Autism Spectrum Disorders: Is Asperger's REALLY Autism?

[Sequoia]

This question was brought up in another thread, and I thought I'd pose it to folks in general.

Do you believe that Asperger's Syndrome is truly the same as Autism? Do you believe that there is a 'spectrum', ranging from true severe Autism to socially effecting Asperger's?

Does it detract from true Autism to refer to Asperger's as a form of Autism? Is it truly "high-functioning Autism", or is it a separate condition?

Just decades ago, children were considered "mentally retarded" that now are recognized as having Autism. Is this a true difference, or just another name for the same condition? And how does this relate to Asperger's Syndrome people?

Is Asperger's Syndrome "mild mental retardation"? If you follow that it is a form of Autism, you must agree that that is a consummate description.

Anyway... enough questions from me :) Discuss!

[Sequoia]

I've been told multiple times by multiple people (though none of them doctors) that I probably have Ausperger's syndrome, or at least suffered from it through most of my childhood. I have struggled socially a GREAT deal, and have overcome many things, though I still am socially awkward and easily confused in social situations. Conversely, I am a secretary and receptionist by trade, and seem to have most people 'fooled' when I have medication for my diagnosed medical condition.

Was this true Asperger's syndrome, or a social anxiety disorder?

I know that there is a set of symptoms that clearly represents the idea of "Asperger's Syndrome". There clearly are people who fall into this catagory, and who are apparently helped by therapies designed for Autistics. However, is this help really a diagnosis of "high-functioning Autistic" or is it a condition all on it's own, without the same outcomes and hindrances of true Autism?

True Autistics supposedly have different brain structures than "normal" people. Do Aspies share this same structural difference, or has this even been studied?

Are these structural differences inherent, or are they due to the condition changing the person? (Which came first, the chicken or the egg?)

Additionally, many people are beginning to be diagnosed with these ambiguous disorders (Ausperger's, ADHD, etc) when, in fact, they have no condition at all, or a completely different condition (social anxiety disorder, hyperactive thyroid, bipolar disorder).

As these conditions become "buzzwords" in our society, are they being OVERdiagnosed in the wrong populations, and UNDERdiagnosed for those with the actual conditions?

So many questions!

[spiral]

Those are interesting questions, and I suspect that there's no concrete answer to them. As far as I'm aware, people are generally diagnosed with Asperger's when they display some symptoms which are seen in autism, like difficulties with social interaction and some unusual behaviours, but do not have the delays in language and other cognitive skills which are common in autism. In the past Asperger's has been classified as a separate disorder to autism and there's still debate about whether it should be. The kind of research which suggests that it is a milder form of autism are genetic studies showing a high prevalence of both autism and asperger's in some families, and studies showing that behavioural symptoms of both disorders aren't the same in every person, but vary substantially in terms of severity. This has resulted in the current view of autism as a spectrum disorder, with a continuum of symptoms ranging from milder forms (Asperger's) to more severe forms (autism).

As you can probably tell, I've been taught that Asperger's is a milder form of autism and so I tend to go with that. There really isn't enough research on either autism or Asperger's to give a clear picture of whether their causes are different. As for whether it detracts from autism to call Asperger's a form of it, personally I prefer to think about psychological traits and disorders in terms of continuums rather than discrete units. When you too narrowly define what symptoms make a disorder you end up excluding people who have symptoms and need treatment but just don't quite meet the criteria. Some theories of autism now even prefer to think of autistic symptoms as simply being extreme forms of normal personality traits (e.g. the intense interest of autistic people in the parts of objects and how they work as an extreme form of normal interest in logic and mechanics).

I haven't come across any descriptions of Asperger's as being mild mental retardation, and as far as I know, most people who are diagnosed with it have at least average IQ. A delay in cognitive ability would be more likely to result in the diagnosis of autism.

Only a trained doctor or psychologist can diagnose you with Asperger's. Aspies tend to want to interact with others, but struggle to understand the social norms and rules that govern socially acceptable interaction. They are less likely to show the usual nonverbal behaviours, like eye contact, facial expressions etc. They also tend to show odd behaviours, like unusual interests, mannerisms, strict adherence to routines etc. To be diagnosed, these difficulities and behaviours have to cause significant impairment in social or occupational functioning.

As for differences in brain structure, and whether they cause the behaviour or vice versa, if you could answer that question you'd be rich lol. I believe there's research showing people with autism and asperger's are more likely to be excessively clumsy or show abnormal movements, and some believe that this suggests brain damage. Some parts of the brain (the cerebellum in particular) may be smaller in autistic individuals. There really hasn't been enough research to be conclusive though, and no one really knows the answer to the chicken and the egg question.

I'll stop there because this is getting long (apologies, I find this interesting). Great questions though, hope this helped :)

[wintermagick]

Is Asperger's Syndrome "mild mental retardation"? If you follow that it is a form of Autism, you must agree that that is a consummate description.

Well, my 19 year old brother has AS, and I would not say he is at all retarded, although once people get to know him they assume that he is. His intellectual/IQ level isn't any lower than the "norm", but he definitely struggles socially, always has, always will. Hell, so do I... and I wouldn't be surprised if I have a touch of AS myself.

Anyhow he is able to work, pay bills, follow comittments through, ect. He's actually very responsible... can't say that for many "normal" folk. His main quirk is that he really fixiates on things... for example if his favorite tv show is "Lost", he'll talk about it and run it into the ground until he makes you absolutely hate it from overkill. Other than that he's not much different from the rest of us.

[sari0009]

This question was brought up in another thread, and I thought I'd pose it to folks in general.

Do you believe that Asperger's Syndrome is truly the same as Autism? Do you believe that there is a 'spectrum', ranging from true severe Autism to socially effecting Asperger's?

Does it detract from true Autism to refer to Asperger's as a form of Autism? Is it truly "high-functioning Autism", or is it a separate condition?

Just decades ago, children were considered "mentally retarded" that now are recognized as having Autism. Is this a true difference, or just another name for the same condition? And how does this relate to Asperger's Syndrome people?

Is Asperger's Syndrome "mild mental retardation"? If you follow that it is a form of Autism, you must agree that that is a consummate description.

Anyway... enough questions from me :) Discuss!

I'm on the range and tend not to think verbally, though, if you look at my blog, I am certainly capable of it.

Rather than look at it as "mental retardation," why don't you look at it as a difference in wiring. Seems to me I can easily do things others find difficult and the other way around. Perhaps http://isnt.autistics.org/#what would instill a little humor into the topic for you?

My grandson, who is five now, signs but communicates best through a chatboard, on which he can speak in full sentences. He's been through intense help since he was a toddler and I don't know if he'll ever speak other than to utter a few words, as he's done so far. Time will tell.

Besides two pages on my blog that I wrote on the topic of autism, there are autism related links on my site, lower right column. Have fun exploring if you're really interested, but I'll leave you to read and sift through it on your own.

[Lunacie]

Sequoia, interesting questions, thanks for opening the thread.

As these conditions become "buzzwords" in our society, are they being OVERdiagnosed in the wrong populations, and UNDERdiagnosed for those with the actual conditions?

I would say the answer to both is "yes". And until doctors and science comes up with a better way of diagnosing these issues, both overdiagnosing and underdiagnosing will probably continue. Especially given that doctors seem to be focused on treating the symptoms rather than looking for the cause.


Spiral, thank you for sharing your knowledge and opinions. I know I have a great deal to learn about neurological issues, but in my opinion there are a lot of these issues that are related with a lot of overlap of symptoms. And that makes diagnosis even more difficult (starting with no conclusive testing at this point).


Wintermagic, I'm happy to hear that your brother is handling his life very well. I know a lot of people who struggle with paying bills and balancing checkbooks (most of them have ADD), and I even know a few who can bore me to tears with their focus on just one topic. Are they "normal" or "not"? Beats me.

I believe that these issues have always been present, but in many less technological societies they weren't, or aren't, really a problem. Got some thoughts in my head that I'm having a difficult time expressing well - I will go take some fish oil caps and check back in later.

[Lunacie]

I'm on the range and tend not to think verbally, though, if you look at my blog, I am certainly capable of it.

Rather than look at it as "mental retardation," why don't you look at it as a difference in wiring. Seems to me I can easily do things others find difficult and the other way around. Perhaps http://isnt.autistics.org/#what would instill a little humor into the topic for you?

My grandson, who is five now, signs but communicates best through a chatboard, on which he can speak in full sentences. He's been through intense help since he was a toddler and I don't know if he'll ever speak other than to utter a few words, as he's done so far. Time will tell.

Besides two pages on my blog that I wrote on the topic of autism, there are autism related links on my site, lower right column. Have fun exploring if you're really interested, but I'll leave you to read and sift through it on your own.

What a great site - love the sense of humor.

My granddaughter just turned 6. We wondered if she would ever talk, but at the age of 4 her communication got turned on. It makes me crazy that she can talk as maturely as her big sister (who is almost 10)
one moment, and the next moment she is using baby talk. That kind of thing had the therapist thinking she might be BiPolar at first. She does have what seem to be manic stages - I don't know if that's common for Autists or if she may have overlapping issues.

It's amazing that your grandson can communicate through a keyboard at the age of 5. We are so proud of my granddaughter for beginning to read this year in kindergarten, but there is no way she can spell out words herself at this point.

[sari0009]

What a great site - love the sense of humor.

My granddaughter just turned 6. We wondered if she would ever talk, but at the age of 4 her communication got turned on. It makes me crazy that she can talk as maturely as her big sister (who is almost 10)
one moment, and the next moment she is using baby talk. That kind of thing had the therapist thinking she might be BiPolar at first. She does have what seem to be manic stages - I don't know if that's common for Autists or if she may have overlapping issues.

It's amazing that your grandson can communicate through a keyboard at the age of 5. We are so proud of my granddaughter for beginning to read this year in kindergarten, but there is no way she can spell out words herself at this point.

The chatboard my grandson uses displays icons for word and speaks for him with the press of each button. Cool.

That's all they have though. Not much funding for autism needs in the state of Wisconsin (the governor cut a lot of autism funding, an economic decision, once he saw that prevalence was rising).

He got a lot more when he lived in Ohio and attended the Rich School for Autism, which I credit for helping him make more eye contact and getting him used to learning by repeating the same daily routine, something I later carried on when they moved back home to Wisconsin.

Wisconsin doesn't have anything like the Rich Center for Autism, so I have been (while his mother worked) working with him 4 to six hours a day (less now that they moved into their own apartment) signing and using alphabet cards, electronics, and toys.

From what I can see so far, a quality chatboard can cost anywhere from $1,900 to 8 thousand dollars, though we plan to design a cheaper one, using a tough book (a kind of laptop). He is, after all, profoundly hyperactive and, at this age, quite destructive. (As a girl, I was hyperactive too, but wasn't so hard on my toys and surroundings.)

As for overlapping conditions, see this map that illustrates the topic, as it's presently understood, about 1/3 of the way down here (http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/104/28/11694). This exact same map appears in a popular science magazine this month, though I forget which. You'll see it mentioned on the cover, lower left corner, if you go look for it.

[sari0009]

This question was brought up in another thread, and I thought I'd pose it to folks in general.

Do you believe that Asperger's Syndrome is truly the same as Autism? Do you believe that there is a 'spectrum', ranging from true severe Autism to socially effecting Asperger's?

Does it detract from true Autism to refer to Asperger's as a form of Autism? Is it truly "high-functioning Autism", or is it a separate condition?

Just decades ago, children were considered "mentally retarded" that now are recognized as having Autism. Is this a true difference, or just another name for the same condition? And how does this relate to Asperger's Syndrome people?

Is Asperger's Syndrome "mild mental retardation"? If you follow that it is a form of Autism, you must agree that that is a consummate description.

Anyway... enough questions from me :) Discuss!

As for any definitive answer to your question regarding whether Aspergers is part of autism, the debate rages and there does not appear to be any consensus.

Personally, I picture human intelligence in a 3D model rather than linear ranges, with autism and "neurotypical" appearing rather meshed rather than sharply delineated, and the same goes for how Aspergers fits in.

[SphinYote]

I can offer little but my own experience.

It has been suggested twice by pople that I might have asperger's syndrome, but I've never sought a formal diagnosis.

I do have social anxieties, can't understand what's going on a lot of times. In my case I tend to have a low auditory comprehension, I cannot look people in the face or make eye contact without being reducd to a stuttering fool.

I have problems with tone of voice, usually sound pissed off even when I'm happy about something. Doesn't go over too well when you genuinely thank someone for something and all they hear is the pissy whiney tone, or a monotone, and think you're being sarcastic or faking....:(

When I'm interested in a subject I tend to obsess over it. And, unfortunately the same goes for people, though I hide that well enough. I tend to think about that person all the time, worry about them, practically have a crush on them, and do my damned best to hide it because in most cases it would probably annoy them at best and freak them out at worst....so I tend to avoid them in real life, whatever happens to be going on in my mind.

As for the autism link. Well. I have found that all of the above traits become much worse depending on what I eat--milk is bad (though I have a little in my coffee every day). I don't know about celiac, been experimenting with tht lately, sometimes I think yes, sometimes, no. Nutrition: I've found that I need omega supplements and the occasional multivitamin in order to function properly.

Sensory sensitivities: big time. Smells--don't get me started on perfume. Hurt. Pain. Rage. Not so much any more, but those used to cause the greatest hell that one can imagine....

Sounds: Not as bad as they were when I was little. Saxaphones used to cause a sensation akin to someone sticking needles through my ears. Now they're just mildly abrasive. Tape hiss: Rage response. Ocean waves (as recorded on cassette tapes): Also rage response. Its not that it hurt, per se, but it certainly triggered the most intense feeling of emotional hurt and anger, connected with a kind of electrical sensation.

Touch: In grade school I could not tell the difference between a tap on the shoulder and someone hitting me. Both caused such a jolt and flash of light that I tended to retaliate as if struck regardless of what happened. Thankfully, this problem is completely gone.

Sight: Usually fine. However when I have a migraine I have a some of the visual sensitivities reported with autism: seeing the flicker of the florescent lights, computer screens. Can't always process what I'm seeing.

Electric buzzing with thoughts racing. I had a horrible time with this, some days it would be so bad that all I could do was sit in the restroom and cry (head banging DOES in fact alleviate that godawful buzzing, though I never did it much because for me it causes a hell of a migraine if I try it). Sometimes lightly but firmly patting the back of my neck at the base of the skull would generate enough of a counter to the buzzing that it would help. The problem is, once you stop, it starts up again. I knew I had my bad days, but I never knew until last summer that the racing thoughts and electrical buzz were constant, until they stopped, a miracle (that was when I started taking Omegas).

I have found that researching autism has helped in identifying my own problem points and what people are expecting from me, so I cn at least improve my act of normalcy. Social cues are not second nature or common sense to me. Can't understand hints a lot of times, if people want somethng done they have to ask me directly. If they drop subtle hints that something needs to be done, I'm not likely to "get it." If I offer to do something, and I don't get a yes, I tend to assume that the people don't need it done, but in some cases I've found that I misunderstood when after the fact I'm asked why something didn't get done that I had asked if it needed to be done.

It was an epiphany to me in high school when I realized that one of my teachers was looking at me funny because I didn't react with any emotion to what he was telling me (basically there had been a mistake in calculating scores on a regional test, and my score was much higher than the amount they had given me...). It wasn't until high school that I finally discovered that people expect you to have an emotional reaction to things, even if its just a smile or expression of dismay.

I don't know if I fit on the spectrum or not. In some ways certainly, and I've found helpful information when researching that. I know my symptoms are at least in part biological, metabolic. I'm slowly learning about what helps and slowly discovering myself under all these layers.

Its an interesting question. I'd say, whatever label (if any) provides the best help, if help is indeed needed. But we don't always get to choose our labels, and the ones we get stuck with can often cause more problems than good.

Yote

[mammas_girl]

So my two cents reagarding this. Is that i have worked with people with developmental dissablities and I have a very dear friend who is diagnosed with Auspergers (spelling)

Yes i belive that it is a full spectrum disablitie. Because with what I have seen of my friend that it is no diffrent it is just social instead of fully dibilitating (spelling)

So my feelings are yes it is a form it is just less severe as other forms.

So i am curious to hear other peoples thoughts and feelings tho

[PrincessKLS]

I just find it weird that Aspbergers and other forms of disabilities such as mental retardation is thought to have a social component to it.

I mean a lot of disabled people tend to turn anti social and introverted due to people's reactions to them and what if they are diagnosed with one of those "social disabilities" because of it?

In fact there's a lot of things that can cause someone before or after age 18 to turn anti-social; being raped, or molested; or any other type of famial abuse. Ostrasized at school for the way they look, how much money they have or don't have, sexual indenity or sexual orientation confusion, or even converting to paganism or another religion your community doesn't agree with.

Why single some people out for that?

[Lunacie]

I just find it weird that Aspbergers and other forms of disabilities such as mental retardation is thought to have a social component to it.

I mean a lot of disabled people tend to turn anti social and introverted due to people's reactions to them and what if they are diagnosed with one of those "social disabilities" because of it?

In fact there's a lot of things that can cause someone before or after age 18 to turn anti-social; being raped, or molested; or any other type of famial abuse. Ostrasized at school for the way they look, how much money they have or don't have, sexual indenity or sexual orientation confusion, or even converting to paganism or another religion your community doesn't agree with.

Why single some people out for that?


Asperger's and Autism and other spectrum disorders are generally diagnosed before the age a kid normally starts school, which is when they would be expected to really start getting social and simply can't manage being social. There has been research done that shows these kids have definate differences in the way their brains are shaped and the chemicals that are released in the brain in response to certain stimuli.

What happens with a person who withdraws because of trauma is a whole different ball of wax.

Until recently it was believed that kids with Asperger's and ADD sometimes "outgrew" their issues. What really happens is that some of them figure out how to cope and manage their disorder, generally those on the high functioning end of the disorder. Reading the posts over at www.addforums.com (http://www.addforums.com) shows me that a lot of them are still struggling with everyday things like remembering where they put the car keys or forgetting to buy gas for the car, forgetting to take the clothes out of the wash machine and having to wash them again (and again) to get the musty smell out, forgetting what they went to the store to buy (and forgetting to take the list they wrote as well).

I doubt if it's any different with Asperger's and Autism, they might also find some ways of coping but they will always struggle more with things like remembering to pay the bills on time than "normal" people do.


edited because I always forget the 's' on addforums

[ConjureWife]

Interesting thread!

It's my hope that Asperger's will eventually be separated from the Autism spectrum and become it's own spectrum. The reason being that people with Asperger's seem to have a spectrum all their own. Perhaps it will be under the umbrella of Autism, but people will classic Autism are in such a totally different situation, from what I have observed.

My psych doctor told me recently that she thinks I'm somewhere on 'the spectrum of Asperger's Syndrome'... which is because I'm certainly not as severe as some but I so completely fit the bill for the criteria. I had for years, before knowing why I was the way I was, observed those around me, made adjustments in order to be treated less like 'that weird girl' and have basically learned to live in my world and the world around me. By design. I did this both because of the dissociative disorder and because underneath even that I was just tired of feeling like a stranger in a strange land ALL the time, no matter where I was.

But I also have a very different past, have recovered from a life-long trauma-based dissociative disorder and have severe clinical depression which not only often comes with Asperger's, but my doctors believe I have due to the steroid meds I was on most of my childhood and teen years. (Sure, lots of people who were on them don't have depression, but more and more that link is being found in those who have tried literally everything known to medicine and mystics with no winning and it's undeniable after twenty years of dealing with it.)

Because I had to work for years to make myself whole again, there is no way someone could have diagnosed me with Asperger's until I made it where I am now... but once I was diagnosed, every missing piece fell into place.

I would not say it has anything to do with social anxiety or even shyness. Because I know the difference between when I'm feeling anxious or shy and when I'm just plain not interested in the people around me. But when I got diagnosed, read more about Asperger's and understood... the little anxiety I used to get disappeared because I had a context in which to put it now. The anxiety and shyness I sometimes felt came from that feeling of, "Oh gods I have to talk to people again? Oh gods, I am expected to make conversation to keep my job..." And knowing the kind of effort I was going to have to put forth... and knowing I would feel like a phony.

It can take a huge load off someone's shoulders when they realize they can stop trying to fit in and stop trying to understand why people can't understand them... and they can just be themselves.

I hope I didn't go too far off there... but yes, I agree that it would be nice to see Asperger's as it's own spectrum.

Viva la neurodiversity!