English

[frank]

As an Englishman, I have been looking for any information on the magic of the Anglo Saxons, Jutes, etc.
Why is it that the Celtic and other groups are well provided but there is nothing for the English.

I feel that this is a very underestimated area of the craft.

Does anybody have any links for me.

Thanks

[TheTempestuous1]

And what makes you think that a great part of the english isn't Celtic? ;) I don't have any links for you but you might want to try the search option for the forum maybe type in anglo saxons ext.. or just a regualr searh engine like google.. If I end up finding anything myself I'll let you know.

[frank]

Thanks for the reply, and without turning this into a political debate, there is a world of difference between the English and the Celts, but then again, there is a world of difference between the real Celts, and the peoples that consider themselves Celtic.

Two leading archaeologists have recently produced evidence of the origins of the Irish which badly dents the theory of distinct Celtic ethnicity which forms an important part of the basis of Irish Nationalism.

Richard Warner, of the Ulster Museum in Belfast, said in an address to the Irish Association for Cultural, Economic and Social Relations that:-

"In round terms, the image of the Irish as a genetically Celtic people - in fact the whole idea of a Celtic ethnicity and of Celtic peoples, Irish, Welsh and all the rest of it - is a load of complete cock and bull. The average Irish person probably has more English genes than Celtic."
It was only in the 18th and 19th centuries, Warner said, that the idea of a common Celtic origin caught on, acting as a wellspring of Irish Nationalism. Since independence in the 1920s, Irish children have been taught that the Celts or Gaels settled the country and became the predominant racial group in the 5th or 6th century BC.
The evidence of archaeology, Warner argued, is that most Irish people are descended not from Celts but from Mesolithic hunters and fishermen who arrived around 8000 BC, possibly from Scotland. English invaders, he said, exerted the next greatest influence.
The Celts blossomed as a distinct civilisation around the 5th century BC, but although they were a distinct ethnic group within Central Europe they had no significant effect on the Irish gene pool, Warner continued. "If you find Celtic blood lines now, it will probably be among the Germans."
After prehistoric settlers, Irish leaders such as Brian Boru (born in AD 941) established proper kingdoms. But from about 1170 AD the English began arriving in waves of invasion after Dermot McMurragh, the King of Leinster, invited Richard de Clare, an Anglo-Norman warlord, to help him settle a dynastic dispute. The campaigns of Elizabeth I and Cromwell settled English tenants and former soldiers in Ireland.
In terms of the ability to recognise present DNA values, said Warner, the intrusion of English blood and Southern Scottish would be larger than any other group apart from the original Mesolithic inhabitants.
Professor Jim Mallory, an archaeologist and linguist from Queens University, Belfast, agreed, saying:-

"If you believe the Celtic languages spread late in pre-history, they were accompanied by a minimal population movement. There is no evidence in the archaeological record for a large influx of a foreign population."
Even Celtic music may be no more than a marketing ploy. According to Tommy Munnelly, chairman of the Irish Traditional Music Archive, "We have no idea what kind of music the Celts played."
Warner believes his case will be proved next year when the Royal Irish Academy completes its genetic map of Ireland. Thousands of DNA samples will be analysed and compared with genes from skeletons found by archaeologists.
According to Warner, whose findings were quoted in a report in The Sunday Times of 14th November:-

"There is a final irony in Ireland's 'Celtic' origin. The Aran islands off Galway, whose population is partly descended from a settlement of Cromwell's soldiers, is one of the last refuges of the Irish language. Aran is going to be the last bastion of spoken Irish, so the Irish language will die in the mouths of the English."

I understand this is contreversial, but if we are to follow our traditional paths of the craft, we do have to find out who we really are.

[TheTempestuous1]

Well thats certainly interesting (future archaeologist here) Thanks for sharing that with me. Although I'd probably want to wait until it was more proven to give an opinion. That said, however, the same can be true of many many different cultures. War and invasion has forever destroyed the notion of 'pure blood.' That goes for england as well. The original inhabitants were celtic in orgin, I believe from gaul. Then later on when the romans invaded circa 100 ad or so (don't know the exact figure off the top of my head). So much of the original celtic blood was mixed with the romans. Then later as you know around the late 300's hoards of invaders from all sides came to invade britian now that the Romans had withdrawn. So Britian really became a cesspool of different races all mixed in together, normans, saxons, vikings, the pictish people from Scotland, romans and celts. Now granted there may (and probably are) be more anglo saxon blood in the people now than any celtic, but many would still have some. But who's to say exactly what parts they are made up of most? Expecially in such a largely mixed orgin culture. I think when it comes down to it, whatever you feel most connected to is just fine for you to practise. And as for the people on the Aran islands, they may not be pure celts, but it is most definatly their culture now. They don't speak the irish out of stuborness (Except with hoping to keep it alive, thus passing it onto their children) but they have still been raised with it and so it is part of their being. Whether they are truly decended from cromwells soilders (most likely melting pots of genetic possiblility themselves) they are still irish. For example, a black person raised for generations in america is still an american. They may be african in origin, but america is their culture. I think the craft is what you make of it, and whatever you are most connnected to, you should practise. Genes are little matter if that is your culture, or the one you feel you are.

[TheTempestuous1]

PS I found some links.. heres a book, very convienently named "Anglo Saxon Magic" by Godfrid Storms

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0841478422/inktomi-bkasin-20/102-1128893-7351328

Anglo Saxon Metrical Charms

http://www.ealdriht.org/charms.html

Runes -- Has some links to Anglo Saxon ones

http://www.irminsul.org/ru/ru.html

Then this one looks really good, very comprehensive -- Woden, Anglo Saxon Heathenism

http://www.englishheathenism.homestead.com/woden.html

Also an artice I found, giving a brief history of the invasions..

Anglo-Saxons

Anglo-Saxons, name given to the Germanic-speaking peoples who settled in England after the decline of Roman rule there. They were first invited by the Celtic King Vortigern, who needed help fighting the Picts and Scots. The Angles (Lat. Angli), who are mentioned in Tacitus' Germania, seem to have come from what is now Schleswig in the later decades of the 5th cent. Their settlements in the eastern, central, and northern portions of the country were the foundations for the later kingdoms known as East Anglia, Mercia, and Northumbria. The Saxons, a Germanic tribe who had been continental neighbors of the Angles, also settled in England in the late 5th cent. after earlier marauding forays there. The later kingdoms of Sussex, Wessex, and Essex were the outgrowths of their settlements. The Jutes, a tribe about whom very little is known except that they probably came from the area around the mouths of the Rhine, settled in Kent (see Kent, kingdom of) and the Isle of Wight. The Anglo-Saxons eventually formed seven separate kingdoms known as the heptarchy. The term “Anglo-Saxons” was first used in Continental Latin sources to distinguish the Saxons in England from those on the Continent, but it soon came to mean simply the “English.” The more specific use of the term to denote the non-Celtic settlers of England prior to the Norman Conquest dates from the 16th cent. In more modern times it has also been used to denote any of the people (or their descendants) of the British Isles.

And if they are a German people, you might try investigating german folklore ext.. and if they are german (can't resist ;)) and many Germans are Celtic in orgin, wouldn't that give the english more Celtic blood than they think? ;) Could be wrong but it seems that way to me! hehe