Eclecticism, Cultural Theft and the Rise of Ignorance

[ThePaganMafia]

Wasn't sure which section to put this. This is a recent essay I wrote. You may have seen it on Witchvox. You may have also been one of the people who sent me hatemail hehe. :spinnysmi

Everywhere you look you see it. Every other Pagan book you pick up you see it. The mixing of different cultures, beliefs, and religions seems to be all the rage among our Neo-pagan (http://paganpedia.mind-n-magick.com/wiki/index.php?title=Neopaganism) friends. The Neo-pagan community calls this eclecticism. Eclecticism has grown quite popular in recent years. Why? It’s because people do not want to take the time or effort to follow a set path and simply make their own from scratch. It is sad that this has become such a common place in the pagan community. We see this most commonly in Wicca. With such various forms of it like Celtic Wicca, Norse Wicca, etc. etc. etc. it’s amazing it all just doesn’t collapse into a maze of misconceptions, misinformation, and just plain crap.
All this mixing creates a mockery of the cultures and beliefs in almost all cases. People even mix paganism and Christianity. How is it possible to mix two very different things and make it work? It’s not possible. It just creates a mess. The same thing goes to every other belief, culture, religion, and tradition that one tries to mix. It just turns into a mess of distorted views, misinformation, and lack of facts and basis.
People are now stealing and taking things from cultures and traditions without giving a thought to it. They just go with what feels right and not with what is right. The facts get distorted and the original idea is lost when this is done. A lot of times they won’t even give recognition to the sources of their thoughts and ideas when it’s obvious their belief is just a patchwork of traditions from many different beliefs. This is now an epidemic and has made a lot of paganism seeming “fluffy”. We as pagans make it a rule to stay away from all things fluffy. But we constantly see examples of how much our community has become saturated with it. We see this and are insulted by the continuous theft of our belief and cultures yet little has been done to educate. The only cure to this epidemic is education. We must learn not to turn away people with misconceptions so easily. We must educate people. So where did all this eclecticism originate? The mixing of traditions, cultures, religions, and beliefs have been going on since the beginning of time. It never has happened in the blatant and extreme way that is happening to Paganism today though. I believe the biggest factor in this is misinformation spread by “pagan” authors who write just for money and do not care what crap they spread. So the greed for money is one factor. We can also cite people’s laziness to truly study a path another factor. Also just general stupidity is of course reason for this. So we have three main factors why the problem persists today. But it still does not explain how it got its start.
After Wicca got its start in the 50’s it grew fast. Its founder Gerald Gardner made it strictly a coven based and iniatory religion. It was a mystery religion more or less. Of course it took many years of study, devotion, and hard work to truly become Wicca. As we all know people can be rather lazy. People didn’t want to work for the right to be called Wicca. So now we come to the rise of modern Wicca (also known as Neo-Wicca). This is about the time insta-witch books began to get popular. Because people had become impatient with traditional Wicca many books were written for the “Solitary Wiccan”. These books contained little fact about traditional Wicca and promoted the idea of eclecticism and the “if it feels right do it” ideas. And so the seed was planted.
The eclectic ideas spread like wildfire. People too lazy to work toward a religious path could easily create their own! The authors said so and as everyone knows the authors are always right. There is now a market for these books. And where there is a market for something there is money to be made. So this is where the money factor comes in. Authors who didn’t care about writing fiction as if it was fact could easily make a buck selling their insta-witch manuals. And unsuspecting newbie’s would fall into their traps and become seriously misinformed and become part of the problem. This is another reason why we should focus on education. The more people who know these books are crap the less of a problem we will have.
Now which authors should one stay away from? Well for starters almost anything published by Llewellyn Publications. I can also list several authors.
Silver RavenWolf: Her books for teens are misleading, misinformed, and she gives bad advice (such as tips for deceiving their parents).
Douglas Monroe: Wrote complete fiction and passed it off as fact and said his books described real Celtic and Druidic practices. Truly it was just a work of idiocy.
Though I know a lot of people will not like me including him Scott Cunningham’s books are one of the biggest promoters of this eclectic and “making it up as you go along” thinking.
I suggest looking at the author’s sources and credentials and quickly scan over the book to determine if it is worth reading. We can also look at the examples of what Neo-pagan eclecticism has brought us. A good example would be Celtic Wicca (http://paganpedia.mind-n-magick.com/wiki/index.php?title=Wicca). What an interesting combination. Especially since Wicca (http://paganpedia.mind-n-magick.com/wiki/index.php?title=Wicca) religion and Celt beliefs conflict in many ways. I know many Celtic Reconstructionist's who are insulted by this cultural and religious theft.
There is also Christian Paganism. The conflicts in this are obvious. One of the definitions of Paganism is anything that isn’t Christian so there is no way the two can go together.
To go to the extreme I have had someone tell me they were a Celtic Christian Wiccan who followed the Egyptian Pantheon. Don’t believe me? Well it is no joke though it is fun to joke about. It amazes me the things people come up with.
Even the Native American beliefs are getting taken and being mixed with the Neo-Pagan beliefs. Some time ago the Dakota, Lakota, and some other tribe(s) met and made a declaration of war on anyone who stole something from their culture. The Indians have suffered much indignity because of these shameful acts. The white men just can’t stop doing enough to these people can they? Neo-shamanism seems as one of the biggest things "borrowed" from the Indians and distorted with Neo-pagan (http://paganpedia.mind-n-magick.com/wiki/index.php?title=Neopaganism) beliefs. Not to mention many other things. The Indian culture has been exploited far too much.
A lot of people are tired of this ''mix whatever the hell I wanna and facts be damned" attitude that seems to be so popular today. Because of this the facts get distorted and lost.
The ignorance people have for the original traditions, beliefs, and cultures grows everyday because of this constant mixing. It is sad that we do not care enough about the preservation of beliefs and cultures anymore and have to distort them as such.
As I said before earlier in the article education is the best offense we have against this exploitation of other perversion of cultures and beliefs.

[ThePaganMafia]

hey there Tomas!

[Fiamma]

I'm interested in reading this, but could you go back and switch your text back to the default color? black is impossible to read on this brick red background.

[ThePaganMafia]

Done.

[Tanya]

I'm really pleased someone has given this so much thought.

It has often been on my mind too... some of the behaviors you describe are appalling, lazy and I agree disingenuous.

As an 'eclectic Wiccan' let me share with you where I'm comming from.

I'm a strong believer that one should stick within one's own culture , and it makes me cringe to hear people wanking on about 'their connection to spirit animals' and how they 'really want to get into the whole peyote experience" or asking me why I don't practice "Aboriginal" rituals (as if I would even be welcome.. or should be welcome!)....

but here's the trouble; I'm American... That means I come from a number of places genetically.... North Central Asia, Lakhota Sioux, Poland, Germany, Wales, Ireland, and Scotland... to name those my family can prove, and about as many we can't prove. Added to that is 200 years of my family living in the Appalacian Mountains with the traditions they brought with them and grew there.

And lots of cultural connection has been lost... For instance... my great great grandfather Harris went out west, and came 'back to Gilbert Holler" seven years later with 'a wagon load of half-breeds" Grandpa remarried and never discussed his first wife, but to say she was Lakhota and she had died....one of his 'half breeds' was my Grandmother's dad. Since culture is in my family carred by the women folk.... we never got any culutral heritage from my great great grandmother....so.... mostly, I steer away from it... I feel I would be appropriating a culutre that has never been mine.. despite our blood. but I am curious....


When I discovered Wicca in my late teens it really struck a chord with many of my family's Appalachian folk traditions and values, and I realized they must be connected (this is the Welsh side of my family) So.... OK... I'm Wicca with a family tradition..... and that's the basis of my practice and ritual....

but I think I can be rightly interested in North Asian Shamanism, as well as Native American spirituality, and Slavic traditions, and if I feel they 'work' in my basically Wiccan journey to align myself more fully with the creative powers of the universe... than so be it....

Those of us from various cultural backgrounds have a responsibilty to study MORE not less, and try to understand how in some way we can unify spiritually the diversity in our blood.

For me, that means being Wicca, my patron Goddess is Bridgit, the Bear, also known as Andarta on the Continent, and Mato' on the plains. I don't care what name they call her... we are all human and our exeriences in the world are similar, and the plants and animals we use to represent and symbolize those experiences are also often quite similar... across all these traditions bears mean they same.. they are forces of wilderness... wisedom, healing and maternal ferocity.... that suits me fine, and I have her paw tattooed on me....I used an American Indian stylized motif..... but I'm still a Wiccan.... I'm just a complicated Wiccan.

BB

--Tanya

[Philosophia]

I'm an eclectic Witch, not Wiccan, and I think its disgraceful that many of the behaviors you describe are occurring. However, I wouldn't put them under the label as eclecticism because it isn't being eclectic but just being lazy. I have researched, studied, and read every single aspect I can on my path and I still do so today. I don't put different deities into the one circle nor do I worship them together.

BTW, Neo-Shamanism comes from a variety of countries, not just the Native Americans and can be a valid path. There are some excellent posts on this in the Shamanism paths forum located here (http://www.mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=396).
Christianity and Witchcraft, in my opinion, can be merged together as I believe isn't a religion but a practice (go here (http://www.mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=223) for the Christian Witchcraft forum). Also, whether Wicca is 50-60 years old is also up for debate (go here (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=163234) for a thread on this topic).

[cheddarsox]

I don't follow a traditional path, but misuse of cultural things does concern me. However, I've been wondering about a connected aspect of this...What is the point of religion/paths/spirituality?

At earlier points in history, they had a more communal role than they do in many places today. They were not just about the spirituality of the individual, but about the community as a whole, they played a huge part in the social aspects, keeping the community close, even playing a role in the survival of the people.

Many of those aspects have been removed or at least downplayed in our more modern cultures. People who "cherry pick" traditions, deities, ritual to suit their need claim that it does "work". That the deities don't fight or protest, that they are making spiritual progress, etc.

In general, humanity doesn't seem that interested in keeping cultures intact, it appears we are more concerned with what is gained by borrowing/merging, that by what is lost. Religion is an aspect of culture where this borrowing/merging is taking place.

I don't know if there is an answer to this practice or not. Things are gained and lost through the practice.

I agree wholeheartedly that it is pure laziness and greed that cause authors to misrepresent and make false claims in their books.

I would prefer, if they invent new practices...that they don't falsely connect them to some other practice. There is no shame in creating fresh material, nor any reason to believe it is less effective or "real" than old material.

I agree that honesty and education are important. If people respect a tradition or deity enough to want to include it in their practice, seems they ought to respect it enough to do their homework.

Generally, I think people who haven't practiced it, misunderstand magick. They think that they can just do a ritual, say a spell and "poof" they can make whatever they want happen. And the publishers feed that greedy curiosity. But magick and spirituality are not instant gratification practices. They involve commitment, understanding, and energy. People are hoping they can buy it prepackaged and ready for consumption like a frozen dinner. I expect most of those people will wander away when the next fad turns their head.

I do have my concerns about borrowing willy nilly from anything that looks interesting. I try not to do that, mostly because I feel it would be dishonest for me. I think there is value in making a commitment to a path and working it...sort of like any relationship, not just cruising for hookups whenever something attractive walks by, but building a solid relationship. I have found that is what works for me.

But if others truly find spiritual growth through ecclecticism...then what is going on there? Does the "fruit" of the practice prove it is OK? Not all ecclectics are fluffy, lazy, etc. What factors do we use to determine if this practice is right or wrong?

cheddar

[LostSheep]

Some would disagree with what you say but i haven't got time right now, so i shall see if i have time a bit later.
:)

[Cassie]

PM you raise some interesting and valid points and I think anyone who calls themselves Pagan and takes their spiritual path seriously will be aware of the issues you raise and of your criticisms of Eclectiicism. However, I do disagree with some of what you allude to and in particular I’d like to stress that not all eclectics are fluffy. Moreover your post seems to me to highlight a difference in priorities in spiritual development and values.

I grew up in a Christian (Roman Catholic) background and it could be said that that religion is my cultural heritage. Yet it was the realisation that that particular heritage was not ‘my way’ that lead me to leave the church and begin my own spiritual journey. In other words I realised that Chistianity was too limiting for me and that there was much in other religions that I needed to explore. The biggest influences in my journey untill now have been Taoism, Wicca and Egyptian tradition. I admit these are three very different influences and I still believe in and follow elements of all these traditions (including Christianity) thus I can hardly call myself anything other than Eclectic. But for me and many others the universal truths and the things which different religions and philosophies have in common are more important than maintaining the historic and cultural integrity of any particular tradition.

This is not to say that I don’t have respect for the traditions which influence and guide me. For that reason I don’t call myself Wiccan because although I studied in a traditional Gardnarian covern and use that as the basis for my ritualistic and magical practices I was not initiated. I don’t call myself Taoist because although I have studied and followed the general principles I cannot pretend to totally devote my spiritual enquiries and energies to the longstanding eastern tradition. And likewise although my matron deity is from the Egyptian pantheon, I do not call myself Kemetic because it would be an insult to those who do devote themselves to reconstructing and following that ancient tradition exclusively.

What I am trying to point out is a difference in spiritual priorities. As steeped as I am in the beliefs and practices of Wicca, I think I would find it almost as spiritually limiting to be trapped exclusively within that tradition as I previously felt trapped by Christianity.

I understand and respect that some people grow most effectively within the borders of one tightly defined tradition, but some of us will never feel comfortable that way. True eclectics however will always be respectful to the traditions which inspire them and will try to study in detail and remain as true to the tenets of the tradition as they can.

For me ‘fluffies’ are something entirely different. I see fluffies as people who call themselves this, that or the other, without any real understanding of the path they associate with and without much desire to learn more. Indeed most fluffy Wiccans will probably be calling themselves Buddhists, New Age Messiahs or even Born Again Goths by this time next year!

Real eclectics are honest about their mixed influences, respectful and knowledgeable about the traditions which influence them and genuine in their desire for spiritual growth and learning.

[Amythyst]

How sad that you feel this way.

If I would've wanted to remain on a "set" concrete path, I would've remained in the Roman Catholic Church...or joined the Southern Baptists.

Rigidity is the quickest way to kill spirituality.

I always thought "culture theft" was when Sammy Davis Jr. and Elizabeth Taylor became Jews. _whistle_


And to all the young'uns out there who will jump on this post and nit pic it to pieces... ya, ya, ya. Live a while longer, experience more of life, and then come talk to me.

[LostSheep]

^ i agree absolutely.
It's always claimed that the the great thing about paganism is that it doesn't have the rigidity and the narrow lines that you have to follow of the mainstream organised religions. This just seems to be saying that you must tread just as narrow a path; ok, you might be able to choose what particular path you want; but you can't tread outside of it and you can't take any inspiration from anywhere else. And heaven forbid (excuse the pun) if you want to include any elements from one of those mainstream religions *shudder* .

[Philosophia]

I agree, however I do think it is disrespectful if you don't learn about the cultures and mythologies you are either taking inspiration from or borrowing some elements from. Now, if this makes me a young'un, then so be it. I may not be older but my opinion is just as valid as anybody else's.

[Cat]

Religion, like culture and language, changes. If it didn't, Wicca itself, by anyone's definition, wouldn't exist.

So, yes, I disagree with your premise. I also question your implication that Wicca, as you define it, does *not* do the lazy, easy things you describe. Do your Wiccans not have a 3 degrees in 3 years system for the majority of their coveners? If that is what you consider rigorous, I don't. Do they never invoke any deity from any other pantheon, or equate these deities? The Gardnerians I've known did. Do they study the history of Wicca and the other traditions? How far back do these studies go? What facts does this study cover, and what do they use to determine whether something is a fact or not? Much of the early traditions of native religions is lost to us and, as I said, they changed over time anyway. The other things that may have fed into Gardner's work included secret occult traditions, do you study those too in order to see if you think there's a relationship?


Oddly, though I question almost everything else you wrote, I agree with your list of authors to avoid, with the sole exception of Silver Ravenwolf, whom I have never read and therefore don't have an opinion upon.

[mystic_zoe]

Eclecticism has grown quite popular in recent years. Why? It’s because people do not want to take the time or effort to follow a set path and simply make their own from scratch

people may start from scratch and use influences and inspirations from other paths and combine them because there is no set path which they fully identify with.
i agree that if you are going to include influences from various paths that you should at study the beliefs and practises of that path as much as you can.

[Malcolm]

I've stolen so many things from so many people places and things I can hardly be bothered by stealing culture.

[ThePaganMafia]

I don't see how the essay is questionable. Some of you obviously didn't comprehend the point. I disagree with the borrowing things from cultures with the facts be damned attitude that so many people seem to have today. I dislike almost all of eclecticism and the fluffies it has created. Maybe Im rigid. Maybe it is a problem I like the preservation of culture more than doing things that distort beliefs and destroy tradition? The issue wasn't Wiccca. I was useing Wicca as an example. Though I do disagree with alot of Wicca also. Just cause someone likes doing things their own way doesn't give them the right to make mockery of tradition and belief system.

[SweetIsTheTruth]

Ehh, I don't know about all of this. It seems to me much of what we are seeing is far more related to the times we live in than anything else. Consider 500 years ago when the majority of the population might not have travelled further than 30 miles from where they were born. The only cultural exposure possible was the culture of one's birth.

Now, particularly if you are living in a large city, it is possible to be exposed to untold numbers of cultlures within a 5 mile radius of where we live. In other words, this buffet style approach to religious beliefs could not happen until mass travel was possible as it is today.

Combine that with the fact of the trends in religous beliefs we are facing. As some in this thread have already shown, there is a sizable portion of the population that are dissatisfied with the priests handing out knowledge from the traditional religions. In some ways, we are living in an age of customization and it appears to be effecting religious belief as well (in addition to the instant society who expects everything in an instant.) Two years ago at Beltaine I heard a professor of religion speak on how this buffet style approach to religion is becoming the norm. He stated the trend is so striking it couldn't be ignored or explained away. A sizable portion of the population is now handling their own beliefs by taking a bit from here, a bit from there, etc to create a unique whole exclusive to them specifically. Who knows where to draw the line at 'following one's heart' and cultural theft? At this point, I am not even sure it's possible such a line exists anymore.

[Sabriel MoonStar]

Honestly eclectisism is happening in more then just the religious aspects of life. I can have bangers and mash for breakfast, pizza for lunch and bombay aloo for dinner and not have a problem getting any of that as take out where I live. Music, fashion, food, language, literature, art, theater, and any other aspect of culture is showing that the world is becoming smaller and that people are being inspired by their neighbors whether they are next door or around the world.

Heck I've seen similar essays on bellydance boards. Everyone seems to be obsessed with cultural purity these days.

I feel such "purity" creates an "us" vs "them" mentality. If we separate ourselves into little compartments how can we ever hope to coexist peacefully?

[wolfjan1]

I am a voracious reader, who likes to talk to people about their cultures. Being an American, I am a mutt. So many different cultures in my background. So, I read about them. I listened to the stories that my grandparents and parents told.
Being eclectic, to me, means that I try different methods in my wish to be a healing ,green kitchen witch.
Respecting cultures is very important. But it is not something to be rigid about. if you "borrow" a healing recipe (herbs, ceremonial, etc. You give back. You figure out a way to give back that shows respect. step carefully.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

One primordial tradition , in the beginning ;

Many seperate traditions were created , and were " pure " ;

A merging back into one tradition , is natural process ;

Which shall again , seperate , and diversify ;

Resistance is futile...

[Twinkle]

Oh....I don't know. I rather liked the essay. But that's not really a surprise. LOL.

I think he makes a good point. People taking, borrowing, so on and so forth without propert respect and piety to those cultures, deites they are taking from is ...imo...wrong.

I think the trend of Eclecticism we see a lot of neo-pagans practicing now...the "hodgepodge of crap" as I like to call it...is a problem. Eclecticism is just a term they use as an excuse to be lazy sods.

I applaud PM for writing it...and I'm glad to see a young man see this trend and buck against the Fluffyism we see running rampant through Neopaganism.

Good for you...PaganMafia.

[Philosophia]

I don't see how the essay is questionable. Some of you obviously didn't comprehend the point. I disagree with the borrowing things from cultures with the facts be damned attitude that so many people seem to have today. I dislike almost all of eclecticism and the fluffies it has created. Maybe Im rigid. Maybe it is a problem I like the preservation of culture more than doing things that distort beliefs and destroy tradition? The issue wasn't Wiccca. I was useing Wicca as an example. Though I do disagree with alot of Wicca also. Just cause someone likes doing things their own way doesn't give them the right to make mockery of tradition and belief system.

Of course the essay is questionable. Everything is questionable in life. You made some points, people questioned them, you ignored their points. Thats life. Now, are you sure that some of us don't comprehend the points your trying to make? If so, instead of dismissing them, why not simply respond to their queries?

You get fluffies in all areas of Paganism (and probably life as well). I do know some fluffies in the recon. traditions as well as any other paths within the Pagan spectrum. To say that "most" of eclecticism has this issue, I'm going to say, is false. Unless you know most eclectics and their practices, your making a sweeping statement that you haven't backed up with evidence. I suggest you look through these forums (especially in the pagan section) and read the threads on eclecticism.

Are you rigid? I don't think so. I think you've tried to express your feelings. Preserving culture is extremely hard because, as much as some like to deny it, culture is fluid and rarely fixed. If this essay wasn't about Wicca, why did you bother using that tradition for most of your essay? Why not talk about different aspects of Paganism instead?

Actually, they do have the right to follow whatever path they want. However, you have the right to ignore them.

[Amythyst]

Honestly eclectisism is happening in more then just the religious aspects of life. I can have bangers and mash for breakfast, pizza for lunch and bombay aloo for dinner and not have a problem getting any of that as take out where I live. Music, fashion, food, language, literature, art, theater, and any other aspect of culture is showing that the world is becoming smaller and that people are being inspired by their neighbors whether they are next door or around the world.

Heck I've seen similar essays on bellydance boards. Everyone seems to be obsessed with cultural purity these days.

I feel such "purity" creates an "us" vs "them" mentality. If we separate ourselves into little compartments how can we ever hope to coexist peacefully?




Excellent post! Well said!

There was someone else who was really big on "cultural purity"...his name was Adolph Hitler. (Remember him?...short guy, gnarly mustache, couldn't dance worth a poop. He liked to host weinie roasts using books to fuel the fire, gave them that nice smokey flavor.)

[ThePaganMafia]

Im talking about preservation of history and culture not cultural "purity". That kind of mentality is why the Holocaust happened.

[Twinkle]

This really isn't about cultural purity. It's about intellectual honesty. If you want to be Eclectic, great...but show proper respect to the culture you're pulling from. Study, understand that culture, and worship with the correct piety and practice.

It's the whole...well, Aphrodite is all about love so I'll just invoke her any time I want to "use" her for a love spell without even understanding who this Goddess is and how she was worshipped....it's impious. It's disrespectful to the Goddess and the Ancient Greek culture.

This is what this essay is about. Let's not jump on the Adolf Hitler bandwagon.

[Philosophia]

Could we please stop putting down eclecticism? There are many of us who practice it, are intellectually honest and do show proper respect to the deities we worship.

[Twinkle]

Philosophia...you're missing the point. The point is that lazy idiots hide under the veil of Eclectism...and they do it a lot and often.

It's the point of the whole essay.

Why you continue to be defensive...I don't understand.

The vast majority of eclectics are not like you. Just saying.

[lamoka]

However one is brought to worship is a matter of their path and privacy.. and I say the world is a better place because of it.. stand in judgement if you will.. I feel confident the eclectics are probably more accepting of you than you are of them..
I agree with Amethyst and Sabriel Moonstar.. live first, then we shall see..
walking my path, living my truth
aho

[Shawn Blackwolf]

My tradition states that all other traditions
emanated as diversified branches from that
One Primordial Tradition , which was
seen through many varied lenses , thus
producing all the other bastardized cultural
traditions through time...

Thus , when I get respect and honor for that...

Oral Tradition , Pre - History

Then , and only then , shall I give respect...

And , as far as Tomas said , " my people "...

Do not dare to speak for me...I am Irish , English ,
Welsh , and Southern French...and I certainly
do not agree with the claptrap I have heard...

[ThePaganMafia]

I feel confident the eclectics are probably more accepting of you than you are of them..

Acceptance has nothing to do with this issue. Its all about the rape of tradition and culture.

[Amythyst]

This really isn't about cultural purity. It's about intellectual honesty. If you want to be Eclectic, great...but show proper respect to the culture you're pulling from. Study, understand that culture, and worship with the correct piety and practice.

It's the whole...well, Aphrodite is all about love so I'll just invoke her any time I want to "use" her for a love spell without even understanding who this Goddess is and how she was worshipped....it's impious. It's disrespectful to the Goddess and the Ancient Greek culture.

This is what this essay is about. Let's not jump on the Adolf Hitler bandwagon.


Quite frankly, I sit here chuckling to myself. I find the whole thing highly amusing.

I don't have to know all the intricate workings of a car engine to drive. Neither do I have to have an in depth knowledge of a particular goddess to receive her blessings or her aid...

Aphrodite...yes, she will aid me in love spells, even if, in my frail human state, I do not understand all the intricacies of her nature. She will aid me because I have invoked her. She will aid me because I have come to her for help. She will aid me because...I believe.

Impious? Disrespectful?...No.

[Twinkle]

However one is brought to worship is a matter of their path and privacy.. and I say the world is a better place because of it.. stand in judgement if you will.. I feel confident the eclectics are probably more accepting of you than you are of them..
I agree with Amethyst and Sabriel Moonstar.. live first, then we shall see..
walking my path, living my truth
aho


Well....I've been a practicing pagan for 20 years. I've walked an awful lot of path. The problem of acceptance and tolerance is a whole nother ball of wax.

Once again, this is not about acceptance. This is about intellectual honesty.

[Philosophia]

Philosophia...you're missing the point. The point is that lazy idiots hide under the veil of Eclectism...and they do it a lot and often.

I'm not missing the point at all. When you talk about eclectics, you're talking about me regardless of whether you think so or not. You want to talk about dishonesty...fine. Just stop putting eclectics in the center of the issue.


Why you continue to be defensive...I don't understand.

Simple. I'm sick and tired of people blaming eclectics for every single damn thing thats wrong in Paganism. I'm tired of reading that we're intellectually dishonest, that we're lazy, etc. because we're not reconstructionists or that are spirituality is different to others. I'm tired of being a scape goat for people who refuse to even listen to us and I'm tired of being ignored or told we're not talking about you. When anybody starts saying eclectics or even "most eclectics" you're still putting me into the mix.


The vast majority of eclectics are not like you. Just saying.

You don't know the vast majority of eclectics. Just saying.

All I'm asking people to do, as respect to eclectics on this site, is to stop labeling eclectics with these people.

[ThePaganMafia]

Well alot of "Eclecticism" is at the center of the issue whether you like it or not.

[Philosophia]

Well alot of "Eclecticism" is at the center of the issue whether you like it or not.

Your opinion only.

[Twinkle]

Quite frankly, I sit here chuckling to myself. I find the whole thing highly amusing.

I don't have to know all the intricate workings of a car engine to drive. Neither do I have to have an in depth knowledge of a particular goddess to receive her blessings or her aid...

Aphrodite...yes, she will aid me in love spells, even if, in my frail human state, I do not understand all the intricacies of her nature. She will aid me because I have invoked her. She will aid me because I have come to her for help. She will aid me because...I believe.

Impious? Disrespectful?...No.


We will have to agree to disagree then. As a Recon, we find that behavior impious and disrespectful. If I...as a Recon...invoked the Goddess in this way I would get the smackdown for it. The Ancient Greeks frowned upon such things as invoking the Gods to do your will.

Because I reconstruct the practices of the Ancient Greeks...I would never call on Aphrodite this way...as they would not have done it.

I understand that you feel differently. I would never judge you personally for it. We just believe differently. You work within your paradigm, and I work in mine.

[Amythyst]

We will have to agree to disagree then. As a Recon, we find that behavior impious and disrespectful. If I...as a Recon...invoked the Goddess in this way I would get the smackdown for it. The Ancient Greeks frowned upon such things as invoking the Gods to do your will.

Because I reconstruct the practices of the Ancient Greeks...I would never call on Aphrodite this way...as they would not have done it.

I understand that you feel differently. I would never judge you personally for it. We just believe differently. You work within your paradigm, and I work in mine.


That sounds like a good deal to me.

And now it's time for some hugs and kisses all around, I think. :ringaroun

[ThePaganMafia]

Well since electicism borrows from cukltures more than anything else I would find it more fact than opinion.

[Twinkle]

I'm not missing the point at all. When you talk about eclectics, you're talking about me regardless of whether you think so or not. You want to talk about dishonesty...fine. Just stop putting eclectics in the center of the issue.



Simple. I'm sick and tired of people blaming eclectics for every single damn thing thats wrong in Paganism. I'm tired of reading that we're intellectually dishonest, that we're lazy, etc. because we're not reconstructionists or that are spirituality is different to others. I'm tired of being a scape goat for people who refuse to even listen to us and I'm tired of being ignored or told we're not talking about you. When anybody starts saying eclectics or even "most eclectics" you're still putting me into the mix.



You don't know the vast majority of eclectics. Just saying.

All I'm asking people to do, as respect to eclectics on this site, is to stop labeling eclectics with these people.


The ones that are causing the problems are the ones that are claiming to be Eclectic. That's not my fault. Blame the people calling themselves something they are not.

I'm sorry that bad apples ruin the bunch..but that is what happened. Once again, I have been a practicing pagan for twenty years....I can say that in my travels and my experiences over those twenty years, the vast majority of self proclaimed Eclectics practice a hodgepodge of crap. Sorry you don't like it...but that is how it is.

Instead of trying to defend all of Eclecticism...you might be better served to expose those that are ruining the term for everyone else.

[Philosophia]

Well since electicism borrows from cultures more than anything else I would find it more fact than opinion.

No, not really.


The ones that are causing the problems are the ones that are claiming to be Eclectic. That's not my fault. Blame the people calling themselves something they are not.

And the ones causing another set of problems are people who put down all eclectics (or even most).


I'm sorry that bad apples ruin the bunch..but that is what happened. Once again, I have been a practicing pagan for twenty years....I can say that in my travels and my experiences over those twenty years, the vast majority of self proclaimed Eclectics practice a hodgepodge of crap. Sorry you don't like it...but that is how it is.

I've been practicing for thirteen years and I can say the vast majority I've met are similar to me. They have studied, some have degrees, been in covens, etc. and yet are still called "intellectually dishonest". However, you have bad apples in all areas, including reconstructionists, Astaru, shamanism, Wicca, Dianic, Christian, etc..


Instead of trying to defend all of Eclecticism...you might be better served to expose those that are ruining the term for everyone else.

I don't defend them, I defend myself. I defend my use of the label eclecticism just like you would defend the use of the label reconstructionist.

I defend my path, just like anybody else.

Edited to add: I've been thinking about this for awhile and, you know what, screw it. I'm tired and, I guess, a little bit pissed off about my path being devalued. Let me just say this; I am an eclectic. I, and many others like me, also practice in a way thats historically correct while merging it with our modern society. Many might disagree with that but so be it. What I would love to occur (and I probably won't ever get to see it) is a time when people can just say "you practice what you want, I'll practice what I want", etc.. You don't have to like my path or respect. Just don't blame me and my path for everything that is wrong with the world today.

So we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Btw, my original post stands. I liked the essay, a few inconsistencies I pointed out, but all in all it was alright.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Thank you Tomas , for clarifying your statement...

However , I still state that all other cultures are bastards
of One Primordial Tradition ...therefore all cultures since
then...and this is not directed at you Tomas , but the tone
of the thread...all cultures since , are thieves , and refuse
to accept , and honor the One Tradition , they came from...

So...who are the thieves here ?

[ThePaganMafia]

Im gonna stop because Iam argueing this point across emails, forums, and chatrooms and Iam tired. Alot of people cannot grasp the point Iam making so Iam done argueing.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

That's your belief and part of your spirituality based on personal gnosis and subjectivity.

Absolutely incorrect statement...and you , and others who believe
this , shall be proved wrong , over the year and a day course , I
am presently teaching...there are many , who have written on the
One Primordial Tradition...

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Firstly , I care not , for your belief , or others , who choose
not to believe...that has nil effect upon me , nor my knowledge
and wisdom , stemming from our Tradition...secondly...

Why don't you open your mind , and check into the thread...

Since you want proof...you might learn something

[Lunacie]

I'm interested in reading this, but could you go back and switch your text back to the default color? black is impossible to read on this brick red background.

There are enough responses that I think I'd like to read this too, but my poor ADHD brain cannot comprehend or make sense of huge blocks of text. Would it be too much trouble for you to also take a minute and edit your post so that there are smaller paragraphs?

[Shawn Blackwolf]

What thread, exactly?

And your beliefs apply not to me, either.

Thank you , for being so kind to ask , Tomas...

I am teaching a year and a day class , in COT forum...

Faery Tradition : Runa Mgieck...

It will specifically show , over a year and a day , how
all traditions , were derived from one...Again , I wish
you blessings on your path...you are welcome to check
out mine...

[ThePaganMafia]

Thank you , for being so kind to ask , Tomas...

I am teaching a year and a day class , in COT forum...

Faery Tradition : Runa Mgieck...

It will specifically show , over a year and a day , how
all traditions , were derived from one...Again , I wish
you blessings on your path...you are welcome to check
out mine...

and what tradition would that be?

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I would suspect you can read the words in the quote you made
of my post...look harder...

[Twinkle]

I did want to point out that this thread is not actually de-valuing Eclecticism. If anything, it's designating the "true" eclectic from the lazy person that just wants to call themselves that so they don't actually have to study anything.

It is precisely because the use of the term is being so abused that a thread like this exists in the first place.

Eclectism is not an easy path, nor one that is "fluffy"....it's just that there are a bunch of "fluffies" hiding within it.

Yes...there are fluffies everywhere....but in my experience....they are the most vocal, and therefore most recognized within Eclecticism.

If anything, the true Eclectics should be applauding the efforts of someone who actually does value Eclectism enough to get the lazy idiots out of it.

[Brightshores]

Could we please stop putting down eclecticism? There are many of us who practice it, are intellectually honest and do show proper respect to the deities we worship.


No, not really.

And the ones causing another set of problems are people who put down all eclectics (or even most).

I've been practicing for thirteen years and I can say the vast majority I've met are similar to me. They have studied, some have degrees, been in covens, etc. and yet are still called "intellectually dishonest". However, you have bad apples in all areas, including reconstructionists, Astaru, shamanism, Wicca, Dianic, Christian, etc..

I don't defend them, I defend myself. I defend my use of the label eclecticism just like you would defend the use of the label reconstructionist.

I defend my path, just like anybody else.

Edited to add: I've been thinking about this for awhile and, you know what, screw it. I'm tired and, I guess, a little bit pissed off about my path being devalued. Let me just say this; I am an eclectic. I, and many others like me, also practice in a way thats historically correct while merging it with our modern society. Many might disagree with that but so be it. What I would love to occur (and I probably won't ever get to see it) is a time when people can just say "you practice what you want, I'll practice what I want", etc.. You don't have to like my path or respect. Just don't blame me and my path for everything that is wrong with the world today.

So we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Btw, my original post stands. I liked the essay, a few inconsistencies I pointed out, but all in all it was alright.

I just wanted to put in my two cents and (perhaps not surprisingly) I agree completely with Philosophia.

You know, every time I see another one of these "Why eclecticism is wrong by definition" threads, I get irritated and swear that I'm not going to get involved in another one of these damn arguments. Then I end up responding anyway.

Frankly, I'm not interested in getting into pissing contests with recons. We have completely different worldviews and spiritual outlooks. And you know what - that's OK with me. I think spiritual diversity is a wonderful thing. I think what recons do is wonderful. I choose to believe that recons in general are on the whole interesting, learned, intelligent people who approach their spirituality with devotion and care. I'd just appreciate it if eclectics such as Philosophia and myself were afforded the same basic human respect and benefit of the doubt. There's really no need to condemn us all as being automatically guilty of "intellectual dishonesty" and "cultural rape."

There may well be a lot of "fluffy" eclectics out there. However - I'd argue that you will find frivolous, thoughtless people in all walks of life and in all spiritual practices. I wouldn't go judging all Muslims by the wackos who go around blowing stuff up, and I wouldn't go judging all Christians by those nuts who protest soldiers' funerals and the people who bomb abortion clinics. So - please let's all just approach each other with a bit of basic respect like the rational adults we are.


We will have to agree to disagree then. As a Recon, we find that behavior impious and disrespectful. If I...as a Recon...invoked the Goddess in this way I would get the smackdown for it. The Ancient Greeks frowned upon such things as invoking the Gods to do your will.

Just saying - although I do not worship in the way described by the previous poster, if a God or Goddess decides that, based on my spiritual practices, they're displeased with me and are going to give me the smackdown - then as far as I'm concerned I deserve it. I will learn from it, listen to the deity, and act differently in the future. Then again, I don't go around "using" the Gods anyway.

[ThePaganMafia]

I just wanted to put in my two cents and (perhaps not surprisingly) I agree completely with Philosophia.

You know, every time I see another one of these "Why eclecticism is wrong by definition" threads, I get irritated and swear that I'm not going to get involved in another one of these damn arguments. Then I end up responding anyway.

Frankly, I'm not interested in getting into pissing contests with recons. We have completely different worldviews and spiritual outlooks. And you know what - that's OK with me. I think spiritual diversity is a wonderful thing. I think what recons do is wonderful. I choose to believe that recons in general are on the whole interesting, learned, intelligent people who approach their spirituality with devotion and care. I'd just appreciate it if eclectics such as Philosophia and myself were afforded the same basic human respect and benefit of the doubt. There's really no need to condemn us all as being automatically guilty of "intellectual dishonesty" and "cultural rape."

There may well be a lot of "fluffy" eclectics out there. However - I'd argue that you will find frivolous, thoughtless people in all walks of life and in all spiritual practices. I wouldn't go judging all Muslims by the wackos who go around blowing stuff up, and I wouldn't go judging all Christians by those nuts who protest soldiers' funerals and the people who bomb abortion clinics. So - please let's all just approach each other with a bit of basic respect like the rational adults we are.


Just saying - although I do not worship in the way described by the previous poster, if a God or Goddess decides that, based on my spiritual practices, they're displeased with me and are going to give me the smackdown - then as far as I'm concerned I deserve it. I will learn from it, listen to the deity, and act differently in the future. Then again, I don't go around "using" the Gods anyway.

No one said all eclectics are guilty and that point has been made several times throughout this thread. And having to repeat points over and over is why Im tired of this argument.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Twinkle...the one thing I can agree with you on ,
is dedication to learning...not just sliding by...

In whatever one does , THAT is truly , the most
important...dedication...Initiation , via gnosis ,
coven , group or cultural tradition...very good ,
valuable , and sometimes necessary...but it is
dedication to one's path , which speaks much
louder than words...and the path , leads one .
to ALWAYS learning more...

[Sethserpenthus]

I really haven't read anything in this essay that I didn't read from every other anti-eclectic essay or rant out there, quite honestly. I guess picking on eclectics as "cultural thieves" and "insta-witches" is just as much "all the rage" as being eclectic, eh? And really I wonder how you would expect a good reaction from eclectics when you refer to their faith as "the rise of ignorance."

I'd really like to know why people focus so much on how eclectics are so "spiritually shallow" and "lazy" and "ignorant" and the like just because they don't stick completely to one religion when one could focus on the factual problems that a primarily eclectic base contributes to. There is a value in pointing out factual errors such as that Paganism is eclectic by definition when it is not or pointing out when things are culturally offensive, such as incorporating Native American beliefs into your own... yet it seems to me the majority of these anti-eclectic rants are not primarily based on these factual errors, but instead resort to the whole "lazy" and "selfish" adage. Give me a break. A person's faith is their own, I don't feel it is any of my business to tell anybody else that they are wrong in their faith because they are "lazy" about it, and furthermore, it is NOT my call nor yours to make whether or not somebody else is being lazy, it is the call of the Gods they worship.

[ThePaganMafia]

Yep it seems I would have to repeat my point yet again. But Im to tired of repeating it now. SO i just say read over the posts in the thread.

[Lunacie]

Im gonna stop because Iam argueing this point across emails, forums, and chatrooms and Iam tired. Alot of people cannot grasp the point Iam making so Iam done argueing.

Something you don't seem to grasp is that people can actually understand your point and yet disagree with it. Perhaps if you were willing to discuss the issue rather than arguing with the intention of converting everyone else to your viewpoint you wouldn't be as tired and frustrated.

[Lunacie]

I just wanted to put in my two cents and (perhaps not surprisingly) I agree completely with Philosophia.

You know, every time I see another one of these "Why eclecticism is wrong by definition" threads, I get irritated and swear that I'm not going to get involved in another one of these damn arguments. Then I end up responding anyway.

Frankly, I'm not interested in getting into pissing contests with recons. We have completely different worldviews and spiritual outlooks. And you know what - that's OK with me. I think spiritual diversity is a wonderful thing. I think what recons do is wonderful. I choose to believe that recons in general are on the whole interesting, learned, intelligent people who approach their spirituality with devotion and care. I'd just appreciate it if eclectics such as Philosophia and myself were afforded the same basic human respect and benefit of the doubt. There's really no need to condemn us all as being automatically guilty of "intellectual dishonesty" and "cultural rape."

There may well be a lot of "fluffy" eclectics out there. However - I'd argue that you will find frivolous, thoughtless people in all walks of life and in all spiritual practices. I wouldn't go judging all Muslims by the wackos who go around blowing stuff up, and I wouldn't go judging all Christians by those nuts who protest soldiers' funerals and the people who bomb abortion clinics. So - please let's all just approach each other with a bit of basic respect like the rational adults we are.


Just saying - although I do not worship in the way described by the previous poster, if a God or Goddess decides that, based on my spiritual practices, they're displeased with me and are going to give me the smackdown - then as far as I'm concerned I deserve it. I will learn from it, listen to the deity, and act differently in the future. Then again, I don't go around "using" the Gods anyway.

:wave: Another Eclectic here. I also agree with Philosophia's posts. And I want to say "bravo" for Brightshores pointing out that there are "fluffies" in every religion and spiritual path, and it doesn't matter to me whether they are in the majority or are just a small fraction of the population. Their beliefs and misconceptions do not do anything to devalue my own beliefs and practices.

And in my own experience, it's possible to be lazy and yet still have valid beliefs, and you will find that the connection with the gods and with likeminded people simply melts away. When you put the effort into your learning and your practices you are rewarded. The only time the gods have smacked me down it wasn't for being disrespectful, it was a "clue by four" to wise me up and get me back on track.

When my grandkids are disrespectful to me I don't smack them around, I look at them and say, "Excuse me..." and they backtrack pretty quickly. That's the most I usually get from my patron goddess. I had enough of worshipping through fear when I attended church, I don't go there anymore.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Ignorance has never been an excuse for rudeness , Tomas...

[SwordsFlameSong]

Admin Mode

Personal attacks violate the Respect rule of this site. You may not agree with what someone else says, and that is your right, but attacking other members is not acceptable.


What a bunch of malarkey that class is. Do these people know you are lying to them?

[ThePaganMafia]

Looked like he was attacking the class not the person but meh what does my opinion matter.

[Phoenix Blue]

You are a fraud and you are lying to your students.
ADMIN MODE

Were you not just warned about attacking others on this site? Strike three will earn you a one-day ban.


Looked like he was attacking the class not the person but meh what does my opinion matter.
Please do not respond publicly to moderations.

[Lanceminshall]

Speaking truth is not a personal attack. The class is a joke, it's supposed to be on rune magic, yet it has nothing to do with it.

[ThePaganMafia]

I couldnt have said it better.

[Philosophia]

Speaking truth is not a personal attack. The class is a joke, it's supposed to be on rune magic, yet it has nothing to do with it.

That is an opinion, not the truth.

[Phoenix Blue]

I couldnt have said it better.

Speaking truth is not a personal attack. The class is a joke, it's supposed to be on rune magic, yet it has nothing to do with it.
ADMIN MODE ... Again

You won't be saying it at all. Take a few days off, and learn to respect the rules when you can post again.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

A year and a day class , is just that...by the way...do you know
the meanings of Grammaer / g'raymmaerr , and Spelling ?

[Shanti]

My beliefs are my own and no ones else's.
Judgment upon them is for me to make as it is my truth.

Our truths are our own.

Ignore judgement from those not living in your shoes.
They are not your heart.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

My beliefs are my own and no ones else's.
Judgment upon them is for me to make as it is my truth.

Our truths are our own.

Ignore judgement from those not living in your shoes.
They are not your heart.

Applied to whoever , Shanti ...Exceedingly well said...

[Shanti]

Applied to whoever , Shanti ...Exceedingly well said...Thank you and its applied to all.
All are correct, for themselves.
Its when people place their truth onto others that the prob starts.

If we just live our own truth and let others live theirs, without judgement, there is no reason to belittle another.

All paths are right if your following your own truths. But they are your own, no one else's and thus no right exist to say what is right or wrong for others.

Its not tolerance thats needed these days, its true acceptance of individuality.

[Twinkle]

But see...an acceptance of individuality is completely different than being intellectually dishonest. I don't understand why that point is not being taken into consideration.

Just because one feels something to be true doesn't mean it's true. You can call a dog a cat all you want...but if it barks and lifts it's leg to pee....it's a dog.

Being Eclectic IS NOT a bad thing. The only time I personally have an issue with it is if it's done without knowledge, without piety, without respect.

I am sorry if anything I have said has offended people. What I attempted to do by posting here was to show the difference between an Eclectic Pagan and the people mixing whatever they want together without regard for the deity and the culture they are pulling from.

The fact that people are so defensive about it doesn't sit well with me...because if you are secure in your beliefs and why you believe it...nothing that I have to say, or any of the other people that posted here said should matter one whit.

I respect the fact that people will practice and do what they will. I absolutely do not have to accept it.

[Cat]

Well, Twinkle, one of the problems is that you are posting in a thread that began with a rant about the overgeneralized and unsupported evils of eclecticism. Speaking only for myself, being attacked doesn't exactly put me in a receptive mood.

No one is asking you to accept eclecticism if it's not your thing. Just to not pre-judge us. When is the last time you saw an eclectic ranting about how recons and conservatives are ruining paganity by not allowing change and creativity? This is the same orthodox/reform argument many other religions have had, and without a lot of stake-burning or an external enemy to unite against, the reformers aren't going to go away.

I'm curious what you mean by intellectual dishonesty. Would you mind elaborating and also explaining why you think it's a problem particular to eclectics?

[Cassie]

Being Eclectic IS NOT a bad thing. The only time I personally have an issue with it is if it's done without knowledge, without piety, without respect.

I am sorry if anything I have said has offended people. What I attempted to do by posting here was to show the difference between an Eclectic Pagan and the people mixing whatever they want together without regard for the deity and the culture they are pulling from.


I think if you look back and read carefully through our posts you will find that most of the eclectics here have actually said exactly the same thing. What we object to is being accused of being less diligent and respectful in our beliefs than those who are not eclectic.

[Vigdisdotter]

I do think it is disrespectful if you don't learn about the cultures and mythologies you are either taking inspiration from or borrowing some elements from.

I couldn't agree more.

I would also like to point out that there is a world of difference between real eclecticism and intellectual laziness.

[Vigdisdotter]

Cultural context and respect of tradition is not rigidity.

No it doesn't, but that seems to be how these things go. People can't see/accept a middle ground. One can understand cultural context and respect the traditions of the Germanic peoples without being an Asatrur...for example.


There's nothing wrong with having a set or concrete path, not all pagan religions are "free-for-alls" or "do what feels right" or eclecticism.

No they aren't. In fact most aren't. Nor are most hidebound, rule centric paths. Again, there is that forgotten middle ground (in it's many varied gradients) to be taken into account.

[Vigdisdotter]

I don't see how the essay is questionable....I dislike almost all of eclecticism and the fluffies it has created.

Look at the second sentance and you'll have your answer.

As long as you equate eclecticism and fluffy bunnies, showing an open disdain for the former, people are going to have justifiable objections, since you are basically telling others that their path is worthless.

I'm an eclectic, or I was. Since I've started really hammering out my path into something concrete and repeated, I don't think the word applies any more. But I do believe that this is the natural evolution of the personal path. It starts out as sampling different ideas, myths and cultures as the individual seeks to understand their own wants and needs. If they are REALLY lucky, they'll get it right on the first go. However most of us aren't and so the sampling continues. That which makes sense and is useful is understandably kept. Thus Eclecticism is born.

However, eventually, all those interests, feelings and interpretations will begin to coalesce and the individual will have a better idea of what they are lookign for. So the search becomes more directed, less eclectic.

Sure there are some that take without researching, or making an effort to understand. But that is no excuse for painting all who follow their own eclectic personal path with the same overly broad brush.

[Vigdisdotter]

I'd like to second this. I'm sick of my people's traditions and history being mis-mashed, mangled and exploited because of laziness or ignorance whether willfull or accidental. I will stand firm and strong to preserve the integrity and traditions of mypeople, their culture and spirituality.

That's nice. But what about those of use that work hard to make a cohesive, respectful, meaningful path out of our eclectic beginnings?

Gripe about those that are disrespectful and rape cultures to their own ends if you want, but that is not the be all and end of eclecticism.

[Faol-chù]

I'd like to point out, firstly, that Romans were EXTREMELY eclectic...especially just before Rome collapsed.
(Does history really repeat itself??)

I'd also like to point out the obvious...that the many traditions share a very common thread...
The problem is that when one starts to talk about that thread, the words (language??) and specific cultural views start to 'get in the way'. If you actually look, the differences become obvious. There is a lot that can't realistically be combined--if you actually take into account what the people from whom these traditions come actually thought about the specifics. ....But people are ignoring the specifics...
And I have to say it makes no sense to me.

[Vigdisdotter]

Well alot of "Eclecticism" is at the center of the issue whether you like it or not.

No, you r version of "Eclecticism" is at the center of the issue. And not everyone shares your version, whether you like it or not.

[Vigdisdotter]

Im gonna stop because Iam argueing this point across emails, forums, and chatrooms and Iam tired. Alot of people cannot grasp the point Iam making so Iam done argueing.

I got it just fine. Unfortunately, it was lost under your dripping disdain for an entire group of people, only some of which are guilty of disrespecting and raping cultures.

[LostSheep]

I'd like to point out, firstly, that Romans were EXTREMELY eclectic...especially just before Rome collapsed.
(Does history really repeat itself??)


Exactly... and that's what i find so ironic about people complaining about "stealing" things from other cultures ... nearly every culture, every religion, borrowed something from either other cultures they came into contact with or that they absorbed in some way or other.. even *gasp* the big bad Christianity shares myths, ideas, from other Middle Eastern cultures (Noah/Gilgamesh, for example), and then later on as the Chrtistian church became established it took on a lot of the sites that were sacred to the old religions for the sites of its churches... you just can't keep everything in neat boxes.

[Xentor]

Wow, aren't those reconstructionists lazy to just steal an entire path from a culture and claiming it theirs? They don't carefully study the relationships between the cultures, they don't carefully study the intricacies involved when combining deities from different pantheons... instead they frown upon such knowledge and call it dishonesty...

Well not all of them, just most of them. You know, the lazy ones.

</sarcasm>

[lamoka]

I couldn't wait to get up this morning and see what has happened on this thread..
I don't think I have ever seen a topic hit more nerves since I have been a member..
the rigidity of a recons opinion is EXACTLY why they are recons.. they tow a very hard line, very specific oriented, very A type personality.. nothing wrong with that..
that is what makes them good at their path.. also what makes them hard to get along with..
as an ECLECTIC (oooh, shudder at the word).. I am more laid back, NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH LAZY, my lines tend to be soft, NOT TO BE CONSIDERED FLUFFY, my heart open, NOT TO BE MISREPRESENTED AS A CULTURAL RAPIST..
when I found paganism, I found HOME, it was the rigidity and judgemental mentality of the catholic religion that pushed me in that direction. It was those A type personalities that held no room for the beautiful heart that my soul holds in this world or my husbands in the fact that he wasn't of THEIR faith therefore he was nothing in the eyes of God (this out of a priests mouth).. didn't make them WRONG, just wrong for me (and us). Now we believe OUR WAY, we treat people with consideration, tolerance, acceptance and love. We protect what we believe in and what and who we love, fiercely at times. I find myself in awe of recons and it makes my head spin that they have so much knoweldge of their path.. that isn't for me.
And as to the statement about a cat being a cat even if I wanted to call it a dog.. what if you went to another culture and they DID call it a dog.. are they wrong? or are you? It's a matter of perception is it not..
WHY DOES ANYBODY HAVE TO BE WRONG IF IT ISN'T HURTING ANYBODY ELSE?
That is the only time I would consider a belief to be wrong.. if it causes pain, whether it be physical, emotional, mental or spiritual in nature.
walking my path, living my truth.. and accepting others that are doing the same..
aho

[Kaylara]

The mixing of traditions, cultures, religions, and beliefs have been going on since the beginning of time. It never has happened in the blatant and extreme way that is happening to Paganism today though.

This is a lovely assumption. However, it's highly inaccurate. Anyone who's had any education in the cultures of the past will be able to give you many examples of cultures mixing religions and practices. Ancient Rome and Greece come to mind, with several deities being stolen wholesale from conquered peoples and disseminated all over the empire.

Regardless, never in the whole of recorded history have humans had as much information at their disposal, nor the ability to travel as far and as freely. Should it not follow that the mixing of cultures, religions, and practices will accelerate just as quickly?

Now I'm not a fan of eclecticism, even though I am an eclectic. I think that there should be certain practices, mores, and beliefs that one needs to share in order to be a part of any particular religion. That being said, a bit of mixing to borrowing of rites or beliefs from other cultures is not always a bad thing. It can greatly enhance your life, when it is understood in the context of its culture. We are all waaay too ethnocentric to be able to understand foreign concepts without a firm understanding of the culture. Not only that, but you should have a firm understanding of your religion before you start changing it.

Religions can change to suit individual needs, but really, there are some things, ie. core beliefs that you just should not change if you want to continue calling yourself a member of any particular religion. Christianity without Jesus is not Christianity.

[Amythyst]

I had enough of worshipping through fear when I attended church, I don't go there anymore.


Absolutely!!

I refuse to be intimidated and controlled through fear by the gods or anyone else.

[Kaylara]

WHY DOES ANYBODY HAVE TO BE WRONG IF IT ISN'T HURTING ANYBODY ELSE?
It could be argued that it is hurting other people when you represent yourself with a certain label and then proceed to not do *ANYTHING* that that label implies. Soon the label becomes meaningless. And that's fine if it's a label that you come up with yourself, but it's not when it is a label that thousands of other people are using to represent something specific.

It is incredibly annoying to me to be lumped together with most Wiccans. I am a Wiccan, I have specific practices and beliefs. Wicca is not just whatever you want. And yes, believe it or not there are things that are not acceptable in Wicca. But you're right in a way. You're welcome to believe whatever it is that you want to, and if it's not bothering me, I don't give a poop. But when you assume a label that is already used by people, you should conform to the mores, practices, etc used by those people. Anything less is cultural/religious rape and detrimental to those people who *DO* follow the mores, practices, etc that that label implies.

[Kaylara]

Absolutely!!

I refuse to be intimidated and controlled through fear by the gods or anyone else.

Personally, I'd be afraid if gods were threatening me. They're not called gods because you control them, after all. Read some of the old stories. Gods can screw with you until you wish you were dead, or worse, even after you're dead! By humans, no, you shouldn't be intimidated or controlled by fear. But gods are a wee bit more powerful than any human that I know. That's why they're called GODS.

[Twinkle]

Wow, aren't those reconstructionists lazy to just steal an entire path from a culture and claiming it theirs? They don't carefully study the relationships between the cultures, they don't carefully study the intricacies involved when combining deities from different pantheons... instead they frown upon such knowledge and call it dishonesty...

Well not all of them, just most of them. You know, the lazy ones.

</sarcasm>

While I get the sarcasm, I do feel that I should probably clarify some things.

What Recons do is recontruct ancient practices. That is "our" path. We actually do carefully study the relationships between the cultures...as are aware that syncretism is a part of virtually any Reconstructionist path. There are some that are strictly Syncretist Recons...meaning that they worship the Syncretized Greco-Egyptian Gods, for example.

Syncretism happens gradually, culturally and over a long period of time. In essence, it fuses together two cultures and their culture (which includes their religions)...effectively getting rid of conflicts within culture. The Ancient Greeks did it...but they were careful how they syncretized the gods. Syncretism means "union"

Eclecticism does not do this. By definition, Eclecticism means "picking from the best." There is no attempt to reconcile the cultural differences.


Personally, I don't "frown" on people worshiping different gods from different pantheons...but to be Syncretic is actually even more difficult than being Eclectic. It would take even more study and knowledge than Eclecticism requires.

[Twinkle]

Absolutely!!

I refuse to be intimidated and controlled through fear by the gods or anyone else.


It's not about fear. It's about respect.

Big difference.

[cheddarsox]

"Rape" and "steal" and "exploit" are strong terms, and I think there is a place for them, but generally not amongst pagans.

Yes, when a sports team, advertiser, or product uses images, deities, etc from a culture to make money, make fun of , or dishonor a group, those terms apply.

When a person borrows or experiments with some religious element or detail...nearly always with good intention and because they value and respect the deity or ritual...that is not rape, stealing or exploitation. Even if they don't do or their homework, or realize there is homework to be done.

When an author, in order to pass as "knowledgable" and make a quick buck, doesn't do their homework and gives false information...that is heading into the realm of raping, stealing, and definitely exploiting.

Intention DOES matter.

And many, when they have a good experience with the deity or ritual, do search for more information and history.

It is valid for people to defend their faiths/cultures from misuse, misrepresentation and dishonorable exploitation.

It is valid for people to explore aspects of other faiths and to incorporate them honestly into their practice.

And it is good for us to challenge one another, and support one another in honorable practice and scholarship.

That is what I see going on here.

Someone points out an issue, Others refute certain points, support certain points.

If we can get past our personal feelings...we have done a lot of good work on this thread.

The issues are real, ecclectics are not the bad guys. We can all work together to keep our pagan community honest and spiritual. It's not an us/them situation. People who know can share what they know, people seeking can seek more info, and we can all call "exploitation" just that when we see it happening, to our own trad, or someone else's.

Don't support misinformation, exploitation, etc. Don't buy junk that makes a quick buck off dishonoring other's deities and rituals, etc. Don't support what you don't believe in and what you don't want done to your traditions.

[Amythyst]

But see...an acceptance of individuality is completely different than being intellectually dishonest. I don't understand why that point is not being taken into consideration.

Just because one feels something to be true doesn't mean it's true. You can call a dog a cat all you want...but if it barks and lifts it's leg to pee....it's a dog.

Being Eclectic IS NOT a bad thing. The only time I personally have an issue with it is if it's done without knowledge, without piety, without respect.

I am sorry if anything I have said has offended people. What I attempted to do by posting here was to show the difference between an Eclectic Pagan and the people mixing whatever they want together without regard for the deity and the culture they are pulling from.

The fact that people are so defensive about it doesn't sit well with me...because if you are secure in your beliefs and why you believe it...nothing that I have to say, or any of the other people that posted here said should matter one whit.

I respect the fact that people will practice and do what they will. I absolutely do not have to accept it.



Good points well made.

It's okay if people are different, different in many ways-- not only in spirituality.

I would just like to add, Twinkle...The philosophical differences that we have does not in any way affect the feelings I have for you and the value I place on our friendship. It's okay to disagree. You were there for me when I really needed you. You are my "Sister", and I love you dearly...

Sometimes I believe that people...people of very different paths or cultures or personalities...are brought together for reason.

And to the readers...

A friend does not have to be a cookie cutter image of yourself.

[Twinkle]

The ultimate problem....is the one of the essay.

It is a rant. It is imflammatory. And in some venues that is appropriate. What happened here is that it got the responses it provoked....anger, defensiveness and so on.

The ultimate message is a good one: Lazy people shouldn't be claiming the Title of Eclectic.

On that, I think we can all agree.

[Amythyst]

Personally, I'd be afraid if gods were threatening me. They're not called gods because you control them, after all. Read some of the old stories. Gods can screw with you until you wish you were dead, or worse, even after you're dead! By humans, no, you shouldn't be intimidated or controlled by fear. But gods are a wee bit more powerful than any human that I know. That's why they're called GODS.


*hugs*...I don't know who you are, but you're damn cute-- and I'm enjoying your posts...

Yes...I admit...I suppose I do have a way of thumbing my nose at the gods. So far they haven't retaliated-- but I ain't dead yet. :)

I guess this is the result of years of Catholic parochial school...it was all about fear, fear, fear.

I'd rather go completely without religion than live my life in fear of the consequences of it.

[lamoka]

Respect and acceptance go hand in hand with me.. that is me.. I have not taken offense with anyone here, nor did, I hope, give offense.
I find it essential to value the differences in people in order to grow and thrive.. before this thread I had no idea that recons and eclectics had such isssues.. I think looking through this the only thing that would really stand out is the sweeping presumption in the original essay.. to me a generalization like that is unfair to the individuality of the practitioners.. if I were to gauge all recons by the writer of that essay it could tend to leave a bad taste in my mouth for "recons" in general..
but I choose to take into account that there may be personal experiences for their belief, they might be having a bad day (or lifetime) or maybe God/dess has lessons in store for such a narrow viewpoint..
either way..
blessings

[Sabriel MoonStar]

I would just like to state for the record that I was *not* referring to Nazis, Hitler or anything to do with WWII when I used the word purity.

A better comparison of purity in the sense I was using it would be, let's say, coffee. People who like to stay on one set path, be it recon, Christianity, etc like their coffee straight up black. Nothing else in it. They think that's the way coffee should be experienced.

Eclectics like coffee, but feel that something is missing. So they research the nature of coffee, and find that perhaps it can be improved with some cream and some sugar. So they carefully add a little bit of cream and a little bit of sugar until they find a blend that is just right. And they think that blend is what is best for them and they are happy.

Fluffy people also find something missing , so they throw tea, coca cola and cold tap water in and hope for the best. All they are left with is a cup of ick.

I think as long as you have a cup of coffee in your hands that makes you happy and isn't ick then everything will be alright. :)

Now I think I'm going to get myself a cup of coffee. This thread got too long overnight!:needcoffe

*Note: This analogy is not to be taken literally. I apologize in advance to all recons who like cream, all eclectic who like their coffee black and all Pagans who despise coffee.

[Shanti]

Even if someone does take pieces of several cultures to adopt for themselves, even if someone wants to follow a mix of beliefs, out of their lineage, from who knows where, so what. It may be acceptable to that person with the way they believe and have found their personal truths.

To one person onions are delicious. This is a truth to that person.
They are truly delicious. Onions are good.

To another, onions are the most morbid tasting thing. This is that persons truth. Onions truly are terrible. Onions are bad.

2 different people, 2 totally different but correct truths.
Onions are great and onions are nasty....both truths.

Nothing, no matter how debated, will change these 2 peoples truths about onions! :)

Onions are not apples, that is a physical fact and Mayans are not from Russia.
But how one feels about a path and how they create their path, mix it up even with neo and ancient together, or diligent to a history of choice, is of personal truth of feeling. And like the truth of an onions taste, its not for everyone to say whats correct or not, only for you to find your own opinion for yourself.

[David19]

Im gonna stop because Iam argueing this point across emails, forums, and chatrooms and Iam tired. Alot of people cannot grasp the point Iam making so Iam done argueing.

I liked some of your post, and I agree I don't like seeing cultural traditions being stripped bare or basically raped by people who don't understand them.

For example, people who say they worship Native American deities, when one, they don't understand the religion, the Gods, the culture, etc, and 2, you have to be a member of the tribe or invited into it to practice the religion.

But, there are some very cool Eclectics who do show respect to the Gods and to the cultures, like Philosophia and others.

[David19]

My beliefs are my own and no ones else's.
Judgment upon them is for me to make as it is my truth.

Our truths are our own.

Ignore judgement from those not living in your shoes.
They are not your heart.

I agree with you, I don't think there are "universal truths" but truths for each person, I think we are connected to different realms, for someone, that may include no Gods, for others it may include many or one.

[David19]

Thank you and its applied to all.
All are correct, for themselves.
Its when people place their truth onto others that the prob starts.

If we just live our own truth and let others live theirs, without judgement, there is no reason to belittle another.

All paths are right if your following your own truths. But they are your own, no one else's and thus no right exist to say what is right or wrong for others.

Its not tolerance thats needed these days, its true acceptance of individuality.

Very true especially your last statement :).

[David19]

Absolutely!!

I refuse to be intimidated and controlled through fear by the gods or anyone else.


Personally, I'd be afraid if gods were threatening me. They're not called gods because you control them, after all. Read some of the old stories. Gods can screw with you until you wish you were dead, or worse, even after you're dead! By humans, no, you shouldn't be intimidated or controlled by fear. But gods are a wee bit more powerful than any human that I know. That's why they're called GODS.

I'm going to agree with Kaylara, if a God were threatening you, I think you'd be afraid, they don't get to be called Gods 'cause there "full of love and light".

[LadyCelt]

Well, while I am drawn to Greek mythology and goddesses, I've also had goddesses of other cultures be drawn to me. So, in a way, this part of being ecclectic was choses by those goddesses. This does not invalidate it, but I can't just tell them to go away from my life cause they're too ecclectic for me. I'm not Native American, but I've been drawn to the concept of Mother earth and the realtions to nature and the animals of this idea since I was a child. As a child, I didn't think of myself as an "ecclectic," but I was certainly drawn to this. I still want to actually explore this spirituality more too.

I don't see a problem with people being drawn to different pantheons or religions. There are universal truths through all of them. Now, if you are doing a specific ritual, then it may be bad to mix everything. Or, if you are going to meditate with or invoke a specific deity, then it may need to be just all about them and not even other deities from that pantheon too. Ecclectic or Recon, I feel what matters most is respect and intent. Be respectful to the elements and to divinity, and I don't see a problem. But, no matter what path, respect for people (if you're in a circle or coven) and for the divine are truly to me required.

[Twinkle]

This is precisely why I have no issues with "true" Eclectism. We do not choose which Gods call to us.

[Lunacie]

Personally, I'd be afraid if gods were threatening me. They're not called gods because you control them, after all. Read some of the old stories. Gods can screw with you until you wish you were dead, or worse, even after you're dead! By humans, no, you shouldn't be intimidated or controlled by fear. But gods are a wee bit more powerful than any human that I know. That's why they're called GODS.

Ah, but that's RESPECT, not FEAR.

[lamoka]

This is precisely why I have no issues with "true" Eclectism. We do not choose which Gods call to us.

Which leads back to.. so what if you are called in various ways.. I myself felt called very celtic in the beginning and associated strongly with Brigid and Morrigan.. so I learned and listened. Since then I have felt the pull of wicca, strega, gypsy witch, pictish wicca, native american shaman, and now just plain old wonderful witch. I have pulled from all, and have forsaken none. I have learned what I could from each and built one upon the other. I call to each depending on the need and when I give thanks, all are encompassed to me under the Lord and Lady. It is no longer religion, but life. I feel like I have thirsted so long and have found a never ending well and I can't drink fast enough. I feel that God/dess make themselves known in whatever works for the individual. Some are more spiritually ready than others, but ANY level of spirituality should be welcomed and nurtured.
blessings

[Lunacie]

I'm going to agree with Kaylara, if a God were threatening you, I think you'd be afraid, they don't get to be called Gods 'cause there "full of love and light".

There is a difference between actually being threatened or punished by a god and being told by the leaders of a religion that you should be afraid. So many religions are one-removed from the divine in that regard, while Pagans have a one-on-one relationship with the gods and if the gods are upset with them they know it without having anyone else tell them that some natural happening (flood, hurricane) or some disease (AIDS) is the gods being angry and taking revenge.

I'm sure I would be afraid if I were aware that a god was angry and was threatening me/my family/my friends or my town/state/country, but would that make me honor and respect that god? Fear, yes. Honor and respect, I don't see how.

I follow the Old Gods because I honor and respect them, not because I fear them.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I'm going to agree with Kaylara, if a God were threatening you, I think you'd be afraid, they don't get to be called Gods 'cause there "full of love and light".

Now see , this is something that is a crux for my tradition...

There is a reason the Faery have been called " Fallen Angels " ,
in my tradition ( maybe not other faery traditions )...

We fully believe in challenging the " Gods "...matter of fact , we
believe that is a part of the transhuman process...

get up off knees , stand on your own two feet , and if need be ,
" Die " in the process of challenging any " Gods " in the way
of your path , progress , or desire...until you realize you are
one of the " Gods " , you are under their auspices , and shall
I say, tutelage...

By the way , as soon as I feel a moment of fear...I get so pissed
off , that it disappears , immediately...I choose fight , against
the " Gods " , than flight , thank you very much...

I will respect , any " Gods " , who are ready to make room ,
for me to stake my claim , and place , amongst them...my true ,
and rightful place...my birthright...

I shall wear the emerald crown of the lightbringer , amongst
the " Gods " , one day , again...this is the way of my tradition...

[Amythyst]

Which leads back to.. so what if you are called in various ways.. I myself felt called very celtic in the beginning and associated strongly with Brigid and Morrigan.. so I learned and listened. Since then I have felt the pull of wicca, strega, gypsy witch, pictish wicca, native american shaman, and now just plain old wonderful witch. I have pulled from all, and have forsaken none. I have learned what I could from each and built one upon the other. I call to each depending on the need and when I give thanks, all are encompassed to me under the Lord and Lady. It is no longer religion, but life. I feel like I have thirsted so long and have found a never ending well and I can't drink fast enough. I feel that God/dess make themselves known in whatever works for the individual. Some are more spiritually ready than others, but ANY level of spirituality should be welcomed and nurtured.
blessings


Wonderful! This should be framed and hung on the wall. This is the spirit of eclectism.

[Kaylara]

Ah, but that's RESPECT, not FEAR.

True enough. I don't see any reason to fear gods, unless they're playing *Trojan War/Original Snub* with you. But a lack of fear doesn't mean a lack of respect, imnsho. :)

[David19]

There is a difference between actually being threatened or punished by a god and being told by the leaders of a religion that you should be afraid. So many religions are one-removed from the divine in that regard, while Pagans have a one-on-one relationship with the gods and if the gods are upset with them they know it without having anyone else tell them that some natural happening (flood, hurricane) or some disease (AIDS) is the gods being angry and taking revenge.

I'm sure I would be afraid if I were aware that a god was angry and was threatening me/my family/my friends or my town/state/country, but would that make me honor and respect that god? Fear, yes. Honor and respect, I don't see how.

I follow the Old Gods because I honor and respect them, not because I fear them.

That's what I think too, I don't think people should be made to fear Gods because a religious institution said they should, but you should listen to your own truths and Gnosis (which, in the Gnostic-sense, means truth), and not what an institution says.

That said, if a God or Gods decide to release all hell on you, then I'll be definantly afraid!.

Although, IMO, hurricanes, floods, etc are caused by a deity/Power - Mother Nature (and that doesn't make her "evil", just beyond anything we can conceive of).

Also, for my own personal beliefs, I do think that diseases (like AIDs and others) and other natural disasters, etc are caused by spirits and/or Gods, not in the sense that some fundamentalist Christians and extremist Muslims believe, but more 'cause I'm an Animist and believe everything has a spirit and God inside it (it may not be a particularly nice spirit and God, at least to us, though), but I don't believe it's caused by a "sin" or whatever.

Hope this made some sense (and hope my beliefs didn't sound too insane ;)).

[David19]

Now see , this is something that is a crux for my tradition...

There is a reason the Faery have been called " Fallen Angels " ,
in my tradition ( maybe not other faery traditions )...

We fully believe in challenging the " Gods "...matter of fact , we
believe that is a part of the transhuman process...

get up off knees , stand on your own two feet , and if need be ,
" Die " in the process of challenging any " Gods " in the way
of your path , progress , or desire...until you realize you are
one of the " Gods " , you are under their auspices , and shall
I say, tutelage...

By the way , as soon as I feel a moment of fear...I get so pissed
off , that it disappears , immediately...I choose fight , against
the " Gods " , than flight , thank you very much...

I will respect , any " Gods " , who are ready to make room ,
for me to stake my claim , and place , amongst them...my true ,
and rightful place...my birthright...

I shall wear the emerald crown of the lightbringer , amongst
the " Gods " , one day , again...this is the way of my tradition...

That's quite a cool tradition that you have, and I can understand it, I might read some of the lessons in your class, out of interest.

[Eldawyn]

I have not read all of the comments. And could barely get through the "article," honestly.

But I found it to be full of harsh generalizations. Very broad, harsh generalizations.

So it is no wonder that so many have felt deeply and so personally about the subject.

Personally, I think that those electing to be (or called to be, born to be, etc.) eclectic, have beliefs which are just as valid as any other particular "tradition."

This board is meant to, I think, celebrate in these differences. And this article certainly does not shed this particular path in any sort of brilliant light. Very negative. And judgemental. And perhaps even harmful.

I am glad for the differences between us all. Diversity helps us all grow. As does unity.

Is that fluffy? I don't even care if it is.

[lamoka]

I have not read all of the comments. And could barely get through the "article," honestly.

But I found it to be full of harsh generalizations. Very broad, harsh generalizations.

So it is no wonder that so many have felt deeply and so personally about the subject.

Personally, I think that those electing to be (or called to be, born to be, etc.) eclectic, have beliefs which are just as valid as any other particular "tradition."

This board is meant to, I think, celebrate in these differences. And this article certainly does not shed this particular path in any sort of brilliant light. Very negative. And judgemental. And perhaps even harmful.

I am glad for the differences between us all. Diversity helps us all grow. As does unity.

Is that fluffy? I don't even care if it is.

This is EXACTLY what drew me to MW... I LOVE THIS!!! :ringaroun

[skilly-nilly]

I'd like to point out, firstly, that Romans were EXTREMELY eclectic...especially just before Rome collapsed.
(Does history really repeat itself??)

_whistle_ is it the end times? Maybe.



The Romans were syncretic, there's a difference.

I agree.

It's a question of definition, iml.

The Romans absolutely self-identified as following the Roman religion, and they added other attractive bits they came across to that religion.

In the same way many historical New Orleans based Voodoun identified themselves as Catholics while communicating with non-Catholic Beings or conflating them into Catholicism.

Eclectics, otoh, self-identify as having created a new Path made up of things they have selected from other sources and discovered on their own.

IMO, not the same thing at all.

[Lunacie]

_whistle_ is it the end times? Maybe.




I agree.

It's a question of definition, iml.

The Romans absolutely self-identified as following the Roman religion, and they added other attractive bits they came across to that religion.

In the same way many historical New Orleans based Voodoun identified themselves as Catholics while communicating with non-Catholic Beings or conflating them into Catholicism.

Eclectics, otoh, self-identify as having created a new Path made up of things they have selected from other sources and discovered on their own.

IMO, not the same thing at all.

I saw a post comparing electicism and syncretism yesterday but didn't have a chance to look them up in the dictionary. It would seem that I've been mislabeling myself. I follow a syncretic path, basically Wiccan but with some bits added from other sources. It might take me awhile to get used to the term Syncretic Wicca, it sounds a bit strange to me.

I don't know where that label "Eclectic" came from orginally, but I know that many Wiccans who don't follow an existing Tradition to the letter yet feel they have enough of the basic Wiccan traditions in their practice to deserve the title of Wiccan have come to call themselves Eclectic Wiccans to let others know that they don't belong to a Traditional group.

[lamoka]

e·clec·tic (-klktk) KEY

ADJECTIVE:

Selecting or employing individual elements from a variety of sources, systems, or styles: an eclectic taste in music; an eclectic approach to managing the economy.
Made up of or combining elements from a variety of sources: "a popular bar patronized by an eclectic collection of artists, writers, secretaries and aging soldiers on reserve duty" (Curtis Wilkie).
NOUN:

One that follows an eclectic method.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ETYMOLOGY:
Greek eklektikos, selective, from eklektos, selected, from eklegein, to select : ek-, out ; see ecto- + legein, to gather; see leg- in Indo-European roots

syn·cre·tism (sngkr-tzm, sn-) KEY

NOUN:

Reconciliation or fusion of differing systems of belief, as in philosophy or religion, especially when success is partial or the result is heterogeneous.

het·er·o·ge·ne·ous (htr--jn-s, -jnys) KEY

ADJECTIVE:

also het·er·og·e·nous (ht-rj-ns) KEY Consisting of dissimilar elements or parts; not homogeneous. See Synonyms at miscellaneous.
Completely different; incongruous.

I have brought these definitions to the front to help clarify.. I would still consider myself eclectic first because I don't see my life as a "religion".. it is LIFE for me...
secondly because I don't consider the "fusion" of my beliefs to be a partial success..
it is a ROARING, LIVING, BREATHING, PASSIONATE, CONSUMING, ALL ENCOMPASSING SUCCESS !!! :)
It works for me and for my family.. it has given us strength to face even the most devastating of days.. because of this eclecticism, we are still standing when a few years ago I know we would have fallen.
So..
syncretic doesn't work for me personally.. but I am thankful for this thread in helping me to shed another light on my path.. as for heterogenous.. well, too long and weighty and stuffy and, well, ya know... :) I'm sticking with eclectic!!
walking my path, living my truth
aho

[Brigid Rowan]

I have not read all of the comments. And could barely get through the "article," honestly.

But I found it to be full of harsh generalizations. Very broad, harsh generalizations.

So it is no wonder that so many have felt deeply and so personally about the subject.

Personally, I think that those electing to be (or called to be, born to be, etc.) eclectic, have beliefs which are just as valid as any other particular "tradition."

This board is meant to, I think, celebrate in these differences. And this article certainly does not shed this particular path in any sort of brilliant light. Very negative. And judgemental. And perhaps even harmful.

I am glad for the differences between us all. Diversity helps us all grow. As does unity.

Is that fluffy? I don't even care if it is.

Beautifully put.

[ThePaganMafia]

The response to my last article “Eclecticism, Cultural theft, and the Rise of Ignorance” was bigger than I could have ever imagined. I receive everything from flames and hate mail to letters filled with nothing but compliments. At first I made it my resolve to respond to every e-mail, but as time went on I realized there were just too many e-mails coming in to respond to each on personally. So I have decided to write a second article in response to the tons of feedback.

First of all I would like to state that I did not write my article to offend people. Though if you were offended I am not about to apologize for what I wrote. Besides many of you would not apologize for the flames that were sent.

A lot of people have said I’m arrogant and an elitist. Obviously they did not understand what my article was saying. Never in that essay was there one word that said all Eclecticism was bad. There was also no phrase that said all Wicca was bad. I did not once say my way of thinking was the only way of thinking. Not once did I say my belief system was the one true belief system and that everyone else was wrong.

What I did say was that intellectual laziness and the distorting of traditions and culture was rampant in the Pagan community. The evidence of this is everywhere. If you look at the books, internet, and what some Pagans call “facts” you will see it.
Laziness in the Pagan community is a big problem. People are too lazy or simply unwilling to look at the facts. If the facts are not looked at then what Eclecticism accomplishes is a mockery of tradition and culture. Facts are very important when dealing with culture and tradition. It is not there for someone to twist and mash together and parade it around as truth. To do so insults the tradition and all of its practitioners. It is an epidemic in the Pagan community.

Some people said I was quick to pick out only a few authors I didn’t like. I did not list more authors because the article was not about bad authors and I wasn’t going to devote a large section of my essay to listing them. People also pointed out I did not list any authors I thought were good. Why? It’s because there are far too many authors on a variety of subjects to list in one single essay. The ones I listed were the ones who distorted facts and destroyed tradition. I also said to check the author’s background, credentials, and sources before you buy their book to see if they were credible or not.

I was told my views are unfounded, ignorant, and irrelevant. I would have to disagree. The literature and beliefs that are coming out surely prove that my views are not unfounded. The problems I describe with Eclecticism are true so how could it be ignorant? The problems are becoming increasingly relevant as culture, tradition, and beliefs continue to be distorted by authors and people who are too lazy to do research.

Eclectics were quick to say “Well why does it matter what other people believe? Why is it any of your business?” It matters because they are taking from many beliefs and spreading there mashed together beliefs as fact and not caring about how the original tradition or belief really worked. It is my business because I do not like to see my beliefs and traditions takes by people to be destroyed and warped by their ignorance. People ask what gives me the right to speak this way about Eclecticism. I say what gives you the right to take and destroy my and other people’s beliefs. At the very least look at the facts and actually learn something of the tradition and culture before you take from it.

People told me that the mixing of beliefs, traditions, and cultures, has been going on since the dawn of human kind. This is very true. But in the past it has been the slow mixing of cultures over time. For example one empire invades another and the culture gets mixed over a period of many years. Of course this isn’t the only way cultures and beliefs have been mixed in the past but it is certainly the most common. Never in history have traditions and beliefs of so many different cultures have been brought together and mixed on such a huge scale.

In my previous article I forget to mention in the internet. With the internet came a huge abundance of information on Paganism. With this huge flow of information people could learn nearly anything on any belief. People too lazy to look at the traditions and beliefs closely would mix them together to create a jumbled mess of what they call a belief system. Such a free flow of ideas has created this idea you can mix anything you want. The internet can be blamed as much as books for this epidemic today.
I mentioned education about culture and beliefs in my last article in hopes that it would curb this growing trend of ignorance but it seems I was ignored in that aspect. People only saw my article as anti-eclectic and jumped on it calling me ignorant and that I was wrong about everything. I am going to say again that education is the best offense there is against intellectual laziness and the destruction of culture because of the constant mixing. Education is perhaps the most important thing in Paganism. Without education every single one of our belief systems would fall apart. But sadly education about the different Pagan beliefs seems to have taken a back seat to the “do whatever feels right” ideas.

I am not trying to say the way I choose to believe is “Proper Paganism”. I’m not saying my way of belief is the only way to believe. I am saying that cultural preservation and tradition are some of the most important parts of Paganism and that today people have seem to forgotten that. Learn the facts about a culture before you decide to integrate it into your belief system.

[Lunacie]

If ya'll care I wrote a second article.

<snipped>



It's not that I don't care, or don't think you have anything of value to say, but once again you have not taken less than one minute to edit your essay/post so that it's not all one long run-on post all mashed together.

There are several of us who are regulars here who have reading problems (ranging from eyesight problems to stuff like ADD) that make it impossible to read one large chunk of text. It's much more readable if you take the time to break it up into separate thoughts and smaller paragraphs.

The edit button is at the bottom of your post, please take less than one minute to help some of us out so that we can read what you've written instead of going off the responses to what you've written. Thanks

[ThePaganMafia]

My apoligies I hope that helps.

[Lunacie]

My apoligies I hope that helps.

Yes it really does. Thank you.

[Novembers River]

I did want to point out that this thread is not actually de-valuing Eclecticism. If anything, it's designating the "true" eclectic from the lazy person that just wants to call themselves that so they don't actually have to study anything.

It is precisely because the use of the term is being so abused that a thread like this exists in the first place.

Eclectism is not an easy path, nor one that is "fluffy"....it's just that there are a bunch of "fluffies" hiding within it.

Yes...there are fluffies everywhere....but in my experience....they are the most vocal, and therefore most recognized within Eclecticism.

If anything, the true Eclectics should be applauding the efforts of someone who actually does value Eclectism enough to get the lazy idiots out of it.

I agree with you, well put.

I was once eclectic. It was during a time when I was discovering all the wonderful paths that had previously been hidden to me by my Christian upbringing. I read about this and that, tried this and that.

Time went by and eventually my path became clearer (pagan pantheist). However, during my eclecticism I know the Gods and Goddesses were not angry with me. They are much more knowing of us than posters on this or any forum.

I came to Them with questions and an open heart. They answered and guided me on my path.

Are some lazy and insincere? Sure, but to group all electics together is simply ignorant. That was the impression I received from the initial posting.

[lamoka]

I am usually so very careful not to offend anyone.. I try to take into consideration that life may be dealing them some very hard blows that would account for their "behavior".. but in this instance the things that come to mind are, first..
maybe you should direct all that ENERGY coming through your words into a more positive bent, get an education and TEACH CULTURAL INTEGRITY FOR PAGANISM and then the next generation may be more "respectful" of belief systems. Secondly, what comes to mind when reading this is..


SOMEBODIES HAVING A MAJOR TEMPER TANTRUM!
aho

[ThePaganMafia]

I am usually so very careful not to offend anyone.. I try to take into consideration that life may be dealing them some very hard blows that would account for their "behavior".. but in this instance the things that come to mind are, first..
maybe you should direct all that ENERGY coming through your words into a more positive bent, get an education and TEACH CULTURAL INTEGRITY FOR PAGANISM and then the next generation may be more "respectful" of belief systems. Secondly, what comes to mind when reading this is..


SOMEBODIES HAVING A MAJOR TEMPER TANTRUM!
aho

Well I don't tread carefully if my essay is offensive to bad. If you don't think it's filled with positive energy thats not my problem. Iam not going to have respect for beliefs or people that destroy facts and demean culture and if you don't like it to bad.

[Sabriel MoonStar]

Well I don't tread carefully if my essay is offensive to bad. If you don't think it's filled with positive energy thats not my problem. Iam not going to have respect for beliefs or people that destroy facts and demean culture and if you don't like it to bad.

How can something destroy facts? If these fact are really *truths* then nothing can destroy them, not even disinformation. The only reason this could be upsetting is that if these truths are not as black and white as people would like them to be, but really are shades of gray, open to interpretation?

Religion is not a black and white factual matter. The heart of religion is UPG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unverified_personal_gnosis). If there were one set of truths then there would be one homogeneous religion.

One essay, no matter how well written, is not going to motivate people to discard years of personal experience.

[Lunacie]

Well I don't tread carefully if my essay is offensive to bad. If you don't think it's filled with positive energy thats not my problem. Iam not going to have respect for beliefs or people that destroy facts and demean culture and if you don't like it to bad.

I agree with November's River that what may seem offensive, lazy and demeaning to you, may simply be someone who is exploring the many possibilities and paths that are available. In time, some of them will undoubtedly find one path (or possibly two) that work best for them and will put their energy into learning more of that path.

Some are like me and they have learned one particular path (or a maybe more than one) and find it's not exactly what they are wanting/needing and they add bits and pieces to make it more personally fulfilling. They are not doing this because they are too lazy to learn a whole new path or religion.

Sure there are some who are doing exactly what you're complaining about, but I really think it's a much smaller percentage than you believe it to be.


I'm not sure I've expressed myself as well as I'd like, but things are a bit noisy and confusing here at the moment. I'll check back later.

[ThePaganMafia]

Not taking them time to learn or study about culture and beliefs is demeaning. Throwing it together without regard to the conflicts and facts is demeaning. How is it not demeaning?

[Libris]

About laziness... I think that for a lot of people, paganism is like a breath of fresh air. For the first time in their lives, they feel free and unbridled by dogma and it feels good. Because of this, occasionally they fall into the trap of wanting it all- knowledge, respect within the community and spiritual understanding- right now, without study or introspection. They get that -newbie- syndrome and I don't think that makes them lazy, it makes them eager. These people usually settle down and become really dedicated and knowledgeable members of the pagan community, members of their chosen paths.

Just because some people choose to rush through what should be a wonderful time of study and self exploration, doesn't make them lazy. Someone could read day and night, still come up with something historically inaccurate and take it as fact. I don't have contempt for these people, I feel bad for them because they are mistaking the journey for the destination. I'm not qualified to tell you where to spend your time, but if you really want to make paganism better, maybe working with the younger generation, as some have suggested, would be a more worthwhile use of your energy.

And what does this have to do with eclecticism? Nothing so far as I can see.

[Lunacie]

Not taking them time to learn or study about culture and beliefs is demeaning. Throwing it together without regard to the conflicts and facts is demeaning. How is it not demeaning?


"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Inego Montoya in The Princess Bride.

I don't think you can demean a culture, only a person. One may borrow things from other cultures or religions in an inappropriate way, perhaps because it's "trendy" or "cool", but not everyone who adopts and adapts beliefs and practices from more than one source is lazy or insincere.

As I said, there are certainly some people who are doing exactly what you are complaining about, I don't disagree with that at all. I simply don't think the percentage of Pagans who are adopting and adapting beliefs and practices from more than one source in a "willy nilly" manner is nearly as high as you seem to think it is.

[ThePaganMafia]

I never said everyone who did it was!

[Lunacie]

I never said everyone who did it was!

I never said that you said that "everyone" who did it was!

That's probably why I used the word "percentage", eh?

[Lunacie]

How can something destroy facts? If these fact are really *truths* then nothing can destroy them, not even disinformation. The only reason this could be upsetting is that if these truths are not as black and white as people would like them to be, but really are shades of gray, open to interpretation?

Religion is not a black and white factual matter. The heart of religion is UPG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unverified_personal_gnosis). If there were one set of truths then there would be one homogeneous religion.

One essay, no matter how well written, is not going to motivate people to discard years of personal experience.

Almost skipped right over this, but want to say that I agree. :thumbsup:

[juliaki]

Iam not going to have respect for beliefs or people that destroy facts and demean culture and if you don't like it to bad.


If you are not going to have respect for the world around you, don't be surprised if the world has no respect for you. _whistle_

[ThePaganMafia]

If you are not going to have respect for the world around you, don't be surprised if the world has no respect for you. _whistle_

Hm apparently you couldn't read the part where it said I have no respect for people who demean culture. Or maybe you decided to just ignore that part and twist the sentence into something completely different?

[juliaki]

Hm apparently you couldn't read the part where it said I have no respect for people who demean culture. Or maybe you decided to just ignore that part and twist the sentence into something completely different?



Oh, I read it. The phrase "demean culture" is subjective, however. What you might consider demeaning to members of some culture might not be demeaning to members of that culture...and likely isn't demeaning to all members of said culture. (And, as was eloquently pointed out, it is difficult to demean a culture... I believe you mean to say demeaning to members of a culture.)

Heck, your screenname might be demeaning to some members of Sicilian culture, especially if you're not Sicilian. ;)

[Philosophia]

I'm quoting my original post because the points in it have yet to be addresses:

I'm an eclectic Witch, not Wiccan, and I think its disgraceful that many of the behaviors you describe are occurring. However, I wouldn't put them under the label as eclecticism because it isn't being eclectic but just being lazy. I have researched, studied, and read every single aspect I can on my path and I still do so today. I don't put different deities into the one circle nor do I worship them together.

BTW, Neo-Shamanism comes from a variety of countries, not just the Native Americans and can be a valid path. There are some excellent posts on this in the Shamanism paths forum located here (http://www.mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=396).
Christianity and Witchcraft, in my opinion, can be merged together as I believe isn't a religion but a practice (go here (http://www.mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=223) for the Christian Witchcraft forum). Also, whether Wicca is 50-60 years old is also up for debate (go here (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=163234) for a thread on this topic).

[ThePaganMafia]

Heck, your screenname might be demeaning to some members of Sicilian culture, especially if you're not Sicilian. ;)

Big difference between religion and soemthing comedic.

[juliaki]

Big difference between religion and soemthing comedic.


Not sure how it is comedic...but maybe it's an inside joke for you. However, the title of your essay did not mention religion whatsoever. If one was so inclined, they could say that your choice of screenname falls under the "cultural theft" aspect of your concerns, unless you are able to prove that you had the cultural right to use that name to describe yourself. (And even then, good luck getting everyone within that culture to agree that it is appropriate!!)

[ThePaganMafia]

@ Philosphia

Then don't label it Eclectic if you don't want to. I have nothing against worshipping dieties from different circles but Iam against mixing them into the same circles. Especially when one does not study the belief sysytem behind it.

Your right about neo-shamanism and perhaps I shouldve used a different word or just labeled it as Native American Shamanism sicne that is what I was referring to.

Christianity and Witchcraft MAY be able to be mixed but I disagree about Christianity and WIcca etc. being mixed.

[ThePaganMafia]

Not sure how it is comedic...but maybe it's an inside joke for you. However, the title of your essay did not mention religion whatsoever. If one was so inclined, they could say that your choice of screenname falls under the "cultural theft" aspect of your concerns, unless you are able to prove that you had the cultural right to use that name to describe yourself. (And even then, good luck getting everyone within that culture to agree that it is appropriate!!)

Imnot going to argue on the humor of my SN when we are talking about RELIGION. Its quite quite different.

[juliaki]

Imnot going to argue on the humor of my SN when we are talking about RELIGION. Its quite quite different.

So now you're saying that humor, the power of names, and religion do not overlap?

Hey... are there any Discordians in the house tonight who would like to have fun with that one? :abanana:

If you'd like to bring it back to religion, how about this....

Some Pagans believe in a pacifistic approach to theology as an integral part of paganism. The term "mafia" brings up images of a highly nonpacifistic lifestyle. Thus, some Pagans might say that you are demeaning their practice of Paganism as a pacifistic path by using the term "mafia" with "pagan" in your screenname. Should they have the right to tell you that you can't use a name that obviously has meaning and works well for you? If not, then why do you feel that you have the right to tell other people that what they are doing is insulting to you? (Especially when their paths are likely nothing like what you practice?)

[ThePaganMafia]

I don't really care what other people have to say of it. My SN has no relevance in this discussion of the article.

[juliaki]

I don't really care what other people have to say of it.

And right there, that truly describes why even people who agree with some of the ideas behind what you're trying to say (such as myself) cannot side with you when it comes to what you've put in your essays at present.

Likewise, as you put out the energy that you don't care what other people have to say about this, that, or something else, the people that you're trying to "educate" likely won't care what you have to say because on some level they will recognize that there's no potential for mutual respect (even in the absence of agreement).

[ThePaganMafia]

Im suprised no one has made a point of how we need more education and more respect for culture and tradition. My articles point was that the facts need to be looked at before any mixing of religion is done and religion is far to precious to be torn asunder and matched together. But apparently that is beyond most of you people.

[Philosophia]

Im suprised no one has made a point of how we need more education and more respect for culture and tradition. My articles point was that the facts need to be looked at before any mixing of religion is done and religion is far to precious to be torn asunder and matched together. But apparently that is beyond most of you people.

:wtf: I think you will find that a lot of us do say that and have said it within this very thread. Please, read around the forums first before making an inflammatory comment.

[SwordsFlameSong]

Im suprised no one has made a point of how we need more education and more respect for culture and tradition. My articles point was that the facts need to be looked at before any mixing of religion is done and religion is far to precious to be torn asunder and matched together. But apparently that is beyond most of you people.


Idon't get that impression from most of the posts and I think most people here can appreciate culture, tradition and even respect it. What I am seeing is a bit of confusion as to what constitutes the willy nilly meshing of cultural/religious concepts. Many eclectics, such as myself, do take a great deal of care when working with dieties that may stray from our norm. I was like that as a youngster even.

To take that farther, some of us have run into "purists" who castigate no matter the level of care one takes.....

[Cassie]

Im suprised no one has made a point of how we need more education and more respect for culture and tradition. My articles point was that the facts need to be looked at before any mixing of religion is done and religion is far to precious to be torn asunder and matched together. But apparently that is beyond most of you people.
No actually most of us have agreed with most of what you state above, again and again through this thread. You don't seem to want to accept this though. Is this because in reality us eclectics refuse to be the cultural theives and vampires you want to believe we are?

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Hail Discordia...!!!

Even though I have no use for religion...which , with
dogma , catma - chisms , and fixed consciousness ,
is a joke to me...as a wise man , in certain ways ,
said :

" Religion , is the opiate of the masses "

[lamoka]

maybe you should direct all that ENERGY coming through your words into a more positive bent, get an education and TEACH CULTURAL INTEGRITY FOR PAGANISM and then the next generation may be more "respectful" of belief systems.

I believe I did.. who missed THAT point? _whistle_
aho

[juliaki]

Im suprised no one has made a point of how we need more education and more respect for culture and tradition. My articles point was that the facts need to be looked at before any mixing of religion is done and religion is far to precious to be torn asunder and matched together. But apparently that is beyond most of you people.



As I mentioned elsewhere, it's challenging to accept someone telling me (or the greater we) that more education is needed when the original essay had some factual errors that speak to a lack of education.

Education does not automatically bring about respect in general, let alone for culture or tradition.

Case in point... look at the number of people who have grown up steeped in rich cultural heritages who go off to college and get an education and decide they want nothing to do with the "silly superstitions" of their hometowns and homelands.

What you seem to believe is impossible is that someone can be well educated and still opt to choose a form of mix-and-match eclecticism. Within the realm of classic eclecticism as I was taught when I first came to the Craft many years ago, an eclectic was someone who was well versed in enough traditions that they knew how to blend them effectively. You seem to believe that kind of eclectic does not exist anymore...however I've not thought to relegate them to the realm of extinction quite yet.

[Sabriel MoonStar]

I don't really care what other people have to say of it. My SN has no relevance in this discussion of the article.

Well you keep telling us how eclectics are "demeaning" culture. Culture is more then just religion. It is a region/group's arts, food, language, social structure, justice system and much much more. I am sure Sicilians and Pagans can find many points about your screen name that they may well find demeaning. Just because you are not demeaning their religion does not mean you haven't demeaned their culture.

I can demean Japanese culture by picking Buddhism apart willy nilly or just as easily by pouring miso soup on a perfectly good bowl of rice. You'd be surprised what huge cultural taboos one can pull off with small gestures.

It is impossible to go through life affecting nothing. I'm a vegetarian "green" minded Pagan, and I am painfully aware that even my meager existence leaves a mark on this Earth and on the people around me, hard as I try for it not to. You will inadvertently step on people's toes in the course of life. And in this day and age you will inadvertently partake of another culture without understanding all of that culture (Chinese food anyone?) All we can do is try our best to be worldly mindful people, and treat other people how we would like to be treated.

Wait a minute, isn't that kinda what religion is about?

[Twinkle]

Are you really serious? You're really reaching to prove your point. Honestly what you're doing is taking the focus off the message...which is that self proclaimed eclectics pulling from cultures without proper understanding and respect is wrong....and is not true Eclecticism.

A screen name in this case hardly proves your point. Why don't you address the actual issue instead of trying to find something to demean the OP?

[Sabriel MoonStar]

Are you really serious? You're really reaching to prove your point. Honestly what you're doing is taking the focus off the message...which is that self proclaimed eclectics pulling from cultures without proper understanding and respect is wrong....and is not true Eclecticism.

A screen name in this case hardly proves your point. Why don't you address the actual issue instead of trying to find something to demean the OP?

If culture is really what needs defending, then why not defend all of culture? Not just religion? Culture is more then what people believe, which is what I was trying to get at since my first post in this thread.

People have been mixing bit of culture together since before eclectic Paganism was the in thing. Been to an ethnic restaurant lately? Or maybe seen another culture's art or music co-oped for an advertising campaign. People are co-opting culture everyday for much less meaningful reasons. Why not go after those people first? Not the people who for the most part, are attempting to be respectful. Most people I know are at least respectful to their own beliefs, no matter how many sources they come from.

The theme of the OPs statements seem come off as anti-eclectic then they seem to be about protecting culture. An overwhelming amount of eclectics in this thread have been showing they study and they care about the cultures they borrow from. But it never seems to be enough for recons like the OP. So you tell me, how much studying is enough? 5 books? An entire library? What secret standard are we not achieving here?

[juliaki]

@Twinkle

Well, given that I wrote a multipage response to the OP that I delivered via another means only to have it ignored, I figured I'd try to work with smaller examples of why it is not a good idea to paint with too wide a brush to see if we could build a discussion from that simple point.

In reality, there will always be someone out there who will be offended by some part of who you are, what you do, what you believe, etc. That's why it is unwise to say "eclectics are like this" or "pagans are like that". The OP believes that education is the answer to all of religion's ailments, and education may be useful in some contexts, however it isn't a panacea. The OP is willing to toss around the term "cultural theft" without saying what has been stolen from him. I point out that his own essay shows issues with a lack of education, but that gets ignored. I point out that some people might consider his behavior to be cultural theft, but that's ignored.

It's challenging to find what the motivation is behind this, when the OP also admits to not wanting to respect differing viewpoints. I can only guess that the desire is to preach some form of "I'm right, everyone else is stupid", which doesn't bode well for trying to convince people to come to his side. Keep in mind, I'm in agreement with some of the core concepts of the OP's message, but not in the way it is presented and the scope to which it blankets everyone and everything that it touches.

I'm also troubled by the term "self-proclaimed eclectic." Doesn't that go into an area that is often griped about regarding things like "self-proclaimed witch", "self-proclaimed pagan", "self-proclaimed priest/ess", or "self-proclaimed Wiccan"? Why put the emphasis on "self-proclaimed"? Is the implication that they can't even justify for certain that they're eclectic?

[Twinkle]

Is MoonStar your real last name, or is it just a screen name? Because I googled it and it's Native American...a Tribal Name. Sorry....you took it here when you started picking apart Screen Names for cultural theft.

[juliaki]

Is MoonStar your real last name, or is it just a screen name? Because I googled it and it's Native American...a Tribal Name. Sorry....you took it here when you started picking apart Screen Names for cultural theft.


Thank you for so eloquently proving the point that nearly anything could be seen as a form of cultural theft and thus showing that blanket statements more often than not provide sources for suffocation. Now... let's say that MoonStar knew that it was a Native American tribal name (thus providing education) but still chose to use it as a way to honor who that person is. Doesn't that prove that education wouldn't stop what could be considered by some to be cultural theft?

Is it cultural theft that I ate something that was described as Mexican food tonight even though I'm not Mexican and the food was actually something created in a modern Texas chain restaurant?

Where do you draw the line on what cultural theft encompasses and who decides to pass judgment about what is or is not cultural theft?

[Twinkle]

@Twinkle

Well, given that I wrote a multipage response to the OP that I delivered via another means only to have it ignored, I figured I'd try to work with smaller examples of why it is not a good idea to paint with too wide a brush to see if we could build a discussion from that simple point.

In reality, there will always be someone out there who will be offended by some part of who you are, what you do, what you believe, etc. That's why it is unwise to say "eclectics are like this" or "pagans are like that". The OP believes that education is the answer to all of religion's ailments, and education may be useful in some contexts, however it isn't a panacea. The OP is willing to toss around the term "cultural theft" without saying what has been stolen from him. I point out that his own essay shows issues with a lack of education, but that gets ignored. I point out that some people might consider his behavior to be cultural theft, but that's ignored.

It's challenging to find what the motivation is behind this, when the OP also admits to not wanting to respect differing viewpoints. I can only guess that the desire is to preach some form of "I'm right, everyone else is stupid", which doesn't bode well for trying to convince people to come to his side. Keep in mind, I'm in agreement with some of the core concepts of the OP's message, but not in the way it is presented and the scope to which it blankets everyone and everything that it touches.

I'm also troubled by the term "self-proclaimed eclectic." Doesn't that go into an area that is often griped about regarding things like "self-proclaimed witch", "self-proclaimed pagan", "self-proclaimed priest/ess", or "self-proclaimed Wiccan"? Why put the emphasis on "self-proclaimed"? Is the implication that they can't even justify for certain that they're eclectic?


Hi Juliaki! :)

I agree that the essay in this form detracts from what the OP is trying to say. I also agree that your constructive criticism would benefit the OP and the message being conveyed tremendously. I also have huge issues with broad generalizations, and desperately try to avoid it at all costs.

I don't know that respecting other viewpoints means that you have to agree with them.

I'm a stickler for labels, they mean something and imply certain things. If you're calling yourself an Eclectic, but not actually studying...then all you are is a "self proclaimed" eclectic. You're really nothing of the sort. And by "you", I mean the general "you" not you specifically.

I "get" what the OP is trying to say. I also know that this is a first attempt at an essay by a 16 year old who is frustrated with what he sees happening by those that are calling themselves Eclectic. I was surprised to see it posted here...but I do believe that the discussion here will be an invaluable learning experience for him.

I actually support him in his effort...and I applaud him for being a young man who is decidedly not fluffy. He's got a ways to go...but he is really much more ahead than some adults I have met.

[Twinkle]

Thank you for so eloquently proving the point that nearly anything could be seen as a form of cultural theft and thus showing that blanket statements more often than not provide sources for suffocation. Now... let's say that MoonStar knew that it was a Native American tribal name (thus providing education) but still chose to use it as a way to honor who that person is. Doesn't that prove that education wouldn't stop what could be considered by some to be cultural theft?

Is it cultural theft that I ate something that was described as Mexican food tonight even though I'm not Mexican and the food was actually something created in a modern Texas chain restaurant?

Where do you draw the line on what cultural theft encompasses and who decides to pass judgment about what is or is not cultural theft?


I think that pulling Aphrodite out of the Pantheon...and claiming that she was worshipped in a way that she wasn't historically, based upon "how you feel" is intellectually dishonest, and a form of cultural theft.


That is where I draw the line, personally. I can pass judgement on it, because I know how Aphrodite was worshipped historically, I know her epithets, I know her cult sites.

I can respect the fact that you feel that way about Aphrodite...but with no knowledge of the Goddess or where she came from or how she was worshipped...I can also say that that is not Eclecticism. I can say that that is "making it up as you go".

[juliaki]

Oh, I certainly agree that his efforts should be encouraged. I think that he could have at least of the challenges to his essay resolved by using words such as "many/some/few/those that I've seen", "it is my opinion/it has been my experience", and so on. I think he could have a quarter of the challenges resolved by a few more years of maturity and life experience along with writing experience....and as an editor, I know that it isn't always pleasant or fun, but even the most cruel rejection letter helps you grow as a writer. (And I know that from having written some of those rejection letters and receiving some of those rejection letters from other publishers.) The other quarter of the challenges would be resolved by simply asking "If someone called my sister this name, would I get angry?" It's hard to defend an essay when the way it is written even alienates the supporters of the issue, ya know? :weirdsmil

[Twinkle]

I do, Juliaki. :)

What I see is a passionate young man that has a good message . Yes, the essay needs work...and he is learning firsthand how the written word can provoke many responses.

This will come with time...and more experience with writing. As long as he's open to learning, I think he will do well.

That's jmho.

[ThePaganMafia]

My intention was not to insult. My intention was not to generalize. Sure it was inflammatory and it did have factual errors. Errors that should have been corrected by corss checking my sources for the facts for the first essay. At the very least corrected in the second essay which I neglected to do. At that point I was more interested in trying to reiterate my point then facts. Making the same mistake as alot of people my essay spoke against. My problem is not with actual Eclecticism itself which I admit I did generalize in both articles but with people who have no respect for tradition or culture who use the name eclectic. This point was in the middle of many inflammatory remarks and did not get across because of the way the essay was written. I wish I did write it better but at the time it was a rant over something I had gotten angered at a few weeks ago. Since the article was published Ive had to respond to dozens upon dozens of flames and people asking questions. Numerous debates in chatrooms. And as time grew on I became impatient and probably arrogant. My responses probably be came insulting. The intent in the original essay written those weeks ago was to vent and creat a dialogue on the problem of fluffyism and the disrepect of cultures in the Pagan community. I certainly did not mean to generalize or insult people even though the article was clearly insulting in many repects. Iam sorry for that and my many inflammatory and responses I have given.

[juliaki]

Can't speak for anyone else, but certainly apology accepted from where I sit.

What I suggest is that you let it go...take some time away to gather your thoughts....and (although this may sound silly) get a copy of the movie Fiddler on the Roof and watch it. Pay close attention to how tradition is dealt with in the movie, as I think it really would speak to some of the conflict that you're feeling.

[Twinkle]

My intention was not to insult. My intention was not to generalize. Sure it was inflammatory and it did have factual errors. Errors that should have been corrected by corss checking my sources for the facts for the first essay. At the very least corrected in the second essay which I neglected to do. At that point I was more interested in trying to reiterate my point then facts. Making the same mistake as alot of people my essay spoke against. My problem is not with actual Eclecticism itself which I admit I did generalize in both articles but with people who have no respect for tradition or culture who use the name eclectic. This point was in the middle of many inflammatory remarks and did not get across because of the way the essay was written. I wish I did write it better but at the time it was a rant over something I had gotten angered at a few weeks ago. Since the article was published Ive had to respond to dozens upon dozens of flames and people asking questions. Numerous debates in chatrooms. And as time grew on I became impatient and probably arrogant. My responses probably be came insulting. The intent in the original essay written those weeks ago was to vent and creat a dialogue on the problem of fluffyism and the disrepect of cultures in the Pagan community. I certainly did not mean to generalize or insult people even though the article was clearly insulting in many repects. Iam sorry for that and my many inflammatory and responses I have given.


I have no issues with you. You know I support you and want you to grow and learn from this.

I know the person you are, and I know that you would never deliberately go out to insult or hurt people.

Fix your essay. Correct the errors and re-write. Then re-post it. I believe you'll have a lot more people agreeing with you than flaming you. I think you have talent.

Just saying.

[ThePaganMafia]

Ill re-write it in a few months. I just started working on the Problems Within Reconstructionism article.

[Sabriel MoonStar]

Is MoonStar your real last name, or is it just a screen name? Because I googled it and it's Native American...a Tribal Name. Sorry....you took it here when you started picking apart Screen Names for cultural theft.

I was under the impression Native Americans has their own languages. Don't believe everything you Google. I am sure your heart was in the right place though, same as those worshipers of Aphrodite who think She's all rose petals and hearts.

I would like to point out I was responding to what the OP said when someone asked about his screen name being cultural theft, I was not the one who brought it up in the first place. I found his answer odd, sorry I wanted elaboration on what his definition of culture was, since it oddly seemed to only encompass religion and not the myriad of things that make up a culture.

But since the OP has since apologized and I'm not going to push that point anymore. But I think your post illustrates my point. I picked out that part of my screen name when I was 12. (I used to go by Sailor MoonStar. I was big into anime fan fics back then. Knew nothing about Native American culture.) It is so easy to step on the toes of others without knowing it. I am sure everyone who has posted in this thread has done it at least a few times.

I am sure we are all guilty, at one time or another of "demeaning" a culture without knowing it. The worlds getting to be a smaller place, theres more toes in the room to step on.

[Sabriel MoonStar]

Ill re-write it in a few months. I just started working on the Problems Within Reconstructionism article.

Ha! Well at least you're going for balance. Good luck on all your endeavors. If anything, you can at least say you made quite the splash with your first essay. ;)

[ThePaganMafia]

Sorry wasn't aware murder and crime was culture.

[Sabriel MoonStar]

Sorry wasn't aware murder and crime was culture.

No, but one could feel that since you tacked Pagan onto it that you felt Pagan's embraced those things.

One could feel insulted by anything. Even the most innocuous of things. I am sure there is someone out there who is insulted by the overuse of pink in my current avatar.

My point is that every action has the potential to insult someone somewhere. You can't live your life in fear of that. You will step on someones toes, and it might just be for misuse of cultural things, intentional or not. It was meant to be an example. One that seems to be taken very literally.

Which brings me back to full circle. Do you really think anyone meant for this to be about your screen name? I could care less what you call yourself.

[Lunacie]

And right there, that truly describes why even people who agree with some of the ideas behind what you're trying to say (such as myself) cannot side with you when it comes to what you've put in your essays at present.

Likewise, as you put out the energy that you don't care what other people have to say about this, that, or something else, the people that you're trying to "educate" likely won't care what you have to say because on some level they will recognize that there's no potential for mutual respect (even in the absence of agreement).

That is exactly what I've pointed out to others who rant about how the purity of their culture or tradition has been besmirched. It's just not an effective method of teaching or education.



Im suprised no one has made a point of how we need more education and more respect for culture and tradition. My articles point was that the facts need to be looked at before any mixing of religion is done and religion is far to precious to be torn asunder and matched together. But apparently that is beyond most of you people.

Once again I would like to point out that just because someone disagrees with you that doesn't mean they don't understand the point you're laboring to pound into them. Nor does it mean they are less intelligent than you. It simply means they don't agree. Their reasons for disagreeing with your viewpoint may be every bit as valid as your reasons for holding that point of view.



No actually most of us have agreed with most of what you state above, again and again through this thread. You don't seem to want to accept this though. Is this because in reality us eclectics refuse to be the cultural theives and vampires you want to believe we are?

Quoted For Truth :smileroll

I for one am growing very tired of all this scorn and mockery and narrow-sighted bigotry.

[Twinkle]

Wow. I'm really not seeing scorn, mockery or narrow sighted bigotry.

I'm seeing a 16 year old writing an essay talking about the abuse of the term Eclecticism.

[Eldawyn]

My intention was not to insult. My intention was not to generalize. Sure it was inflammatory and it did have factual errors. Errors that should have been corrected by corss checking my sources for the facts for the first essay. At the very least corrected in the second essay which I neglected to do. At that point I was more interested in trying to reiterate my point then facts. Making the same mistake as alot of people my essay spoke against. My problem is not with actual Eclecticism itself which I admit I did generalize in both articles but with people who have no respect for tradition or culture who use the name eclectic. This point was in the middle of many inflammatory remarks and did not get across because of the way the essay was written. I wish I did write it better but at the time it was a rant over something I had gotten angered at a few weeks ago. Since the article was published Ive had to respond to dozens upon dozens of flames and people asking questions. Numerous debates in chatrooms. And as time grew on I became impatient and probably arrogant. My responses probably be came insulting. The intent in the original essay written those weeks ago was to vent and creat a dialogue on the problem of fluffyism and the disrepect of cultures in the Pagan community. I certainly did not mean to generalize or insult people even though the article was clearly insulting in many repects. Iam sorry for that and my many inflammatory and responses I have given.


Wow. I'm impressed.

Most/Many people would just get very defensive and push their article further hoping to prove some sort of point or semblance of being "right."

I'm extremely impressed that you have *learned* something from all of this. Of course we've all heard "think before you speak." It is true online as well. And maybe even more so because of the ease that information travels.

Your "rant" was approached as a "researched article" because that is how you presented it. And that is how others responded to it. Which of course you realize now.

In any case... thank you for apologizing to all that were offended.

[Lunacie]

I was making a sweeping overgeneralization, similar to the ones PaganMafia has been making. Mostly I'm fed up with being told that we are all to dumb to understand the point, even though most of us have agreed with the basic premise, just not the delivery and the gross overgeneralization.


eta - I too appreciate the apology. It can be tricky presenting a rant online where people take what you have written quite literally, in some cases even when one has explained at the beginning of the rant that it's a rant although that usually helps somewhat. I think it's always good to preface a rant by explaining that one is frustrated or angry or whatever and they just want to rant about something. Quite different than lecturing people who often have even more experience than you do.
(generic "you")

[Novembers River]

Well I don't tread carefully if my essay is offensive to bad. If you don't think it's filled with positive energy thats not my problem. Iam not going to have respect for beliefs or people that destroy facts and demean culture and if you don't like it to bad.

I have to wonder if the point of this thread was to truly discuss eclecticism and cultural theft or simply to get a rise out of people.

If you're preaching to the choir your tactics may be fine, OP, but if you're really trying to get people to consider your arguement then the "I'm right and your wrong" approach will fail every time.

I agreed and disagreed with some of the OP's statements in the article, but at this point the thread seems fruitless.

[Novembers River]

My intention was not to insult. My intention was not to generalize. Sure it was inflammatory and it did have factual errors. Errors that should have been corrected by corss checking my sources for the facts for the first essay. At the very least corrected in the second essay which I neglected to do. At that point I was more interested in trying to reiterate my point then facts. Making the same mistake as alot of people my essay spoke against. My problem is not with actual Eclecticism itself which I admit I did generalize in both articles but with people who have no respect for tradition or culture who use the name eclectic. This point was in the middle of many inflammatory remarks and did not get across because of the way the essay was written. I wish I did write it better but at the time it was a rant over something I had gotten angered at a few weeks ago. Since the article was published Ive had to respond to dozens upon dozens of flames and people asking questions. Numerous debates in chatrooms. And as time grew on I became impatient and probably arrogant. My responses probably be came insulting. The intent in the original essay written those weeks ago was to vent and creat a dialogue on the problem of fluffyism and the disrepect of cultures in the People community. I certainly did not mean to generalize or insult people even though the article was clearly insulting in many repects. Iam sorry for that and my many inflammatory and responses I have given.

I honestly didn't make it to page 18 before I made my previous post. I believe it was page 14 where I gave up.

Good on you to take a second look and re-evaluate the essay. While it certainly does have many good points, the presentation could have been a bit less... harsh.

Thank you for the above post!

[Philosophia]

My intention was not to insult. My intention was not to generalize. Sure it was inflammatory and it did have factual errors. Errors that should have been corrected by corss checking my sources for the facts for the first essay. At the very least corrected in the second essay which I neglected to do. At that point I was more interested in trying to reiterate my point then facts. Making the same mistake as alot of people my essay spoke against. My problem is not with actual Eclecticism itself which I admit I did generalize in both articles but with people who have no respect for tradition or culture who use the name eclectic. This point was in the middle of many inflammatory remarks and did not get across because of the way the essay was written. I wish I did write it better but at the time it was a rant over something I had gotten angered at a few weeks ago. Since the article was published Ive had to respond to dozens upon dozens of flames and people asking questions. Numerous debates in chatrooms. And as time grew on I became impatient and probably arrogant. My responses probably be came insulting. The intent in the original essay written those weeks ago was to vent and creat a dialogue on the problem of fluffyism and the disrepect of cultures in the Pagan community. I certainly did not mean to generalize or insult people even though the article was clearly insulting in many repects. Iam sorry for that and my many inflammatory and responses I have given.

Thank you for the apology. On behalf of myself, I accept it.

However, please remember that there are a lot of people on this board who are incredibly intelligent and can answer questions that you or others may have concerning their paths (if it doesn't too personal and private). There are specific forums and possibly hundreds of threads on MW that can help anybody, especially about paths, history, etc.. I would hope that it'll be better just to peruse the forums and contributing in threads, similar to this one, but thats just me. :)

Personally, I have found that this thread (and many others like it) have allowed people to debate, discuss, and bring forth opinions that can be challenging and rewarding at the same time.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Where I saw scorn , and arrogance , was in the 4th
line of his opening post , where the "he he " came in...

Pagan Mafia...you show promise...you at least apologized

Better than those who can not even see problems in your
original presentation...this is one of the major problems ,
with this type of exchange...those who are so self righteous
in their reconstructionist , or historical focus , they are
willing to encourage others to be rude , or to be blind to their
rudeness...there is nothing wrong with having strong , and
intense feelings...I strongly , and intensely , hold no respect
for religion...for people...yes...but dogmatic principles...lol...

No...not at all...but , I do not set out to antogonize , but seek
common ground , even where there seems to be none...and still
in the end of it , there isn't...so mote it be...you , and others ,
may not respect my tradition...and I am using that word , in
full knowledge of what it means...to me , and to others...

Yet , I respect you , for your call to study , hard work , and
devotion to one's tradition , whatever it may be...that , is the
sign of one who shall attain...yet...the path of the heart , is
just as important , as the path of the mind...and to place history ,
or a reconstructionist path , over compassion , love , and true
understanding , is a false path , which shall end in one's demise...

Keep an open heart , and mind , during your long walk...not blind
yet uniting knowledge , and caring , into a truth , which shall
carry you , and hopefully others far , along the road to wisdom...

Blessings...be well...may the wind be at your back...

[childofbast]

I consider myself more of a liberal Recon. It's more me - it works for me. I don't agree with everything about eclectic Paganism. However, I don't feel like I can just point my finger and say "I'm right, you're wrong." I wouldn't want anyone doing it to me.

I watched the new Elizabeth movie that came out a few days ago with a friend. It really got me thinking about history and religion. There's been so much violence because of religion. In that movie, the Protestants and Catholics were killing each other. Granted, it wasn't quite as simple as I'm making it out to be, but religion played a role and, when you really think about it, Catholics and Protestants are still Christian. Yes, there are differences. I realize that. Some of them are quite big. But they are still Christian - and they were killing each other.

It got me thinking about this thread. I've had minor disputes with eclectic friends, but never anything serious. We eventually just shrug it off and realize that we can't change each other. I'm not condoning laziness. I know some eclectic Pagans who are very lazy. They have told me that they don't like to read and that history and even mythology bore them. *wince* Then they try to act like experts about a culture or pantheon. I can't stand that, and I can't stand people spreading lies. I think most of us can agree on that. But I know many more eclectic Pagans who are very well read. And even if they don't like to read as much, they try to learn in other ways.

I guess my point is that it's really bad to generalize. Just like all recons aren't racist elitists, all eclectics aren't lazy rapists.

That isn't to say I'm brushing of the "grab bag" notion of eclecticism. I'm not going to say it's right or wrong. I have my own beliefs and, like I said before, I can't push them on anyone. I just know that it is a very touchy topic, especially among such groups as Native Americans. The topic is quite complicated and there doesn't seem to be a right answer. I don't think any of us can offer a truly conclusive resolution at this time.

But I would really hate to see the Pagan community torn apart by this issue. Such a huge thing as a war probably wouldn't happen - but then again, you never know. I just hope that we can just accept that we are all on different paths. We do not have to agree with each other, but we can not shove our beliefs down each others' throats. We should be able to politely discuss and celebrate our differences, even if they may occasionally make us wince.

Hope this all made sense.

~Grey

[Vigdisdotter]

I never said everyone who did it was!

Actually, you did, in the phrasing you employed. I pointed this out to in the last go round and you ignored me. It's that phrasing, the implication that this is a pervasive thing that eclectics in general do, that got you "flamed" previously.

By turning a blind eye to that point, you are ensuring that you will get similar responces in the future. At this point, I'm beginning to wonder if that's what you are looking for.

[Vigdisdotter]

This point was in the middle of many inflammatory remarks and did not get across because of the way the essay was written.

So are you going to post a re-write?


Iam sorry for that and my many inflammatory and responses I have given.

Thank you. However, I myself am not after an apology. I'd rather see you address the points made to you, or better yet a re-written article.

[lamoka]

Your apology is noted...

Words have power.. if you choose to write.. if you choose to speak.. choose your words wisely..
they are your chance to be heard.. they are your chance to make a difference..

it's the old adage "honey or vinegar"..

I have more respect for those who think fast, but talk slowly than all the degrees put together..

education does not equal intelligence in my book..
(I am college educated so don't get all up in arms.. it's not the booklearning that taught me what is important in life and that is what I am basing my personal opinion on..)
blessings
aho

[SwordsFlameSong]

Wow. I'm really not seeing scorn, mockery or narrow sighted bigotry.

I'm seeing a 16 year old writing an essay talking about the abuse of the term Eclecticism.


I am seeing a young man who better keep writing. He has a great deal of talent.

[juliaki]

Sorry wasn't aware murder and crime was culture.

Not that I want to tangent the thread off in yet another way, but this would be another example of how the use of words can vary between people (and even within cultures) . Is the death penalty murder? How about abortion? Eating meat? Soldiers killing soldiers on the battlefield? (These are rhetorical questions...no need to answer.) Even within "American culture", you will find people who consider those to be murder. Cultures also have different behaviors that might be considered a crime depending on your own viewpoint. The treatment of women and homosexuals in conservative Islamic countries can be seen as a crime in more liberal cultures. The idea of personal property in a culture where stealing is an acceptable form of social advancement would be a crime in another culture. In America, we do have some crimes that are considered "victimless crimes" and laws on the book that criminalize things that even the people bound by the laws wouldn't see as criminal (case in point, look at all those books and web sites about funny laws, like you can't tie your elephant to a fire hydrant).

Going through life, you'll have a lot of opportunity to take offense at a great many things. My advice is to be selective about what you choose to take as insult, or you'll spend your whole time being eaten alive by the offenses of the world. Ask yourself "Does this directly harm me? If so, can I remove myself from being harmed? If not, how is the best way to remove harm from me?" Sometimes that may be writing a rant and taking it on the chin once it is published. Sometimes it is writing a private rant and sharing it only with people you know who will agree with you. Sometimes it's going out and having a huge dish of ice cream and making fun of those people who have ticked you off over a bowl of mint chocolate chip. Reactions to life situations, just like spiritual paths, are not one size fits all. :)

[David19]

So are you going to post a re-write?

I think he said, he'll rewrite it in a few months, he's got busy right now (ThePaganMafia, feel free to correct me?).

[ThePaganMafia]

Yes it may be a few months depending on how I feel and what Im doing.

[Amythyst]

Imnot going to argue on the humor of my SN when we are talking about RELIGION. Its quite quite different.


No, it's not really different...it still pertains to "culural theft" and being disrespectful to a certain race of people.

[Amythyst]

I don't really care what other people have to say of it. My SN has no relevance in this discussion of the article.

LOL!...This is why I don't generally care to get involved in online discussions with anyone under the age of 20.

I already have a whole houseful of my own kidlings who mouth off enough as it is. I can almost see this kid stamping his foot.

[Amythyst]

Well, I have finally waded through the last five pages of this thread...

My opinion:

Less fanaticism, thank you--

And thicker skins needed, for everyone-- myself included.

Tomorrow will be another day and there will be new battles on the horizon...and I'm sure there will be a plethora of warriors to take on the challenge.

[ThePaganMafia]

I take it you were not one of the ones who accepted my apology.

[fay]

One of the main things that the original post and the subsequent 197 (count 'em) posts made me think of is theatre. Ok, I know that I am biased what with being a theatre student, but there are often huge debates about the work of some practitioners beginning particularly in the 20th century involving mulitculturalism, cross ethnicity etc. Some say that it is a great way to diversify the work, to bring something new and interesting, to allow it to reach a greater number of people, to give it a more universal meaning. Others say that it is meaningless mix of traditions and practices that does not give any respect to the culture which it came from. In the same way that some might ask whether one can follow a Kemetic panetheon without being Egyptian, there are those that ask whether one can perfom Noh theatre if you are not Japanese.

I think that it is interesting that these notions of cultural homogeny are not limited to one aspect of culture? Does anyone know of any other examples?

[Cat]

I certainly did not mean to generalize or insult people even though the article was clearly insulting in many repects. Iam sorry for that and my many inflammatory and responses I have given.


I meant to say this before, but got distracted. Thanks for apologizing. That's very big of you. I look forward to seeing more of your work.

[Phoenix Blue]

LOL!...This is why I don't generally care to get involved in online discussions with anyone under the age of 20.

I already have a whole houseful of my own kidlings who mouth off enough as it is. I can almost see this kid stamping his foot.
ADMIN MODE

You may have told your children, "If you don't have something respectful to say, don't say anything at all." Or maybe you haven't. In any case, wisdom is not necessarily a function of age, and ageism is disrespectful in the extreme.

[Twinkle]

Not to churn the waters up even more...but I do have a question....

Why do the Reconstructionists seem to be the ones (at least from some of these responses on this thread) that get blamed for making Eclecticism a "bad thing?"

As a Recon...I don't have issues with Eclecticism...I really don't. I just don't like intellectual dishonesty and laziness.

[Phoenix Blue]

As a Recon...I don't have issues with Eclecticism...I really don't. I just don't like intellectual dishonesty and laziness.
Aside from the persecution complex that pervades Paganism in general? I'd say that a lot of self-styled "eclectics" actually fit beneath the "intellectual dishonesty/laziness" umbrella, recognize this and are defensive as a result.

Says PB, an eclectic Pagan who does not tread on others' gods.

[Philosophia]

Why do the Reconstructionists seem to be the ones (at least from some of these responses on this thread) that get blamed for making Eclecticism a "bad thing?"

*shrugs* I haven't read that on this thread.

[Twinkle]

It was one of those beautiful posts written in poetic stanza. It called out Reconstructionists, specifically. There were others as well. I suppose I could go back and quote, but I was trying not to antagonize or attack anyone specifically.

Trust me, I didn't pull it out of the air. :)

[Philosophia]

It was one of those beautiful posts written in poetic stanza. It called out Reconstructionists, specifically. There were others as well. I suppose I could go back and quote, but I was trying not to antagonize or attack anyone specifically.

Trust me, I didn't pull it out of the air. :)

Well I think I found those posts. The way I look at it, its the same problem eclectics have. People are generalizing all reconstructionists into one little stereotype.

[Twinkle]

Hmm....I'm processing. I don't think it's so much about stereotypes. Reconstructionists are known for placing importance on historical accuracy and the use of primary source material and scholarly works to reconstruct ancient practices.

Because of that, they are able to spot bs and fakelore. Because they care so much about historical accuracy, and base their beliefs on ancient practices....when they see someone that is in the dark about a culture and a deity that they're pulling from...the question of respect and intellectual integrity comes up.

That's not a stereotype...that's who we are. Now...if you said we're all wearing glasses with a nose in a book, had no social skills and were all unattractive...that would be a stereotype.

[juliaki]

Correct me if I'm wrong on this (it may be the bias induced by the small circle of reconstructionists that I know), but aren't most reconstructionists also equally as willing to only pick out the practices that they like and not practice those rites that they don't personally like? I know that a lot of the practices that are being reconstructed have a long history of animal and/or human sacrifice, for instance, but I don't know of many reconstructionists who opt to participate in those sacred rites. Do they do it and just not talk about it?

[Philosophia]

Hmm....I'm processing. I don't think it's so much about stereotypes. Reconstructionists are known for placing importance on historical accuracy and the use of primary source material and scholarly works to reconstruct ancient practices.

Because of that, they are able to spot bs and fakelore. Because they care so much about historical accuracy, and base their beliefs on ancient practices....when they see someone that is in the dark about a culture and a deity that they're pulling from...the question of respect and intellectual integrity comes up.

That's not a stereotype...that's who we are. Now...if you said we're all wearing glasses with a nose in a book, had no social skills and were all unattractive...that would be a stereotype.

However, the reconstructionists I think they are talking about are the ones who are so rigid and without flexibility that they knowingly put down other paths they don't follow without knowing the people involved. I think its the stereotype that many reconstructionists are intellectually inflexible (especially during discussions when they have been proved incorrect and become very personal), isolationistic to an extreme, and are very insulting of things they don't agree with (i.e. particular scholars, traditions, etc.). There is even a minority that are also intellectually dishonest and lazy in their reconstructionist paths as well.

Now, I have met many that are like this (even on MW) and it is an unfortunate stereotype that is related to reconstructionism.

[ThePaganMafia]

If they told you about the sacrifices they would have to kill you. hehe.

[Twinkle]

Correct me if I'm wrong on this (it may be the bias induced by the small circle of reconstructionists that I know), but aren't most reconstructionists also equally as willing to only pick out the practices that they like and not practice those rites that they don't personally like? I know that a lot of the practices that are being reconstructed have a long history of animal and/or human sacrifice, for instance, but I don't know of many reconstructionists who opt to participate in those sacred rites. Do they do it and just not talk about it?


Reconstructionism is not Traditionalism. We are a modern religious movement (for lack of a better term) that reconstructs ancient practices while acknowledging the fact that we live in the 21st Century. We adjust our practices accordingly. There is a lot of debate in the Hellenic Community regarding animal sacrifice. To reconstruct it properly would be almost impossible in the urban world. I think that it will be eventually done, if it hasn't already....but as I said, there is a lot to it, and it must be done properly. Reconstructionists have a lot of personal innovation in their practice as well. Instead of animal sacrifice, some may just choose to go to the butcher and buy beef and sacrifice it in that way. We're not trying to BE an ancient culture, just reconstruct the practices to the best of our ability with the information that we have, and within our own time period.

[juliaki]

Would a reliance on "personal innovation" to try and accomplish spiritual goals through means that are not in line with actual ancient practices be some form of eclectic reconstructionist movement? (Only instead of combining say Egyptian and Norse practices, the eclectic recon is combining 21st century American practices with ancient Roman practices.) If not, how would the difference be seen? (And on that note...g'nite ya'll...it's great to have these evening thoughtfests.

[Twinkle]

Would a reliance on "personal innovation" to try and accomplish spiritual goals through means that are not in line with actual ancient practices be some form of eclectic reconstructionist movement? (Only instead of combining say Egyptian and Norse practices, the eclectic recon is combining 21st century American practices with ancient Roman practices.) If not, how would the difference be seen? (And on that note...g'nite ya'll...it's great to have these evening thoughtfests.


While there is personal innovation and "wiggle" room, there is still a Reconstructionist methodology. An emphasis on personal innovation without that methodology would not be considered Reconstructionism. To try and accomplish spiritual goals that are not in line with actual ancient practice imo would be Eclecticism. I would be hesitant to say that that it would Eclectic Reconstructionism.

I would say that the example you gave would be a Roman Pagan, not a practitioner of Religio Romana, or Eclectic Religio Romana.

In other words...there are definite parameters of what is Reconstructionism, and what is not.

I have met a man that is Reconstructionist in his methodology. Because he worships Gods from the Greek ,Norse , and Chinese Pantheons...he crosses pantheons, changes his worship and his paradigm to be culturally and historically correct when worshipping the gods from those pantheons. He identifies as an Eclectic Pagan. Reconstructionist methodology in practicing Eclecticism is something I find to be a good thing.

There are many Eclectic pagans that I admire because they choose to use Reconstructionist methodology. Their practice may have more of an emphasis on gnosis or even personal innovation than reconstruction of ancient practice and belief...but they know very well the gods, pantheon and culture they are pulling from. These people have my respect.

I hope I expressed what I was trying to say adequately. It's early, and I feel like I might have been rambling.

[lamoka]

ADMIN MODE

You may have told your children, "If you don't have something respectful to say, don't say anything at all." Or maybe you haven't. In any case, wisdom is not necessarily a function of age, and ageism is disrespectful in the extreme.

Not to disrespect you or your position here..
a temper tantrum is a temper tantrum, regardless of age.. (when I was a cna, there were elderly that could throw one that would put my four year old to shame!)
op has admitted to some errors in his posting, the tone of which would lead one to question the lack of life experience and/or lack of ability to control emotions, which both would be considered in relation to youth..
his ability to apologize speaks to his having learned from this exchange which leads to wisdom and temperance.
Ageism is disrespectful.. calling the kettle "black", when that is in fact its color, is to point out the obvious..
blessings
aho

[Autumn]

I remember my initial reaction when I first understood that there were practices and faiths surrounding these deities and that one had to exercise respect for that along one's spiritual path. I had a long inner struggle over my "internet name" Autumn Moonfire as it related to aboriginal Americans. Then I began to understand that word names appear worldwide and since I wasn't translating it into a language not my own and not tying it to anything else that didn't belong to me, it was simply a word name. Then I had to tackle the issue of Buddha and Kwan Yin who's statues once graced my altar. They came to be there for two reasons, one being that I am an Asiaphile, the other reason was that I could lay hands to the statues in Montreal whereas at the time I acquired them I had no idea how to find more appropriate ones. When I came to understand how inappropriate it was I bought goddess and god statuettes that could represent many possibilities and, being modern, did not step on any one culture.

In the process I came to understand that as an eclectic I needed to not publish my work nor teach it without also teaching any students that there were, and sometimes still are, cultures who worship these deities and they need to be very respectful of that. However I don't have any students. I do know that there was a time I could have written the OP's essay. I am also sure that the original poster will come to a more flexible understanding of eclecticism in time, just as I have.

I have to thank the Recons who showed me better sources too! I also have to say, while Llywellyn publishes a lot of drek they also publish some good things and they were publishing such books at a time when most other publishing houses wouldn't touch them with a 25' pole. I'm willing to bet that the first book about paganism many (not all) of us read had that little crescent moon on the spine!

[cesara]

Wow. Though my opinion is most likely not going to be a popular one, I will share it, anyway.

The initial essay is ripe with errors and ideas purported as truth with no evidence. I'm glad that the OP has decided to go back and modify it, though the root idea is flawed to begin with.

What has yet to be said is that the idea behind the essay is dependent on the idea that ancient/historical religion was practiced correctly. In fact, all recon paths depend on this idea. Do we know that the Gods of any pantheon were happy with the practices of their adherents? No.

The obsession by recons to reconstruct the past might even be seen as being culturally disrespectful as past adherents worked hard to pass on new and interesting ideas to future generations only to have their hard work minimized by those who would rather look backward instead of forward.

But, even that is all about culture....not about religious belief.

Belief isn't something you choose. Belief happens.

Enjoying and appreciating reconstructed religious practice is one thing....but if you are serious about your spirituality historical reconstruction will be a secondary concern to your true beliefs.

[Twinkle]

I certainly can't speak for all Recon religions, but I would say that within the Hellenic culture there was actually no word for religion. The religion was so intertwined with the culture that it's actually difficult to tell what was religious, and what was cultural.

The Hellenic Recons are lucky...we actually do have quite a bit of material, primary sources, archaeological evidence and so on to pull from that can give us a very good idea of how to reconstruct ancient practice. Where information is lacking, we compare with other cultures and make an educated "guess". Is it an exact thing? Absolutely not. But we are working with what we have.

Hellenic belief...following a Hellenic path is very much spiritual. We worship and practice as we do because we are able to reason it to BE true. It's a common misconception that Recons are not spiritual. In fact...I am highly spiritual. I love my gods with everything that I am. I accept my personal gnosis as being personal to me. Practice is different. Hellenic Reconstructionism is an orthopraxy. While personal perception of the gods may differ...practice is the same.

[ThePaganMafia]

It is true that some recons do obsess over historical details to satisfy their ego and foregoing all spirituality involved which creates a rift in the Recon community why is the subject for my next essay. Huge Egos and Why Im Intellectually Superior: A Look at the Problems Within Reconstructionism. Kinda of a long name but it fits.

[cesara]

Thanks for your post, Twinkle.


I certainly can't speak for all Recon religions, but I would say that within the Hellenic culture there was actually no word for religion. The religion was so intertwined with the culture that it's actually difficult to tell what was religious, and what was cultural.
Absolutely.


The Hellenic Recons are lucky...we actually do have quite a bit of material, primary sources, archaeological evidence and so on to pull from that can give us a very good idea of how to reconstruct ancient practice. Where information is lacking, we compare with other cultures and make an educated "guess". Is it an exact thing? Absolutely not. But we are working with what we have.
Yes, the Hellenic Recons have much more to work with, than say, Celtic Recons. And yes, all Recons work with what they have.


Hellenic belief...following a Hellenic path is very much spiritual. We worship and practice as we do because we are able to reason it to BE true.
I would hope that any spiritual practice would be reasoned to be true before one adheres to it. ;)



It's a common misconception that Recons are not spiritual. In fact...I am highly spiritual. I love my gods with everything that I am. I accept my personal gnosis as being personal to me.
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to insinuate that Recons were not spiritual. What I did, however, mean to express is that personal spirituality should be first, while accurate reconstruction of historical religion should be a secondary consideration.



Practice is different. Hellenic Reconstructionism is an orthopraxy. While personal perception of the gods may differ...practice is the same.
Correct practice in Hellenism didn't always exist. It was created and modified over time. Who decided what was correct? What benchmark did they use to do so? Why?

Where do you, as an Hellenic Pagan draw the line between orthopraxis and the modifications of ancient practice that formed Hellenic orthopraxy in the first place? What if Hellenic orthopraxy has been pissing off the gods for years?

What would the ancient Greeks say to a contemporary Hellenic Pagan? Would they be honored that their religious practice was reclaimed? Or would they be surprised that contemporary adherents didn't desire to move beyond the past?

There were many thinkers in ancient Greece....all of them looking to the future and striving to expand their knowledge base and understanding of the world. Even back then, there were people who asked questions about God....people like Epicurus who said:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

I would think that they would be happy to see that all their hard work contributed to the contemporary world in many ways, but they may also be offended that some choose to ignore their strides and encompass old ideas.

[Twinkle]

I'm enjoying this conversation, Cesara...thank you.

I think the decision to follow a Hellenic Reconstructionist path is a personal one. I value historical and cultural accuracy....I also follow my gnosis, but it doesn't trump correct (traditional) practice.

Because of my own personal feelings, I feel that the best path for me is Hellenic Reconstruction. Those that value their gnosis over practice would probably not find Hellenic Reconstruction to their liking...and that's OK. One is not better than the other...they are just different.

We really can't know what the gods like or dislike. I suppose this is where personal gnosis comes into play. For example, my personal feeling is that Hermes likes crystallized ginger as an offering. That is not proven historically, but my personal gnosis tells me so. So...I offer Hermes the ginger, in the correct way. This is an acceptable practice for the Hellenic Recon. The Ancient Greeks offered what they had, they shared with the gods...so as a Recon, I don't see anything wrong with offering tobacco, or chocolate. See what I'm saying? The Ancient Greeks didn't view the gods in the same way from city state to city state. And that's fine....we can see from their epithets that they were viewed in many different aspects. As Recons, we can do the same, even create new epithets if we were so inclined.

I'm not saying that my way is the only way or the best way. I'm saying that it's the best way for ME....and probably some others who feel the same as I do.

What I am saying is that regardless of what the gods like or dislike, they are still worthy of respect. After all, they are Gods. Part of showing respect is to understand them as they were worshipped, the culture they came from.

I don't believe that that is out of line.

[Juniper138]

It is true that some recons do obsess over historical details to satisfy their ego and foregoing all spirituality involved which creates a rift in the Recon community why is the subject for my next essay. Huge Egos and Why Im Intellectually Superior: A Look at the Problems Within Reconstructionism. Kinda of a long name but it fits.


Be careful you do not make the same mistake writing this as you did with your attack on Eclectics.

I must admit, as someone who has been a practicing pagan for 13 years, how can anyone your age and with your level of experience have any good idea of what truly goes on in other people's heads, in their private practice, and the pagan community.
Do you really have all the facts, the knowledge and experience to generalize so broadly?
Have you been to different countries and interacted with enough different pagan communities to think you know enough to place such labels?
Just how many Eclectics do you know, and how long and hard have you studied their practice?
How many Recons do you know, and how throughly have you studied their practice?

High school is not the world. The internet is not either.

I have traveled across North America, I have practiced paganism for 13 years, I have been in and out of many pagan communities, and I cannot claim to have the knowledge, understanding, empathy and RIGHT to place labels, generalizations and point fingers.

I feel no one I have ever met has the expertise and ability to make such statements about other people's spirituality.

It is one thing to say that many of the Recons or Eclectics you know personally are such a way. It is another to say that some problem in your community or groups of friends is prevalent in all the world of paganism.

Please refrain from writing in anger, or if you do, hold onto that article for a couple of weeks before you share it with the world. Trust me, this is good advice.

Everyone needs to stop assuming that the one or few "so and sos" you know are representative of everyone who walks a similar path, please _whistle_

[Juniper138]

It is true that some recons do obsess over historical details to satisfy their ego and foregoing all spirituality involved which creates a rift in the Recon community why is the subject for my next essay. Huge Egos and Why Im Intellectually Superior: A Look at the Problems Within Reconstructionism. Kinda of a long name but it fits.

How about writing "Huge Egos and Why Im Intellectually Superior: A Look at the Problems Within Humanity." It would be more apt. As the whole problem of the arrogance and "my besom is bigger than yours" is a human thing, not just a problem within the pagan community.

[Twinkle]

I can say that he frequents a board where quite a bit of education goes on. He presents these essays for input and clarification. He unfortunately posted it here without actually making any of the changes suggested to him....so I can understand why you would be asking the questions.

For a young man he's quite extraordinary with his knowledge and ability to reason.

Of course, you don't have to accept what I'm saying...but I've known this young man for over a year.

[Twinkle]

How about writing "Huge Egos and Why Im Intellectually Superior: A Look at the Problems Within Humanity." It would be more apt. As the whole problem of the arrogance and "my besom is bigger than yours" is a human thing, not just a problem within the pagan community.


Meh. He's writing for a pagan audience...and is wanting the article to talk about Reconstructionism, specifically.

[LostSheep]

my next essay. Huge Egos and Why Im Intellectually Superior. I like the title. A little Nietzschean.

[ThePaganMafia]

The article isn't going to be an attack on Recons. It's going to be an article on whats dividing people in the Reconstructionist community.

[Twinkle]

That's true, Tomas. He did. :)

[juliaki]

Just the editor in me coming out to play...

If you're writing about a particular group, organization, or belief system, it would be useful if you stated how long you've been part of that group, organization, or belief system. It also would be useful if you mentioned in you bio what sort of professional credentials (membership in organizations, status within a tradition, training, etc.) you bring to the table.

Without any of that, you're already starting from a disadvantage in the mind of most readers. If you're not a recon, are a recon who has been a solitary practitioner (maybe with a little bit of interaction online, but nothing else), or are new to the recon path, why would I expect you to know all the ins and outs and the nuances of the larger recon culture?

Honestly, if you're an outsider looking in to point out flaws and divisions in something that you aren't a part of or haven't been a part of for long, your essay would have as much value from an educational standpoint as Pat Robertson's 700 Club statement about why witchcraft is eeeevil. ;)

Why not go out and have some life experiences and try to "think globally, act locally"?

[skilly-nilly]

It is true that some recons do obsess over historical details to satisfy their ego and foregoing all spirituality involved which creates a rift in the Recon community why is the subject for my next essay. Huge Egos and Why Im Intellectually Superior: A Look at the Problems Within Reconstructionism. Kinda of a long name but it fits.

As a ReConstructionist----I love it!

My personal term is McTat---More Celtic ThAn Thou.

I don't think that age or length of time as a Pagan are necessarily important (I've been a Pagan longer than many posters here have been alive but I don't think it gives me extra points), I think the ability to formulate cogent and interesting thoughts and make good connections between ideas and understand the ideas presented by others are what's important.

I'm looking forward to more essays.

[Twinkle]

Unless you're Asatru....most recons are cloistered, solitary and most of the interaction is online.

Just saying.

[juliaki]

So if the only interaction that recons have with one another is online, and their practices are solitary and not seen by one another, how do recons know for sure what each other are doing enough to criticize each other?

And if they're only interacting online, wouldn't the solution if they're having issues with each other be simply to log off the computer and go back to the books and solitary practices that wouldn't have desire to butt heads?

I think the area I live in is unique....I'm pretty sure I've heard of some recon groups meeting around here somewhere.

[Twinkle]

So if the only interaction that recons have with one another is online, and their practices are solitary and not seen by one another, how do recons know for sure what each other are doing enough to criticize each other?

And if they're only interacting online, wouldn't the solution if they're having issues with each other be simply to log off the computer and go back to the books and solitary practices that wouldn't have desire to butt heads?

I think the area I live in is unique....I'm pretty sure I've heard of some recon groups meeting around here somewhere.


1. Because we communicate? We share ideas and information. We discuss...we butt heads.

2. If the ultimate goal of reconstructing a practice is to make it a thriving public religion (like the Asatru), then no...logging off is not the answer. Those that wish to continue to be solitary can certainly do so....but there are some in the Hellenic Reconstructionist community (like myself) that would like to stop reconstructing and move it forward into the public.

[Twinkle]

I think I may have come off as snotty in my last post. I apologize, that is not my intent. I'm multitasking in my real life right now.

[David19]

It is true that some recons do obsess over historical details to satisfy their ego and foregoing all spirituality involved which creates a rift in the Recon community why is the subject for my next essay. Huge Egos and Why Im Intellectually Superior: A Look at the Problems Within Reconstructionism. Kinda of a long name but it fits.

That's quite a cool title, like others have said, I'm looking forward to reading more of your essays.

[ThePaganMafia]

Thanks. Im looking forward to finishing it.

[childofbast]

This is kind of related since people are talking about ways to improve the essay...

But I really want to see better citations as a whole within the Pagan community. I just did a presentation on Samhain at my local group and some people were shocked that I made my bibliography known. They snickered at my "good college habits", but I'm sorry, it's part of good research.

Granted, I know a majority of the essay presented is an opinion paper, but citations are always good so people don't think you're just pulling things out of thin air.

[juliaki]

Something to consider about the scope of the essay.... if the overwhelming majority of recons are solitary practitioners, then perhaps the essay should be about why recons can't get along with other recons in online settings. For all we know, they might get along just fine if they got together in person, but people in general tend to be more snarky and more argumentative online than they would ever be in real life.

[juliaki]

Granted, I know a majority of the essay presented is an opinion paper, but citations are always good so people don't think you're just pulling things out of thin air.

Absolutely agree. Even in an opinion paper, I do like knowing where people are coming from, and part of that would include what sample size their opinion is based on. I could say that all people from Nigeria are cheats and crooks, but if I'm basing that whole opinion on knowing one person who was a cheat and crook who happened to be from Nigeria (and doing some sort of e-mail scam), then people would be unwise to put much stock in my opinion.

(And a friendly shout out to all the very gracious non-con-artists from Nigeria!)

[ThePaganMafia]

Im very good friends with the Prince of Nigeria and hes always saying how tired he is of being called a con artist....lol.

But Ill make a bibliography etc.etc. etc. and do a ton of research before I put it down on paper.

[cesara]

Twinkle,
So as to not siderail this thread I started a thread for my Recon Questions (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=171164). I hope that you will join me. :)

[Kittee]

Thank you and its applied to all.
All are correct, for themselves.
Its when people place their truth onto others that the prob starts.

If we just live our own truth and let others live theirs, without judgement, there is no reason to belittle another.

All paths are right if your following your own truths. But they are your own, no one else's and thus no right exist to say what is right or wrong for others.

Its not tolerance thats needed these days, its true acceptance of individuality.

This may be 18pages in and 3 days too late but I had to quote this. After reading this thread I could NOT have expressed my opinion better than Shanti.

[Juniper138]

He said "some Recons".

And what does "some" mean? Two or three? A dozen? Hundreds? Nearly all?

[Juniper138]

Just the editor in me coming out to play...

If you're writing about a particular group, organization, or belief system, it would be useful if you stated how long you've been part of that group, organization, or belief system. It also would be useful if you mentioned in you bio what sort of professional credentials (membership in organizations, status within a tradition, training, etc.) you bring to the table.

Without any of that, you're already starting from a disadvantage in the mind of most readers. If you're not a recon, are a recon who has been a solitary practitioner (maybe with a little bit of interaction online, but nothing else), or are new to the recon path, why would I expect you to know all the ins and outs and the nuances of the larger recon culture?

Honestly, if you're an outsider looking in to point out flaws and divisions in something that you aren't a part of or haven't been a part of for long, your essay would have as much value from an educational standpoint as Pat Robertson's 700 Club statement about why witchcraft is eeeevil. ;)

Why not go out and have some life experiences and try to "think globally, act locally"?

QFT!!!

(sorry for the double post)

[Juniper138]

I think it's common sense what he was implying.

Then I guess I lack common sense.

[Lunacie]

And what does "some" mean? Two or three? A dozen? Hundreds? Nearly all?

In general, don't people say "few" when they mean two or three -fewer than 10%? Don't they say "most" when they mean nearly all? Therefore when they say "some" they mean more than "few" and less than "most" eh?

Or have I had it wrong all these years? :huh:

[Juniper138]

LOL thats what I was wondering.
Plus, saying "some men prefer blonds" (as an example) is pretty darn broad and generalist.

[Lunacie]

If Recons are like the rest of the Pagan community, it's probably pretty hard to come up with any more specific figures than "few", "some" and "most". ;)

[Juniper138]

If Recons are like the rest of the Pagan community, it's probably pretty hard to come up with any more specific figures than "few", "some" and "most". ;)

Thats my point entirely, how can you write or speak of a group when all you can really do is generalize?

[Twinkle]

Umm....."some", "few", or "most" is an attempt made to make a statement about a group not all inclusive, or in other words...make broad generalizations.

That's really pretty obvious, and I'm really surprised that you are willing to take the discussion of words like "some", "few", or "most" as broad generalizations. If that's the case, there would be no way to discuss anything at all.

[Phoenix Blue]

And what does "some" mean? Two or three? A dozen? Hundreds? Nearly all?
Just the ones who're easily offended.

[Juniper138]

I hope you're being facetious.

I was trying to be cute.

PheonixBlue....I'm not sure what you mean?

[TheWhiteRaven]

Be careful you do not make the same mistake writing this as you did with your attack on Eclectics.

I must admit, as someone who has been a practicing pagan for 13 years, how can anyone your age and with your level of experience have any good idea of what truly goes on in other people's heads, in their private practice, and the pagan community.
Do you really have all the facts, the knowledge and experience to generalize so broadly?
Have you been to different countries and interacted with enough different pagan communities to think you know enough to place such labels?
Just how many Eclectics do you know, and how long and hard have you studied their practice?
How many Recons do you know, and how throughly have you studied their practice?

High school is not the world. The internet is not either.

I have traveled across North America, I have practiced paganism for 13 years, I have been in and out of many pagan communities, and I cannot claim to have the knowledge, understanding, empathy and RIGHT to place labels, generalizations and point fingers.

I feel no one I have ever met has the expertise and ability to make such statements about other people's spirituality.

It is one thing to say that many of the Recons or Eclectics you know personally are such a way. It is another to say that some problem in your community or groups of friends is prevalent in all the world of paganism.

Please refrain from writing in anger, or if you do, hold onto that article for a couple of weeks before you share it with the world. Trust me, this is good advice.

Everyone needs to stop assuming that the one or few "so and sos" you know are representative of everyone who walks a similar path, please _whistle_

I second this.

[ThePaganMafia]

I will not be writing a follow up article any time soon unfortunatley....Iam very busy and am planning on an article(which Im hoping to turn into a book) about my Grandfather's time in the Pacific War. It is going to take me a long time and I don't know if I will have time to write a follow up article anytime soon....

[~*Sacred*~]

Well, this has given me cause for thought.

[Twinkle]

There was no attack on Eclectics. The article was about lazy people hiding under the label of Eclectic.

The fact that people still see it as an attack..especially after it was clarified...is just crazy to me.

[gillian_greenleaf]

While I get the sarcasm, I do feel that I should probably clarify some things.

What Recons do is recontruct ancient practices. That is "our" path. We actually do carefully study the relationships between the cultures...as are aware that syncretism is a part of virtually any Reconstructionist path. There are some that are strictly Syncretist Recons...meaning that they worship the Syncretized Greco-Egyptian Gods, for example.

...

Eclecticism does not do this. By definition, Eclecticism means "picking from the best." There is no attempt to reconcile the cultural differences.

Actually, I googled eclecticism, and I found the following in the "Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy" (I don't have a philosophy text here at home, so I hope this works. According to the following, what Recons do is how eclecticism is explained. Take a look ... " 'Eclecticism' is a name given to a group of ancient philosophers who, from the existing philosophical beliefs, tried to select the doctrines that seemed to them most reasonable, and out of these constructed a new system (see Diogenes Laertius, 21). ... Eclecticism sought to reach by selection the highest possible degree of probability, in the despair of attaining to what is absolutely true." Sounds very close to me, but then, I'm an eclectic, so I may have been too lazy in my investigation. (OK, sorry, that sarcasm was uncalled for, but I'm working my way through the posts, and I've read pages and pages, and I thought I should get my sarcastic dig in somewhere:weirdsmil. Back to reading now!)

[gillian_greenleaf]

I forgot to quote ... sorry ... from Sabriel ... "A better comparison of purity in the sense I was using it would be, let's say, coffee. People who like to stay on one set path, be it recon, Christianity, etc like their coffee straight up black. Nothing else in it. They think that's the way coffee should be experienced. ... Eclectics like coffee, but feel that something is missing. So they research the nature of coffee, and find that perhaps it can be improved with some cream and some sugar. So they carefully add a little bit of cream and a little bit of sugar until they find a blend that is just right. And they think that blend is what is best for them and they are happy. ... Fluffy people also find something missing , so they throw tea, coca cola and cold tap water in and hope for the best. All they are left with is a cup of ick. ... I think as long as you have a cup of coffee in your hands that makes you happy and isn't ick then everything will be alright. :)"

This is where I start ... I love the metaphor. What a delightful post! Make mine espresso with half and half, no sugar.

[gillian_greenleaf]

I certainly can't speak for all Recon religions, but I would say that within the Hellenic culture there was actually no word for religion. The religion was so intertwined with the culture that it's actually difficult to tell what was religious, and what was cultural.

Religion is one element of the larger concept of culture. Culture includes all the beliefs, values, rules of behavior, behavior, symbolism and communication, technology, dress, food, etc., etc., practiced by a group of people.

[Faol-chù]

I realize that this is an old thread, but I have felt the need to say a couple of things, and I have not (as of yet) seen them addressed...




Enjoying and appreciating reconstructed religious practice is one thing....but if you are serious about your spirituality historical reconstruction will be a secondary concern to your true beliefs.

The thing that I do not think some folks see is that for MANY people who do "reconstruction" and/or other exercises in archaeology, anthropology, and history, THE ACT OF RECONSTRUCTING IS WHAT THEY ARE DRIVEN BY SPIRIT TO DO.

Over and over...not just in this thread, but for years, I have seen it suggested that one CAN'T be spiritual if they are spending A LOT of time and energy reconstructing, they can possibly be practicing the 'spiritual' aspects of their religion.

The thing is that for many, reconstructing IS "the practice". I DO think that the reconstruction can be an extremely spiritual endeavor.



Also, another thing I have seen come up which has not been addressed is the idea that 'reconstructionists' are 'reconstructing a religion, NOT an entire culture'.

There is really a fact of this matter that I have seen ignored all to often by both sides...Most historical cultures DID NOT view their religion as a separate entity from 'the rest of their lives'. Their "religion" (as we modern people like to draw out and discuss" WAS thoroughly inseparable from the rest of their lives and culture.
People THINK they are "reconstructing" religion. The people whose "religions" are being reconstructed likely would have not thought such a thing possible.

I think there is a difference in thinking here that gets regularly ignored.

Le meas,

[Denikke]

I happen to be an eclectic witch. I don't identify with any specific path in particular. I take what feels right to me from wherever I find it, and I use it. To those who are *purists* for any path, may not like the way I structure my beliefs. It sounds like the OP is one of those people who would disagree. That's ok, everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
As for me, there is a reason I have a problem with organized or structured religion. And for me, specific pagan paths fall under that category also. My beliefs are my own and not anyone else's. To follow a structured religion, to me, would be following someone elses' path. The road well travelled may be easier, but you miss so much. I'd much rather forge my own path, and be happy with every aspect of it, than follow someone elses' and only be happy with part of it. I know what's in my own heart and mind. Why do I need someone else to tell me?
Just my own opinion:thumbsup:
Denikke