what about those that can't have incense or scents for health reasons (severe allergies, etc)? Can that step be skipped? What could go in it's place?

As a practising Recon, I do feel it's important. Depending on the severity of the allergy, if one would be fine simply burning the incense in a room with an open window, then by all means, do it. But at the same time, I highly doubt that the Gods want us to put our health in a dubious position or kill ourselves in an effort to "do what the ancients did, cos being dead for two thousand years makes them right about everything!" In the case of a severe allergy, I would suggest perhaps maybe offering the scents in the form of a couple of drops of scented oils on a cotton pad? If if it's herbs, steeping them in a cup or bowl of hot water, as the steam will still carry the aroma, but unlike smoke, is less likely to aggivate one's allergies.


6. I've read that it's a very bad idea to resist the call of a deity, what happens if you do and what if it's a deity you aren't exactly drawn to or perhaps like?

In my own experiences, my stubbornness was punishment enough! LOL! Depends on the deity and how much They want you. Sometimes They'll give up and move on. Other times They'll give you some space for a while and try back later. Other times They'll keep throwing signals out at you until, enrapt in frustration, They beat you over the head with The Divine Obvious Stick(tm). And still, others have their ways. I've felt Athene give up on me and then when it hit me later, all I got was a dead signal. I've had Apollon beat me with a clue stick at every turn and then at some point Dionysos led me to His half-brother's doorstep and step on the gas. And I've had Hermes put a car or a train in nearly every dream I've remembered since I was six, even if it was only there for a few seconds, and since finally turning to Him, He still does that.

Like I said, it depends. In general, it shouldn't be advised to resist the call of a deity, but to give you an idea on the severity of the bad idea: Hestia will almost definitely bow out gracefully. Hera, on the other hand, may show you She was insulted, or perhaps She'll haughtily laugh it off and find somebody better. There's no concrete answer for all Deities.


-- RJ

[aluokaloo]

I have some questions.
What are some of the rituals performed? You know like did they have specific traditional rites for things like marriage, initiations, funeral rites, births etc.?
Did Hellenists of then and now place any stock in magick?
What is Miasma?
Do Hellenists only worship the Olympic Gods? Or do they worship Olympian and Titan Gods?

[patch]

What are some of the rituals performed? You know like did they have specific traditional rites for things like marriage, initiations, funeral rites, births etc.? The rituals themselves would vary from family to family, state to state, but certain gods were honoured in certain ways at certain times :)

Did Hellenists of then and now place any stock in magick?

Hehe. Can of worms.
In the way we define it nowadays? Not offiicialy.
Do Hellenists only worship the Olympic Gods? Or do they worship Olympian and Titan Gods? hekate, selene, helios and others were titan deities.
Some titans did recieve cult :)

[Agaliha]

Regarding the cults of various Titans, Theoi lists many aspects of worship and cult on their pages:
http://www.theoi.com/greek-mythology/titans.html

Rhea is another that had a cult.

Themis as well. An example:
ATHENS Chief City of Attika (Southern Greece)
Pausanias, Description of Greece 1. 22. 1 (trans. Jones) (Greek travelogue C2nd A.D.) :"Towards the Akropolis [at Athens], there is a temple of Themis."

[electricpeppers]

Some links you may find helpful.

General Hellenismos
http://www.winterscapes.com/sannion/hellenic_polytheism.htm

http://www.winterscapes.com/kharis/articles.htm

http://hellenismos.us

Information on Ritual
http://sponde.suneagle.info/

http://kyrene.4t.com/index.html

Some Hellenic Pagans perform magic but I'm not sure it's really compatible with Hellenismos as a reconstructionist religion (it's seen as hubristic). Mysticism within the religion, however, is generally accepted -- mysticism being Shamanistic techniques and divination etc.

[electricpeppers]

Miasma is basically 'pollution'. Someone else will have to explain it better... but before ritual/sacrifice one has to was their hands to physically cleanse oneself.

[YoungSoulRebel]

I have some questions.
What are some of the rituals performed? You know like did they have specific traditional rites for things like marriage, initiations, funeral rites, births etc.?

Pretty much what patch said. In ancient times, these rites varied from family to family and from polis to polis. Now, there is a a book, Handfasting & Wedding Rituals (http://www.powells.com/biblio/62-9780738704708-0), and while I don't have it on hand, when I read the author's take on Hellenic weddings at Barnes & Noble, they did seem knowledged about ancient Hellenic practises, and as I remember, their modern Hellenic wedding ritual suggestion seemed rather well-done (though this was several months ago, and I may be falling victim to ass-talking right now).

Also, in ancient times, there was a seemingly substantial cult to Eileithyia (http://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/Eileithyia.html), (and Cult of Eileithyia (http://www.theoi.com/Cult/EileithyiaCult.html)) the Goddess of childbirth, labour pains, and protector of women actually giving birth. Depending on the polis, the traditions and rituals surrounding Her cult almost definitely varied, but the ancient sources cited on Theoi Project give evidence that her cult was very widespread and regarded as an important one to many people.

Funerary rites would have, in most places, included ritual and/or cultus paid to Hermes Psychopompos, Hades, and Thanatos, though, again, those rites varied between families and polis. Furthermore, there is sufficient evidence to at least suggest that certain "mystery cults", like Orphism, had their own funerary rites that were unique to those traditions and those traditions alone.

Initiations were almost definitly reserved for mysteries and mysteries alone, be it Elusianian or Orphic. Mysteries are regarded as such for the simple fact that their rituals were carefully guarded and self-contained, and some weren't even open to "anybody", and while certain mystery cults (like Orphism, for example) are seen to have had considerable influence on the "mainstream" of ancient Greek society, there's a huge difference between doing something in a manner that was influenced by X-cult and being a bona-fide initiate of X-cult.


Did Hellenists of then and now place any stock in magick?

Historically? Well, not in the sense that many modern people think of today, and while some modern Hellenists see no harm in incorporating "magic(k)" into their practices, others are vehemently opposed to it and often cite ancient sources to make compelling arguments that "magic(k)" has nothing to do with Hellenismos, at best, and is argueably hubristic against the Divine, at worst. It may, though, be safe to say that if one who practises an Hellenic re-interpretation of BT Wicca, for example, were to go back to ancient Attika with others who practise that tradition, it would probably be regarded as just another "mystery cult" that only initiates are allowed to practice (as that's what BT/Gardnerian Wicca basically is, anyway) that would have little or no influence on the mainstream public religion.

Now, Hellenismos does have a long tradition of mysticism, but that's quite different from what most people consider "magic" in the Pagan or occult sense and, as somebody else said, is probably closer to what a lot of people would consider shamanic practises.


What is Miasma?

Miasma is spiritual pollution or spiritual uncleanliness.


Do Hellenists only worship the Olympic Gods? Or do they worship Olympian and Titan Gods?

There is plenty of worship, both modern and ancient, directed toward non-Olympian deities. One glaringly obvious example is, in ancient times, the polis of Rhoades considered their primary Deity to be Helios, the Titan Sun God, and one of the "seven wonders of the ancient world, "the Kollosos at Rhoades" was an immense statue of Helios that stood spread-legged over the entrance to the polis, and which may or may not have held an "eternally"-maintained and burning flame. The hymns of the Orphics contain many dedications to Titan and other non-Olympian deities. Boeotia was a polis that maintained an immense and popular temple and polis-wide cult to Eros, whom many ancients believed to be a primordeal Deity who bore no "familial" relations to Aphrodite (the belief that He was Her son came much later in antiquity, as did the depictions of Eros as a man any younger than sixteen -- it was at the Roman era that the importance of the cult of Eros and the Roman Cupid was greatly diminished and where He started being portrayed in the infant or toddler images that are very popular today); some claimed that people would come from all over the known world just to leave offerings at the Boeotian temple of Eros or to simply gaze at the popular statue of Him by Praxiteles, which stood in the temple (and judging by this photo (http://www.ancientworlds.net/aworlds_media/ibase_1/00/11/23/00112329_000.gif), it seems to be one of the few statues of antiquity to survive antiquity sans-emasculation). In ancient times, Hero and Demigod worship was also prevalent, and Sparta even had a festival that honoured both Apollon and His Spartan beloved ephebos, Hyakinthos. The Gods that were worshipped in ancient Hellas hardly began and ended with the twelve Olympian deities.

[Dragon Moon]

YoungSoulRebel would you please expound upon spiritual uncleanliness? I haven’t heard of it before :bigredblu

[Theres]

YoungSoulRebel would you please expound upon spiritual uncleanliness? I haven’t heard of it before :bigredblu
actually a large portion of this thread is devoted to exactly that.