Witchcraft vs wicca????

[Rima]

Ok.. Help,
...anyone got a simple definition or idea of the difference?

I gather that some people attatch a rather more negative conotation to the word "witch" than "wiccan"...
I actually like the term witch, but think it has acquired a lot of negative associations in people's minds... but guess, I am actually "wiccan",...
interested to hear your thoughts...

(and I am new... so any info's helpful!)

[Lilu]

My definition of a witch is someone who practices magick. Other people have different definitions. So to me, one can be a witch AND Wiccan, or one can be just Wiccan without the practice of magick.

To that extent, I believe that being Wiccan doesn't make you a witch. In my beliefs there can be Christian Witches if they practice magick.

There is an interesting FAQ I found ages ago referring to Traditional Witchcraft, and they have an interesting section explaining the difference between Traditional Witchcraft and Wicca. You can check it out here:

http://members.tripod.com/~shadowdrake/HSDwitchFAQ.html

Bright Blessings,
Lilu

[SahuaDjet]

Em Hotep,
I also term witch as one who practices magick and Wiccan as one who follows wiccan beliefs but doesnt have to be a witch. I am Wiccan and not a witch. I do not practice magick and follow the beliefs of Wicca.

Sahu Djet

[amberlaine]

Although there are those that disagree with me...

Wicca is a religion. Witchraft is not necessarily a rleigion (though I suppose it could be, in and of itself it is a PRACTICE or an ART, but not a religion).

Therefore, merely aligning oneself with the religion of Wicca is not sufficient to call oneself a witch. A Witch is a conduit for Deity to work though, a magick user, a servant of Deity. A Wiccan is one who follows the religion of Wicca. One can be both or either separately.

To that end, witches may be found in many traditions, including Christianity. On the other hand, one cannot be a Christian Wiccan, as the two philosophies carry paradoxically opposed beliefs (such as the need for Christ as a personal savior).

[bluecat]

Here is a reference I have always found handy:

http://paganism.com/ag/articles/wvsw.html

Personally I see Wicca as a religion and Witchcraft as a way of life.

You can also see my beleifs at:

http://www.zianet.com/bluecat/Beliefs.html

Blue

[Fawn]

Hate to disagree with you all but I am--I follow what is known as the "Old Religon" that existed long before wiccan authors came about and made it different--read up on the Aradia.
To be wiccan--one does not have to use magickal workings; but witches do.

Witchcraft--the way of the witches. To use magick; to work with nature. To know and love one's self fully.

We even have different rede than wicca's.

And by the way just where did wicca get the pantheons from? Witches--we used them first and always.

Just how much wicca is actually orginal thoughts from Gardner or other authors? Or did n't they have someone help guide them and then they combined their teachings with what they perceived?

Are we different--yes--witches know and embrace their deities and there are wiccans who do not even know their own pantheons.

[bluecat]

Even though I carry a tattoo of a Pentacle and a lady on my left shoulder, I do not really consider myself a Witch, i consider myself more of a Pagan. I was identifiied as a Practical Witch, I do not have a Pantheon. I believe the Universe is a living being and I revere those who have gone before me.

Blue

[Rima]

I appreciate your help, it's a bit clearer... I guess it doesn't help that some books use the term "wiccan" to replace the word "witch" due to their own associations with the word - all adds to the confusion of newbies like me...
Thanks all and blessings, whatever path you are walking.
Blessed Be!

[Sephiroth]

Wicca: 1. "The craft of the wise." A neo-Pagan belief with roots in pre-Christian Western Europe. 2. A Pagan system of belief which grew out of the work of Gerald Gardner in the 1950's. Gardner eventually gave birth to Gardenarian Wicca. Alex Sanders followed with Alexandrian Wicca and other Traditions (both hierarchal and eclectic) soon followed. Wicca traditionally observes the eight Sabbats, the Esbats, honors the Goddess and the God, and follows the Wiccan Rede -- a grouping of guidelines that practitioners are expected to honor.


Witchcraft: The craft of the Witch. Embraces the beliefs, practices, traditions, observances, and lore of one who lives as a Witch.

[Earth Walker]

Wicca is a religion, and Witchcraft is a tradition, from
many of the ancient matriarchal societies.:)

[amberlaine]

Originally posted by Fawn
Hate to disagree with you all but I am--I follow what is known as the "Old Religon" that existed long before wiccan authors came about and made it different--read up on the Aradia.

Might I ask what religion this is? Is this a tradition passed down for generations, thus somehwat validated it historic truth, or is this something you found in a book or on te internet somehwere?



And by the way just where did wicca get the pantheons from? Witches--we used them first and always.

Hmm? Wiccans take their pantheons from many different religions and cultures, and many eclectic Wiccans will mix pantheons. I, for example, follow the Abrahamic God Yahweh and the Sumerian Goddess Inanna.

As for witches using pantheons first and always--huh?



Just how much wicca is actually orginal thoughts from Gardner or other authors? Or did n't they have someone help guide them and then they combined their teachings with what they perceived?

Jst how much of *any* philosophy or religion is unique and original? Not a hell of a lot. What makes a system unique is how the blend several beliefs together. None of the tenets of Wicca are unique to Wicca, but Wicca is unique becauase of the way those beliefs work together. Pantheism, trascendentalism, polytheism, reincarnation, karma--none of these beliefs is unique to Wicca, yet the whole is not merely a sum of the parts. You have to look at the religion *holistically* in order to understand its depth and character.



Are we different--yes--witches know and embrace their deities and there are wiccans who do not even know their own pantheons.

That's a load. There are morons in every faith and practice. I daresay there are a plethora of witches who don't know dick about the Divine.

[Fawn]

The" divine "what--Amberlaine? I do not worship just one pantheon--I worship a Goddess and God.
I do not believe in the Bible, I do not believe in hell, damnation, heaven, or just one pantheon. I also do not believe in the boogeyman.
Yes my beliefs are something that has been in my family for centuries.

Playing on the internet---don't think so I learned from family members. Not a computer nor a book written for profit by an author.

And your sentence about the 'tenet beliefs of Wicca' confirmed what I was trying to say. Yes--I quite understand alot of different beliefs are based upon one of another.

Yes I follow a traditional form of witchcraft. Exactly what that is: I follow a Romanian one.
Yes there are wiccans who do not have any pantheons yet to call them "morons" as you did is not a very polite thing to say for all must search for the path that satisfies our heart's desire and yes that pertains to religous beliefs too. It also--confirms my belief that witchcraft is different than Wicca.

[bluecat]

Debate is good, let's keep it friendly, ok?

Blue

[amberlaine]

Yes there are wiccans who do not have any pantheons yet to call them "morons" as you did is not a very polite thing to say for all must search for the path that satisfies our heart's desire and yes that pertains to religous beliefs too.

That isn't what I said at all. Not following a pantheon doesn't make you a moron. However, I do see that I may have misinterpreted something you said. When you said "There are Wiccand who do not even know their own pantheons", I took this mean there are Wiccans who have embraced a pantheon whole heartedly but dont actually know anything about it. This is indeed a moronic thing to do. If, however, what you meant was that there are Wiccans who don't know yet what their pantheon is (if they will even adopt one) then no, of course that's not moronic.

Howeve, as both a witch and Wiccan, I still find the statement that "witches know their deities" to be inaccurate. There *are* morons on eveyr path, and there are witches who think they understand the Divine (and I cant even begin to answer your question the Divine what..) when in fact, as I said, they don't know diddly abotu the nature of G!D.

[Fawn]

Ok then I see where our misunderstanding lies.
A wise person once told me ask ten witches and get ten different replies.
The difference in our opnions is in our personal definition of the word "witchcraft".

And not to be flippant but G!D pertaining to bible?

(Nope don't know him--never met him. )

To me all higher powers are Divine not just those from the bible.
I have read the bible and have some trouble with the items I encountered there and that is why I do not embrace its teachings. (Its a personal matter)

I have also encountered (in my personal life) witches who have no wish to be acknowledged as wiccan for our believes are different. Wiccans have the three fold and the karma that they usually work with.

The witches I personally know do not believe in the karma nor the three fold law.

I see where wicca and witchcraft overlaps in the belief systems in some areas but there are many roads and avenues one must take in this life to find her/his true spiritual path.


You call yourself a follower of the Abrahamic G!d correct? Well--(this for an for instance and only that) someone told you that YOU can NOT worship him for it is wrong of you unless you are Jewish? 100% Jewish.

Wouldn't feel to good would it? Plus I have a sneaking suspension you would be pretty upset with that person right?

I am entitled to my opnions and views just as the rest are. Does not make me wrong if I differ nor does it make me right. It amkes me different and there sure is not anything wrong with being different.

[bananabrain]

fawn -

the jewish version of your ten witches line is "two jews, three opinions - and four committees"


To me all higher powers are Divine not just those from the bible.

for me that would depend on what you meant by 'higher'. if you meant 'more powerful', then you could say that my bank manager is a higher power. i assume this is not what you mean. how do you tell if something *is* a 'higher' power? further misunderstanding may stem from differing conceptions of the Divine.

amber (hi sweetie) is a sophisticated thinker on this subject in my experience. insofar as she and i are in agreement, there are spiritual/metaphysical powers that are beyond what we can conceive as humans in terms of science or spirituality. there are things we can conceive of existing that we cannot explain adequately with the available tools. and then there is that which is Beyond. the Divine Infinite, EIN-SOF in kabbalistic terms. although the Divine may be a cause in the world of action, to analyse these links effectively, let alone manipulate them, is a matter for the most spiritually advanced. although the Divine may manifest G!Dself in as many ways as one's conception of it allows, there is a world (in fact four worlds!) of difference between what one might experience as a deity or angel or goddess or non-corporeal entity in this world and what is beyond KeTeR of KeTeR. it's like an amoeba being able to perceive the space programme, or indeed vice-versa. in this sense, therefore, what appear to us to be higher powers may or may not be Divine in origin. how you relate to them, however, will obviously be affected to how you relate to the Divine. we are limited, although hugely *potential* beings.

now, you may or may not relate to the revelation that G!D made to the jewish people at mt sinai which remains i the Torah (or 'pentateuch' if you like) but if you are not jewish, you are not obliged to. i cannot comment on the perennial 'having a problem with the bible' thing because i don't know what conception of the 'bible' you're talking about. when i talk about it, i mean the TaNaKH, that's Torah, Nevi'im (prophets) and Ketuvim (writings) of the jewish canon - what xtians generally mean when they refer to the 'old testament'. if you have problems with the old testament, join the queue. everyone has problems with it, even if they're not working from translations as most people are. it's not a beginners' text and as a non-jew (i assume), you are not obliged to even be aware it exists.

however, if you do feel you wish to have a relationship with our sacred texts, the entire jewish tradition is built around interpreting them, so don't expect to be able to jump straight in to 4000 years of tradition without proper guidance. just as an example, the oft-quoted 'lex talionis', an 'eye for an eye', the jewish law that is built on it is quite different to what you probably imagine, let alone what idiot literalists come up with.


Well...[what if]... someone told you that YOU can NOT worship him for it is wrong of you unless you are Jewish? 100% Jewish. Wouldn't feel too good would it? Plus I have a sneaking suspension you would be pretty upset with that person right?

and you'd be right. as someone who is a practicing, observant jew who has grown up in a jewish environment, i can tell you that that person would be 100% wrong and 200% ignorant, which - gasp of horror - jews are just as capable of as the next person.

for a start, judaism is not measured in percentages. you are jewish (according to jewish law) if your mother is, or if you converted, period. that's it. you either are or you're not. if you *are* jewish, you have for starters 613 basic obligations, which include worshipping G!D. if you are not, you have precisely 7. they are known as the 'noachide' laws and it is unlikely that you are transgressing them already, since they include 'duh' kind of things like prohibitions against murder and eating a limb from a living animal as well as the important obligation to establish a justice system and abide by it.

as far as worship goes, i can see how this misconception might arise. it is possible that the person you were speaking too was referring to a 'minyan' or (jewish) prayer quorum, but anyone, repeat anyone can worship the Divine. many of the people who judaism would include in this are probably unaware of it. furthermore, it's not a question of 'jews go to heaven and everyone else is going doooooown'. you're confusing us with someone else. judaism is not christianity, sometimes to a surprising extent as far as most westerners are concerned.

just as an aside, we are also *strictly* prohibited from going out and trying to convert people, so don't think i'm engaging in this discussion with the intent of doing so. even if you wanted to convert, you would very likely be turned down the first few times - people have to *really* want it badly to go through the effort, which takes several years. i'm no missionary. however, if people are ignorant about my tradition, i am happy to point them at further information (i should stress that i am not a rabbi or any kind of authority on jewish law, although i know thousands of the buggers) in order that people understand what we do and do not believe and practice.

i hope this serves in some way as a counterweight to the clueless muppet that told you such a load of sweaty old bollocks.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[amberlaine]

Fawn,

I'm going to have to end this discussion becuase I have no idea what you're talking about.

I dont follow the Bible either. As far as I'm concerned, God is God is God, I dont care what you call him/her/it. I"m a monotheist and as such, I beleive al l images of deity are just pieces of one Deity. When i say I follow the Abrahamic God I grew up with--yes, I do, so what? I follow that God as *I* see him, not as the Bible portrays him, and certainly not as CHristians would have you see him. My interpreation of that God is mine and mine alone. furthermore, I recognize that this image of God is only *one* valid image of te Divine--and the images of the Divine are infinite.

I"m not Christian or Jewish--I"m Wiccan, and I'm a Witch. Our definitions of witchcraft don't have anything to do with this conversation so again--I have no idea what you're talking about. You seem to be dwelling in non-sequiters here, and I dont know why.

Hi BB *hugs* :)

[Rima]

...I seem to have really started something here!
But it's good to get a look at different people's viewpoints. I think that so long as someone is honest and committed to what they believe, their opinions and ways of looking at things are just as relevant as the next person's. After all, we are ALL very individual and therefore all have our own way of considering deity or "religion" - that's what makes this path interesting - that we all accept different paths and don't try to impose on people or judge in any way, and that we respect every person's own personal choices as their right.
But thanks all for your time taken answering my question and blessings and light to all wherever you are...
Blessed Be!