On the topic of spanking, when does it become abuse?

[PrincessKLS]

Okay whether you agree with it or not, most states don't have rules against spanking or they have specific restrictions (I've looked it up). But when does a spanking become abuse in your opinion? Is it safe to say that using a switch, belt, etc is abusive? What age is appropriate to start spanking and to stop spanking?

[Aidron]

Okay whether you agree with it or not, most states don't have rules against spanking or they have specific restrictions (I've looked it up). But when does a spanking become abuse in your opinion? Is it safe to say that using a switch, belt, etc is abusive? What age is appropriate to start spanking and to stop spanking?

I personally think that unless you're going to warn the child of impending doom (I think Athena-Nadine gave an example of such in a similar thread), that it's unnecessary. However, I would not label it abuse per se. Abuse I would think occurs when the motivation is inflicting injury for the sake of inflicting injury. As for implements, I'd probably call those abusive. Seriously, why do you need them? You can hurt the child with your hand just as easily, and the point is not to hurt them anyway, but to shock them into snapping back into reality so they'll listen. As for age, who knows, I've never reared any children so I don't know when the appropriate age is to start beating sense into kids, but probably the sooner, the better.

And I will say that as a child, I never learned one single lesson any time I was spanked at times when I wasn't in immediate danger or placing someone or something in immediate danger. If anything, it made me resent those individuals... and to this day not one of them that ever spanked me do I like. All aunts, uncles, sisters, however.

I don't really see it as a valid form of punishment, since all you're doing is really punishing yourself in the long run. The child's tears will dry up and the physical pain will subside, and while there may be emotional scars to some degree you are going to be the one suffering when that child resents you for inflicting bodily harm on them.

[PandoraHealer]

yup...
I agree...
I dont think using a belt/etc is appropriate- i've thumped mine on the forehead with a spatula but he didn't even whine- he just wouldnt get out from under my feet- i got the spatula out of the drawer to cook and there he was again- thump "go sit in the living room" ... and away he went- didnt make a peep.

I've also lopped a pillow across the room at him to get his attention. A lot of times i'm holding a sleeping baby and he follows his father with "selective hearing" -- its hard not to "hear" a pillow to the back... it doesn't hurt him- he whips around and i point to where i want him to sit...

but i'm certainly not busting his butt bloody with a belt...

I will swat his heavily diapered butt if he's headed for the road or beating up on the animals- things like that aren't allowed here. hell- the boy goes in time out for running over our 9 year old german shepherd. She lays there and takes it but whines and looks pitiful the whole time- and i dont tolerate it. and as soon as hes off her and in time out- she leaves the room to hide for a while.

i think its all a matter of how far you take a spanking that matters... Have i swatted my son harder than i should have before? yes? not often though- and i feel horrible for it. but he certainly doesn't have bruises or a bloody butt from a harder spanking. he just cries and lets me know that was too much. and we talk ("talk") and relax a little...

anyway- i'm rambling...

[PrincessKLS]

That's a good point, my sisters sometimes acted like parents growing up and that including spanking (according to one of them I was never spanked by mom and dad, but Iknow that's a lie) and because of that and so much more we all have a strained relationship. My sisters are 8 and 11 years older than me so that's one reason they'd "take over" sometimes.

[Marcasite]

I think it becomes abusive when you do it out of anger, use a belt or other implement and hit more than once or twice in a row. I'd prefer not to spank my own unless there's immediate danger (swatting a little hand away from a hot stove, for example) just because I don't think it ever did me any good and I think there are usually alternatives.
But I wouldn't criticize any other parent's decision on what's best for their kid, providing it's not abusive.

[phoenixrising]

When it becomes a venting of your anger/frustration instead of a genuine attempt to correct a bad behavior.. and I agree it's useless unless its part of a already known set of consequences in the childs mind.

[Aidron]

That's a good point, my sisters sometimes acted like parents growing up and that including spanking (according to one of them I was never spanked by mom and dad, but Iknow that's a lie) and because of that and so much more we all have a strained relationship. My sisters are 8 and 11 years older than me so that's one reason they'd "take over" sometimes.

Similar situation here. Both my sisters have almost 2 decades on me. One is the type to never discipline, buy her kids alcohol, procure drugs for them, and let them have sex in her living room. The other is the type that will slap her children if they so much as roll her eyes at them. The latter spanked me quite a bit growing up for things that made no sense (like telling one of her 2,958 boyfriends "You're not my father").

To this day, I think they should both be pushed in front of a moving vehicle.

[PrincessKLS]

XOXO to you, so sorry :) I flat out hate one of my sisters and oddly enough she became a social worker and mentors kids.

[moonchild]

according to CPS in this state if you leave a mark or use impliments its considered abuse. you can spank, open handed with enough control to not leave a mark, but anything stronger, either by calculated force or not is abuse and reportable to CPS.

[Chesna]

The answer is..it depends on where you live. The reason why I know this is I am a social worker for child protection in MN. Here in MN the law states that a parent has the right to spank a child with an open hand, but it cannot leave marks, bruises or scratches ect. Spanking a child with ANY object here in MN is considered child abuse and that includes a closed hand/fist. In other states and countries this will vary.

Chesna

[PrincessKLS]

I don't think Virginia has a law against not using belts, etc and in fact, even in foster care you can use open hand spanking.

That said, what ages do you think are appropriate for spanking? Like I said before, some people will spank their kids until adulthood and others just when they are little.

[Lunacie]

I don't think abuse should be defined soley on what is used to administer the spanking. Attitude is also part of the equation. If the spanking is done in anger or frustration instead of looking for another way of dealing with the problem... if the spanking is a form of control and saying "I'm the boss and you must obey me"... or if spanking is the only form of discipline and there is never any discussion about why the child misbehaved and help for teaching the child other ways to behave... it may be abuse.

However, I have a very short fuse and almost no patience and I've certainly spanked when I was frustrated and without trying to find another way to handle it.

As a corollary to this question, how about parents who shout at their children and use put downs? When is that abuse?

[WolfPup522]

I don't think abuse should be defined soley on what is used to administer the spanking. Attitude is also part of the equation. If the spanking is done in anger or frustration instead of looking for another way of dealing with the problem... if the spanking is a form of control and saying "I'm the boss and you must obey me"... or if spanking is the only form of discipline and there is never any discussion about why the child misbehaved and help for teaching the child other ways to behave... it may be abuse.

Absolutely! I have probably swatted or spanked out of frustration, but I never have left a mark on my child nor did I continuously spank like a mad woman out of control. I have the added advantage of now knowing that my 14 year old does not resent me at all - quite the opposite, in fact. We are very close and she doesn't even ever remember getting spanked. Not that an older child or adult not remembering that someone intentionally broke their arm at 3 years old isn't abuse... my point is that light spanking, swatting, and hand smacking sometimes is a valid tool in getting a child's attention and keeping them from harm. It shouldn't leave emotional scars on a pyschologically healthy adult.

I guess the bottom line for me is that spanking/swatting/etc. should keep a child from harm (directly or indirectly), not put them in harms way.

A few people (including the original post) have asked about appropriate ages. I don't think there is a set age that works for every child. I starting swatting my daughter when she started walking and doing things like sticking little soggy fingers in dangerous places. I don't remember a specific age when I stopped, but it was more her maturity level. She was probably about 4 or 5 when my raised voice served the same purpose as swatting. Stuff like taking away priveleges worked better with her by then.

[PrincessKLS]

Well I don't think teenagers should be spanked, by the time they reach that age, other disciplines should be used.

[PrincessKLS]

Also when it comes to kids undressing to get whipped, I think that's wrong. In fact that might be bordering on sexual abuse. Some kids are asked to stripped to their underwear while others have to get practically naked. Very wrong.

[CeriseAmaranth]

I can agree with being spanked sans clothes is too far, but getting spanked in general? I'm for it. I got spanked when I messed up and let me tell you, I didn't mess up often. This whole sitting kids in a corner or sending them to their rooms garbage does very little - that's why kids are horrible these days. They aren't disciplined. They run the home because parents are too afraid to do anything because people can't mind their own friggin' business. I don't support people who hit their kids and I definitely don't go for smacking them in the face or head, but a whack on the bottom when a kid screws up is not abuse.

[RavensEye]

But when does a spanking become abuse in your opinion? Is it safe to say that using a switch, belt, etc is abusive? What age is appropriate to start spanking and to stop spanking?
It becomes abusive when their are bruises left on the childs skin and is done for the stupidest of reason or are done out of anger becuase the person cannot deal with thier emotions any other way..

As for the belt, well considering my upbringing it was belt, skipping ropes, wooden or plastic spoons....My two older siblings sometimes got the electric cord, none of it is acceptable in my opinion.

As for the age thing I am going to have to think on that.

[Garnet Heart]

I find it somewhat perplexing that murderers often receive a lesser sentence for a "crime of passion" than a cold, premeditated kill. Somehow it's the opposite with striking your child. Cool and collected, go ahead. Angry and impassioned and you have no right. Strange.

No matter how hard I try, I can't see spanking as anything other than "might makes right." We should hurt children to teach them a lesson because we can't reason with them. We can't reason with animals...so do people spank their pets too?

And if people spank their kids to teach them not to do stupid and dangerous things, wouldn't teenagers be as much in need of spanking if not more than small children? Or is it a lost cause at that point?

I just don't get it.

[Tanya]

my poor mother had a horrible incident happen when she was a teacher... she put her hand gentely on the shoulder of a misbehaving kid just as an "Hey, i'm here and you need to focus" and the kid was surprized... turned under her fingers and was scratched by her fingernail,... the cry was 'abuse' because she left a mark.. when it was clearly an accident

she was both furious and hunmiliated.....

I know teachers aren't supposed to touch kids, but i still do... kids need to be touched.... hugged, patted on the back, given ^5s and even sometimes... just putting your hand on their shoulder like she did to say "Umm,.... I AM watching what your' doing"

where didi the world get so disturbed that anyone but a blood relative touching your child is abuse... its a weird weird world.

We are social animals... we need hugs.

[PrincessKLS]

I find it somewhat perplexing that murderers often receive a lesser sentence for a "crime of passion" than a cold, premeditated kill. Somehow it's the opposite with striking your child. Cool and collected, go ahead. Angry and impassioned and you have no right. Strange.

No matter how hard I try, I can't see spanking as anything other than "might makes right." We should hurt children to teach them a lesson because we can't reason with them. We can't reason with animals...so do people spank their pets too?

And if people spank their kids to teach them not to do stupid and dangerous things, wouldn't teenagers be as much in need of spanking if not more than small children? Or is it a lost cause at that point?

I just don't get it.


Well the thing about spanking teens, is that what if you get so used to spanking your child, you still spank them when they are 18 or 19? 20?

Legally, they are adults so it would be wrong.

And theoretically if you spank a child very young and teach them the rules, you won't have to do it when they are teens.

[wolfjan1]

Pretty soon, kids figure out what is dangerous if the parents are consistent. You have to teach them "the look" that will get them in to trouble. Talking to my Mother, she said that she would get our attention and give us "the look" (a raised eyebrow over her glasses). We knew to knock off the nonsense. If we had to get a swat over the pants, the other kids wouldn't let one live it down. "Hey, you got the look, why didn't you cut it out?"

[PrincessKLS]

Yes, I agree but teens and young adults are another different thing. When they start puberty kids can really push your buttons in a way that they never did before. And some parents are not ready for it or really know what to do.

[WolfPup522]

Yes, I agree but teens and young adults are another different thing. When they start puberty kids can really push your buttons in a way that they never did before. And some parents are not ready for it or really know what to do.

If you are still "spanking" your kids at that point, in my opinion there is something really wrong. When they get older, you have a wider variety of punishments available. No phone, TV, computer, driving, boyfriend visits, etc... you get the idea. I wouldn't dream of "spanking" my kid now that she's 14. It's ridiculous. Knowing she won't be able to get on the computer or won't be able to hang out with her friends is usually effective enough to keep her in line.

[PrincessKLS]

I agree, but I thought you were the one who said she didn't have a problem with spanking teens.

[WolfPup522]

I agree, but I thought you were the one who said she didn't have a problem with spanking teens.

Oh geez, NO! What I said was:

A few people (including the original post) have asked about appropriate ages. I don't think there is a set age that works for every child. I starting swatting my daughter when she started walking and doing things like sticking little soggy fingers in dangerous places. I don't remember a specific age when I stopped, but it was more her maturity level. She was probably about 4 or 5 when my raised voice served the same purpose as swatting. Stuff like taking away priveleges worked better with her by then.

Besides, she's stronger than I am now... :lol:. When she's getting on my nerves, I do tease her by saying "Don't make me beat you". It's our little way of her knowing to chill out before she gets in trouble. She's a good kid and neither one of us likes it when she gets herself in trouble.

[PrincessKLS]

Oh, okay sorry about that.

[WolfPup522]

Oh, okay sorry about that.

No problem. Sometimes it's hard to keep track in long threads! :smile:

[RavensEye]

Concerning the age limit or however it was put .. In my situation being spanked when I was 14 did not do much for me in fact it made me very much on edge and very violently angry,but then again it was not just spankings it was outrageous beatings..

As for my own kids I do not spank them that much or often and to me I feel once they are old enough to reason and understand what is dangerous and what not that there are other forms of discipline that can be used instead.

[Cielamara]

I think the last time I was spanked I was maybe 11 or so. My parents used the belt on me once or twice, but I never--even then!--felt it was abuse in any way. I was also only spanked when I'd really been a bad little Cielakitty.

[Evinmeer]

My opinion:

Spanking = Child misbehaves, parent warns the child of consequences, child continues to misbehave, parent disciplines

Abuse = Child misbehaves, parent ignores, child misbehaves, parent yells, child misbehaves, parent lashes out in whatever physical means available to themAs another poster has already said, the age at which spanking should begin and end ought to vary according to the child. IMO, however, I do think that physical reminders and training are more effective at an early age; for instance, thumping a baby's hand when you're establishing what "no" means. Some of the best-behaved children I have ever encountered were started on this method when they were still just crawling. It was an extremely gentle method, just a simple thump on the hand when the child reached for an off-limits object (remote, grandma's glasses, a coffee mug on the side table, etc.) and a quiet "no" at the same time; it was never done hard enough to even leave a red mark, but the suddenness of the discomfort was enough to make the child look up at you in that innocent, puzzled way allowing you to then distract them in some other pursuit. By the end of the week, you could leave a glass of red wine on a white carpet (theoretically speaking, of course) and the child would happily play around it regardless of whether or not there was someone to see. By the time these kids were toddlers, just the word was enough to put a stubborn pout on their faces - and put an end to the discussion. There was no endless barrage of begging, and very seldom even a temper tantrum: in truth, the children were so wonderfully pleasant to be around I actually offered to babysit the little blighters. :-P And all because "no" had never meant anything to them except "no" to them.

My parents employed spanking during our younger years, but it was never done until they had sat down with us and "discussed" (ie, reinformed) us as to why the spanking was going to happen in the first place. Around age 10, the spankings took a decidedly military turn (military brat, ayah) and the spankings turned into push-ups. Although by that age we were pretty well-behaved (I think - I dunno, guess you'd have to ask my parents *grins*) nothing was quite as good a reminder to behave as hearing, "Oh really? Well then, you can just drop and give me 20!" when you're in the middle of Walmart. And in spite of what some people may think, no I'm not "emotionally scarred" from the experiences, either - but I am very strong! :-P