Dark side of shamanism

[David19]

I was just wondering, do you think the dark side of shamanism has been forgotten or whitewashed by the New Age and/or the western world in general?. You see a lot of books and sites on shamanism and shamans, and a lot will say they are the forerunners to the priests and priestesses of religions, or that anyone can be a shaman (ignoring that really only the spirits and Gods can call a shaman), and they also seem to make it seem that shamans just enter altered states and let their spirit fly to the underworld to rescue souls, which I know they do do, but from some of the things I've read, they do a lot more.

I've recently come across these books on amazon.com called 'In Darkness and Secrecy: The Anthropology of Assault Sorcery and Witchcraft in Amazonia' by Carlos Fausto, Dominique Buchillet, Elsje Lagrou and others (http://www.amazon.com/Darkness-Secrecy-Anthropology-Witchcraft-Amazonia/dp/0822333457/ref=pd_sim_b_title_1) and also 'Dark Shamans: Kanaimà and the Poetics of Violent Death' by Neil Whitehead (http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Shamans-Kanaim%C3%A0-Poetics-Violent/dp/0822329883), both of these go into the darker aspects of shamanism and mention something called Kanaima, that seems to be a form of assault sorcery.

This page has some good info, IMO (http://whyfiles.org/164cannibal/4.html), and it just seems that there's a lot more to shamanism and being a shaman than just shaking a rattle and going into a trance state. Just from the very limited information I've read, it actually seems like a dangerous profession to have, as not only can the spirits and Gods kill you (just read some of Raven Kaldera's articles (http://www.cauldronfarm.com/)about when he was being called and trying to reject the call, especially this one (http://www.cauldronfarm.com/nine/intro.html)), but you also face enemies in the form of other shamans and/or sorcerers and other malevonent spirits and supernatural beings.

Personally, I really want to get those 2 books as they seem quite interesting and they don't whitewash the info, it comes from an anthropological/scholarly perspective rather than a New Age perspective.

Anyway, what are your thoughts, do you think shamanism has been whitewashed and made into something it's not and that the dark side of shamanism has been supressed and forgotten (not good, IMO, as anything that's repressed will come out eventually)?.

Also, if you've read those books, would you recommend them?.

Anyway, thanks for any replies, as I'd really love to hear your thoughts.

[Lupabitch]

I haven't read either of those, though they're on my wish list. However, I'd definitely agree that shamanism has become whitewashed. Combat magic is one area; rival shamans were known to attack each other and each other's communities. However, people also forget that in many cultures hunting magic was important, and animal sacrifice was practices--one Siberian tribe had a shamanic ritual that involved sacrificing a horse by painfully breaking its back.

People also forget that shamanism is dangerous--it can drive you crazy, cause spiritual (and some would also say physical) ailments, and Kaldera makes a good point on refusing the call. Many shamans became shamans through serious illnesses. ANd the shaman is intimately linked to death, as the psychopomp.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I don't know if Shamanism has been watered down or if the defination of what a Shaman is has been expanded to the point where the darker facet are lost in the light movement. In many instances I think the stripping of certain componets and placing them in other spiritual paths has given rise to the watered down presentation.

I also think to a degree the inclusion of things brough forth from other Pagan or Neo-Pagan belief systems has masked the darker facet of the Shamanic path. Some people have told me the "Skin Walkers" of Navajo origination are examples of the darker facet of a shamanic type working.

I believe the concept of the Spirit Keeper falls within the realm of the darker facets of the Shamanic type path. Having been in the military I encountered a number of people who spoke of a Warrior based Shamanic system that was built around battle and conflict.

On one site I used to vist (Its since gone off the net) thier was a woman of Native American heritage that spoke of a series of rituals and dances and drumming built around the warrior caste yet over seen by a warrior shaman (not the right word she used but I do not recall it).

While the majority of the net seems to point to Soul retrivals and realm work, that actually seemed to be a small percentage from people I had talked to. Many more seemed oriented towards underming the spiritual or fightning presence of thier enemies. Inducing famine and pestilance on crops and hunts while ensuring the success of thier own.

Some where aligned with the passage and apeasement of spiritual bodies from the mundane to the next life. Some where more Necro in thier main focus being with ancestors and spirits than actual living memebrs of their tribe.

However, I think one main reason is the inclusion of the term Shaman to be a broad sweeping cover for so many various belief systems. Shaman is a universal catch phrase, the unique names and phrases to the actual people or religion removed in favor of the universal nomenclature.

[darkchild]

I was just wondering, do you think the dark side of shamanism has been forgotten or whitewashed by the New Age and/or the western world in general?. You see a lot of books and sites on shamanism and shamans, and a lot will say they are the forerunners to the priests and priestesses of religions, or that anyone can be a shaman (ignoring that really only the spirits and Gods can call a shaman), and they also seem to make it seem that shamans just enter altered states and let their spirit fly to the underworld to rescue souls, which I know they do do, but from some of the things I've read, they do a lot more.

I've recently come across these books on amazon.com called 'In Darkness and Secrecy: The Anthropology of Assault Sorcery and Witchcraft in Amazonia' by Carlos Fausto, Dominique Buchillet, Elsje Lagrou and others (http://www.amazon.com/Darkness-Secrecy-Anthropology-Witchcraft-Amazonia/dp/0822333457/ref=pd_sim_b_title_1) and also 'Dark Shamans: Kanaimà and the Poetics of Violent Death' by Neil Whitehead (http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Shamans-Kanaim%C3%A0-Poetics-Violent/dp/0822329883), both of these go into the darker aspects of shamanism and mention something called Kanaima, that seems to be a form of assault sorcery.

This page has some good info, IMO (http://whyfiles.org/164cannibal/4.html), and it just seems that there's a lot more to shamanism and being a shaman than just shaking a rattle and going into a trance state. Just from the very limited information I've read, it actually seems like a dangerous profession to have, as not only can the spirits and Gods kill you (just read some of Raven Kaldera's articles (http://www.cauldronfarm.com/)about when he was being called and trying to reject the call, especially this one (http://www.cauldronfarm.com/nine/intro.html)), but you also face enemies in the form of other shamans and/or sorcerers and other malevonent spirits and supernatural beings.

Personally, I really want to get those 2 books as they seem quite interesting and they don't whitewash the info, it comes from an anthropological/scholarly perspective rather than a New Age perspective.

Anyway, what are your thoughts, do you think shamanism has been whitewashed and made into something it's not and that the dark side of shamanism has been supressed and forgotten (not good, IMO, as anything that's repressed will come out eventually)?.

Also, if you've read those books, would you recommend them?.

Anyway, thanks for any replies, as I'd really love to hear your thoughts.


Thanks for the book titles! I am always looking for more good reading material.

Thanks again! :)

[David19]

Thanks for the book titles! I am always looking for more good reading material.

Thanks again! :)

Glad you liked them :).

[David19]

I haven't read either of those, though they're on my wish list. However, I'd definitely agree that shamanism has become whitewashed. Combat magic is one area; rival shamans were known to attack each other and each other's communities. However, people also forget that in many cultures hunting magic was important, and animal sacrifice was practices--one Siberian tribe had a shamanic ritual that involved sacrificing a horse by painfully breaking its back.

People also forget that shamanism is dangerous--it can drive you crazy, cause spiritual (and some would also say physical) ailments, and Kaldera makes a good point on refusing the call. Many shamans became shamans through serious illnesses. ANd the shaman is intimately linked to death, as the psychopomp.

That's what I've heard, also, if you've read or spoken with Raven Kaldera, he says in one of his articles that he is now a living dead man, he can't refuse to be a shaman in serve to his Goddess, Hel (I'm assuming if does try and refuse, he'll die or Hel will turn his motor off or something?).

I didn't really hear about the combat magic associated with shamans until I heard the concept mentioned in the descriptions of those 2 books, so I think that shows that it has kind of become whitewashed.

BTW, it's good to know that you want to get those books too, I'll take that as meaning they are good :).

Also, just wanted to ask, but would you recommend 'Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy' by Mircea Eliade (http://www.amazon.com/Shamanism-Archaic-Techniques-Ecstasy-Bollingen/dp/0691119422)?, I've heard many people saying his work is great, and it seems quite cool from the amazon.com description, but is it good or would you recommend it?.

Thanks :).

[Labrynth]

Thank you for the links and the post, his story was quite an intense read! I have been looking into Shamanism a bit as of late so i very much appreciate it. I also recently watched a documentary "Shaman - Other Worlds - Ayahuasca Documentary" which was about the plant/drink the shaman gives them, and there was also scientific analysis done on it, i thought it was an interesting watch.

[David19]

Thank you for the links and the post, his story was quite an intense read! I have been looking into Shamanism a bit as of late so i very much appreciate it. I also recently watched a documentary "Shaman - Other Worlds - Ayahuasca Documentary" which was about the plant/drink the shaman gives them, and there was also scientific analysis done on it, i thought it was an interesting watch.

Thanks for the documentary recommendation, I might see if it's on Youtube, shamanism is quite interesting.

[Lupabitch]

Eliade's work is *excellent*. Despite it being over a half a century old, it's still an important text on the topic of shamanism; it should be supplemented by newer works, but it still maintains much of its integrity. Do be aware that it's several hundred pages of academic writing. The foreword is scary as hell, but once you get past it and into the actual meat of the book, it's a good read (though dense). Eliade also focuses heavily on Siberian shamanism and seems to hold it up as the standard by which all other shamanisms can be gauged, though that perspective has been challenged as being too limiting. It took me about two weeks to get through it, and I'm a pretty stubborn reader--I didn't read anything else the whole time. But it's worth slogging through.

I also highly recommend Piers Vitebsky's "The Shaman" (also titled "Shamanism", depending on edition). It's an easier read, newer, and takes a broader approach. It's one of my primary texts for researching traditional shamanism.

[Lupabitch]

I also think to a degree the inclusion of things brough forth from other Pagan or Neo-Pagan belief systems has masked the darker facet of the Shamanic path. Some people have told me the "Skin Walkers" of Navajo origination are examples of the darker facet of a shamanic type working.

Skinwalkers are witches in the Navajo tradition. In that culture, "witch" means something very different from what it means to neopagans; it's closer to the medieval European concept of someone who works maleficium on innocent people. Witches and shamans are very different things in this case.

A skinwalker is someone who works malicious magic and often obtains the ability through breaking a serious cultural taboo. There isn't the initiatory journey of the shaman or the travelling between worlds or mediumship. Rather, like the medieval concept of the witch, the skinwalker changes shape as part of hir way of causing harm to others in the community.

I can see it being mistaken for shamanism, and it may be a corruption thereof.

[David19]

Eliade's work is *excellent*. Despite it being over a half a century old, it's still an important text on the topic of shamanism; it should be supplemented by newer works, but it still maintains much of its integrity. Do be aware that it's several hundred pages of academic writing. The foreword is scary as hell, but once you get past it and into the actual meat of the book, it's a good read (though dense). Eliade also focuses heavily on Siberian shamanism and seems to hold it up as the standard by which all other shamanisms can be gauged, though that perspective has been challenged as being too limiting. It took me about two weeks to get through it, and I'm a pretty stubborn reader--I didn't read anything else the whole time. But it's worth slogging through.

I also highly recommend Piers Vitebsky's "The Shaman" (also titled "Shamanism", depending on edition). It's an easier read, newer, and takes a broader approach. It's one of my primary texts for researching traditional shamanism.

Thanks for that and the other recommendation, I might try and see if I can order Eliade's book at one of my local shops.

[David19]

Skinwalkers are witches in the Navajo tradition. In that culture, "witch" means something very different from what it means to neopagans; it's closer to the medieval European concept of someone who works maleficium on innocent people. Witches and shamans are very different things in this case.

A skinwalker is someone who works malicious magic and often obtains the ability through breaking a serious cultural taboo. There isn't the initiatory journey of the shaman or the travelling between worlds or mediumship. Rather, like the medieval concept of the witch, the skinwalker changes shape as part of hir way of causing harm to others in the community.

I can see it being mistaken for shamanism, and it may be a corruption thereof.

That's actually really interesting, and I've heard of Skinwalkers before, what I heard was, like you said, they are malevonent witches, not in the modern Pagan sense, but witches who want to cause harm (I'm not too sure if they're considered human or some type of supernatural being or a mixture of the 2?, I know that in Aztec times and modern Mexican folklore, a witch is more a being that comes from the underworld and can pass for human, but isn't, as a result of not being human, they can do a few extra things humans can't and have a few more abilities, if I'm remembering right anyway, I'm not sure if that's similar to the Native American Skinwalker or what?).

[Lupabitch]

That's actually really interesting, and I've heard of Skinwalkers before, what I heard was, like you said, they are malevonent witches, not in the modern Pagan sense, but witches who want to cause harm (I'm not too sure if they're considered human or some type of supernatural being or a mixture of the 2?, I know that in Aztec times and modern Mexican folklore, a witch is more a being that comes from the underworld and can pass for human, but isn't, as a result of not being human, they can do a few extra things humans can't and have a few more abilities, if I'm remembering right anyway, I'm not sure if that's similar to the Native American Skinwalker or what?).

I believe skinwalkers are considered to be human by birth, just "corrupted" by 'evil" magic.

[David19]

I believe skinwalkers are considered to be human by birth, just "corrupted" by 'evil" magic.

Thanks for the info :).

[Shosha]

I think that the "dark side" of shamanism is hidden so as not to scare the crap out of beginners. However, I think it should be out there with the rest of it to sortout the Shamans-to-come and the dabblers who might really get themselves or someone else hurt.

There's "light and dark" to everything. The balance is imperative.

[David19]

I think that the "dark side" of shamanism is hidden so as not to scare the crap out of beginners. However, I think it should be out there with the rest of it to sortout the Shamans-to-come and the dabblers who might really get themselves or someone else hurt.

There's "light and dark" to everything. The balance is imperative.

Thanks, and good post and info, and I agree with you, although I'm not a shaman, though.

[Garm]

It sounds a lot like Raven's experiences with Hel were being driven a great deal by his internal personality conflicts

I would guess she is standing in for his "true will" in the thelemic sense of the word, sanctifying the road he would have to take any way

My own experience of her is that she is not nearly so much of a bitch queen

[WolfWhoSings]

From my personal perspective, of course it has a darker side. How much you want to come into contact with it is up to you. As I've posted before, the natural world is, to most human eyes, a rather disturbing place in general. Infanticide, war, consuming of another being for sustenance... (Not that I'm advocating any of that ;) )

I do believe in karmic balance though. For me, if I were to decide to work someone over using my training, I would expect some fallout. I don't want to be bothered with the fallout, so I don't do it. I don't consider death, in and of itself, to be a "dark" thing in the sense of "bad," but I do find myself often being the first called when a loved one dies and having to deal with the loss of those left behind.

Another aspect might be respecting the forces you're dealing with. As I was taught, a sacred fire is something you don't turn your back on while it burns, or douse with water. To do so is to insult the fire, and I've heard of people experiencing falling tree limbs and the like when they've made that mistake.

In the old traditions though, yes, to my knowledge there were/are some rather dark practices as described above. I think that's true of nearly all traditions though.