Crowley's Views On Spells, Folk Magick, Etc.

[labyrinth]

I've been doing some reading on Aleister Crowley recently just out of interest for the bizarre character that he was. I read where he had a general disdain for things like folk magick and natural magick like his one-time friend Gerald Gardner practiced and taught. Basically he said that using magick to accomplish "mundane" goals like that which spells, folk magick, etc. aims to is far too easy and was sort of like child's play. He thought that pretty much anybody could learn to do such things easily. I have always considered using spells and such to manifest change as somewhat difficult. I'm just wondering what others think. Would you consider this generally an easy endeavour for the most part, provided one knows what they are doing, or is this just Crowley's arrogance about his magickal abilities.

[Cindlady2]

I think it vastly depends on perspective. To the average person any type of magic may be spectacular, and the type Crowley did, well, beyond belief or comprehension! To those of us that incorporate magic into many things we do, and see it as a tool much like using a phone or a computer, it is an easy form of magic. Yes, I believe if one believes in magic and themselves, with a little coaching that anyone could do it. Dose this make it lesser magic? I don't think so. However, you can think of it like using a computer. There are various levels of skill and areas of expertise. Most people with the right training could do them, same as with magic. If others put themselves through the work and training Crowley did, they could do the same magic. But to most of us there is no need to, just as there is no need for most of us to learn C++ or write program.

[Aidron]

I believe that's just one particular person trying to demean something, most likely because A.) They are incapable of doing such or B.) It touches on some buttons of theirs.

I personally know of nothing Crowley ever did that was spectacular, magical or otherwise, outside of his sheer idiocy and snobbery. Then again, I don't hold him or his teachings in very high regard.

[Simply Puzzled]

He thought that pretty much anybody could learn to do such things easily. I have always considered using spells and such to manifest change as somewhat difficult. I'm just wondering what others think. Would you consider this generally an easy endeavour for the most part, provided one knows what they are doing, or is this just Crowley's arrogance about his magickal abilities.

To say Crowley was arrogant is akin to calling the Mediterranean "damp". It's not just that Crowley thought himself above doing simple mundane folk magic, he was, almost quite literally, not living in the same reality as the rest of us where such things are needed. Crowley thought of himself as the new, improved Jesus 2.0. He was so concerned with bringing in this new age that nothing else really mattered. He was the one that was coming in to transform the whole world with drugs and sex. What is folk magic compared to that? But for the rest of us, we tend to live in a world with bills and other mundane concerns. It seems Crowley didn't quite bring in the world he expected. So until that world comes, it seems folk magic is here to stay.

[Darbla]

I personally know of nothing Crowley ever did that was spectacular, magical or otherwise, outside of his sheer idiocy and snobbery.
Amen. But for the near hero worship accorded him, I wonder if I ought to read a biography or two and try to find what he's so looked up to for. Right now the only thing I can figure is that he was so un-Victorian in the Victorian era.

Darbla

[The Amityville Ghost]

To say Crowley was arrogant is akin to calling the Mediterranean "damp". It's not just that Crowley thought himself above doing simple mundane folk magic, he was, almost quite literally, not living in the same reality as the rest of us where such things are needed. Crowley thought of himself as the new, improved Jesus 2.0. He was so concerned with bringing in this new age that nothing else really mattered.

And maybe that is why the Great Beast died in poverty...

I concur with Aidon. I don't hold Crowley's work in high regard, either.

[RainInanna]

I think if you're a theurgist who's magic is targeted on "The Great Work" and contacting your higher self, your will focused far beyond the illusion and temporary nature of the current mundane life, it makes perfect sense to think yourself beyond thaumaturgy. To dismiss it as simple arrogance is to miss seeing it a different way. Is calling him arrogant any better then him calling you naive? Besides, it's like asking if polytheists are arrogant because they feel the powerful gods are willing to work with the silly little humans. A different point of view comes from different perspectives, and shouldn't be swept aside as simple egoism.

I say don't bother worrying over who's doing it wrong, better to ask why they felt it was right.

[The Amityville Ghost]

I agree with your post RainInanna, but when it comes to Crowley, I don't think anybody is doing him an injustice by calling him arrogant or egotistical. I think it's safe to say these were both part of his intended public image. In fact, Crowley himself is probably nodding his astral head right now going, "Damn right I am!"

[aluokaloo]

I myself prefer I guess what they call low magick, the simple things. It depends on life-style and preference, most of the pagan I've know prefer long drawn out ceremony, ritual, and the like and have difficulty with simpler, spontaneous spells and workings. I personally not only don't have the time, but I don't have the interest for a long drawn out spell-casting or ritual like they do. I can accomplish just as much in an hour or less, as someone who draws it for hours or days even. It's all about personal preference and life-style, as for crowely i know very little about him., So i can't say why he demeaned folk magick

[Lupabitch]

I'm not a Thelemite, or any other flavor of ceremonialist. However, I read the Book of the Law and Magick Without Tears by Crowley, as well as Lon Milo DuQuette's The Magick of Thelema, just so I could have some context to work within. I later got ahold of a pictorial biography of Crowley (can't remember the title), though I never got around to reading Regardie's The Eye in the Triangle, which is supposedly a good bio. So I at least have *some* understanding of Crowley and his material.

However, I am a former Chaos magician, and Chaos magic still informs my practice to an extent. One thing I learned from that experience is that one of the most effective forms of liberating yourself through magic is to shatter a taboo. This sufficiently shakes you out of your tunnel vision to the point where you can consciously observe your current headspace, and adopt a new one. It's similar to some of the exercises in Robert Anton Wilson's Prometheus Rising.

Yes, Crowley was shocking. Yes, he was destructive, and unfortunately others got caught in the crossfire. I don't condone that. However, as a magician he was brilliant, IMO--not perfect, but had some excellent approaches to magic. He was also a product of his time--he blew through not one but two fortunes, and was an English man at the time that the British Empire was still strong. So yes, there was some sexism, racism, and grown up spoiled brat in him.

I don't, however, think that negates the effectiveness of his magical work. I think we have out own fair share of characters in the pagan community, and if we were in a more repressed society we'd probably produce our own fair share of Crowleys.

Not to mention, if they'd had the internet during the Victorian age (Crowley steampunk!) I could see HUGE flame wars going down over Crowley's involvement in the Golden Dawn and OTO.

[Lupabitch]

Also, as far as the high magic vs. low magic thing, I think that's just going to be a part of magical practice forever. People like staking our their territories and defending them, and unfortunately that often comes through as "Mine' s better than yours, nyah!"

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Crowley knew full well the Tradition I teach...

What he could not do , was make the final resolution ,
as far as the " high and low " mgieck aspects of our
Tradition , which are not seperated , in the end...

He did , however , make contact , and open doorways ,
most have never , or will never , be able , or choose to
do...I truly appreciate his rascalian techniques , and his
high self esteem...on the path to godhood , one must not
have a kowtow attitude...

There are always things , no one but the person on the
path , knows about themselves , or their accomplishments...

[BlackLili]

Not to mention, if they'd had the internet during the Victorian age (Crowley steampunk!) I could see HUGE flame wars going down over Crowley's involvement in the Golden Dawn and OTO.

Mmm...Crowley steampunk. Me likey.

Well said, also! I have heard a lot of back and forth arguments on Crowley and his importance if any to magick. If nothing else, I say he was to magick what Wilde was to literature. He may not be everyone's taste, but his contributions to the area cannot be denied.

Crowley existed in a world of dualities and hypocrisy, much as we do now. He practiced magick in an age that publicly rejected and outlawed it, and maintained a playboy lifestyle while doing it. He was bound to disagree with some sensibilities, but it remains undeniable that he and several others at that time (Gardner among them) very much did help to usher in a new age. Before their experiments and writings and arrogance (and I've heard the same accusations leveled against Gardner too,) it was not only illegal to be a practicing witch, it was also highly taboo, which could be said to be more dangerous in Victorian society.

To disregard the societal mores of one's own time takes a very strong personality, and strong personalities tend to inspire either the love and loyalty or the ire and disdain of those looking on. Crowley may have done so fearlessly, though it could never be said that he did anything faultlessly.

[Aidron]

Also, as far as the high magic vs. low magic thing, I think that's just going to be a part of magical practice forever. People like staking our their territories and defending them, and unfortunately that often comes through as "Mine' s better than yours, nyah!"

The real tragedy, however, lies in the fact that thaumaturgical magic can be used to achieve theurgical results, and vise versa. That's the thing about magic people seem to forget; you can do anything with it. Furthermore, how you do it is less important than how well you do it - and frankly, I'm not convinced most even achieve any measure of skill with the latter.

As for Crowley, my issue is not with him as a person, for all people are inherently jackasses if you ask me. My lack of respect is aimed at his works instead, such as his infamous tarot deck.

[Lupabitch]

The real tragedy, however, lies in the fact that thaumaturgical magic can be used to achieve theurgical results, and vise versa. That's the thing about magic people seem to forget; you can do anything with it. Furthermore, how you do it is less important than how well you do it - and frankly, I'm not convinced most even achieve any measure of skill with the latter.

As for Crowley, my issue is not with him as a person, for all people are inherently jackasses if you ask me. My lack of respect is aimed at his works instead, such as his infamous tarot deck.

And all people love you too ;)

Though this gets into the argument of what effective magic is, especially once you start into internal, metamorphic magic where the results are a lot more subjective than "My money ritual brought me a thousand dollars!"

[Aidron]

And all people love you too ;)

They better. I try my hardest to bring them mayhem and discord!


Though this gets into the argument of what effective magic is, especially once you start into internal, metamorphic magic where the results are a lot more subjective than "My money ritual brought me a thousand dollars!"

It can be subjective, but it can also be fairly awe inspiring in terms of the proof it offers. If I, a known chain smoker, work a ritual to keep me from smoking and after the magic materializes I never pick up another cigarette, that's still somewhat subjective, but a lot more concrete.

And coincidentally, a money spell of mine caused over $200 to appear in a parking lot I went to that afternoon. Go money!

[Lupabitch]

Mmm...Crowley steampunk. Me likey.

Well said, also! I have heard a lot of back and forth arguments on Crowley and his importance if any to magick. If nothing else, I say he was to magick what Wilde was to literature. He may not be everyone's taste, but his contributions to the area cannot be denied.

Crowley existed in a world of dualities and hypocrisy, much as we do now. He practiced magick in an age that publicly rejected and outlawed it, and maintained a playboy lifestyle while doing it. He was bound to disagree with some sensibilities, but it remains undeniable that he and several others at that time (Gardner among them) very much did help to usher in a new age. Before their experiments and writings and arrogance (and I've heard the same accusations leveled against Gardner too,) it was not only illegal to be a practicing witch, it was also highly taboo, which could be said to be more dangerous in Victorian society.

To disregard the societal mores of one's own time takes a very strong personality, and strong personalities tend to inspire either the love and loyalty or the ire and disdain of those looking on. Crowley may have done so fearlessly, though it could never be said that he did anything faultlessly.

At least he was never *boring*....

Sometimes it takes a pushy b**tard to break limitations. Not everyone may agree with his social life, but his impact on both occulture and pop culture is undeniable.

[David19]

I think if you're a theurgist who's magic is targeted on "The Great Work" and contacting your higher self, your will focused far beyond the illusion and temporary nature of the current mundane life, it makes perfect sense to think yourself beyond thaumaturgy. To dismiss it as simple arrogance is to miss seeing it a different way. Is calling him arrogant any better then him calling you naive? Besides, it's like asking if polytheists are arrogant because they feel the powerful gods are willing to work with the silly little humans. A different point of view comes from different perspectives, and shouldn't be swept aside as simple egoism.

I say don't bother worrying over who's doing it wrong, better to ask why they felt it was right.

I agree with you, IMO, I think people are just called to different paths in life, some people may want more "higher" style magic, magic that is more internal or is about discovering your higher self or joining with your God or Gods or becoming a God yourself, and some people are more attracted to more practical kinds of magic, the magic to get money, to get laid, to get love, etc. But you can also have magic that combines the 2, that can work towards self-deification or joining with your God(s) as well as being practical.

I'm kind of interested in more folk magic style, the kind that gives results, but I'm also interested in the mysticism, the path of self-deification (read 'Demons of the Flesh' by Zeena and Nikolas Schreck for more info).

[Shawn Blackwolf]

And there , in a nutshell , David , is the essence ,
of the Runa Mgieck Faery Tradition...well said...

[Aidron]

But you can also have magic that combines the 2, that can work towards self-deification or joining with your God(s) as well as being practical.

Right, and this just cycles back around to what I said previously: regardless of ceremonial or folk magic labels, it can all be used to achieve identical purposes. It's really less about what you do, and more about what you do with it.

Ew... did I just sound like I was empowering guys with small penises? I totally did, didn't I? I'm so gross. Somebody put a bar of soap in my mouth!

(Oh, and if you feel empowered by this post, swell. If not, go grab that soap!)

[cesara]

He [thought he] was the one that was coming in to transform the whole world with drugs and sex. What is folk magic compared to that?

Sorry, but you obviously don't know much about Crowley. *shakes head*

[cesara]

I think if you're a theurgist who's magic is targeted on "The Great Work" and contacting your higher self, your will focused far beyond the illusion and temporary nature of the current mundane life, it makes perfect sense to think yourself beyond thaumaturgy. To dismiss it as simple arrogance is to miss seeing it a different way. Is calling him arrogant any better then him calling you naive? Besides, it's like asking if polytheists are arrogant because they feel the powerful gods are willing to work with the silly little humans. A different point of view comes from different perspectives, and shouldn't be swept aside as simple egoism.

I say don't bother worrying over who's doing it wrong, better to ask why they felt it was right.

Hear, hear! :)

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Sorry, but you obviously don't know much about Crowley. *shakes head*

Well said , Cesara...Crowley , at his greatest level , was
opening the Doors , to the Pillars of Daath , which is the
dual lens , of Dark Energy ( solve ) , and Dark Matter
( coagula )...the dissolution of what has been , into the
alchemical reformation , of what shall be...

The New Order Of The Ages...A spiral , on an accelerated ,
higher level...I work with Daath , which is only an Abyss ,
to those who can not cross it...walk on mercurial water , or
across the shifting sands , and break on through to the great
Otherside...

And though I know he disagreed with him strongly , on
certain things , I paraphrase Parsons...

I shall meet ye in the City of Pyramids...blessings...