Should Spanking Be Illegal

[Pagan Warrior]

Video: http://video.msn.com/video.aspx?mkt=en-US&brand=&vid=4b077e0e-098c-46b1-9298-6d4272cb1aa8

Article: http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071203/GJNEWS_01/712030017

DOVER — A bill introduced to the Massachusetts Legislature this session has sparked the debate — should spanking children be banned?

Well ?? What do you guys think? I'm not talking about beating a child until they can't sit down ... what about a swat, spanking, etc. when the child ... lets say ... tries to run out into a busy street?

[Amethyst Rose]

They tried to make spanking illegal in Canada a couple of years ago, to no avail. No, I do not think that spanking should be illegal. For some children in some cases it is necessary. IMO a lot more kids should get spanked than actually do.

[Athena-Nadine]

No, it should NOT be illegal. This goes beyond protecting children and into the realm of ridiculousness.

If my son tries to reach his hand into our fireplace, lit or not, I will smack his hand if he doesn't listen to me when I tell him not to or goes back to it if I move him away from it. Should I be arrested for smacking my son's hand because I am trying to keep him from real injury?

[Ariste]

You know, people wonder why the world doesn't seem as safe a place anymore. Leaving your door or car unlocked is unheard of. Honestly in my personal opinion, it's because of all the political correct bullshit. You can't spank your kids, cause it's abuse. You can't yell at them, you might hurt their feelings. Schools are switching to pass/fail grading systems. The only place competitiveness is allowed is on the sports field, and then it's more between the parents than it is between the kids.

We're losing the ability to discipline our kids. Well, until they do something DRASTICALLY wrong and then they're put in juvenille detention, where they pretty much learn to be better criminals and not get caught.

The facts of life are, you're not always going to be the best, actions have consequences, and life isn't fair. There's such a thing as letting kids be kids, but there's also such a thing as going to far to shield them from life's lessons.

[Athena-Nadine]

.We're losing the ability to discipline our kids. Well, until they do something DRASTICALLY wrong and then they're put in juvenille detention, where they pretty much learn to be better criminals and not get caught.
*...nods...* And then the parents are blamed for not doing enough. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Aidron]

Hell no. If anything, kids should be beaten more these days!

Besides, child protection laws are already completely asinine, why aim to make it worse? If a child screams something is wrong, whether it is or is not, the whole world comes to a crashing halt and extraordinary measures are taken. Fine, children are our future, we get it, but let's maintain some degree of reason and sense while heading toward that future.

[aranarose]

I don't spank my son, but that's because he's never needed to be spanked. My cousin's sons on the other hand should be beat on a regular basis, little hellions that they are...

Some children respond to spanking, others don't. I think that the choice should be left up to the parents, not dictated by some law that has no real idea what is going on in the homes of the parents who lovingly spank their children.

[Green Mantle]

No spanking should not be illegal. I'd love to see a study on whether children who recieve spankings are more or less likely to grow up to be criminals! I'd put my money on less likely. I'm not advocating abuse - bottoms are for swatting, not faces or anything else.

[Tanya]

no.
look all around us in the animal world.. when babies get out of hand and don't listen to more gentle correction, they get a light cuff or nip.... for the same reason we lightly spank.. "Pay attention you... i'm the boss, and I'm teachingyou something important..."

my daughter's been spanked a handful of times... generally for willful disobedience...it is the last punishement down a line of consequences we follow... sometimes... it pops a kid out of an emotional loop and says truely "That's enough, i'm serious."

[WolfPup522]

no.
look all around us in the animal world.. when babies get out of hand and don't listen to more gentle correction, they get a light cuff or nip.... for the same reason we lightly spank.. "Pay attention you... i'm the boss, and I'm teachingyou something important..."

my daughter's been spanked a handful of times... generally for willful disobedience...it is the last punishement down a line of consequences we follow... sometimes... it pops a kid out of an emotional loop and says truely "That's enough, i'm serious."

I couldn't have said it better myself. I don't understand these parents who have "no discipline" rules. Seriously, I'm not kidding. My friend is a teacher in a day care center and she has a toddler in her class whose parents let him do whatever he wants at home - LITERALLY. He has no bed time, no nothing - he is 16 months old. People have got to stop going to extremes!! Kids need boundaries and when they cross those boundaries (and they will) they need to be disciplined.

[wolf]

A swat or two with an open hand against a fleshy part of the body is worth a thousand words of ill-conceived attempt to negotiate with a small child.

[Evinmeer]

I say it should only be illegal when it becomes illegal to get pregnant and pop the kid out au naturel. If the gov't wants so badly to raise our kids, why not just let them do the whole damn thing instead of playing small bits with laws and stuff? Just grow 'em in a test tube so they can start life in a nice, safe, gov't controlled environment from the beginning.... lease 'em out to people on the holidays for "family time".

Spanking is not abuse: it is a teaching tool, the same as time-outs and talking-to's. The difference between spanking and abuse is whether or not it's done in anger.... and if you've waited long enough to get angry, you've failed to establish your authority anyways - anything you do in anger is simply bullying. "No" must mean "no" every single time; not sometimes, not most of the time, and certainly not just when you have the energy to enforce it. As the old saying goes, "Give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile." No child alive has ever proved that adage wrong.

If the gov't wants to pass laws about families, it ought to be something more productive like a parenting class.

[Marcasite]

I think whether to spank or not should be left up to the individual parent. Some people believe in spanking, others don't. I think it comes down the same way as breastfeeding, cosleeping, circumcision etc. Each parent should do what's right for their family as long as it doesn't harm the child.
However I do think parents shouldn't be allowed to spank the kid with a belt or a wooden spoon or something because that can really hurt or bruise.

[Tanya]

I absolutely agree with you Marcasite.. hitting with things is unacceptable, and abusive.. and hitting in anger is also... unacceptable... the point is not to hurt.. its to focus attention....

usually spankings for me come down to
"Get yourself back in the naughty chair or their is going to be a spanking."

kid "No " or "I don't want to"

spanking.

no discussion... no negotiation

that's gone down that way twice in my house... now it ends with a kid scampering back to her naughty chair and saying quickly "Sorry Momma, I forgot I was still on punishment"

I agree totally with Evinmeer.... we are not put on this earth to be their friends... we are put here to teach them to be humans, and that means they need to kow unquestionalbly where the boundries lie.... we need to seriously warn them what happens if they step over the boundries and not hesitate to follow through with appropriate consequences... what ever we choose them to be.

[Philosophia]

No, I don't think spanking should be illegal.

However, there is a fine line between spanking and abuse. If the spanking leaves a severe mark (i.e. bruises, scars, etc.) then it is abuse and should be stopped. It shouldn't be placed on sensitive areas, like the head, nor done out of any emotional turmoil. I believe spanking should be one of the last resorts of punishment used against children and they should know about it.

[RoseRhythm]

No way!
I got spanked quite a bit as a kid - but I know I deserved it! I was a horrible kid, but my parents did what they had to, and I'm glad for it. I think mostly it was meant to scare the hell out of me. They never used objects or anything, it was meant to hurt (as in sting) but not be something you still felt the next day. Some kids need to get spanked. That's all there is to it.

This bill will go nowhere, by the way.

[Ravenna Angellin]

Spanking is the most drastic form of punishment in our house. Though... I do recall once when Aiden was about 3, he was getting a spanking, and he sat there laughing at me!! "Spankings don't hurt, spankings make me laugh! HA HA HA HA!" is what he said. My reply: "Don't make me get the wooden spoon little man."

He quips back: "Wooden spoons are not for my butt. They are for cooking and stirring."

Smart aleck.

Back on topic though...

I think that spanking is definitely best left in the hands of the parent. So long as they are not beating the living daylights out of the child whilst they're at it, I think that spanking can be used as an effective deterrent to repeated bad behavior. Such as running in the street, or trying to crawl in the fireplace after being told no or whatever. I was spanked as a child. Each time because I deserved it, and boy did I deserve them, lol! I grew up well adjusted for the most part and I'm not deeply scarred because my parents spanked me. Scarred from other aspects of my childhood, but not from being spanked.

~ Ravenna

[Sequoia]

No child was ever "scarred" by a reasonably gentle swat on the butt.

I grew up entirely without corporal punishment, and may I say that I am astoundingly maladjusted. :lol:

That aside... if it leaves a mark, other than a little redness, you're hitting too hard. There is a fine line between discipline and abuse, but it is a BOLD line, and you must NEVER cross it.

[Marcasite]

I was spanked as a child and I think it never did me any good. I was a sensitive child and yelling brought me to tears. Plus, my Dad only spanked when he was angry so he'd run after me with his face all red, screaming 'you won't sit down for a week' weilding the wooden spoon. It was pretty scary. I don't remember what I was being punished for, but I remember the spankings.

[Sequoia]

I was spanked as a child and I think it never did me any good. I was a sensitive child and yelling brought me to tears. Plus, my Dad only spanked when he was angry so he'd run after me with his face all red, screaming 'you won't sit down for a week' weilding the wooden spoon. It was pretty scary. I don't remember what I was being punished for, but I remember the spankings.

That wasn't just spanking. There's a BIG difference. If he was attacking you out of anger, it was abuse.

[Artiste-LiLi]

Nope...should not be illegal. A spanking....a TRUE spanking..NOT a beating....never hurt anyone. When I was a child, spanking was the norm....my siblings, my cousins, my friends, my husband and all his family and friends and I are none the worse for wear from having been spanked when we needed a swat on the bottom. I've seen children who do not need spanking....I've seen children who NEED a spanking very badly (my cousin's child is one of these...and I just might be the one to give it to him!). But to make it illegal....pure silliness! If people would use their common sense a bit more they would know when to spank and when not to and to what degree....a swat on the butt or two is a spanking and is fine in my book.

[Eternal Night]

I quite enjoy a good spanking


seriously though......i look at is as assualt on another human
You wouldn't go and smack one of your mates or even a stranger if they aren't doin as you ask so why do it to the most precious thing in your life?

And also if you child hits you....what makes that wrong if you do it to them they can surely be able to do it back

[WolfPup522]

As a parent, I have to say that the legality issue is really more than should we spank our kids. It boils down to this: should the government be able to tell us how to discipline our children? Absolutely not. And I'm not talking about abuse here - that is a completely different issue. Are they going to tell me that I can't buy her Fruit Loops next? I can fight for my country, I am trusted to vote for who I believe can run our country, and I can even carry a gun if I choose to, but I can't pop my kid's hand when she continuously reaches for a dirty lifesaver on the grocery store floor? Uh, no.

[PrincessKLS]

I'm not for spanking and I don't know what "nonsense" says that you shouldn't be mad or angry when giving a spanking to a child :( I'm sorry but to even want to spank a child you have to be pretty angry or mad with them and really if you spank a child while you are happy and smiling something is wrong with you.

[PrincessKLS]

Nope...should not be illegal. A spanking....a TRUE spanking..NOT a beating....never hurt anyone. When I was a child, spanking was the norm....my siblings, my cousins, my friends, my husband and all his family and friends and I are none the worse for wear from having been spanked when we needed a swat on the bottom. I've seen children who do not need spanking....I've seen children who NEED a spanking very badly (my cousin's child is one of these...and I just might be the one to give it to him!). But to make it illegal....pure silliness! If people would use their common sense a bit more they would know when to spank and when not to and to what degree....a swat on the butt or two is a spanking and is fine in my book.


That's one of the problems, people don't know really what's appropriate and what's not. And what age is it appropriate to begin to spank and when to stop. There's people who will spank their children until they are adults, surely there has to be a different rules on how to raise an infant, toddler, young child, teen, and even young adult.

[Tanya]

I agree. that's abuse.

My father sometimes hit me when he was angry and THAt is NOT the same as spanking.. spanking should be a cool calm... "You did this.. you knew what the consequences would be... prepare for your spank."

(my daughter a while back said "That didn't hurt" LOL

I told her.. "Oh, i'm sorry, shall I try again a little harder, or are you going to learn your lesson without another swat?"

she opped for plan B.)

[PrincessKLS]

:lol: So between what ages were you spanked?

[Garnet Heart]

My mom only spanked me when she was angry and she was angry all the time for most of my early childhood. That's why I voted that it should be illegal...because if it were, I probably wouldn't have so many issues with trust, anxiety and self-worth. I felt betrayed by the person who was supposed to be the one I trusted most. There's more than one way to hurt a child.

I suppose if I had thought more about it, I might have easily voted the other way. If people really want to hit their kids, that's their prerogative. I don't know if it's possible to raise a child well without spanking. I don't have much patience for children anyway.

[Ariste]

I have to disagree that using objects is abuse. Belts and switches are definitely bad, but a good paddle or a large spoon that properly distributes the force are not. If I smack my daughters butt with just my hand she laughs at me. I have never hit her hard enough to break a paddle or spoon, and I never give her more than 2 swats at a time. (My husband always gives her 3 though for some reason) We don't spank often, but sometimes it's the only way to get acrossed that we mean business.

My mom used to hit me with whatever was convenient. She broke paddles, spoons,
and even split a belt down the middle. I was so small the belt used to wrap around and leave bruises on my stomach. I know abuse can be carried on so I am careful never to be really angry when I spank Tana, and mostly I try to avoid it.

I'd like to get your take on another disciplining method I've found effective. We went through a phase a couple years ago where every other word out of Tana's mouth was a lie. I started putting just a tiny pinch of cayenne on her tongue when I caught her in a lie. After she told the truth I'd give her some milk to wash it down or a piece of bread to soak it up. My mom (ironically) claims this is abusive, but I think it's a ton better than washing her mouth out with soap (which always made me horribly ill) It's been probably almost 2 years since i've used the cayenne. Any time I suspect she's lying all I have to say is: "Do I need to get the pepper?" Those occaisions are few and far between.

[Sequoia]

My mom only spanked me when she was angry and she was angry all the time for most of my early childhood. That's why I voted that it should be illegal...because if it were, I probably wouldn't have so many issues with trust, anxiety and self-worth. I felt betrayed by the person who was supposed to be the one I trusted most. There's more than one way to hurt a child.

Might I suggest that it wasn't the spanking which caused problems, but your mother herself?

I have some serious issues due to my mother, and she never laid a hand on me. Emotional abuse is just as powerful.

If spanking had been illegal, your mother would have found other ways to take out her inadequacies on you. It has little to do with spanking and everything to do with her psychological issues.

[Eldawyn]

Here's the thing... What would be accomplished by making it illegal to spank? What would be the consequences?

If it was deemed "child abuse" then perfectly well-meaning parents could ultimately have their children taken away. I don't see how this serves anyone well. Especially considering how overwhelmed social services is already.

And who would enforce this? Would we leave it up to some lady who saw only a spanking and not that the kid was being punished for running around in a parking lot?

It just doesn't make much common sense.

[RoseKitten]

I'd also like to point out that making it illegal wouldn't stop what the real problem is. If this law is to protect kids from abuse, fyi, parents that abuse will do it weather or not it's legal. All a law like this will do is get good, well meaning parents in trouble, and abuse will still continue.

[Marcasite]

I'd also like to point out that making it illegal wouldn't stop what the real problem is. If this law is to protect kids from abuse, fyi, parents that abuse will do it weather or not it's legal. All a law like this will do is get good, well meaning parents in trouble, and abuse will still continue.

I agree entirely. The issue really isn't whether you personally agree with spanking or not (and many people don't) but whether you think other parents should get in trouble for it. I really don't see a reason that they should.

[PrincessKLS]

I have to disagree that using objects is abuse. Belts and switches are definitely bad, but a good paddle or a large spoon that properly distributes the force are not. If I smack my daughters butt with just my hand she laughs at me. I have never hit her hard enough to break a paddle or spoon, and I never give her more than 2 swats at a time. (My husband always gives her 3 though for some reason) We don't spank often, but sometimes it's the only way to get acrossed that we mean business.

My mom used to hit me with whatever was convenient. She broke paddles, spoons,
and even split a belt down the middle. I was so small the belt used to wrap around and leave bruises on my stomach. I know abuse can be carried on so I am careful never to be really angry when I spank Tana, and mostly I try to avoid it.

I'd like to get your take on another disciplining method I've found effective. We went through a phase a couple years ago where every other word out of Tana's mouth was a lie. I started putting just a tiny pinch of cayenne on her tongue when I caught her in a lie. After she told the truth I'd give her some milk to wash it down or a piece of bread to soak it up. My mom (ironically) claims this is abusive, but I think it's a ton better than washing her mouth out with soap (which always made me horribly ill) It's been probably almost 2 years since i've used the cayenne. Any time I suspect she's lying all I have to say is: "Do I need to get the pepper?" Those occaisions are few and far between.


Sorry to say but I've heard from a social worker that putting pepper or other spices on the tongue is considered abuse. Please don't do it again.

[WolfPup522]

I'd also like to point out that making it illegal wouldn't stop what the real problem is. If this law is to protect kids from abuse, fyi, parents that abuse will do it weather or not it's legal. All a law like this will do is get good, well meaning parents in trouble, and abuse will still continue.

I agree as well. If spanking were illegal, I could be in jail right now instead of having a fabulous, loving relationship with my 14-year old. I do not spank her anymore and haven't in a long time. Let's face it, the kid is stronger than me now anyway! :lol: She concedes to my decisions now out of respect, not because I'm bigger and can hit her.

There is a line between spanking and abuse. If someone is traumatized, continuing into adulthood by spankings they received as a child, it was more than likely abuse.

And as far as being angry when you spank. Of course you are angry - at some level at least. The important thing is that you are spanking as a consequence to their actions and not BECAUSE you are angry.

I even go so far as to say that my daughter has never been punished by me. I realize that is semantics, but I have always laid out the rules and explained what would happen if she disobeyed them. That way rather than seeing it as 'mean mommy punishing me when I don't deserve it', she saw it as 'oh, crap. I lied and that means this is going to happen'. I'd like to think that approach has had a big part in making her the good kid she is. That's what my dad did with me and it worked with me, too. This in no way means that it will work with every kid, of course, but it's an option. And by the way, that cayenne pepper thing falls into my definition of consequences (I wish I had thought of it! lol) and I don't find it abusive at all. If she doesn't lie, she won't get pepper on her tongue. Easy enough!

[WolfPup522]

Sorry to say but I've heard from a social worker that putting pepper or other spices on the tongue is considered abuse. Please don't do it again.

Interesting and makes me curious enough to wonder why. I'll have to do some research and determine if I should change my position on the subject.

[Pagan Warrior]

I'm not for spanking and I don't know what "nonsense" says that you shouldn't be mad or angry when giving a spanking to a child :( I'm sorry but to even want to spank a child you have to be pretty angry or mad with them and really if you spank a child while you are happy and smiling something is wrong with you.

Ideally (according to those psychologists who actually support spanking) it should never hurt your hand. To minimize the probability of hitting too hard you should never be angry when you spank. Granted, it happens, when you get emotional and react ... child reaches for a hot stove and you swat the hand. Might be a little too hard but not nearly as bad as a 3rd degree burn.

Nobody is ever happy and smiling when they are disciplining their child(ren). The problem is not the mood, it's parents who take it too far. The one thing people need to understand about a spanking is that it not only stops the behavior you're trying to stop ... it stops ALL behavior at that point. It should be a last resort, but I don't believe it should ever be illegal.

I'd also like to point out that making it illegal wouldn't stop what the real problem is. If this law is to protect kids from abuse, fyi, parents that abuse will do it weather or not it's legal. All a law like this will do is get good, well meaning parents in trouble, and abuse will still continue.

Excellent point RoseKitten, punching a child in the face is illegal but people still do it. Throwing an infant in a garbage can to die is illegal, but people still do it. This law is not going to help anyone because the people who take this to an extreme will continue despite what lawmakers do.

When I was a kid my mother had a wicked backhand. Looking back I can say I deserved it most (if not all) of the times it happened. Someone touched on nature in this thread and I wholeheartedly agree; I've been around horses all my life and when a foal gets too aggressive with the mother while getting milk ... well ... momma will kick.

[PrincessKLS]

Well the ones who abuse their children the worse, not only should have their kids taken away but they should go to jail for a long time (if not enforce the death penalty on some, because some are really bad).

[Ravenna Angellin]

I'd like to get your take on another disciplining method I've found effective. We went through a phase a couple years ago where every other word out of Tana's mouth was a lie. I started putting just a tiny pinch of cayenne on her tongue when I caught her in a lie. After she told the truth I'd give her some milk to wash it down or a piece of bread to soak it up. My mom (ironically) claims this is abusive, but I think it's a ton better than washing her mouth out with soap (which always made me horribly ill) It's been probably almost 2 years since i've used the cayenne. Any time I suspect she's lying all I have to say is: "Do I need to get the pepper?" Those occaisions are few and far between.

Oooo!! I think I might try that with Aiden! He's gotten to the point where he just lets lie after lie after lie come from his mouth. We can't get him to stop! And I won't use soap because I find it comical now... I used to watch "A Christmas Story" every year and the scene where the boy imagines going blind from having his mouth washed out with soap cracks me up. I can't bring myself to do it to my boys. But cayenne... that just might work!

Thanks!

~ Ravenna

[Ariste]

Sorry to say but I've heard from a social worker that putting pepper or other spices on the tongue is considered abuse. Please don't do it again.

I could care less what a social worker thinks. I was wondering what other responsible parents think.

[Lunacie]

I quite enjoy a good spanking


seriously though......i look at is as assualt on another human
You wouldn't go and smack one of your mates or even a stranger if they aren't doin as you ask so why do it to the most precious thing in your life?

And also if you child hits you....what makes that wrong if you do it to them they can surely be able to do it back

Yes, I would smack one of my friends if s/he wouldn't stop doing something to me after being warned by me to stop. Same thing with a stranger.

However our friends can usually be reasoned with and will stop doing something if warned that we're likely to smack them. Small children don't really have the ability to reason that way yet, and to make the connection between defying a parent and getting a consequence.

When a child hits you they are either doing it out of anger, or they don't really understand the connection between hitting someone and hurting them. Properly done, spankings should not be done out of anger either, and the connection between action and consequence should be made clear before the consequence is warranted. That's all part of teaching them about that connection.

[WolfPup522]

Yes, I would smack one of my friends if s/he wouldn't stop doing something to me after being warned by me to stop. Same thing with a stranger.

I have to agree with you here, too. I actually have a friend that I've elbowed in the gut because he thought it would be funny to walk up behind me and grab my ass. I didn't think it was very funny. Although the look on his face was! lol

[Garnet Heart]

Doesn't anyone think that the primary lesson learned by kids when you spank them is that they should hit people smaller than them to get what they want? I took out most of what my mom did to me on my little brother.

[WolfPup522]

Doesn't anyone think that the primary lesson learned by kids when you spank them is that they should hit people smaller than them to get what they want? I took out most of what my mom did to me on my little brother.

Again, there is a difference between spanking/swatting and abuse. If you are being abused, of course that is a valid concern. Abused children often become abusers themselves (or so I'm told - I'm not a professional). You even said earlier that your mom hit you when she was angry. That is BAD.

While I may have been frustrated, I have NEVER spanked my child because I was angry - it was always to get her attention or as a consequence that she was fully aware of BEFORE she did whatever she did to get in trouble. If I got angry, I would walk away until I calmed down - there is a HUGE difference between that and what you described with your mom.

I completely understand why you think that hitting is bad, but we're not talking about beating up our kids, here. When you have a toddler that sets his/her sights on a nasty, dirty lifesaver on the floor of some store, they often tune EVERYTHING else out, including you saying "No, no. That's icky." Sometimes a swat on the leg or hand is all that will break that trance. I'd prefer that over some of these parents that snatch their kids by the arm so hard it looks like they are going to pull it out of its socket!

I like the idea of the laws that say open-handed and not leaving marks is ok. The idea keeps kids safe (even though abusers will abuse no matter what the law says), however to take that a step further and make a law that says I can't spank my kid is an invasion. The government did not have my child, I did. The government is not raising my child, I am. The government needs to spend more time and money on EDUCATION and less on making laws that can land responsible, loving parents in jail.

[SaviaFeather]

I havent read anyones responses, but the only way I think that it should'nt be illegal is I don't agree that the goverment has the right to pass a law telling what we can do with our children or not. If such a law passes, what stops them from passing other laws telling us what we can do/not do. Otherwise I dont advocate spanking as way to discipline children.

[LadyWinter]

Besides, child protection laws are already completely asinine, why aim to make it worse? If a child screams something is wrong, whether it is or is not, the whole world comes to a crashing halt and extraordinary measures are taken.

I wish this were true.

Winter

[CeriseAmaranth]

Absolutely flippin' not. People need to learn to mind their own business and pay attention to their horrible children instead of worrying about everyone else's. A whack on the rear when your kid screws up is NOT abusive. Hitting is different and that's crossing the line, to be sure, but a thwack on the bottom does not equal horrible parenting and an abusive situation, period. The lack of spanking and real discipline are some of the reasons why kids are AWFUL these days.

[Artiste-LiLi]

"Again, there is a difference between spanking/swatting and abuse." <snipped for brevity>


Yes there is. Early in my childhood I was spanked....late in my childhood and into my late teens I was horribly abused (alcoholic step father and his influence on my mother.).....there is a BIG difference between the two. (and THAT is why I RARELY talk about my childhood between the ages of 8 and 20)

<sfb>

"abusers will abuse no matter what the law says"

Exactly.

By making such law, the only people who will be effected are the already honest, common-sense, law abiding citizens. Those who will abuse, will abuse no matter what....it is not much different than all the "pain med cr@p" that is going on right now. It does nothing to fix the illegal drugs problem....it only causes problems for the honest and law-abiding.


"however to take that a step further and make a law that says I can't spank my kid is an invasion. The government did not have my child, I did. The government is not raising my child, I am. The government needs to spend more time and money on EDUCATION and less on making laws that can land responsible, loving parents in jail."

Can I hear an AMEN?!?!? This is so right on the target.

[Artiste-LiLi]

I havent read anyones responses, but the only way I think that it should'nt be illegal is I don't agree that the goverment has the right to pass a law telling what we can do with our children or not. If such a law passes, what stops them from passing other laws telling us what we can do/not do. Otherwise I dont advocate spanking as way to discipline children.


From what I have read here...no one is advocating spanking as a "first line" way to discipline....I believe it has been most frequently referred to a "last ditch effort"?

At least, that is how I view it....you've tried everything else (no-no, icky, don't touch, please do or don't do whatever....) numerous times and nothing has worked; you have to do something to get the child's attention....one (sometimes two) open handed, not very hard swat(s) on the bottom is sometimes the only thing that will do the job and is usually the "last line of defense" so to speak.

I'm with someone else on here who said they'd much rather see a couple of those kind of bottom swats than see the parent yanking the child so hard by the arm that you fear for the arm integrity.

I don't like spanking either....but in caring for my 3 nieces (6 mos, 23 mos., 5 years), sometimes a swat on the bottom is the ONLY way to get the 23 mo. old to do as she has been told.

[Artiste-LiLi]

Originally Posted by Aidron [original] (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=3356454#post3356454)


Besides, child protection laws are already completely asinine, why aim to make it worse? If a child screams something is wrong, whether it is or is not, the whole world comes to a crashing halt and extraordinary measures are taken.



I wish this were true.

Winter

It does happen.....just not nearly enough when it REALLY NEEDS to happen...but it does happen. My sister is a prime example; she is a teacher, she has a STRICT "no touch" policy meaning her students do not touch her in any way and she does not touch her students in any way....not too long ago a child in her class got angry with my sister for something silly (I think the student was told to be seated and would not, so my sister gave the student a demerit which meant the student would not get to go to the "school store" that week),this student went home and told her parents that my sister grabbed her by the arms and shook her in front of the whole class...............not true...............yet now...my sister is embroiled in a lawsuit over something she did not do.

[Artiste-LiLi]

That's one of the problems, people don't know really what's appropriate and what's not. And what age is it appropriate to begin to spank and when to stop. There's people who will spank their children until they are adults, surely there has to be a different rules on how to raise an infant, toddler, young child, teen, and even young adult.


That is why people need to use common sense and that is why, I think, people should attend some type of parenting classes when they conceieve their first child. It is sad to say...but there are many many people who need "common sense eduction".

I've been on both ends of this....as a small child (oh say ages 1.5 to 7.5) I did get the occasional "swat on the butt" spanking, I do remember them AND I remember WHY I got them...it was ALWAYS for doing something that I had been repeatedly told NOT to do, to keep me from doing something that would harm me and/or for behaving in some way I should not. I also remember my cousins' and friends spankings' and why they got them...same reasons, safety issues/boundary issues/behavioural issues. It taught me boundaries and it taught me that I should listen to my mother when she told me "no" the first time.

Then as an older child, teen and young adult (ages 7 3/4 to 20) I was HORRIBLY abused....and trust me...there is a BIG difference.

Common Sense:

If a child is old enough to be getting into or doing things that the child should not get into or do..because said thing will hurt the child or the child is misbehaving...then once the child has been asked, and/or told, what to do and or not do; and/or the child has been removed to a distance from the problem (if possible) and the child STILL behaves in the incorrect manner...a small swat or two on the bottom is not harmful. Then as the child ages, most will no longer need that occasional swat and will do as told when asked. Once a child reaches an age to make the connection between "I do this behaviour, I lose this priviledge"...then spanking is not effective and is not needed.

On average the age ranges tend to be: 1 to 4...swats occasionally needed as a last ditch effort to make the child behave (again, common sense: would you let a child touch a hot stove eye? No..of course not. What if you did everything else you could..telling no, explaining the "why", et al.....and the child persisted in trying to touch that hot eye? What then? Just never turn the stove eye on again to avoid "temptation"? Let them touch it to "learn the hard way"?)
4-6...swats rarely needed unless this is a "hard case child"..by this age most children can be "reasoned" with to some degree and spanks can be avoided except in extreme circumstances.
6 and up...these ages you should be able to reason with and they should be able to connect the "do this/lose that" reasoning.

Of course, all this has to be balanced by the individual child...my5 yr. old niece is very sensitive, always has been, and has never needed more than a curt/clipped/strong "NO".
My 23 month old niece is a whooooole 'nother story...we call her "Danger Baby" for a reason and sometimes a swat is the ONLY thing that will get her focus off of something and onto you.
The 6 month old...needs little to no discipline..though we are starting to need to take hair, earrings, necklaces and other things she can manage to grab ..from her hands and give her a firm "no". Unfortunately...she is showing some of her 23 month old sister's stubborn streak. *sigh* So we shall see.....

I always knew what I was being spanked for when I was small...............but when I was older....well, that is another story all together.

[Evinmeer]

I'm not for spanking and I don't know what "nonsense" says that you shouldn't be mad or angry when giving a spanking to a child :( I'm sorry but to even want to spank a child you have to be pretty angry or mad with them and really if you spank a child while you are happy and smiling something is wrong with you.The difference between a spanking and just hitting a child out of anger consists of two things: the child's prior knowledge of the consequence of their actions, and the parent's enforcement of those consequences the first time around.

Spanking = Child misbehaves, parent warns the child of consequences, child continues to misbehave, parent disciplines

Abuse = Child misbehaves, parent ignores, child misbehaves, parent yells, child misbehaves, parent lashes out in whatever physical means available to them

When I say "angry", I am referring to the emotional state of the parent who has waited to address their child's behavior until it became such an annoyance or a threat that they explode. I am not referring to the very normal, very common emotion every parent experiences when they tell their child not to do something and then turn around to find the kid doing exactly that.

[wolfjan1]

Hell no. If anything, kids should be beaten more these days!

Besides, child protection laws are already completely asinine, why aim to make it worse? If a child screams something is wrong, whether it is or is not, the whole world comes to a crashing halt and extraordinary measures are taken. Fine, children are our future, we get it, but let's maintain some degree of reason and sense while heading toward that future.
We are not talking about being "beaten." we are talking about a spanking or a finger tapping. A swat on a clothed butt with a cupped hand, ONLY to stop a child from hurting him/her self or some one else is NOT corporal punishment.
Raise an "entitled" violent, obnoxious brat, visit him/her in Juvenile detention/jail/right before they are executed. But don't blame society, blame yourself.