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David19
October 9th, 2007, 07:40 PM
I wanted to post this and hopefully get some advice/help, right now, I feel drawn to 2 different paths - the Sumerian religion and the Hellenic one. I've been exploring Sumerian reconstructionism for awhile now, and I think it could be for me, but then the Hellenic one will pop up again, and I feel a strong pull to that one too.

I have no idea which direction to go in, I know paths do change, and it's likely, even if I were to start on one tomorrow, it may (or probably will change) in 10 years or whatever, but it's really confusing not knowing what direction to go into.

I've even thought about trying to find info on Hellenistic Mesopotamia, and try reconstructing the religion of that period of Mesopotamian history, and I could get the best of both worlds (and still remain a worshipper of the goddess Ereshkigal, who interestingly, was associated with Hecate in Greco-Egypt), although I haven't found much info (if you have anything to suggest for that particular area, please feel free to share with me), I know that some recons do things like that, for example, Sannion is now a Greco-Egyptian recon, who is reconstructing the religion of Hellenistic Egypt (read this article (http://www.winterscapes.com/sannion/graeco-egyptian.htm)for more info).

I'd appreciate any advice or help you could give me in figuring out what to do.

Thanks.

Fiamma
October 9th, 2007, 07:46 PM
I wanted to post this and hopefully get some advice/help, right now, I feel drawn to 2 different paths - the Sumerian religion and the Hellenic one. I've been exploring Sumerian reconstructionism for awhile now, and I think it could be for me, but then the Hellenic one will pop up again, and I feel a strong pull to that one too.

I have no idea which direction to go in, I know paths do change, and it's likely, even if I were to start on one tomorrow, it may (or probably will change) in 10 years or whatever, but it's really confusing not knowing what direction to go into.

I've even thought about trying to find info on Hellenistic Mesopotamia, and try reconstructing the religion of that period of Mesopotamian history, and I could get the best of both worlds (and still remain a worshipper of the goddess Ereshkigal, who interestingly, was associated with Hecate in Greco-Egypt), although I haven't found much info (if you have anything to suggest for that particular area, please feel free to share with me), I know that some recons do things like that, for example, Sannion is now a Greco-Egyptian recon, who is reconstructing the religion of Hellenistic Egypt (read this article (http://www.winterscapes.com/sannion/graeco-egyptian.htm)for more info).

I'd appreciate any advice or help you could give me in figuring out what to do.

Thanks.

I know nothing about the Summerian religion, so I don't know if this is a possibility...but have you considered that *both* might be right for you? I don't know if there are grounds for Summerian-Hellenic Syncretism, but unless the two are wildly incompatible, it might be possible to practice both in parallel. I know a few folks who are multi-cultural recons, including two who are separately Hellenic, Norse, and Egyptian...I don't know how they do it, but they are some of the more hardline recons that I know too.

Oh...and I am going to move this on over to the recons sub-forum.

Agaliha
October 10th, 2007, 03:58 AM
I have no idea which direction to go in, I know paths do change, and it's likely, even if I were to start on one tomorrow, it may (or probably will change) in 10 years or whatever, but it's really confusing not knowing what direction to go into.


Okay so much of this may be rambling, but here are my thoughts.

You seemed to have done a lot of research and thought about this, but have you actually tried to put any of these paths in action? Rituals, honoring, offering, etc? All the thinking and wondering in the word can't replace the experience and understanding you get when you actually practice it. I could read about Sumerian mythology, history, gods all I want, but unless I actively walk the path (at least for a little while) how would I know if it's for me or not? I can't. Soon, I need to start putting what I've been learning about Hellenic paths into practice. :)

I don't know what you're doing in your personal practice, but if you're not practicing why not start? Are there any gods in the Sumerian pantheon that have given you nudges--Ereshkigal? Perhaps do a simple offering or ritual for her/them? I don't know the edicate and customs of Sumerian Recon, though. Maybe light a candle, say a hymn (there are TONS of Sumerian hymns) to the diety or recite a part of a myth, meditate, etc. Do this for awhile. Note how it feels, how things go. You can always switch off to a practice Hellenic influenced path (though don't snub Ereshkigal or any other Sumerian deities in the process)-- perhaps at the same time. Though honoring both pantheons at once in the same ritual might not be a good idea at first. Maybe explain to the gods your position and ask for their understanding and guidance as you try to discern which path is for you.

Also Fiamma is right, perhaps both are? Perhaps instead of having just one Recon path, you practice Hellenic or Sumerian Recon depending on the deity you're honoring. Say you're honoring Ereshkigal, well follow the Sumeran ways. If you're honoring say Aphrodite, do Hellenic. If you can mesh them in a way that makes sense to you, works and doesn't offend the gods then that'd work too. It might be hard though, but not impossible. It might be up to you to make sense of the path as there might not be tons of historical linkage (so maybe instead of being Recon, you can just follow a Sumerian-Hellenic path?).

Another thought is to just stop thinking about it, stop worrying. That's sort of what I did. In time things will play themselves out. If you're receptive you'll notice little clues or nudges. Sometimes when we stop thinking about something, the answer suddenly comes to us and makes perfect sense. You are right, paths evolve and change. Spending a lot of time thinking about walking a path and what path to walk isn't really productive. Research is always good, but as I said practicing can really help you discern which path is for you.

And...yeah. That's just my thoughts. I hope it helps!

Tullip Troll
October 10th, 2007, 06:28 AM
I agree.

When you can't decide what shoes to buy you have to try them on and walk abit and see what works best. Examine them all you like but until you walk in them you won't know.

Plus I truly feel when your pulled more then one way it''s because your not ready to decide or neither is quite right.

Agaliha
October 10th, 2007, 07:03 AM
Hey David, I'm not sure this book would help you, but it looks related to the Hellenic and Sumerian topic:

Greek Myths and Mesopotamia: Parallels and Influence in the Homeric Hymns

Summary:
"Highly recommended as a source of Mesopotamian myths for classicists wishing to gain their first acquaintance with this field, and as a challenge for scholars in the area seeking to access the likkihood of Mesopotamian influence upon Greek myths."

By Charle Penglase

(Amazon page (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0415157064))

Peak at some pages:
http://books.google.com/books?id=M5nrlIoCyxAC&dq=greek+hymns (http://books.google.com/books?id=M5nrlIoCyxAC&dq=greek+hymns)

Might be worth looking into.

Theres
October 10th, 2007, 11:17 AM
damn, you guys are gonna send me to the poor house! (marks this one onto his short list too).

David, i have an interesting book you might like called 'Hellenistic Religions: The Age of Syncretism' by Frederick C. Grant (1953) which has a section on cults, including chapters on Oriental Cults and Egyptian Cults.

Agaliha
October 10th, 2007, 01:30 PM
damn, you guys are gonna send me to the poor house! (marks this one onto his short list too).

:lol:

*

David, another random thought. I'm not suggesting you up and forget about the Sumerian angle, but have you considered Phoenician (I know it's not the same as Sumerian)? I think there's might be a chance of creating a Phoenician-Hellenic path-- not sure exactly how, but it doesn't seem like it's impossible. They had many colonies around the Mediterranean. They mingled with the Greeks and peoples there (I've read they had strong Kemetic influences at least). I don't know exactly how much they mingled and shared, but it's another avenue to look into...if you want.
Or I could be totally off...I never really researched the Phoenicians so I might be remembering things wrong. I do know there was Roman-Canaanite (Phoenician) blending in Carthage (worshipping Tanit)... but I believe that was later on.

I did see this snippet

Some of the Titanes were also apparently gods of foreign import : Atlas and the fire-stealing Prometheus, for example, were frequently associated with the Anatolian kingdom of Lydia. The cosmic story of five Titanes--four holding the corners of heaven--may be Phoenician in origin. Late Greek writers also equated the Titanes with Set, enemy of the god-king Osiris in Eygptian myth.
http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Titanes.html

PALAEMON : Greek sea god of sailors & harbours ; mythology (http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Palaimon.html)--

The name Melikertes was derived from that of the Phoenician god Melkart or Melqart. However the Greeks re-interpreted this name to mean "the honey-eater." The Romans identified Palaimon with Portunus, god "of the harbour."

BEROE : Oceanid nymph of Beruit in Phoenicia ; Greek mythology (http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheBeroe.html)--


Beroe was also called a daughter of Aphrodite and Adonis, perhaps reflecting a local myth which made her the daughters of the Phoenician gods Ashtarte and Adon.


CHRONUS & AEON : Greek protogenos god of time ; mythology ... (http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Khronos.html)


His equivalent in the Phoenician cosmogony was probably Olam (Eternal Time), or Oulomos, as his name appears in Greek transcriptions.


CULT OF ATHENA 3 : Ancient Greek religion (http://www.theoi.com/Cult/AthenaCult3.html) --

"[The mythical founder of Thebes] Kadmos and the host with him were to make their dwelling [found Thebes] where the cow was going to sink down in weariness. So this is one of the places that they [the Thebans] point out. Here there is in the open an altar and an image of Athena, said to have been dedicated by Kadmos. Those who think that the Kadmos who came to the Theban land was an Aigyptian (Egyptian), and not a Phoinikian (Phoenician), have their opinion contradicted by the name of this Athena, because she is called by the Phoinikian name of Onga, and not by the Aigyptian name of Sais." - Pausanias, Guide to Greece 9.12.2

CULT OF APHRODITE 1 : Ancient Greek religion (http://www.theoi.com/Cult/AphroditeCult.html) --


"The city of Askalon in Syria ... [has a] temple of Aphrodite Ourania [the Phoenician goddess Ashtarte]. This temple, I discover from making inquiry, is the oldest of all the temples of the goddess, for the temple in Kypros [to Aphrodite] was founded from it, as the Kyprians themselves say; and the temple on Kythera was founded by Phoinikians from this same land of Syria." - Herodotus, Histories 1.105


General sites:
Canaanite religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion)
FAQ - Canaanite Mythology (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkx75CQ1H11MB7cFXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTFhbjVsOHB2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMTkEY29sbwNzazEEdnRpZANGODYxXzExM QRsA1dTMQ--/SIG=127jl303r/EXP=1192123257/**http%3a//pubpages.unh.edu/~cbsiren/canaanite-faq.html)
Phoenicia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkyTqCA1HqgwA4nRXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE5MGZsamVkBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMwRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA0Y4NjFfMTExB GwDV1Mx/SIG=11q8alqke/EXP=1192122986/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia)
phoenicia.org (http://phoenicia.org/) -- has religion info too
Aphrodite Legend (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkkPDDQ1H_kwBlkBXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE5MGZsamVkBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMwRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA0Y4NjFfMTExB GwDV1Mx/SIG=12278m51d/EXP=1192124227/**http%3a//www.phoenician.org/aphrodite_legend.htm), Adonis Legend (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkkPDDQ1H_kwBmkBXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE5YjBiaXRlBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNQRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA0Y4NjFfMTExB GwDV1Mx/SIG=11vlo6j0v/EXP=1192124227/**http%3a//www.phoenician.org/adonis_legend.htm) -- Snippet:

Aphrodite's nature reflected the peaceful Phoenician society in which she developed. She was the heart of their community, even when other deities later joined her. The people there referred to her simply as "Our Lady." She had an intimate relationship with Adonis near Byblos in Lebanon.The sea-going Phoenicians brought Aphrodite with them to islands across the Mediterranean such as Cythera, and then to Cyprus. Many years later, when classical Greece arose and Cyprus became that society's valued source of copper, the legend of beautiful Aphrodite came to mainland Greece. (not sure about the accuracy of this though)
Phoenician.Org (http://www.phoenician.org/index.html)
Phoenician Religion -- Pagan (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkjI3DQ1HCAsBsbJXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE5YjBiaXRlBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNQRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA0Y4NjFfMTExB GwDV1Mx/SIG=148q77hvi/EXP=1192124087/**http%3a//www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/GeogHist/histories/Oldcivilization/phoenicia/phoenicianreligion/pagan/pagan.html) --Snippet:


The system of gods and goddesses in Phoenician religion was influences and has influenced other cultures. As indicated below, there are too many similarities to be overlooked. In some instances the names of gods underwent very little change when they were borrowed. Even the legends maintained major similarities. For example, Ashtarte in Phoenician and Aphrodite in Greek or Adonis in both. Egyptian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Persian and others had their influences on the Phoenician faith system and borrowed from it.
The Phoenicians worshipped a triad of deities, each having different names and attributes depending upon the city in which they were worshipped, although their basic nature remained the same. The primary god was El, protector of the universe, but often called Baal. The son, Baal or Melqart, symbolized the annual cycle of vegetation and was associated with the female deity Astarte in her role as the maternal goddess. She was called Asherar-yam, our lady of the sea, and in Byblos she was Baalat, our dear lady. Astarte was linked with mother goddesses of neighboring cultures, in her role as combined heavenly mother and earth mother. Cult statues of Astarte in many different forms were left as votive offerings in shrines and sanctuaries as prayers for good harvest, for children, and for protection and tranquillity in the home. The Phoenician triad was incorporated in varying degrees by their neighbors and Baal and Astarte eventually took on the look of Greek deities.
What remains to be said is that Phoenician faith system evolved and changed as it was influenced by invader who brought along their own dieties. Hence, Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Percian, Greek and Roman gods found their way to Phoencian temples. This is evident in the writing of Herodotus as well as in the archeaological records.

Canaanite/Ugaritic Mythology FAQ, ver. 1.2 (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkmiNDQ1HKTsBaNVXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTFhNnBnZ2RlBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMTQEY29sbwNzazEEdnRpZANGODYxXzExM QRsA1dTMQ--/SIG=127o6s4fa/EXP=1192124173/**http%3a//home.comcast.net/~chris.s/canaanite-faq.html)
Info about Phoenician Goddesses (http://www.thaliatook.com/OGOD/phoenician.html)

Just a thought.

David19
October 10th, 2007, 07:57 PM
:lol:

*

David, another random thought. I'm not suggesting you up and forget about the Sumerian angle, but have you considered Phoenician (I know it's not the same as Sumerian)? I think there's might be a chance of creating a Phoenician-Hellenic path-- not sure exactly how, but it doesn't seem like it's impossible. They had many colonies around the Mediterranean. They mingled with the Greeks and peoples there (I've read they had strong Kemetic influences at least). I don't know exactly how much they mingled and shared, but it's another avenue to look into...if you want.
Or I could be totally off...I never really researched the Phoenicians so I might be remembering things wrong. I do know there was Roman-Canaanite (Phoenician) blending in Carthage (worshipping Tanit)... but I believe that was later on.

I did see this snippet


PALAEMON : Greek sea god of sailors & harbours ; mythology (http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Palaimon.html)--


BEROE : Oceanid nymph of Beruit in Phoenicia ; Greek mythology (http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheBeroe.html)--


CHRONUS & AEON : Greek protogenos god of time ; mythology ... (http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Khronos.html)


CULT OF ATHENA 3 : Ancient Greek religion (http://www.theoi.com/Cult/AthenaCult3.html) --


CULT OF APHRODITE 1 : Ancient Greek religion (http://www.theoi.com/Cult/AphroditeCult.html) --


General sites:
Canaanite religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion)
FAQ - Canaanite Mythology (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkx75CQ1H11MB7cFXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTFhbjVsOHB2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMTkEY29sbwNzazEEdnRpZANGODYxXzExM QRsA1dTMQ--/SIG=127jl303r/EXP=1192123257/**http%3a//pubpages.unh.edu/~cbsiren/canaanite-faq.html)
Phoenicia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkyTqCA1HqgwA4nRXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE5MGZsamVkBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMwRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA0Y4NjFfMTExB GwDV1Mx/SIG=11q8alqke/EXP=1192122986/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia)
phoenicia.org (http://phoenicia.org/) -- has religion info too
Aphrodite Legend (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkkPDDQ1H_kwBlkBXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE5MGZsamVkBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMwRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA0Y4NjFfMTExB GwDV1Mx/SIG=12278m51d/EXP=1192124227/**http%3a//www.phoenician.org/aphrodite_legend.htm), Adonis Legend (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkkPDDQ1H_kwBmkBXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE5YjBiaXRlBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNQRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA0Y4NjFfMTExB GwDV1Mx/SIG=11vlo6j0v/EXP=1192124227/**http%3a//www.phoenician.org/adonis_legend.htm) -- Snippet:
(not sure about the accuracy of this though)
Phoenician.Org (http://www.phoenician.org/index.html)
Phoenician Religion -- Pagan (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkjI3DQ1HCAsBsbJXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE5YjBiaXRlBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNQRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA0Y4NjFfMTExB GwDV1Mx/SIG=148q77hvi/EXP=1192124087/**http%3a//www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/GeogHist/histories/Oldcivilization/phoenicia/phoenicianreligion/pagan/pagan.html) --Snippet:

Canaanite/Ugaritic Mythology FAQ, ver. 1.2 (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkmiNDQ1HKTsBaNVXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTFhNnBnZ2RlBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMTQEY29sbwNzazEEdnRpZANGODYxXzExM QRsA1dTMQ--/SIG=127o6s4fa/EXP=1192124173/**http%3a//home.comcast.net/~chris.s/canaanite-faq.html)
Info about Phoenician Goddesses (http://www.thaliatook.com/OGOD/phoenician.html)

Just a thought.

Thanks for all that info, and those links, I'll look into it, I definantly do like the Canaanite/Phonecian religion, it may be something to look into.

David19
October 10th, 2007, 07:58 PM
Hey David, I'm not sure this book would help you, but it looks related to the Hellenic and Sumerian topic:

Greek Myths and Mesopotamia: Parallels and Influence in the Homeric Hymns

Summary:
"Highly recommended as a source of Mesopotamian myths for classicists wishing to gain their first acquaintance with this field, and as a challenge for scholars in the area seeking to access the likkihood of Mesopotamian influence upon Greek myths."

By Charle Penglase

(Amazon page (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0415157064))

Peak at some pages:
http://books.google.com/books?id=M5nrlIoCyxAC&dq=greek+hymns (http://books.google.com/books?id=M5nrlIoCyxAC&dq=greek+hymns)

Might be worth looking into.

Again, thankyou for that book recommendation, in fact, I think they have that in my local library, so that should save me money ;).

Thanks again, from the small bit I read, it seemed quite cool :).

David19
October 10th, 2007, 07:59 PM
damn, you guys are gonna send me to the poor house! (marks this one onto his short list too).

David, i have an interesting book you might like called 'Hellenistic Religions: The Age of Syncretism' by Frederick C. Grant (1953) which has a section on cults, including chapters on Oriental Cults and Egyptian Cults.

That book does sound quite cool, and it might be something that could help me a lot, I'm going to try and get it somehow.

Thanks for recomending it :).

And, I know what you mean about being sent to the poor house, lol!.

Agaliha
October 11th, 2007, 03:17 AM
You're welcome :)

EJ1096
October 11th, 2007, 05:13 AM
I am Having the exact same issue but with the nordic and celtic pantheons. I'm sorry I dont have any advice to offer. but just know your not the only one being pulled in diffrent directions

Agaliha
October 11th, 2007, 05:20 AM
I am Having the exact same issue but with the nordic and celtic pantheons. I'm sorry I dont have any advice to offer. but just know your not the only one being pulled in diffrent directions

Nope, he's not alone. Neither are you. ;)

I think everyone at some time in their life is pulled in many different spiritual directions. It happens and hopefully through time one can make sense of the right path for them. And to remember all paths evolve and change (even those who have recon paths), you evolve, learn and grow so nothing is stagnant. I think putting the paths in practice helps as I've mentioned.
And perhaps if one is really called to two paths, perhaps going the recon avenue isn't for you? One can walk a Nordic and Celtic path blended, but in a way that's not so confusing. Or you can follow both as a recon. Many people in the Kemetic Orthodoxy also practice other things and honor other gods, for example. Personally in my practice I'd like to keep it to one path and perhaps draw from others when I need to, I already have too many things to think about, I wouldn't do well with keeping two recon paths going at once and all of that. It's really just a personal choice.

I wish you luck though!

Garm
May 27th, 2008, 08:37 AM
It's complex, but I am coming to a resolution of a two path pull

These paths defined the difference between how I wanted to think of myself and how I actually was

What I'm trying to say that is the issue might be as much psychological as spiritual

From what I remember of the Sumerian culture and religion it was orderly and hierarchal where as the Greek world view was more anarchic, at least in comparison

How does this reflect where you want to go in your life?

Are you looking for order or liberation?

Stuff like that you may want to consider

Dushara
May 29th, 2008, 01:35 PM
Hi David, you might want to look into the traditions of Palmyra and Edessa from classical Syria. Their religion was syncretic mixture of Hellenic, Syro-Arabian, and Mesopotamian.

Are you interested in ancient Arabia or Nabataea?

They welcomed Greek influence alot too, and they're related to Mesopotamians (although you seem to prefer the earlier Sumerian culture right?).