Are demons only Christian concepts?

[MonSno_LeeDra]

If one looks at many of the demons and darker creatures from biblical concepts one will find many of the elder gods. Many of the elder gods / goddess striped of thier devinity yet enpowered with some form of satanic power and influence within the confines of the various layers of hell.

If I understand it correctly many of these elder gods / goddess demonized to place them in polar oppositon to the Christian God and Jesus. To make them more "evil" in comparrison to the 'good' of the biblical god. To paint them as liars and corupt in opposition to the Truthfulness and honesty of Christanity.

Yet what other creatures where incorporated into this cluster? Many people judge that Deamons and other nightmareish creatures are unique to Christanity but are they trully? If one would bring in their elder gods / goddess then one would also have to incorporate the creatures of less than devine ability.

So if you hear of a Christian priest performing an exorcism and drivng the demon out is it only a Christian creation? Could it actually be one of the other "Things" that were demonized by the early church yet actually existed outside the elder gods / goddess that the church demonizzed to turn the people away from them?

To make these same darker forces lesser than the Christian God. To show they were powerless before the christian God. In some instances to make them the very bane or persona of a non-Christian life style. The Vampire that coveres before the cross so to speak.

When one thinks of the biblical demons, do we do a disservice to ourselves by saying they are only christionized creations? We (Collectively) dismiss thier existance and say we don't recongize their Devil and Satan but what if they existed before the rise of the Christian God?

Many mythologies speak of Trolls, Elfs, Dwarfs, Wights, etc. We see them recorded in ancient tales, epic Sagas and eddas and perhaps accept their existance. We have belief systems built around the Whee folk and other Fairies. Some of these very creatures also demonized by the church.

Yet, when we refuse to accept one facet of a religion because of its past actions upon us (Colelctively) do we ignore the hidden histories based upon ancient lore and mystecism at our own peril?

Granted some of the early horrors where based upon things our collective ancestors didn't understand and created to help put thier world in some manner of order. But are thier also things hidden in those histories that may actually reveal a creature or race that was known to our ancestors and rightly feared that we ignore because they were hiden in the guise of some Christiainized demon?

[Halstrom]

In Mesopotamian mythology there were demons. And in Hinduism there are entities that could be classified as demons. And in the Hebrew Bible, there are demons. So demons are not solely a Christian concept.

[Alitheos]

the same basic concepts predominate thrughout almost all human belife systems. some would argue, and i belive this is because the same kinds of things happen to people no matter were they are. when christians come across any entity that is more or less than mortal they have to find a place for it in there belife system, so it gets classified as either good (trying to help), or bad (trying to harm). angellic or demonic. dark or light, yin or yang. call it whatever you want its all basiclly the same. But those of us who have a clue dont see the world as black and white, there are shades of grey instead.

[Tanya]

I don't buy the 'forces of evil' thing in any way shape or form...

I believe shit happens.. really bad shit sometimes..... but that its organized or a force unto itself.. nope.... its just plain ole' disorganized shit.

[aluokaloo]

there are demons and malicious spirits from cultures all over the world.

[goaway]

there are demons and malicious spirits from cultures all over the world.

yup. korean lore is full of them.

[aluokaloo]

ooh sounds interesting I know nada about korean lore? care to tell us first hand? :D

[goaway]

ooh sounds interesting I know nada about korean lore? care to tell us first hand? :D

maybe over the weekend i'll pm you with various bits. also, older korean customs have more to do with mudang(shamans) and mago-mythology than buddhism. i'lle give you a run down soon

[Labrynth]

I dont believe that there are entities out there that are purposefully trying to harm us, man does a fine enough job doing evil all on its own.

[Meadhbh]

I agree with the people who say there are things that don't have our best interest in mind from all cultures. Whither or not they fit what people would call a demon is up to you. But not every one is happy and fluffy out there. Some of them would enjoy eating you.

[The Amityville Ghost]

The word "demon" originates from ancient Greece, and it does not even mean "an evil spirit." Originating from the Greek daimon and the Latin daemon, it was originally used to describe lesser divinities who existed between human beings and the gods. Creatures like satyrs and nymphs were considered to be daemons in this context. The term was without any connotation of good or evil whatsoever. There were both good daemons (agathodaemons) and bad daemons (cacodaemons).

In effect, the word "daemon" is more or less a synonym for our modern word "angel." The Greeks believed that everyone had their own personal guardian daemon (like the "guardian angel" concept of today), and in some cases it was believed the daemon was a person's higher self (as in Crowley's Conversation with the Holy Guardian Angel).

In Yezidism, there is one Supreme God/dess (impersonal) and seven lesser deities (personal) who are emanations of Its essence. These lesser deities are normally called archangels, but they can also be described as archdaemons in the original pagan sense of the term, because they exist between ourselves and the Highest.

I don't believe in the concept of "Satan" - i.e., an evil fallen angel who orchestrates any and all opposition against God and humankind - for in Yezidism the fallen angel redeemed himself by destroying Hell and became the King of all daemons (making him second only to God Herself). I believe that there may indeed be cacodaemons floating around, but even these spirits are not "evil" so much as they are just unfriendly and dangerous toward humans, and they certainly aren't part of some cosmic "force of Evil."

I have never found any evidence to convince me that there are any spirits that "take possession" of people against their wills. Whenever this is believed to be happening, it is always shown to be a case of mental disorder; there's nothing supernatural about it. This isn't to say that I discount the sort of daemonic possession that occurs in Vodun, for in such cases the possession is consensual between the spirit and the practitioner. (The Vodun Lwa can rightfully be considered daemons in the same way the Yezidi Archangels are considered such.) It is to say, however, that I think exorcisms are bunk.

But even if we are to define the term "demon" strictly in the sense of an "evil spirit," then no, it is not just a Christian concept. It is also a Jewish concept, an Islamic concept, a Zoroastrian concept, a Babylonian concept, an Egyptian concept, etc.

[plumedsnake]

I have never found any evidence to convince me that there are any spirits that "take possession" of people against their wills. Whenever this is believed to be happening, it is always shown to be a case of mental disorder; there's nothing supernatural about it. This isn't to say that I discount the sort of daemonic possession that occurs in Vodun, for in such cases the possession is consensual between the spirit and the practitioner. (The Vodun Lwa can rightfully be considered daemons in the same way the Yezidi Archangels are considered such.) It is to say, however, that I think exorcisms are bunk.




Spirit possession in Vodun is not often consensual. The initial crisis is very rarely willed.

There is not much difference (if any at all) between exorcism and initiation into possession cults.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I think I may not have made myself clear on this one. I realize that all cultures had their good and bad charactes in mythos.

What I was thinking about where creatures that might be or were real to the area that were demonized by Christianity as they were more a local lore than preceived as real.

For instance the wild man of Boreno has been identified as the Orangatang. The large hairy man of africa is now known to be the Mountain Gorilla. Two very real creatures that where passed on as myth yet finally discovered to be real. Yet myths that were demonized as Christanity entered the area.

In the bible the fight of David and Goliath their was a group that once suspected Goliath of being a Neanderthal. Was he? Perhaps he was from the descriptions.

So are their clues to now exstinked or undiscovered creatures in the demons of the bible and Christanity? My personal opinion is yes, yet we can never find them or discover them if we denounce them because they were demonized.

[The Amityville Ghost]

Spirit possession in Vodun is not often consensual. The initial crisis is very rarely willed.

There is not much difference (if any at all) between exorcism and initiation into possession cults.

I stand corrected. I have had experiences which lead me to conclude that there are such things as succubi, so I recognize the possibility that possession is real. I just haven't seen a case yet that wasn't really a psychological disturbance of some kind.


Granted some of the early horrors where based upon things our collective ancestors didn't understand and created to help put thier world in some manner of order. But are thier also things hidden in those histories that may actually reveal a creature or race that was known to our ancestors and rightly feared that we ignore because they were hiden in the guise of some Christiainized demon?

[...]

So are their clues to now exstinked or undiscovered creatures in the demons of the bible and Christanity? My personal opinion is yes, yet we can never find them or discover them if we denounce them because they were demonized.

Well anything's possible I guess. But what Christianized demons are we talking about here, exactly? Are you talking about specific characters like Beelzebub and Astaroth, or do you mean something more general, like the medieval idea of vampires?

[skilly-nilly]

I don't buy the 'forces of evil' thing in any way shape or form...

I believe shit happens.. really bad shit sometimes..... but that its organized or a force unto itself.. nope.... its just plain ole' disorganized shit.


I dont believe that there are entities out there that are purposefully trying to harm us, man does a fine enough job doing evil all on its own.

Something about Australia?


I agree with the people who say there are things that don't have our best interest in mind from all cultures. Whither or not they fit what people would call a demon is up to you. But not every one is happy and fluffy out there. Some of them would enjoy eating you.


Even the (to me anthropocentric) pov of Tanya and Labyrinth, there are individuals among humankind who act badly/maliciously/with evil intent. Say, serial killers. Not to mention that if factory hens had a culture, humans would be Evil Gods.

If one's world-view includes not-humans with individual personalities, then who's to say that some of them aren't the Spirit equivalent of serial killers? Or if (as a supposition) they fed off of the fear or rage or suffering of humans then they (as we do to factory hens) would maximize their food source.

Just to say that humans do evil to themselves (which I agree with) doesn't require that non-humans don't as well.

Even though this is off-topic for MSL's op.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

The Amityville Ghost wrote:



Are you talking about specific characters like Beelzebub and Astaroth, or do you mean something more general, like the medieval idea of vampires?


I don't think the greater demons and devils would fall into this. For the most part they are identifed as elder gods / goddess from earlier Middle Eastern religions. I think they have (had) such a large geopolitical area of influence that they had to be given greater status and a larger world inpact.

The vampire of lore could fall into what I'm thinking about. But more so as a living persona of unexplained death and resurection. Medical knowledge being so lacking it would appear devine if one rose from the dead or the hand of satan if they were not of a strong religious position.

What i'm thinking about though probally would not be found in a enclyopedia of demons and devils. They would be the things that are localized and mainly impact upon local lore and culture. For instance the Wendigo of Northern American lore was a demonized spirit. Outside that area it has little influence or knowledge yet it was of such status and influence that it had to be addressed by the early church.

Is it a spirit? Is it an actual creature? Is it just a persona of something? Or is it what the Indians claimed ..." the evil spirit that devours mankind"

http://www.prairieghosts.com/wendigo.html

Some of the lessor demons and devils have been identified as Orangatangs or Gorillas. Some even shown as creatures normal to the area like the Tsavo River Lions (Kenya) ie The Ghost and the Darkness.

http://www.fieldmuseum.org/exhibits/exhibit_sites/tsavo/maneaters.html

Things classified as demons and devils by local custom and church but clues to actual creatures or myths possibly atributed to actual creatures.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

Of course other cultures have demons. They may not *call* them that, but the concept translates - a malevolent being, usually of a spiritual nature, who goes around messing stuff up, and is often associated with a disease of some sort.

[plumedsnake]

Would you mean like the Nephilim? In that case you will find this very interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim

The bible doesn't state explicitly that the nephilim were the product of the sexual union of Gods and humans, but it does say that they were around when the Sons of God took a fancy to the daughters of Men and started having sex with them.

However if you look deeper into the context of the scripture (Genesis chapter 6- vs. 1 to 4) it actually seems to be about the incompatibility of Flesh and Spirit. First God says that he will not let his spirit stay with man for more than 120 years because man is flesh. Then this is swiftly followed by spiritual beings having intercourse with humans to create the Heroes of Old.

Yes, Golaith it seems was believed to be a descendant from these Nephilim.

The whole affair seems so murky that I can't actually ascertain anything from it. It is one of those passages that christians love because you can twist it to mean anything that suits you.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Thanks for the link Plumedsnake. That is one facet of what I was refering to. While it can't be proven it is something to think about. Sort of like the facet of the story where after Cain has slain Abel he goes forth and mates with the daughters of man in the land of Nod. Only problem is biblically at that time thier is no other race of man so who where the daughters of man?

Of course it could be Tir-Na-Nog of Irish fame. Sorry just a cross though thier Nog - Nod.

The Nephilim would be a viable source, accept my understading is that occured long after Cain and Abel. Or the statement where "God" says put no others before me, Ok if thier are no others then why make such a statement?

I just find it sort of funny that many Pagans (collective use) will read epic saga's or Edda's for clues yet avoid the Bible as a source of hidden ideas. But I would guess that this derives from the fact not to many Pagans claim a pre-Christian midde eastern religious following.

And lets face it it is sort of hard to discuss the bible and its hidden references without it being construed as a study of Christanity.

[David19]

Demons are not solely a Christian concept, like others have said, demons appear in every culture and mythology, the Mesopotamian religion had loads of demons (although demons were seen as "pure evil", they could be used by humans for positive purposes too, like protection, etc. The only really evil demon/goddess in the Mesopotamian religion is Lamastu, who would kill babies and pregnant mothers, she was evil for evils sake, a sociopath of the supernatural realm).

Like Meadhbh and Skilly-nilly said, not everything in the spiritual/supernatural realms is "nice" or "good". Just like humans can be evil (e.g. you get sociopaths, rapists, psychopaths, etc), the same holds true for the spiritual/supernatural realms.

BTW, while a lot of Christian demons do have their origins in Gods and Goddesses (Baal being the most most famous one, having his origin in the Canaanite God, Ba'al, etc), I don't see those demons as being the same as the Gods, they are different (in both of personalities, level of power, etc). I think some of the Christian demons are related to the Gods, but only in a descendant kind of way (e.g. like you're related to your grandfather, but you're different, you have your own personality, etc).

Hope that made some sense :).

[David19]

I agree with the people who say there are things that don't have our best interest in mind from all cultures. Whither or not they fit what people would call a demon is up to you. But not every one is happy and fluffy out there. Some of them would enjoy eating you.


Even the (to me anthropocentric) pov of Tanya and Labyrinth, there are individuals among humankind who act badly/maliciously/with evil intent. Say, serial killers. Not to mention that if factory hens had a culture, humans would be Evil Gods.

If one's world-view includes not-humans with individual personalities, then who's to say that some of them aren't the Spirit equivalent of serial killers? Or if (as a supposition) they fed off of the fear or rage or suffering of humans then they (as we do to factory hens) would maximize their food source.

Just to say that humans do evil to themselves (which I agree with) doesn't require that non-humans don't as well.


I agree with you 2 both, like Skilly-nilly said, I have no trouble believing there are spirits and other supernatural beings who are the equivalent of serial killers, of sociopaths, psychopaths, even the equivalent of rapists (Lamastu of Mesopotamia could probably be called a sociopath), and I could equally see that there are spirits who feed off of our suffering and want to prolong it and make it more intense. IMO, there are a wide variety of other beings, probably too many to ever mention, out there, some are "good", some are "evil" and some are both (a mixture, kind of like humans are), some just don't care, etc - just like humanity.

[David19]

maybe over the weekend i'll pm you with various bits. also, older korean customs have more to do with mudang(shamans) and mago-mythology than buddhism. i'lle give you a run down soon

Would you mind sharing any info about that with me, I'd really like to learn more about Korean lore and demons, etc.

Thanks :).

[Lunacie]

Ooh, interesting topic. :)

I agree that some of the things that were "demonized" by the authors (and rewriters) of the bible were natural creatures that were not known and understood yet. But I believe there are also spirits that mankind has long tried to ascribe human logic and emotions to, and that makes about as much sense as trying to ascribe human logic or emotions to what animals do and why they do it. Perhaps the spirits are just trying to protect their space or their loved ones. Perhaps they are simply pissed because some ignorant human is messing with stuff they don't understand and disturbing the spirits.

[dragoncrone]

Pardon the pun... *snork*

What fascinates me about the 'evil spirits' in other cultures is the way they are portrayed. Some tempt innocent souls to go astray, others just mess with everyone who passes by; some have a specific agenda in mind, some are mean and crazy.

The concepts it perceives as 'evil' reveal much about a civilization; take 'Satanic Verses,' for example...:hahugh:

[Whitewolf]

Interesting topic. Demons aren't just a christian concept. Basically all cultures have them.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I agree that all culture's have creature's that through cultural exchange and comparrison we would classify as Demons. But within thier own cultural content does their usuage of the word "daemon" compare to the typical Christianized meaning of the word "Demon"?

Many of the "demons" have other roles they perform within the social and political structure of those systems. Some are tricksters, some are punishers, some have no malice towards humans we just get in their way. Some hold positions of protection and association with specific family functions or social positions.

Yet the typical "demon" of christian mythos is aimed at harm to the human race. Harm covering a mulitude of possibilities but all aligned towards something that the end result is a negative outcome.

It is in this regard I was asking the question of is the term "Demon" a Christian concept. Even though many nations have them many have had their influence or reason for interaction changed to match this "Evil" incarnate imagery.

[LadyCelt]

I think we tend to call bad things demons. I'm not sure if they all are though. But, it seems many cultures have good spirits or beings and bad ones. There tends to be the battle of good vs. evil throughout.

I think to really research it, Zoroastrianism may be something to look into. They had the big dualism and winged creatures etc.

[David19]

I agree that all culture's have creature's that through cultural exchange and comparrison we would classify as Demons. But within thier own cultural content does their usuage of the word "daemon" compare to the typical Christianized meaning of the word "Demon"?

Many of the "demons" have other roles they perform within the social and political structure of those systems. Some are tricksters, some are punishers, some have no malice towards humans we just get in their way. Some hold positions of protection and association with specific family functions or social positions.

Yet the typical "demon" of christian mythos is aimed at harm to the human race. Harm covering a mulitude of possibilities but all aligned towards something that the end result is a negative outcome.

It is in this regard I was asking the question of is the term "Demon" a Christian concept. Even though many nations have them many have had their influence or reason for interaction changed to match this "Evil" incarnate imagery.

There are some cultures and religions that do have demons who want to harm humanity, like in the Sumerian religion, you have Lamastu, a demon/demi-goddess who harms pregnant mothers and kills babies solely for her own pleasure, she's somewhat like a sociopath of the supernatural/divine realms, you also have demons that want to harm humanity in Zoroastrianism (which is pre-Abraham), you have Apep and other agents of isfet in the Kemetic religion - beings who want nothing more than the destruction of humanity, of Ma'at (order), and basically goodness, etc.

Also, in Christianity, not all demons are "evil" per-se, in Ceremonial magic, like the more Christian ones, demons will be used to bring benefit to the magician/sorcerer, and there are other examples too.

[aluokaloo]

and in Japan they have a strange water creature called a Kappa who likes to reach through your anus and rip out your guts to eat. So not all of them are demons but not all of them are angels either, and there are plenty I'd prefer not to meet!

[MonSno_LeeDra]

David19 wrote:



Also, in Christianity, not all demons are "evil" per-se, in Ceremonial magic, like the more Christian ones, demons will be used to bring benefit to the magician/sorcerer, and there are other examples too.


True only to the extent that the magician stays outside the protective ring and the demon stays inside. Even then an offering is usually needed to pay for the service. Add that most demons in this usuage are lesser demons, when the greater demons are encountered then the cost rises significantly as does the potential for the demon taking the magician.

However, the immediate result maybe to the magicians benifit but the long run usually costs something form the magician.

aluokaloo wrote:



and in Japan they have a strange water creature called a Kappa who likes to reach through your anus and rip out your guts to eat


These must be different Kappas than the ones I learnt about while I lived in Japan for 6 1/2 Years. Those Kappas are water spirits that where usually mischief makers and would pull victims to their death in the water, via drowning. However they could also be helpful at times. Even today if one goes to many lakes and manmade pools of water you will find images of Kappas carved into stone work around the water boundry. Actually, the image of the Kappa is sold as stuffed animals at many resort areas.

The big thing being they were identifiable by the bowl of water on top thier heads. If you could get them to look up or down the water emptied out and they had to flee back to the water.

[David19]

and in Japan they have a strange water creature called a Kappa who likes to reach through your anus and rip out your guts to eat. So not all of them are demons but not all of them are angels either, and there are plenty I'd prefer not to meet!

If I ever visit Japan, remind me never to sit on a toilet!.

[David19]

True only to the extent that the magician stays outside the protective ring and the demon stays inside. Even then an offering is usually needed to pay for the service. Add that most demons in this usuage are lesser demons, when the greater demons are encountered then the cost rises significantly as does the potential for the demon taking the magician.

However, the immediate result maybe to the magicians benifit but the long run usually costs something form the magician.

Not all Ceremonial Magicians who deal with demons end up getting dragged to the Christian Hell. In fact, it seems that most, not all, demons from the Christian mythos might help you, in return for something usually (like most interactions with humans, really), although if you cross them, they'll make you pay, but then if you don't, they'll leave you alone.

Also, in the Hellenic religion, there are Kakodaimones, who you probably don't want to meet down a dark alley, and also the more malevonent vampires in different cultures (including ancient Greece and others, etc).