When Deciding Who or What to Worship..

[Asuka]

..does a "proof of existance" change the power he/she/it can have?

I ask because I often feel drawn to things that are purely speculation. I did a wide search of the entire message board and found only three topics that vaguely mentioned the hypothetical "Planet X" that has been named Nibiru.

When I first heard of Nibiru, the conspiracy theories and end-of-the-world scenarios surrounding Nibiru frankly scared the crap out of me. But over time, my mind settled and there seemed to be something in the word or the name or the reference that spoke to me. I know there is supposed to be a crazy Sumerian origin myth that talked about Nibiru and some sort of alien encounter, but my main points of reference were theories about Nibiru's appearance and behaviour as a planet. But I simply can't place why the word has so much power for me. I feel like it's something I need to "keep close" to me, because I find it so fascinating.

I'm a total noob, so this could be completely normal and I just don't know what I'm experiencing. XD

But back to my main question -- does the fact that Nibiru isn't a proven planet mean that it doesn't possess power? Or does it have power when the mind and the consciousness gives it power? I know many of us call upon deities and aspects of nature in ritual, but what if these things may not exist? Can we call upon something that isn't there? Can a human create their own god(dess)? Having been raised Catholic, the very idea of Man creating anything divine was simply blasphemy, but it was an idea I've always thought about. Can the prayer or ritual or worship bring the power to the god? I've already caught myself on several occasions referring to Nibiru as "her" or "she" unconsciously.

I'd just like to know before I let this sink in too deep. ^_^;;

[coeur]

There is a difference between 'believing' and 'knowing,' and I think it is very important to acknowledge the difference between them when considering faith. Faith does not involve 'knowing,' it only demands 'belief'; in fact, belief in something that has no absolute proof of existence can be more powerful than simply knowing something exists. Deities in several mythological traditions tend to reward those who have faith in them; they also tend to hide themselves from the absolute knowledge of their worshipers for the purpose of testing faith. On topics like these, one quote particularly stands out, "For those who believe, no explanation is needed; for those who do not, no explanation can be given." Faith is not science and I think there are certain, powerful merits to that fact.

It is interesting to consider what might make someone or something a deity. Some people might quickly say 'immortality,' but it would be important to note that gods have been known to die in various traditions--most notably, the Norse traditions. Some deities are not powerful at all and must rely on magic like humankind. The Greek deities were just as much subjected to fate and love as humans are. I would make the argument that the divine is divine because of faith. When someone worships something, that something becomes more divine. To be a god, one must only be acknowledged as a god.

Servitors and elementals can be created through magic--bits of energy that manifests itself with a zing of self-sufficiency [but not much at first]. Servitors can evolve into egregores--psychic autonomous entities that can effect groups of people--or the angry, teenage stage of deities. Supposedly, as more people hop onto the bandwagon, the stronger the creature becomes until it reaches a deity status. Of course, there are no cut-off points that I know of.

You may want to read http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos/texts/fen-egre.html, a case study of Fotamecus, a servitor that has evolved into an egregore through the help of the world wide web.

[The Amityville Ghost]

There is a difference between 'believing' and 'knowing,' and I think it is very important to acknowledge the difference between them when considering faith. Faith does not involve 'knowing,' it only demands 'belief'; in fact, belief in something that has no absolute proof of existence can be more powerful than simply knowing something exists. Deities in several mythological traditions tend to reward those who have faith in them; they also tend to hide themselves from the absolute knowledge of their worshipers for the purpose of testing faith. On topics like these, one quote particularly stands out, "For those who believe, no explanation is needed; for those who do not, no explanation can be given." Faith is not science and I think there are certain, powerful merits to that fact.

Excellent point. However, I feel it's necessary to point out the difference between "proof" and "evidence." To prove something is to repeatedly demonstrate that it is an indisputable fact; to have evidence for something is to demonstrate that it may be a fact. There is much more room for subjectivity with evidence. Obviously, nobody in any religion has absolute proof of their theological claims, but plenty of believers have what they consider to be evidence. This evidence is largely personal, because it is limited to the individual's own life experiences. For instance, a person who is on the verge of death in a hospital bed, but who has an experience with Jesus Christ in the hospital and manages to survive, will consider such an experience to be evidence that Jesus is at least somehow real. It cannot be scientifically demonstrated to others that this experience was objectively real, therefore it does not qualify as proof. But for that individual who had the experience, it is evidence.

(The problem, of course, is when believers try to use such evidence to "prove" the existence of their deity to others. Such evidence is practically useless in supporting a persuasive argument, which is why it's usually best for people of different paths to "agree to disagree.")

Akura:

That being said, I am woefully ignorant of this hypothetical planet called Nibiru. I do not have enough information to offer an opinion concerning its possible existence or non-existence. But I will say this: labels are just labels, they are not the things they are used to describe. It is conceivable to me that there are all kinds of spiritual forces at work in the universe, and that numerous descriptors may be used for each of them. Perhaps the "Nibiru" to which you are drawn is really a divinity of some kind; perhaps it is an old divinity under a new name, or a divinity that has never been acknowledged before, manifesting itself to you under a name it (or she) likes best. Either way, you must be true to yourself. If it seems right to follow this entity or force, then flow with it. So long as you don't start killing people in the name of Nibiru, I don't think it's really anybody else's business what terminology you use in your personal relationship with the divine. Just make sure you are intellectually honest about it, most especially with yourself.

I suppose it is possible that some spiritual entities live off the energy that humans invest in them, but I don't believe this is the case with either the Supreme God ("Allat" in my terminology) or the lesser gods ("archangels" or "archdaemons" in my terminology). In my opinion such entities should be classified as lower angels or daemons, who are closer to human beings than they are to the gods. In which case, I believe it is certainly valid to worship lesser daemons, as such was practiced in ancient Greece and other areas of the world, and perhaps there can be something fulfilling for a person in having a symbiotic relationship with such a force or being. I suspect that in such a relationship, it is strictly a matter between the person and their spiritual symbiote as to what the being or force should be called.

I don't know whether the force to which you are drawn is Allat Herself, an archangel, or a lesser angel, and I don't have any suggestions as to how you can be sure. You may not even find my theology useful in this matter, and that is perfectly acceptable. But I wish you luck in your journey.

[cheddarsox]

I wasn't going to jump in because this really isn't my field. I follow a non-theistic path, but you haven't gotten many responses...so I will share what a close friend told me about her experience.

She went to a 12 step program, and one of the things she needed to do to participate was to acknowledge a higher power. She has all kind of issues with the faith of her childhood and anything that even remotely resembles it...she has "god issues"...but her sponsor said it didn't matter, that she could "make one up"

She got out some paper and designed her own god. Wrote down the attributes and even sketched an image. And she began to pray to this god of her own making...and in her own words "it worked".

She was surprised and thrilled.

I have no idea what the metaphysics behind this are, how or why it worked. Maybe a deity took pity on her, and met her where she was, maybe it was all a mind game. I have no clue...but she reached out and something powerful reached back.

In your case...maybe something powerful is calling to you through a mist...you don't have all the details. But it seems like you can take what you have and begin the process...and trust that any more info that is needed will come.

[HedwigHarfang]

I wasn't going to jump in because this really isn't my field. I follow a non-theistic path, but you haven't gotten many responses...so I will share what a close friend told me about her experience.

She went to a 12 step program, and one of the things she needed to do to participate was to acknowledge a higher power. She has all kind of issues with the faith of her childhood and anything that even remotely resembles it...she has "god issues"...but her sponsor said it didn't matter, that she could "make one up"

She got out some paper and designed her own god. Wrote down the attributes and even sketched an image. And she began to pray to this god of her own making...and in her own words "it worked".

She was surprised and thrilled.

I have no idea what the metaphysics behind this are, how or why it worked. Maybe a deity took pity on her, and met her where she was, maybe it was all a mind game. I have no clue...but she reached out and something powerful reached back.

In your case...maybe something powerful is calling to you through a mist...you don't have all the details. But it seems like you can take what you have and begin the process...and trust that any more info that is needed will come.

The power of faith - subconscious and conscious - is the key to any psi or invocation of a deity. God, in my view, doesn't mind what you call Him as long as you keep the faith, don't do bad things and don't willfully p*ss him off. I find that the problems start when people say "God doesn't like you because you're Tory" or "How can a Conservative be a Christian" or any other permutation of the same (vice versa, ...if you're homosexual, ...if you're black, and so on).

Proof of existence for me is simple - I know that this world works because God lets evil-doers get away with so much, but at crucial times He is there for the people who really believe in good being triumphant. To come through the darkest winter of my entire life and be face to face with my soul-mate Louise after thirty years of knowing she was alive but never being able to meet her except briefly at campaign rallies, it was proof of His existence, and not even her mother - in league with the Devil of greed, jealousy and vanity - could stop us from being together. Justice always prevails in the long run, and proof of that is for me what keeps me going and believing, and the belief doesn't have to be in some Thing or other, but in the power of the good in all of us, pagan, Christian or eclectic Jew like me.

[Asuka]

That being said, I am woefully ignorant of this hypothetical planet called Nibiru. I do not have enough information to offer an opinion concerning its possible existence or non-existence. But I will say this: labels are just labels, they are not the things they are used to describe. It is conceivable to me that there are all kinds of spiritual forces at work in the universe, and that numerous descriptors may be used for each of them. Perhaps the "Nibiru" to which you are drawn is really a divinity of some kind; perhaps it is an old divinity under a new name, or a divinity that has never been acknowledged before, manifesting itself to you under a name it (or she) likes best. Either way, you must be true to yourself. If it seems right to follow this entity or force, then flow with it. So long as you don't start killing people in the name of Nibiru, I don't think it's really anybody else's business what terminology you use in your personal relationship with the divine. Just make sure you are intellectually honest about it, most especially with yourself.

I didn't even consider that it could be an existing divinity answering to a different name! I thank you for reminding me of this, because it gives me something else to look into. If that's the case, then I'd like to know who is behind the name, patiently waiting to be discovered. (:


The power of faith - subconscious and conscious - is the key to any psi or invocation of a deity. God, in my view, doesn't mind what you call Him as long as you keep the faith, don't do bad things and don't willfully p*ss him off. I find that the problems start when people say "God doesn't like you because you're Tory" or "How can a Conservative be a Christian" or any other permutation of the same (vice versa, ...if you're homosexual, ...if you're black, and so on).

I think it's significant that I read this today, after having been away for the holiday break. The timing was such that I read this after having attended a Baptist church for the first time with my fiancee's family. At first I was all very skeptical, because that's my initial response to organized religion, and then I considered that there's just a difference in terminology. ^^ Having read this today just makes me think about it all the more.

Thanks for the input everyone!

[Lupabitch]

I''m in a similar place. I went over a decade without finding a male deity that I really connected with; my patron Goddess has been Artemis for all that time, but never could find a God. After a while I figured out that you don't *have* to have a matching set, so to speak, so I stopped worrying about it and kept focusing on Artemis, as well as the various totems and other spirits.

However, a few months ago, I was contacted by a deity that I'm not even sure exists outside of my head, and perhaps certain mythologists' speculation. You know the cave paintings in France at Trois Freres? Well, one of the best known ones is of this bipedal dancing figure with branching antler's, a lion's face, bear's paws and a wolf's tail--communly known as "the Sorceror" per Abbe Breuil (sp?). That picture has always captivated me, though I never knew why. One day I was looking at it, when I got that familiar intuitive *ping* that says a deity or spirit is trying to get my attention.

Long story short, apparently there is a deity attached to that painting; I call him the Animal Father. Now, obviously, we have absolutely no clue what those paintings were for; the best that anthropologists and Joseph Campbell could do was speculate. However, I rely quite a bit on UPG (Unverified Personal Gnosis) with a grain of salt, so I decided to explore this further. (You can read in more depth at http://therioshamanism.com/2007/09/24/who-is-the-animal-father/.)

I have no way of proving this deity exists outside of my own experiences. However, in the time I've worked with him we've had a mutually beneficial relationship. Is he simply an egregore created by my attention to that picture over the years? It's quite possible. However, that could theoretically be said about any incorporeal being. I choose to believe he exists independently of me, and that he existed prior to my birth.

So I think it's entirely possible to work with planetary energies that may not even have a physical foundation. Belief can be an exceptionally powerful tool. As long as you understand the context your belief is in, and don't expect others to always agree with it, I see no problem with taking it and running with it.

[Son of Deborah]

I find your choice of wording in the title interesting. You ask about "deciding" to worship an entity, but then immediately shift to being drawn towards one. I would say that, for some of us in the spiritual community, it's not much of a decision. Some of us are found, or called, or joined, or whatever you want to call it, to that/those we worship, so I don't know how much "proof" matters.

It also depends on what you mean by "proof". Scientific proof is a specific thing, and the realm of the spiritual can't really fall into that field, because you can't disprove it. On the other hand, if you worship a Greek deity, for instance, there are hundreds of years worth of personal and societal recollections of interactions with Gods and Goddesses, rituals, feasts, etc. Are these not a kind of proof that a people followed the same God/dess/es you do, and had similar experiences, feelings, thoughts, and ideas?

I suppose that, without personal experience with the Divine, one would need some sort of external proof. I don't happen to fall into that category, thankfully, so I can't speak to that experience.

All that being said, no, proof is not necessary for a belief to have weight or an entity to have power. Belief and worship themselves imbue power. All entities that are today recognized as powerful began as an idea, tracing back to the beginning of all reality itself. Perception is reality, if only for the perceiver, and if it is only reality for the perceiver, proof itself reduces to something that, at its extreme, is silly and pointless. (Unfortunately, most of us don't have a high enough access to reality to see whether reality is singular, universal, or personal, so the point itself is kinda moot _whistle_)


..does a "proof of existance" change the power he/she/it can have?

I ask because I often feel drawn to things that are purely speculation. I did a wide search of the entire message board and found only three topics that vaguely mentioned the hypothetical "Planet X" that has been named Nibiru.

When I first heard of Nibiru, the conspiracy theories and end-of-the-world scenarios surrounding Nibiru frankly scared the crap out of me. But over time, my mind settled and there seemed to be something in the word or the name or the reference that spoke to me. I know there is supposed to be a crazy Sumerian origin myth that talked about Nibiru and some sort of alien encounter, but my main points of reference were theories about Nibiru's appearance and behaviour as a planet. But I simply can't place why the word has so much power for me. I feel like it's something I need to "keep close" to me, because I find it so fascinating.

I'm a total noob, so this could be completely normal and I just don't know what I'm experiencing. XD

But back to my main question -- does the fact that Nibiru isn't a proven planet mean that it doesn't possess power? Or does it have power when the mind and the consciousness gives it power? I know many of us call upon deities and aspects of nature in ritual, but what if these things may not exist? Can we call upon something that isn't there? Can a human create their own god(dess)? Having been raised Catholic, the very idea of Man creating anything divine was simply blasphemy, but it was an idea I've always thought about. Can the prayer or ritual or worship bring the power to the god? I've already caught myself on several occasions referring to Nibiru as "her" or "she" unconsciously.

I'd just like to know before I let this sink in too deep. ^_^;;

[omar]

If you think it and believe it, it will come to exist on the Astaral plane. That's magic or co - creation.

[Olivelovingtiger]

In my opinion an object or entity only has as much power as you give it. So if you were to start heavily believing in this entity and whorshiping it then I would say that its a very powerful being. I know that this is a terrible reference but in freddy vs. jason, freddy could only have the power to kill those kids if they believed in him. So if you its real to you then its real enough.