Question About Lilith

[WarriorZhanna]

I know there are so many other topics concerning Lilith but I really wanted to start my own because I have a couple of things of my own I want to ask those who are in touch with this goddess.

So.. Lilith's been on my mind a lot. I'm not sure why. I used to practise martial arts but then suddenly stopped, an inner urge of mine wanted to bellydance to do something more feminine. I can feel this inner goddess in me wanting to reach out in a sexual way (I mean feeling sexy & all, like an enchantress or something.. it's hard to explain but I'm sure you get it) & I keep hearing and seeing the name Lilith. But I kind of hesitate with it.. it's just the myth that surrounds her that makes me a bit cautious. I know Lilith probably isn't an evil thing but still.. I just want to make sure.

What is she like? I know gods have their personalities. For example Isis feels really motherly and soothing. But how's Lilith like? Since I haven't been in touch with her I've sort of imagined her as a Goddess with lots of sexual appeal and maybe even beauty/lust. Is that true?

I just don't know if Lilith is the right Goddess to get in touch with on this matter.

Blessings,
-Susanna

[The Amityville Ghost]

IMO, there's a lot more to Lilith than just her horniness. I've prayed to her before and performed rites to her. In each of them her presence feels very dark, like the night of a dark moon. She is very wild, very primal and animalistic. Sometimes she can be a bit spooky or frightening because she can be quite macabre.

But in my experiences with her, she also has a lot to do with childlessness. Childlessness is a recurring theme in her legends. I don't believe that she literally kills newborn children, but I do believe she is an "infertility goddess," you might say. Contraception, abortion, and sodomy are like her sacraments. I believe it is for this reason that she was regarded as "evil" by the Babylonians and the medieval Jews. Back in those days, the survival of humankind depended on how much we could reproduce; so the idea of an "infertility goddess" would definitely have been unpopular.

But nowadays, when the world is suffering from overpopulation, things like contraception, abortion and sodomy are becoming more accepted in society. (They are still fought against, but they are a lot more accepted today than ever before were in history.) In fact, to some extent these things are interconnected with feminism and the women's rights movement, which is definitely connected with Lilith, since she was the first feminist.

In my own practice, I honor Lilith as the consort of Melek Ta'us. This is a part of my faith which does not go along with the Yezidi system, as I am under the impression that Yezidis do not recognize Lilith in their theology. However, I've experienced her for myself, so I believe she is just as real as Melek Ta'us, and the two of them have led me to believe that they are husband and wife (in a sense). I do not worship Lilith, at least not anymore than a Catholic worships Mary, but I do honor her and consider her sacred.

Also, I'd like to point out that although I agree with you that Lilith is a goddess, there is no evidence that she was originally viewed as such. The oldest known accounts of Lilith from Babylon paint her as being every bit as demonic as she appears in medieval Jewish folklore. (In fact, the Babylonian version might be even more demonic, considering that they didn't have the part about her rebelling against Adam for the equality of the sexes. This aspect of the Jewish myth seems to redeem her a bit, but there was no such positive aspect in the Babylonian accounts.) While many goddesses became viewed as demons in medieval times, Lilith is the reverse; she appears to be the only example of a demoness who became viewed as a goddess.

Hope this helps.

[WarriorZhanna]

Hmm... okay. Well, this is why I started this topic, to make sure my views of her have not been just imagination and if she's the right being to sort of get in touch with or something.. I knew she was somewhat dark and demonic. Trust me, I've read about her. But I just wanted to know what those who have actually been in touch with her (certain pagans) have to say. It's interesting, really. I feel it must be something to do with sexuality, but I'm not sure what really drives me to considering getting in touch with her. Hope some more member posts can help me clarify my mind. I still feel hesitant. I'm 19 and young.. so I don't think the underlying reason could be anything to do with infertility.. I think it might be the other way around maybe. In fact, I think it's some inner call that doesn't particularly have to do with me or fertility. I even saw her in dreams sometime ago, she appeared as a snake-woman, half-naked. And I know snakes are considered sexual symbols in dreams.. But who knows. That's what they say in psychology. But maybe pagans have something else to say. *waits eagerly for more responses*

P.S. One more thing I find a bit odd: I consider light my element, my specialty. I've always been a "lightsider", sort of... it's hard to explain what I mean. But I just find it so ironic that suddenly this dark Goddess or whoever she really is has popped up in my thoughts. O.o When I want to invoke a deity I usually go for the nicer, lighter, more "good"ones.

[The Amityville Ghost]

I'm 19 and young.. so I don't think the underlying reason could be anything to do with infertility..

Don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to suggest that there is nothing sexual about Lilith. She is a very sexually powerful goddess. But while a goddess like Inanna is a sexual goddess who is associated with fertility and childbirth, you might say Lilith is a sexual goddess who likes sex without making babies, which I consider a good thing. It might sound superstitious of me, and I might very well be wrong, but I'm not sure you should work with her too much if you intend on having children at any point in your future. (Or, if you never want to have kids, maybe she's perfect for you!) I would go into more detail about this but I can't think of a way to explain it without violating the board's rules.

[WarriorZhanna]

Don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to suggest that there is nothing sexual about Lilith. She is a very sexually powerful goddess. But while a goddess like Inanna is a sexual goddess who is associated with fertility and childbirth, you might say Lilith is a sexual goddess who likes sex without making babies, which I consider a good thing. It might sound superstitious of me, and I might very well be wrong, but I'm not sure you should work with her too much if you intend on having children at any point in your future. (Or, if you never want to have kids, maybe she's perfect for you!) I would go into more detail about this but I can't think of a way to explain it without violating the board's rules.

Oh ok, I see. Yeah.. that's why I'm being cautious and wanted to see first what others would say. No, I didn't really get you wrong. And yes, I do want children, lol. I think maybe I should somehow just confront Lilith? Nah.. perhaps it's a bad idea. Hmm.. maybe Inanna would be a better choice then.

I wonder if any other pagans (who want children; are in touch with their fertility/being a mother) ever worship her or something?

[Theres]

for a slightly different view than the Hebrew Lilith try researching Belili.

[LunaWolfe]

I work very closely with Lillith and have been doing so for the past four years. Yeah I know you could all give me the crap of being young and stuff, but I'm much beyond my age in certain aspects of my life. I've been told numerous times that I have had a lot of past lives, so that probably has something to do with it.

Lillith is a very sexual being. You're right in that she isn't like Innana in the sexual way. Though from what I've found with working with Lillith is that she may not be associated with fertility, but she does seem to like children. Kind of like a protectress of them in a way. To me Lillith embodies the essence of all of the love/sex goddesses from other cultures. She has a lot of the traits in common with all of them, though she is indeed darker. At times she cares about relationship sorts of things, but most of the time she just seems to be concerned with lust. If you work with her I'd be prepared to become a lot more sexual as a person, maybe even lustful.
As for the demonic thing. I believe in demons, and angels. I don't pair well with angels, I never have, they've never liked me much. I can work better with demons, but they are very dangerous to work with unless you know exactly who you are calling and what they are like. Lillith doesn't pose a harm threat or anything like that, as I said she's just really lustful. I believe she is a demoness, but I do not believe the stories and myths about her that associate her with Adam. I have also found that she has a male counter part, who seems to embody the male aspects of all the love/sex gods.

[The Amityville Ghost]

Hello LunaWolfe,

I agree with you that Lilith does not pose any real kind of threat...At least, not unless one is a pro-life activist, a male chauvinist or a wife beater.

But in my own experiences with her, she made it clear to me that if I was going to worship her, she would require me to ritually sacrifice my seed to her, if you know what I mean (like in the succubus legends), and I wouldn't be allowed to impregnate anyone. (I hope this sentence doesn't violate any of the board rules, I don't mean to offend anyone.) This isn't to say that romancing with a woman wouldn't be allowed, it just means I wouldn't be allowed to get her pregnant. Which would be fine with me until I get married someday and my wife and I decide we want children. I've always felt that if I were going to have kids, I'd rather adopt than procreate anyway, but I'm not entirely comfortable writing off the option of having my own kids, so I politely told Lilith that I wanted to have a "just friends" relationship with her. Since then I've been a henotheist, worshiping only Melek Ta'us but occasionally working with other deities.

However, I recognize that Lilith may require different things from different worshipers.

[LunaWolfe]

That is true that she does require that sort of sacrafice at times. But, I also do think that it depends on what she wants from each individual person. Like for a male I can understand why she wouldn't want you to impregnate anyone, it may be different for a female and pregnancy though.

She's very interesting.

Being a female though, she makes me feel more feminine and more in touch with my sensual side. And if that is what you are seeking, WarrirorZhana, then she's a good goddess to work with. Be aware of her other personality traits though. Asking others about her first before you decide is a really good idea.

[WarriorZhanna]

That is true that she does require that sort of sacrafice at times. But, I also do think that it depends on what she wants from each individual person. Like for a male I can understand why she wouldn't want you to impregnate anyone, it may be different for a female and pregnancy though.

She's very interesting.

Being a female though, she makes me feel more feminine and more in touch with my sensual side. And if that is what you are seeking, WarrirorZhana, then she's a good goddess to work with. Be aware of her other personality traits though. Asking others about her first before you decide is a really good idea.

If she requires different things from different individuals then perhaps it isn't such a bad thing anyway if I want to get in touch with her. I don't think I'll be like "worshipping" her though, I just want to have a brief encounter and ask her a couple of things (one of the things would be why I've been sensing her around).

I think this could actually be one of the reasons why I've felt her lately because all of a sudden I've started becoming more sensual, passionate as in touch with my inner goddess (I started bellydancing and stopped doing masculine stuff like martial arts), so maybe that's why.

I'm aware of her dark side. No worries. I'm sure I can handle it. I'll be careful. ;)

[BlueMoon13]

If she requires different things from different individuals then perhaps it isn't such a bad thing anyway if I want to get in touch with her.......

I think this could actually be one of the reasons why I've felt her lately because all of a sudden I've started becoming more sensual, passionate as in touch with my inner goddess (I started bellydancing and stopped doing masculine stuff like martial arts),

That could be the reason you attracted her attention. The movements of belly dancing are, as you know, sensual and snake-like, as opposed to many martial arts stances which are, IMO, more stiff and unyielding.

I don't understand the view of Lilith as an "infertility goddess" seeing as how she produced a hundred offspring of her own everyday, which YHVH threatened to kill unless she returned to Adam. For those unfamiliar with the tale, she responded by threatening to kill all of Eve's offspring, which resulted in the compromise being reached that if an amulet displaying the names of the three angels YHVH sent to drag her back to Adam were displayed in the home she wouldn't harm the newborn or the mother, and Lilith maintained her freedom and sovereignty to live as she pleased, even if it was in the wilderness with demons, rather than under God's and Adam's rules,much like Lucifer saying it's" better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."

The end result is that even though in many respects L ilith has been twisted into a child-killing vampire/demon, she is remembered on the occasion of a child's birth and her power over the life and death of that child and mother is acknowledged. I think Lilith is brilliant- she reacted with cleverness when God himself-in true Old Testament fashion-threatened to kill her children when she wouldn't do his bidding-essentially he wanted to play twist the titty, and she won. I regard her as the first witch, as by uttering the first spell (God's "secret" name) she flew up out of Eden and away from Adam.

Unlike some feminists -the UNfeminine, anti-man,unsexual ones-who have latched onto Lilith, she's the ultimate feminine: a protective mother, who is sexual and sensual and not against men at all. She's against unrighteous, women- hating men, especially those who use women for their own needs-sexual, financial, emotional, or otherwise-who abuse amd mistreat women. Do you abuse children? Don't let one of Lilith's children catch up to you. :smash:

I believe that Lilith has children that continue to walk this earth and serve her, whether they realize it or not. The rape crisis counselors, the SVU's, domestic violence workers, and so on. Lilith's children are not those overcome with darkness and have no life outside their gothy fantasy world, allowing indulgence to become compulsion, but are those who live with the darkness and control it instead of the other way around.

[LunaWolfe]

That could be the reason you attracted her attention. The movements of belly dancing are, as you know, sensual and snake-like, as opposed to many martial arts stances which are, IMO, more stiff and unyielding.

I don't understand the view of Lilith as an "infertility goddess" seeing as how she produced a hundred offspring of her own everyday, which YHVH threatened to kill unless she returned to Adam. For those unfamiliar with the tale, she responded by threatening to kill all of Eve's offspring, which resulted in the compromise being reached that if an amulet displaying the names of the three angels YHVH sent to drag her back to Adam were displayed in the home she wouldn't harm the newborn or the mother, and Lilith maintained her freedom and sovereignty to live as she pleased, even if it was in the wilderness with demons, rather than under God's and Adam's rules,much like Lucifer saying it's" better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."

The end result is that even though in many respects L ilith has been twisted into a child-killing vampire/demon, she is remembered on the occasion of a child's birth and her power over the life and death of that child and mother is acknowledged. I think Lilith is brilliant- she reacted with cleverness when God himself-in true Old Testament fashion-threatened to kill her children when she wouldn't do his bidding-essentially he wanted to play twist the titty, and she won. I regard her as the first witch, as by uttering the first spell (God's "secret" name) she flew up out of Eden and away from Adam.

Unlike some feminists -the UNfeminine, anti-man,unsexual ones-who have latched onto Lilith, she's the ultimate feminine: a protective mother, who is sexual and sensual and not against men at all. She's against unrighteous, women- hating men, especially those who use women for their own needs-sexual, financial, emotional, or otherwise-who abuse amd mistreat women. Do you abuse children? Don't let one of Lilith's children catch up to you. :smash:

I believe that Lilith has children that continue to walk this earth and serve her, whether they realize it or not. The rape crisis counselors, the SVU's, domestic violence workers, and so on. Lilith's children are not those overcome with darkness and have no life outside their gothy fantasy world, allowing indulgence to become compulsion, but are those who live with the darkness and control it instead of the other way around.

Well spoken. I don't really know what to say, because that is sort of a sum up of what I was going to say next.

[The Amityville Ghost]

I don't understand the view of Lilith as an "infertility goddess" seeing as how she produced a hundred offspring of her own everyday, which YHVH threatened to kill unless she returned to Adam.

And according to the story, she refused, and YHVH kept good on his promise. All of Lilith's children are said to die shortly after being born.

For those unfamiliar with the tale, she responded by threatening to kill all of Eve's offspring, which resulted in the compromise being reached that if an amulet displaying the names of the three angels YHVH sent to drag her back to Adam were displayed in the home she wouldn't harm the newborn or the mother,

Yes, and the whole point of this talisman was to make sure the children didn't die from what was probably crib death. In other words, Lilith was perceived as a threat to the propagation of our species.

The end result is that even though in many respects L ilith has been twisted into a child-killing vampire/demon, she is remembered on the occasion of a child's birth and her power over the life and death of that child and mother is acknowledged.

Yes, but we must remember that Lilith was not "twisted" into a demoness, she was a demoness to begin with. The story of Lilith being Adam's first wife and all that was a later addition to her character, and it was introduced comparatively recently, during the Middle Ages, in The Alphabet of Ben Sira. In ancient Mesopotamia she was just a child-killing night demon, nothing more and nothing less, similar to the Greek Lamia.

The "child-killing" theme is what's important here to my analysis of her as an "infertility goddess." Do I believe Lilith literally kills children, as in sneaking into their bedrooms and drinking their blood while they sleep? Certainly not. I think the mythological idea of child-killing must be taken symbolically; it represents, at least to me, the prevention of successful reproduction, the interruption of a genetic line. This motif resurfaced in the witchcraft mythology of the European witch hysteria, which claimed that witches cannibalized children and practiced sodomy with the Devil. Of course there were probably not any real witches that did these things, but it's the mythological motifs I'm focusing on here: cannibalizing children, of course, represents a fear of not continuing one's genetic line, and sodomy was looked upon in a similar light because it is a way of having sex without getting pregnant.

In medieval Christianity Lilith became the basis for the succubus legends, which had it that men who slept at night were often attacked by female demons that "made love" to them while they slept and stole their seed. The stealing of a man's seed is related to Genesis 38 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2038;&version=31;), which states that the "spilling of one's semen on the ground" is a mortal sin. The recurring theme here is the failure of human men to procreate. The mythology presents Lilith and the succubi as vampiric forces that do not drain one's blood, but one's ability to make children. Hence, the "infertility goddess" identification.

I think Lilith is brilliant- she reacted with cleverness when God himself-in true Old Testament fashion-threatened to kill her children when she wouldn't do his bidding-essentially he wanted to play twist the titty, and she won. I regard her as the first witch, as by uttering the first spell (God's "secret" name) she flew up out of Eden and away from Adam.

Indeed, I agree that Lilith was the first witch. Eve, IMO, was the second, and no less important. Because of them, I believe there is a strong but secret connection between women and Melek Ta'us (who is the one that gave Eve the Fruit of Knowledge, with good intentions and at the command of God, in my belief). This connection is reflected in the fact that the Peacock Angel is usually depicted as a very effeminate male figure.

Unlike some feminists -the UNfeminine, anti-man,unsexual ones-who have latched onto Lilith, she's the ultimate feminine: a protective mother, who is sexual and sensual and not against men at all. She's against unrighteous, women- hating men, especially those who use women for their own needs-sexual, financial, emotional, or otherwise-who abuse amd mistreat women. Do you abuse children? Don't let one of Lilith's children catch up to you. :smash:

The thing I don't like about the super-ultrafeminist types who identify with Lilith is that they forget one very crucial point about her role in the Jewish myth: she rebelled against Adam because she considered herself to be his equal, not his superior. Is Lilith a feminist? Most certainly, but only by the original definition of the term: someone who believes that women and men should be treated as equals.

I believe that Lilith has children that continue to walk this earth and serve her, whether they realize it or not. The rape crisis counselors, the SVU's, domestic violence workers, and so on. Lilith's children are not those overcome with darkness and have no life outside their gothy fantasy world, allowing indulgence to become compulsion, but are those who live with the darkness and control it instead of the other way around.

I agree, and I would also include abortion doctors, contraceptive manufacturers, prostitutes (both male and female), and the suffragists of the 19th and early 20th centuries in the list of Lilith's adopted children.

[WarriorZhanna]

Wow, that's a lot of information. Thanks everyone for your input, I really am more knowledgeable about Lilith. This really made me re-consider getting in touch with her, in a way. I'll certainly only get in touch when I'm completely sure of it. Like I said before, I think I might just try one brief encounter with her just to see if there is anything about her that makes sense to me or not, if she is what I was seeking for or not. I will let you all know how it goes if I do it.

[aluokaloo]

I've met up with her once, and because of her darker history i admit it i was kinda afraid of her, but when i was in her presence she was frightening the first time, the second time i felt freer then a bird.

[BlackLili]

I've met Lilith. It's like meeting a hard-lived woman, who doesn't care if she's misunderstood or not. You have to understand, she has existed since the dawn of time. She is very old, and we do not impress her with what we think we know. She knows what it means to be hungry and cold, ejected from her home. She is the streetwalker with nowhere to go. She is the dirty-faced wanton child, willing to do anything for a few coins to feed herself with. She is the courtesan, dripping with the precious jewels of kings and noblemen, making changes to history with the thrust of her hips. She is the warrior, who knows what it means to watch husbands, sons, daughters, lovers all die around her in battle. She is the ruler, who knows the pain of hearing of the deaths of her countrymen as they defend their land.

One of the most attractive things about Lilith is that she has such a wide appeal. To women and to men who like strong women, she is the ultimate in sexy. She is confidant, strong, independent, beautiful, and a host of other favorable adjectives. She is exactly what patriarchal tyrannies fear most. It's part of her appeal in this day and age to be both the Underdog and Top Bitch all at once.

At least, that's who she is to me.

[LunaWolfe]

Lillith has such an interesting personality that it's hard to explain her all at once. Though from postings from everyone, everything that has be said seems to be true to me. I think it all really depends on her mood too.

[WarriorZhanna]

When I went to sleep last night I felt really crappy.. I felt so depressed and down for some reason. As I was crying I closed my eyes and sort of saw Lillith in my mind.. I asked her to show me how to feel more sensual or something. Her presence felt dark but I also felt wisdom in her: she knows the mind of a human, she knows manipulation, slyness, all those things, you can't trick her cuz she's the one who can trick you back worse because of all the things she's seen herself.

I think she had fair hair though not too fair, she appeared nude and had this snake crawling around her. When she spoke she moved her arms graciously in a snake-like way and her voice sounded kind of low and seductive in a whispery way. What surprised me was that she didn't require anything of me but I did get some odd visions of myself in the future giving birth.. and even saw my future kids that I will have with my current fiance.
She just instantly taught me some kind of a sexual exercise (kind of reminds me of kama sutra) that releases the sexual energy from where it's hidden. I know this sounds odd but she told me to imagine a black snake is penetrating me. I did hesitate a bit but then I gave it a go, it was I who called her, after all. Besides, I'm too curious.
When I had finished the exercise I felt extremely good. Before that I felt nauseatic but the nausea was completely gone, I had this really fresh feeling inside my chest. It was amazing. I was so surprised. I didn't think that was possible. I thought it was just me imagining she was there and teaching me something. I even felt happier, I didn't feel that sadness anymore. And then I fell asleep and slept really well.

What do you think of this? O.o

[Artiste-LiLi]

I've met Lilith. It's like meeting a hard-lived woman, who doesn't care if she's misunderstood or not. You have to understand, she has existed since the dawn of time. She is very old, and we do not impress her with what we think we know. She knows what it means to be hungry and cold, ejected from her home. She is the streetwalker with nowhere to go. She is the dirty-faced wanton child, willing to do anything for a few coins to feed herself with. She is the courtesan, dripping with the precious jewels of kings and noblemen, making changes to history with the thrust of her hips. She is the warrior, who knows what it means to watch husbands, sons, daughters, lovers all die around her in battle. She is the ruler, who knows the pain of hearing of the deaths of her countrymen as they defend their land.

One of the most attractive things about Lilith is that she has such a wide appeal. To women and to men who like strong women, she is the ultimate in sexy. She is confidant, strong, independent, beautiful, and a host of other favorable adjectives. She is exactly what patriarchal tyrannies fear most. It's part of her appeal in this day and age to be both the Underdog and Top Bitch all at once.

At least, that's who she is to me.


And for me she feels nothing like what you describe....though I know that is in her as well......

For me she is a warm, soft, loving embrace...a soft place to fall...a dark, well protected place in which to be safe....for me her touch is like being wrapped in the loving arms of a mother and fierce protectress...she gives me a sense of security....when she is with me I feel like I am wrapped in the softest, warmest, snuggiest blanket you could ever imagine....I can feel her hold me and stroke my hair with love, she provides me comfort, she has healed me and I know that with/in her I am safe and I am loved beyond reason. There are many times I have gone to her with an issue or problem and asked her help...she has always answered, helped me and asked nothing of me in return except respect.

[darkchild]

For me, Lilith is much more than can be described in a few words.

I have spent some time learning about her after she came to me in a dream. Yes, she can be frightening, but she is also empowering. I have been a bellydancer for years now, so maybe that is one reason I connect so readily to her. I am also past childbearing in my life, that may be another reason.

I know, for myself, that she gives me strength for the things I NEED to do. I have learned a sense of discipline and control of myself from her. Those things have been an integral part of healing for me and I treasure my relationship with her for her help.

She is so complex, there is no way to sum it up in a few words. If it's right for you to pursue this, you will know it. :)

[WarriorZhanna]

For me, Lilith is much more than can be described in a few words.

I have spent some time learning about her after she came to me in a dream. Yes, she can be frightening, but she is also empowering. I have been a bellydancer for years now, so maybe that is one reason I connect so readily to her.

I agree! I also think this is one of the reasons why I've felt like connecting to her because I had a huge interest in bellydancing & I've been meaning try it for a long time!


I know, for myself, that she gives me strength for the things I NEED to do. I have learned a sense of discipline and control of myself from her. Those things have been an integral part of healing for me and I treasure my relationship with her for her help.

She does give strength indeed. She seemed very straight-forward to me, like "go and get it done". She has this warrioress-like spirit.


She is so complex, there is no way to sum it up in a few words. If it's right for you to pursue this, you will know it. :)

I think this is what sums her up: she is many things and many things are her - she is complex! So it's hard to describe her. :)

[LadyCelt]

I think certain deities seem more dark or negative because they're protrayed that way. It can be hard to get past the stigma in our minds; especially with one portrayed so badly as Lilith.

[WarriorZhanna]

I agree with what the poster said above.