Child Hurting Himself

[Lorrie]

I really need some ideas really bad! My grandson, when he gets mad, he lashes out, hitting, spitting, then hitting his head on something. This has been going on for a few months now, I have tried ignoring him, time outs, quietly telling him no while pushing his hand back down. I cannot get him to stop this. He just hit his head really hard this time. The other problem is when he hurts himself, well, most people say "ow, that hurts, I won't do that again" but no, every one of my grandkids have do it more ,to see if it will hurt every time I guess. ( My step-grandson also had the habit of hurting himself, I am seeing this little guy doing the same stuff, pinching himself and doing weird little things to hurt himself). Kyle has a habit of getting mad when I tell him NO , and head butts me, I mean this kid hits hard enough that he knocked a tooth right out of me. THAT hurt for a few weeks. He is only 2 years old. I don't know what my son does about this at home, usually he just blames everything on me these days. I have had to yell at my mom more than once for giving him attention when he hits his head, I kinda wonder if this happens at home, which could be why he is still doing it. I just do not know how to handle this, I don't want him hurting himself. This kind of stuff is why we do not see the step grandson, the mark he left on himself got blamed on us when his other grandmother saw him.

[Philosophia]

I may be way off base (I don't know much about children) but it sounds like he needs a constructive way of getting the anger out of his system without resorting to violence. Do you have a punching bag, pillows, etc. that can be used as a tool to help take out some of that violence? What about sports, running, throwing soft balls, etc.?

Sometimes the best defense against this is to just ignore them (I know how hard that is) because it can be used as an attention seeking device by the child (especially if they know you will come after them). Maybe put him a corner with nothing around (totally bare walls, no toys, books, etc.) that he can use against you.

One of my nephews does something similar (banging head against walls) and his mother turns him around, looks into his eyes and loudly says "Stop it, right now". If he doesn't stop it, she moves him to a corner away from everything and leaves him there. If he continues on, its usually to illicit attention from his mother but she ignores and he usually gives up. My sister-in-law told me its like a "battle of wits" and who will break first. If you don't break, you may be able to stop this cycle of self-harm.

Like I said before, I don't know much about children but I hope I have helped in someway.

[Myzterio]

Right. Well, to start off, try to figure out why he does it.
It's usually, to my (admittedly only vaguely profession-related) knowledge, because the child feels he needs to draw attention and that this is a good way, he cannot express himself properly, he is frustrated and can't find any way to vent his frustration or it's an obsessive behaviour pattern.

Now, it wasn't entirely clear, so I should ask: does he hurt himself intentionally?
It sounded that way, so I'll assume so. And I may be slightly blunt, for which I apologise in advance.
I suspect- due to other posts of yours about your son, his spouse and their children - that it may be because he doesn't get the attention he needs at home. That behaviour will remain when he's with you.
If that is the case, the best solution is the obvious: give the child attention when he's good, and ignore it when he's hurting himself, unless he's being a genuine risk to himself. The thing is... You've been doing excellently.
And it obviously hasn't worked so far, so that leads to two possibilities: either the behaviour is encouraged at home, or there is another cause.

The only thing you can do about it to check which it is, is talk to your son and his wife. I understand that's hard, because she doesn't seem to keen on listening, but it's the only thing I think will work.

Just one question: are there specific things that trigger this behaviour, as opposed to any time he gets angry?


ETA: Philosophia, that sounds like fairly typical behaviour, yes. My cousin used to do the same, I think. It really depends on the cause, but I suspect it's just an attention seeking device, like you said.

[Lorrie]

I may be way off base (I don't know much about children) but it sounds like he needs a constructive way of getting the anger out of his system without resorting to violence. Do you have a punching bag, pillows, etc. that can be used as a tool to help take out some of that violence? What about sports, running, throwing soft balls, etc.?

Sometimes the best defense against this is to just ignore them (I know how hard that is) because it can be used as an attention seeking device by the child (especially if they know you will come after them). Maybe put him a corner with nothing around (totally bare walls, no toys, books, etc.) that he can use against you.

One of my nephews does something similar (banging head against walls) and his mother turns him around, looks into his eyes and loudly says "Stop it, right now". If he doesn't stop it, she moves him to a corner away from everything and leaves him there. If he continues on, its usually to illicit attention from his mother but she ignores and he usually gives up. My sister-in-law told me its like a "battle of wits" and who will break first. If you don't break, you may be able to stop this cycle of self-harm.

Like I said before, I don't know much about children but I hope I have helped in someway.



Actually, this helps alot. I know I am not the only one going through this kind of battle. It is very frustrating to see a child behave this way, and feel so lost and confused. I do for some reason have the pillow that Jamie had bought for the oldest one when she was having this happen with him. Maybe I can get him to take the frustrations out on it. He IS trying to get attention by it, I agree with that. I WILL try your suggestions, I am getting desperate.

[Willow Rosette]

Lorrie how often does he get spanked at home? I read somewhere once that when kids get spanked alot or even consistantly they can think they deserve to be hit and if someone else isnt doing it they should. I have no idea if this is true or not, I very rarely spank Toria but it is a thought.....maybe??

[Lunacie]

My oldest granddaughter did that for awhile at the age of about 3, getting frustrated and banging her head on the floor. Scared us to death when she banged it on the cement sidewalk one time. At that age they can have a really hard time expressing their feelings and frustrations. As they become more verbal they usually stop doing it.

[Pagan Warrior]

I think everyone has some good advice on this and perhaps consulting a family counselor would help too? I have to chuckle because my mother probably would have backhanded me the other direction :lol: ahhh how times have changed :)

[Lorrie]

Right. Well, to start off, try to figure out why he does it.
It's usually, to my (admittedly only vaguely profession-related) knowledge, because the child feels he needs to draw attention and that this is a good way, he cannot express himself properly, he is frustrated and can't find any way to vent his frustration or it's an obsessive behaviour pattern.

Now, it wasn't entirely clear, so I should ask: does he hurt himself intentionally?
It sounded that way, so I'll assume so. And I may be slightly blunt, for which I apologise in advance.
I suspect- due to other posts of yours about your son, his spouse and their children - that it may be because he doesn't get the attention he needs at home. That behaviour will remain when he's with you.
If that is the case, the best solution is the obvious: give the child attention when he's good, and ignore it when he's hurting himself, unless he's being a genuine risk to himself. The thing is... You've been doing excellently.
And it obviously hasn't worked so far, so that leads to two possibilities: either the behaviour is encouraged at home, or there is another cause.

The only thing you can do about it to check which it is, is talk to your son and his wife. I understand that's hard, because she doesn't seem to keen on listening, but it's the only thing I think will work.

Just one question: are there specific things that trigger this behaviour, as opposed to any time he gets angry?


ETA: Philosophia, that sounds like fairly typical behaviour, yes. My cousin used to do the same, I think. It really depends on the cause, but I suspect it's just an attention seeking device, like you said.


I am not sure if he is doing it to hurt himself, or to get attention. Or maybe both? But yes, he is doing it intentionally.
I'm afraid we have just days ago seen how my son is treating his kids now that he no longer lives here, and NO , it doesn't look like he is getting attention there. My son has most everyone in the family upset with him for how he is treating them, as we all got to see it at the family dinner Sunday. I'm afraid my talking won't help anymore. Several months ago it would have, but now since he has been with this gf, he hates my guts ( we used to be very very close). We barely speak at all, when he does say anything to me, it is cold and short. His wife died a year ago September, they had been living with me for two months then. I had been helping him raise ..........OK, truth, I was RAISING the kids until he moved out with his new gf in mid-August. Now they are still with me 12 waking hours just about every day. The new gf is pregnant. I won't go into it, everyone has heard lots about it on WOYM.
Kyle does this when I tell him NO. It doesn't matter if it is something he cannot have, cannot do, whatever. He will start to cry, then begin swinging at anything close by, or just hit himself. Then he spits, I tell him don't spit. Then he hits himself in the head, then bangs his head on something, usually his little foam chair, this time it was an end table, and he hit it kinda hard. It didn't swell up much, and barely is visible, but I am at my wits end with this behavior! I am afraid one of these times he is going to hurt himself bad!

[Lorrie]

Lorrie how often does he get spanked at home? I read somewhere once that when kids get spanked alot or even consistantly they can think they deserve to be hit and if someone else isnt doing it they should. I have no idea if this is true or not, I very rarely spank Toria but it is a thought.....maybe??


No spankings at all. Jamie used it, but we don't.

[Lorrie]

My oldest granddaughter did that for awhile at the age of about 3, getting frustrated and banging her head on the floor. Scared us to death when she banged it on the cement sidewalk one time. At that age they can have a really hard time expressing their feelings and frustrations. As they become more verbal they usually stop doing it.

He is just beginning to verbalize over the past two months, I mean actually trying to say real words. Maybe this will help. And he HAS banged his head on the floor quite often too!

[Lorrie]

I think everyone has some good advice on this and perhaps consulting a family counselor would help too? I have to chuckle because my mother probably would have backhanded me the other direction :lol: ahhh how times have changed :)


In those days, we would have NOT EVER wanted to do that again, eh?:T Family counselor I am afraid is out of my hands. I hope maybe some of the advice on here will help. I don't know just how much good it will do if my son isn't taking any steps at home about this, but then they are only there a few waking hours, about 3 hours a day at home before they get shipped over here. ( My son insists the kids be kept up until they pick him up after work, which is usually 12:30am so the kids will sleep in late for them)

[Myzterio]

I am not sure if he is doing it to hurt himself, or to get attention. Or maybe both? But yes, he is doing it intentionally.
I'm afraid we have just days ago seen how my son is treating his kids now that he no longer lives here, and NO , it doesn't look like he is getting attention there. My son has most everyone in the family upset with him for how he is treating them, as we all got to see it at the family dinner Sunday. I'm afraid my talking won't help anymore. Several months ago it would have, but now since he has been with this gf, he hates my guts ( we used to be very very close). We barely speak at all, when he does say anything to me, it is cold and short. His wife died a year ago September, they had been living with me for two months then. I had been helping him raise ..........OK, truth, I was RAISING the kids until he moved out with his new gf in mid-August. Now they are still with me 12 waking hours just about every day. The new gf is pregnant. I won't go into it, everyone has heard lots about it on WOYM.
Kyle does this when I tell him NO. It doesn't matter if it is something he cannot have, cannot do, whatever. He will start to cry, then begin swinging at anything close by, or just hit himself. Then he spits, I tell him don't spit. Then he hits himself in the head, then bangs his head on something, usually his little foam chair, this time it was an end table, and he hit it kinda hard. It didn't swell up much, and barely is visible, but I am at my wits end with this behavior! I am afraid one of these times he is going to hurt himself bad!

When you tell him 'no'? That means it's likely a way to push his way (everyone, I'll have a 'duh', please), and to get attention. Like Lunacie pointed out (ye gods, I forgot to mention! Thanks Lunacie!) it's something that they grow out of, but it's important you stimulate other behaviour. Seeing as you're the person who spends most time with them, it's likely you can steer his behaviour in the right direction with time.
Hugging is a good thing! ;)

[kotu]

if you would be willing to try crystals you could try some rhodonite

he wouldnt have to wear it just keep it in his room or something

learn about cleansing and charging though

[Seren_]

My son's also 2 and headbutts. He's been doing it since he was about a year old and on some occasions he's given himself a good crack on the head. Sometimes he'll try and take a run at something so he can butt it harder.

Usually I'll ignore the behaviour as he's doing it. Then when he's calmed down I get down to his level and talk to him. If it's because I've told him no, I explain why I've said no to him and that he doesn't have to headbutt things when he's frustrated and that he needs to use his words instead. I don't expect him to fully understand just yet, but it gets the message across that his behaviour isn't going to get him anywhere; that I'm staying firm but I'm sympathetic.

Since he's been doing it for a while, he's starting to get more discerning in what he hits, and most of the time I can tell when he's thinking about doing it so I tell him it's pointless and it's not going to change anything. Our house is pebbledashed, so I've seen him run for it a couple of times, change his mind and drop to the floor instead :lol:

I've found ignoring the behaviour as it happens to be the most effective method for my son, but I think it's important to encourage him to try and talk because the headbutting is basically a way for him to vent his frustration and anger and he needs to find a more appropriate way.

He's yet to hurt himself seriously, beyond the odd small bruise so I can 'ignore' it usually, but on at least one occasion I've had to physically restrain him (the running headbutts). When I have to do this I drop to the floor and hold him in my arms, facing away from me, with one hand restraining his head as much as I can - you can do that and prevent flapping arms and legs too, but it's important to be on the floor so as not to lose your balance if they get really bad. I don't speak to him while he's like this, so it's effectively ignoring him, even though I'm holding him. Then when it's over, I talk to him calmly as before.

No matter how extreme his reaction, the most important thing is to keep your reaction low key. Express shock or frustration and it will give them the sort of reaction they want. Even if you're worried about it, keep a blase and matter of fact attitude and they won't be tempted to carry on for effect. In theory ;)

My son rarely gets physical with me, but on those occasions I have a zero tolerance for that. Usually if he misbehaves he gets a warning before a timeout, but if he acts violently - headbutting me, hitting etc - then he gets put on the step for two minutes. Generally I don't tend to discipline the headbutting because he's just trying to deal with his feelings and I feel it's probably better to try and give him the tools to understand those feelings than punish him for it. Violence, though, is never acceptable, and I set a clear boundary for that.

The most important thing in whatever way you decide to tackle the problem is that it has to be a consistent approach. It may take a while to see any positive results, though, so try and stick with it.

ETA: Now my son's learned the effectiveness of the word 'no', the headbutting has become rare, so it seems to be working. Now he stands and points at the ground saying 'No!' very emphatically if things aren't going his way. It gets old pretty quick, but much less hazardous, especially in shops...

[Lorrie]

When you tell him 'no'? That means it's likely a way to push his way (everyone, I'll have a 'duh', please), and to get attention. Like Lunacie pointed out (ye gods, I forgot to mention! Thanks Lunacie!) it's something that they grow out of, but it's important you stimulate other behaviour. Seeing as you're the person who spends most time with them, it's likely you can steer his behaviour in the right direction with time.
Hugging is a good thing! ;)


OK, I will mention, yes my grandbabies are just a LITTLE spoiled. I think anyone that knows me knows this, I bore everyone to death talking about them all of the time. Hugging is constant here! We spend most of their time here all cuddled up on the couch. They know they are loved here! :T I use the comment on good behavior, ignore bad type of discipline here, unless someone has been hurt. Bad behavior gets time outs, alone. I learned this from Jamie before she died. ( My kids got time outs, but they were much longer than the ones these days, plus, I had VERY VERY well behaved kids, I rarely had to do more than look sad and they did whatever I wanted them to. This is beginning to work with the older one, Caitlyn, one sad look and she is putty in my hands unless she is sick or just grouchy) speaking of the little angels, I hear undesireable noises coming from the kitchen!! I'll be back as soon as I can.

[Lorrie]

if you would be willing to try crystals you could try some rhodonite

he wouldnt have to wear it just keep it in his room or something

learn about cleansing and charging though

I am a crystal freak. They have rose quartz under their bads, home and here. I have crystals placed all over the house to keep it calm and loving energies here for them.

[Myzterio]

Yes, I figured that out from the posts, I enjoy reading those... :lilangel: I wasn't trying to get you to hug them more, everyone here knows you do that plenty, just telling you you're doing the right thing. :D

Just give it some time.

Also, yes, Seren_ is right. I wasn't going to mention holding them like that because, essentially, you're still giving him attention, as little as it is. Just use it only when necessary (when he starts putting himself at serious risk) and don't interact with him otherwise, and it should be okay. Excellent advice, Seren_! :)

[Lorrie]

The most important thing in whatever way you decide to tackle the problem is that it has to be a consistent approach. It may take a while to see any positive results, though, so try and stick with it.

ETA: Now my son's learned the effectiveness of the word 'no', the headbutting has become rare, so it seems to be working. Now he stands and points at the ground saying 'No!' very emphatically if things aren't going his way. It gets old pretty quick, but much less hazardous, especially in shops...[/quote]


You are my hero! ( You all are just for helping me feel some hope in this situation!!!) If you don't mind, I will print out your post to have close by to remind me what to do. That is very helpful!

[Lorrie]

Yes, I figured that out from the posts, I enjoy reading those... :lilangel: I wasn't trying to get you to hug them more, everyone here knows you do that plenty, just telling you you're doing the right thing. :D

Just give it some time.

Also, yes, Seren_ is right. I wasn't going to mention holding them like that because, essentially, you're still giving him attention, as little as it is. Just use it only when necessary (when he starts putting himself at serious risk) and don't interact with him otherwise, and it should be okay. Excellent advice, Seren_! :)


I know what Seren means, my son used to do this with Christopher, it helps them drain out the energy and calm down. It used to work well for them, I had forgot all about that!

[wolf]

Look into getting a behavior therapist involved. Extinguishing of self-injurious behavior is possible, but requires very clear and consistent responses to negative behaviors. It's best if the treatment plan can be tailored to the child and the situation, thus the need for a professional.

Contact the mental health side of his health insurance plan. There should be numbers on the back of the card. There should be a mental health care management organization, regardless of whether the child has private or state-supported insurance benefits. You may also be able to check with the child's pediatrician for recommendations for care providers.

[Lorrie]

Look into getting a behavior therapist involved. Extinguishing of self-injurious behavior is possible, but requires very clear and consistent responses to negative behaviors. It's best if the treatment plan can be tailored to the child and the situation, thus the need for a professional.

Contact the mental health side of his health insurance plan. There should be numbers on the back of the card. There should be a mental health care management organization, regardless of whether the child has private or state-supported insurance benefits. You may also be able to check with the child's pediatrician for recommendations for care providers.


I'm afraid that is out of my hands. I am just the babysitter. Because of the problems with the step grandchild, my son won't go near any type of professional help. This child did this, only much worse, and protective services wouldn't believe us, they made life hell. My son is scared to death of agency help now. I am too. They accused us of punching this child. They harassed us for several months until we finally had to seek legal counsel to make them stop. The mark Chris had on him was wayyyyy too small to be an adult fist, every person in the deceased mothers family stood up for us, nothing mattered. ( he had hit his head on the doorknob in his bedroom, it matched perfectly even)They refused to stop. I was close to suicide.I had hoped maybe then they would blame it on me and leave them all alone. I really don't want to go there again.

[Ariste]

I don't know that this is that, but it's something to watch for. For me it was never about attention but I started self harming at age 4. I burnt myself on a lamp the first time. I found I could get a high of sorts off of it. It's something that I still struggle with. My parents didn't find out about it until I was about 22 or 23 i think. If he's doing stuff in front of you it's more likely for attention or out of frustration, but keep an eye that it doesn't morph into something else.

[Glowy]

(((hugs))) i hope you can help your grandbaby

[Pagan Warrior]

In those days, we would have NOT EVER wanted to do that again, eh?:T Family counselor I am afraid is out of my hands. I hope maybe some of the advice on here will help. I don't know just how much good it will do if my son isn't taking any steps at home about this, but then they are only there a few waking hours, about 3 hours a day at home before they get shipped over here. ( My son insists the kids be kept up until they pick him up after work, which is usually 12:30am so the kids will sleep in late for them)

Well quite honestly I think I turned out okay and I have a great deal of respect and adoration for my mother. I admit I'm not as harsh with my kids but I'm not above spankings when they're warranted.

I wish you the best of luck :)

[Juniper138]

My mom helped raise two of my cousins for a while. They lost their dad at a young age, and mom re-married pretty quickly after that. The kids couldn't cope. Its impossible for a child so young to fully understand a situation like that, let alone express their feelings. Kids are born capable of all the feeling an adult has, but not the ability to understand or express them. It sounds to me like a lot of this problem stems from the loss of mom and the introduction of the gf, coupled with the lack of attention from dad.

A few things that helped my cousins:

1) Make the deceased parent a big part of their lives. Pictures, stories, talk about mommy all the time, let them know she is watching over them. That she is right there beside them, only they can not see or hear her. Let them draw pictures and make cards for mommy in Summerland. Encourage them to cry, scream, stomp ... vent their feeling about mommy being gone in a controlled and supervised environment. Even toddlers need to grieve. Understand the kids will grieve mommy ALL THEIR LIVES.

2) LOTS of positive attention. It sounds like they gets lots of that from you, its too bad your son and his new gf is not more open to talking to you right now. But it sounds like the kids only "see" daddy when they are sleeping. NOT GOOD.

3) Video the behavior, a few times, and store it. This will cover your butt. Just in case.

4) If ignoring the behavior is not working, or they are so wound up you are really worried about them hurting themselves, distraction works well. When my cousin Michelle would hold her breath, beat herself etc and it got really nasty, mom would throw a cup of cold water in her face. The shock of it often helped her to snap out of it. Mom kept a cup of cold water in the fridge at all times, just in case. As soon as the water was tossed, while the child was still shocked and surprised, mom would scoop her up and hold her close and kiss her and dry her off with a warm snuggly towel.

5) Teach them how to express their feelings, a kiddie punching bag is great, as is being allowed to throw a pillow around. A child that young cannot SAY what he feels, but maybe he can DRAW it. I remember Peter and Michelle coming up to mom with paper covered with red swirls and black slashes and they would say "this is how I feel" Mom would scoop them up and tell them she understands perfectly and then let them tear the picture to pieces, to help make the feeling go away.

6) There are books out there for families dealing with a grieving child. Buy two copies of each one you find. Make the second copies Xmas gifts for your son. Read the others ones yourself. There are support groups, forums etc out there too, give them a try. There are also books out there for the kids you can read to them that really do help.

It sounds like the grandkids are very very lucky to have you in their lives. good luck!

HUGS

[Lorrie]

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate your time to read this and post when you had something that may be useful. I have to admit, I was worried about it becoming a self-harming pattern, but it sounds like hopefully it is nothing but a child's tantrum for attention, but I will keep an eye out. I do feel a bit more confident about handling it now, maybe that will be the biggest help of all. The behavior was disturbing to me, and I am sure he picked that up quickly, even when I look the other way and ignore him. He threw a few more tantrums tonight, but every time he went to hit his head on the floor, he stopped, thought about it, then sat back up. Maybe this time he hit it hard enough to realize, that hurts and it's not fun. I looked away so he wouldn't know I saw it, and had to restrain myself from giggling. :gagged:

[Lorrie]

My mom helped raise two of my cousins for a while. They lost their dad at a young age, and mom re-married pretty quickly after that. The kids couldn't cope. Its impossible for a child so young to fully understand a situation like that, let alone express their feelings. Kids are born capable of all the feeling an adult has, but not the ability to understand or express them. It sounds to me like a lot of this problem stems from the loss of mom and the introduction of the gf, coupled with the lack of attention from dad.

A few things that helped my cousins:

1) Make the deceased parent a big part of their lives. Pictures, stories, talk about mommy all the time, let them know she is watching over them. That she is right there beside them, only they can not see or hear her. Let them draw pictures and make cards for mommy in Summerland. Encourage them to cry, scream, stomp ... vent their feeling about mommy being gone in a controlled and supervised environment. Even toddlers need to grieve. Understand the kids will grieve mommy ALL THEIR LIVES.

2) LOTS of positive attention. It sounds like they gets lots of that from you, its too bad your son and his new gf is not more open to talking to you right now. But it sounds like the kids only "see" daddy when they are sleeping. NOT GOOD.

3) Video the behavior, a few times, and store it. This will cover your butt. Just in case.

4) If ignoring the behavior is not working, or they are so wound up you are really worried about them hurting themselves, distraction works well. When my cousin Michelle would hold her breath, beat herself etc and it got really nasty, mom would throw a cup of cold water in her face. The shock of it often helped her to snap out of it. Mom kept a cup of cold water in the fridge at all times, just in case. As soon as the water was tossed, while the child was still shocked and surprised, mom would scoop her up and hold her close and kiss her and dry her off with a warm snuggly towel.

5) Teach them how to express their feelings, a kiddie punching bag is great, as is being allowed to throw a pillow around. A child that young cannot SAY what he feels, but maybe he can DRAW it. I remember Peter and Michelle coming up to mom with paper covered with red swirls and black slashes and they would say "this is how I feel" Mom would scoop them up and tell them she understands perfectly and then let them tear the picture to pieces, to help make the feeling go away.

6) There are books out there for families dealing with a grieving child. Buy two copies of each one you find. Make the second copies Xmas gifts for your son. Read the others ones yourself. There are support groups, forums etc out there too, give them a try. There are also books out there for the kids you can read to them that really do help.

It sounds like the grandkids are very very lucky to have you in their lives. good luck!

HUGS



Honey, that just gave me shivers. It sounds REAL familiar. If you ask either of them where mommy is, they will look up and smile and say " way way up high in the sky with the stars with Uncle Chad watching over me" I have her pic hanging over each of their beds. We find something every day to bring mommy into the conversation( hm, maybe this is why new gf hates my guts so much????) I have several pics hanging on the wall of the kids, and several of them of Jamie with each of them. I tell them often how proud mommy has to be of them. I really wish her family would take a bit of a part in their lives. They seem to have only cared about the oldest child. It is their loss, but still, it would be nice for the kids to hear things about mommy growing up too, things that I don't know about to tell them. Sad thing was at the funeral, they wanted to put up a board full of pics of Jamie. They had to get pics from me, I had more pics of her than they did. I only had a few years worth though.
My worst problem in this is where to draw the line. Where is the boundary between doing right for the kids, and stepping on toes. My son has already threatened a few times about getting someone else to babysit- which was unheard of until gf entered the picture. I am worried about pushing things too far and have him send the kids somewhere else. I don't think he could do this as he rarely can afford to pay me, he would never be able to afford anyone- not many will do it for free for these hours!( I wouldn't charge either if I had other income) It makes me feel like I am on the edge not knowing if I will drop off. I guess all I can do is to keep trying my best, and hope it all works out OK.

[Willow Rosette]

:hugz:

[Cat]

This is normal behavior for his age.developmental stage. My dd did the same just before she turned 2.

What I ended up doing was counter-intuitive, because normally I ignore tantrums. But I couldn't ignore the hard head-banging that she did, it wasn't safe.

Instead, I'd tell her, "no head" and hold my hand behind her head to cushion it. I'd try to verbalize for her what had her so angry/frustrated. I'd hold her and help her calm down since she clearly couldn't do it herself.

After a month or so, the head banging trailed off.

Obviously all kids are different, and what worked for us won't necessarily help you. But IMO its worth a try for a little while.

The other thing to bear in mind is that you have a warning--the spitting--that he's about to escalate. How about instead of saying not to spit, you give him an alternative option at that point? "No spitting--poound play-doh" and hand him a pile of play-doh, perhaps?

[Seren_]

This is normal behavior for his age.developmental stage. My dd did the same just before she turned 2.

Yup, it's completely normal for this age, and it's more common in boys. Some children even do it as a sort of tension release to help them get to sleep, or if they're in pain (like an earache). If it continues beyond the age of about 4, or if you start to feel that it's going beyond normal 'venting' behaviour, then it's a good idea to speak to a professional.

I forgot to mention distraction techniques as well. It doesn't work for my son, but I know other people who use it with their kids to head off a tantrum to good effect. One of the most important things for Tom is to make sure that he's not over-tired or over-stimulated. He'll be more prone to acting out if he's tired or has been very excited by something, so in the past I've made sure he had enough naptime and plenty of quiet time if he gets like that. He's grown out of his naps now, though, so it's just quiet time.

[Lunacie]

Honey, that just gave me shivers. It sounds REAL familiar. If you ask either of them where mommy is, they will look up and smile and say " way way up high in the sky with the stars with Uncle Chad watching over me" I have her pic hanging over each of their beds. We find something every day to bring mommy into the conversation( hm, maybe this is why new gf hates my guts so much????) I have several pics hanging on the wall of the kids, and several of them of Jamie with each of them. I tell them often how proud mommy has to be of them. I really wish her family would take a bit of a part in their lives. They seem to have only cared about the oldest child. It is their loss, but still, it would be nice for the kids to hear things about mommy growing up too, things that I don't know about to tell them. Sad thing was at the funeral, they wanted to put up a board full of pics of Jamie. They had to get pics from me, I had more pics of her than they did. I only had a few years worth though.
My worst problem in this is where to draw the line. Where is the boundary between doing right for the kids, and stepping on toes. My son has already threatened a few times about getting someone else to babysit- which was unheard of until gf entered the picture. I am worried about pushing things too far and have him send the kids somewhere else. I don't think he could do this as he rarely can afford to pay me, he would never be able to afford anyone- not many will do it for free for these hours!( I wouldn't charge either if I had other income) It makes me feel like I am on the edge not knowing if I will drop off. I guess all I can do is to keep trying my best, and hope it all works out OK.

I suspect 2+2 really does make 4 here. That's a tricky line to be straddling, reminding the kids of their mother without making the GF feel like she's usurping Jamie's place, and I think you're right that she resents you for that. Do you think it would be possible to sit down with your son and his GF and talk about how you just want the kids to be able to remember their mother? Since GF is pregnant herself maybe she can relate to how she'd want her baby to be able to remember her if she died while the baby was still so young.

It certainly sounds like it's possible that your grandbaby is angry about not having everyone living all together anymore, and feels that he is loosing his daddy, which would be very scary for him having lost his mommy. And maybe he's even heard his daddy and the GF talk about not letting them stay with Gramma anymore. I'd bet he would want all those scary thoughts to go away and might try to bash them out of his head, eh. Poor little fellow.

Juniper's mom sounds like a wonderful mother - good advice.

[Lorrie]

Yup, it's completely normal for this age, and it's more common in boys. Some children even do it as a sort of tension release to help them get to sleep, or if they're in pain (like an earache). If it continues beyond the age of about 4, or if you start to feel that it's going beyond normal 'venting' behaviour, then it's a good idea to speak to a professional.

I forgot to mention distraction techniques as well. It doesn't work for my son, but I know other people who use it with their kids to head off a tantrum to good effect. One of the most important things for Tom is to make sure that he's not over-tired or over-stimulated. He'll be more prone to acting out if he's tired or has been very excited by something, so in the past I've made sure he had enough naptime and plenty of quiet time if he gets like that. He's grown out of his naps now, though, so it's just quiet time.



Overtired IS what I think is one of the main issues. My son wants the kids on a different sleep schedule since they moved out. I have to put him down for nap later in the afternoon, and have to keep them awake until 12:30am when my son gets here. They want the kids to sleep later in the mornings so that they can sleep later. Normally he will throw a tantrum whenever he is told to no, or to stop doing whatever he is doing,any negative answer. When he is sleepy, he will intentionally do things he knows he is not supposed to do to.
Normally, this child is bubbly, loving, cuddly, silly, just a joy to be around. He has strong people skills, he loves to make people laugh. He has a smile that can melt your heart. He has a very strong presence when he walks into a room, especially if the room is full of people, he LOVES people. When I take them into the grocery store with me, these two kids ( he and his older sister) get many compliments from, people and lots of attention. They are people magnets. it is not a good thing to try to hurry through a store, it is not gonna happen, they draw people, and people have to stop and talk to them. It would be humorous if it wasn't so frustrating to get out of the store sometimes._whistle_
Anywho, back on topic here. I do think trying distractions is a good one to try. I haven't considered it because I have been trying so hard to ignore the behavior, but it is getting worse and I am afraid he is going to really hurt himself bad. I'm sure any of you that have been through this know how desperate I am feeling right now and am ready to try about anything to stop him from hurting himself!:help:

[Lorrie]

I suspect 2+2 really does make 4 here. That's a tricky line to be straddling, reminding the kids of their mother without making the GF feel like she's usurping Jamie's place, and I think you're right that she resents you for that. Do you think it would be possible to sit down with your son and his GF and talk about how you just want the kids to be able to remember their mother? Since GF is pregnant herself maybe she can relate to how she'd want her baby to be able to remember her if she died while the baby was still so young.

It certainly sounds like it's possible that your grandbaby is angry about not having everyone living all together anymore, and feels that he is loosing his daddy, which would be very scary for him having lost his mommy. And maybe he's even heard his daddy and the GF talk about not letting them stay with Gramma anymore. I'd bet he would want all those scary thoughts to go away and might try to bash them out of his head, eh. Poor little fellow.

Juniper's mom sounds like a wonderful mother - good advice.


They both know how I feel about keeping mommy in the kids memory, my son also hangs her pic above their beds and mentions her often. The gf is very very controlling and jealous and not a nice person. She is also prone to tantrums when she doesn't get her way. I know this sounds mean, normally I have been close to any gf my son has had, ( and am still friends with a few of them)but this woman is awful, just a mean person. She wants to be center of all attention and goes all out to get that attention.
Since they moved out, when the kids get here, my granddaughter, 3 years old, runs to me, crawls up on my lap and curls up in a little ball pressing as close against me as she can. Kyle runs to whoever he sees first, giggling all the way, but then wants to be held close for a little while before making the rounds. My son is not taking good care of the kids since they moved out, he didn't here towards the end either. ( when he began seeing this gf) I suspected he was not taking care of them, Sunday's family dinner proved it. Every one of us were very upset with him.

[Pagan Warrior]

Honey, that just gave me shivers. It sounds REAL familiar. If you ask either of them where mommy is, they will look up and smile and say " way way up high in the sky with the stars with Uncle Chad watching over me" I have her pic hanging over each of their beds. We find something every day to bring mommy into the conversation( hm, maybe this is why new gf hates my guts so much????) I have several pics hanging on the wall of the kids, and several of them of Jamie with each of them. I tell them often how proud mommy has to be of them. I really wish her family would take a bit of a part in their lives. They seem to have only cared about the oldest child. It is their loss, but still, it would be nice for the kids to hear things about mommy growing up too, things that I don't know about to tell them. Sad thing was at the funeral, they wanted to put up a board full of pics of Jamie. They had to get pics from me, I had more pics of her than they did. I only had a few years worth though.
My worst problem in this is where to draw the line. Where is the boundary between doing right for the kids, and stepping on toes. My son has already threatened a few times about getting someone else to babysit- which was unheard of until gf entered the picture. I am worried about pushing things too far and have him send the kids somewhere else. I don't think he could do this as he rarely can afford to pay me, he would never be able to afford anyone- not many will do it for free for these hours!( I wouldn't charge either if I had other income) It makes me feel like I am on the edge not knowing if I will drop off. I guess all I can do is to keep trying my best, and hope it all works out OK.

It is unfortunately but the girlfriend needs to know she can never fill mommy's shoes. That's not to say she can't be a wonderful influence in their lives in her own way but to step and expect to replace that person ... well quite honestly the biology just isn't there. Furthermore, the kids should know about their mother, and they should be proud of her and her accomplishments during her life.

All you can do is your best and hope that your son will see through whatever this woman is trying to do. My best wishes go with you in this endeavor, you are doing good work :)

[Cat]

Now I have read more of this thread. I hear what you say about wanting them to remember their biomom. You are right.

But the gf also has a side to the story. Perhaps it would help to have the adults all sit down together and try to understand where everyone is coming from. Speaking as a stepmom, it's incredibly hard to enter into a pre-existing family. And when the prior mother has passed away it's even harder on everyone.

Family counselling might also help.

[kotu]

Now I have read more of this thread. I hear what you say about wanting them to remember their biomom. You are right.

But the gf also has a side to the story. Perhaps it would help to have the adults all sit down together and try to understand where everyone is coming from. Speaking as a stepmom, it's incredibly hard to enter into a pre-existing family. And when the prior mother has passed away it's even harder on everyone.

Family counselling might also help.

The kid may be more intelligent than any of us

Let him be