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David19
December 22nd, 2007, 03:55 PM
I just came across this article by "Robin Artisson"/Tony, and am quite frankly, really pissed off at it, it's full of fascism against Islam, and shows that even Pagans can be assholes.

He starts off by using the example of a girl killed for not wearing the hijab, and then uses it to lauch an attack on all Muslims and Islam in its entirety.

Here's the article (http://cauldronborn.blogspot.com/):


And yet, they flock to our shores, to our cities, to our beautiful and green lands, where they can live with their children in peace, unconcerned about carbombs blowing up constantly, unconcerned about grinding poverty, and with their rights protected in ways that they were never protected in whatever place they left behind. This good world in Europe and North America- one of peace, protection, and prosperity, is one that WE have made through our values, our love of freedom, and our hard work, and while enjoying the fruits of it, these visitors simultaneously attack our culture as "decadent" or "the Great Satan".

And worst of all, they drag their demented religious ideals here.


I've heard all the apologetics. I wish I had a quarter for every dazed-looking person who's repeated the tired mantra to me: "It's not Islam... Islam is a peaceful religion... it's just those bad people who take it wrong..." or better yet "It's not Islam... it's just cultural realities that were around long before Islam..."

Sure. I reject these nonsensical apologetics, which do nothing but protect the flawed status-quo, just as those apologeticists were programmed to do. And I especially reject, with great disgust, those Westerners who have succumbed to the scourge of idiocy that we call "political correctness" and who defend Islam despite the fact that they've never had to live under the tyrannical rule of Shari'a law or these bastard theocratic misogynists.

Islam is not "okay". It is an absolutist faith that would force every single person on the planet to become Muslim if it could get away with it. And when I say "Islam", I mean the people who believe in it, and practice it, and promulgate it, because THAT is where a religion is found. A religion is not a mysterious "free floating" abstract thing that exists apart from people. Religion is inseparable from the people who believe in it and keep it alive

I've just highlighted some of his BS. Now I'm making excuses for the father who killed the girl, he's an idiot, and I have no doubt he'll have to answer to his God for his crimes. But to use this attack on an innocent girl as an excuse to launch his racist attack on all Muslims and Islam is just wrong, IMO.

He seems to be saying Europe and North America are "the light of civilization", I'd love to tell "Robin"/Tony that "no offence, but you're culture was built on the backs of slavery, massacre, and torture".

He doesn't seem to understand that there are Muslims who are critical of the fundamentalists, who are working to change Islam (look at the workds of Irshad Manji (http://www.irshadmanji.com/), etc).

It's funny, elsewhere on the site, he gives the impression that he's not racist, or that the Gods (he says he's a Heathen, although that's up for some debate) don't choose people based on "race" or skin colour (and yet he links to the Asatru Folk Assembly, which claims just the opposite, I think).

He just seems to be saying that America and European societies are the "best" and other cultures should strive to be like them. IMO, I think that's nothing more than cultural and religious imperialism.

I also don't like, near the end of the article, he says this:


I think that she will rest well in the Halls of the Lady of the Vanir. She stood up, in her small way, against a tide that was much, much larger than her or her ignorant father. And these small efforts matter, even if they don't seem to. I would have welcomed this girl into my own town, and I regret her loss. Her father- along with any woman or girl murdering jackass in this world- has offended the Disir, the feminine spirits that protect all families, especially their female members, and his fate will be dark because of it.

Even though she was a Muslim, just 'cause she was liberal and strong enough not to wear the hijab 'cause a man (her father) said so, doesn't make her less of a Muslim, and now "Robin"/Tony is saying she'll go to Freya's hall (I'm guessing Freya, as she's the only Vanic Goddess I know who was also called the Lady (seeing that her name meant Lady)) and that the Disir will make the father pay. To me, this is religious imperialism, and I'm going to quote an statement from the Asatru Folk Alliance, which I like:


To argue that all humans are descended of Ask and Embla is to say that the myths of every other native culture are wrong, and that only ours is right. From the Australian Outback to the depths of Africa, groups have their own explanations for how they came to be. It is the
height of arrogance to assume that our stories apply to them, and that the sacred tales of their own people are false. Unless we assume that their lore is inferior and inaccurate, we are forced to the logical conclusion that each group is right - so long as it speaks to its own people, and no other.

Now, the article was actually saying why the Norse "first humans" myth shouldn't be taken universally, but I think it can be used here, as it's saying unless you're saying all other religions are wrong and the Norse religion and Gods are the only real ones, you shouldn't apply everything in the Heathen religion universally (i.e. not everyone goes to the Norse afterlife, unless you're stating all religions have got the conceptions of the afterlife wrong, etc).

The Disir statement doesn't so much bother me, as it could be argued that the female ancestors of this girl will make the father pay (as everyone has ancestors and, in pretty much every religion, including Abrahamic ones, the dead are considered quite powerful), although I wouldn't call them Disir, but that's just a small criticism.

He seems to basically want to say "Muslims are evil, Islam is evil, lets stop them all coming into our country and expell the ones who are already here", I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere in his house, he has a KKK outfit.

I also love the irony of the article, he says Islam and Muslims are basically "barbaric" and "backwards" and have no morals, and "Robin"/Tony, when he's hardly the poster child to say what's "acceptable", while his wife was pregnant, he was apparantly cheating on her with a deranged follower of his (while also continuing to take this followers money), and apparantly, it's not the first time he cheated, while Joseph Wilson, founder of the 1734 Tradition (http://1734.com/index.shtml) and student of Robert Cochrane, was dying of cancer, "Robin"/Tony sent "curses"/insults to his list or e-mail 'cause he felt Joseph was ignoring him, how anyone could do that to someone dying of cancer is beyond me and, from what I hear, a lot of his work is actually plagarized from other sources and he's apparantly be sued or in the process of being sued for this reason (also, he tried to show that he was in the same league and Nigel Jackson or Paul Huson, and both have dismissed him as a loon). How anyone like that can say another group is "immoral" is beyond me.

BTW, even though the site is technically an Heathen site, and he says he's a Heathen, he also considers himself a Traditional Witch (Traditional Witchcraft is a topic in itself to describe, but it basically refers to Robert Cochrane-derived traditions and witchcraft practices that take their inspiration from pre-Christian practices and folklore). Also, he has a site called Pendragon (http://pendragon343.com/), which is quite a fluffy Wiccan site, and, if I'm remembering rightly, recommends and admires SRW on that site (it's also been update rather recently, so it shows he may not entirely be a Heathen). You can also find posts of his where he's a Druid, a Hellenic recon, a Satanist, a Gnostic Christian, etc (I've also been told he's been trolling the Buddhist community and has also referred to himself as "king of all Druids").

Anyway, I'd really like your thoughts on the article, or your opinion of "Robin"/Tony from the site (also, see his other sites: here (http://www.robinartisson.com/cran.htm),here (http://www.robinartisson.com/mera/enter.html) and his Druid site (http://www.robinartisson.com/llysdon/index.html)).

Thanks.

FiresSong
December 22nd, 2007, 04:12 PM
While I share his disgust with the practices of some Muslims, I don't really agree with the majority of this article. He does seem to make sweeping generalizations and pull up some pretty bogus facts about Muslims. There are plenty who adhere to this culture when they move here and some who don't. Those that believe they are above the laws of America and can commit those atrocities in this country will -hopefully, as occasionally they manage to scrounge up a dumbass jury- answer for what they do.

It just goes to show that every religion has its people who hate.

David19
December 22nd, 2007, 05:51 PM
While I share his disgust with the practices of some Muslims, I don't really agree with the majority of this article. He does seem to make sweeping generalizations and pull up some pretty bogus facts about Muslims. There are plenty who adhere to this culture when they move here and some who don't. Those that believe they are above the laws of America and can commit those atrocities in this country will -hopefully, as occasionally they manage to scrounge up a dumbass jury- answer for what they do.

It just goes to show that every religion has its people who hate.

True, I also am disgusted by the fundamentalists in Islam and any religion really, but I think the guy is just an idiot and uses it as an excuse to spread his racism.

Russ
December 22nd, 2007, 08:39 PM
I don't really see any racism in this article. He is talking about Islam and Muslim civilization in general I think. An spare the talks on generalities when you are speaking of a group of people you can only speak in general.

You must speak of the rule. Not the exceptions. There are days I have to wonder if the generalization on Muslims isn't true and the nice ones I have meet are the exceptions...

***

Disclaimer: I do not agree with this article. Just playing devils advocate.

Brigid Rowan
December 22nd, 2007, 09:01 PM
Im going to plead ignorance , and ask some questions, because Im not Muslim, and dont want to make assumptions.

As far as honor killings, and suicide bombs and other terrible acts of violence...are these from holy books, taught and written down? Or are they inspired by men that have interpretted holy writings and added in the bloodthirstiness?

Are Islam in the Middle East versus the West similer in terms of values? I see documentaries and articles about the middle east, and it DOES seem to have a high percentage of violence in the culture...kids brandishing weapons, young men shouting death to infidels, etc..Is that blown out of proportion, or is that a societal norm?

When it all comes down to it, is this a religion of violence and mayhem, with its objective being to convert or kill non-muslims...or is it filled with more than its fair share of nutcases and extremists? Im sure there are good muslims, there are good and bad in every religion. But do they have an agenda of hate? Who is the exception in Islam...the rationalists or the extreme believers?

It rather reminds me in some ways of the bloody ideals of the dark ages: with religion above humanity, fundimentalism over freedom.

I hope I haven't offended others, Im truely not a scholar of middle east religion, so I'd love some more info and ideas and opinions.

Rick
December 23rd, 2007, 02:23 AM
David, your a nice guy, with a big heart, but here's the reality of it:

You have the right to disagree with whoever you like (although you wouldn't under an Islamic regime). The article's author has the right to say what he wants, even to be racist if he wants. No one can force anyone to be politically correct. No one has the right "to not have their feelings hurt."

If it offends you, then don't read it, or look at it, or listen to it.

And when the day comes when you're bein' forced to bow to Mecca 5 times a day or have your head cut off with a dull knife, don't whine about it, 'cuz people are trying to sound the alarm, whether you or anyone else like the message or not.

Meadhbh
December 23rd, 2007, 03:58 AM
Of course its a horrible thing to write. But you have to remember that there are people who are going to write or say things like that and sadly they seem to be the people, people pay attention to.

LostSheep
December 23rd, 2007, 04:46 AM
Well, people all have their own opinions, don't they? That's just one individual's personal opinion, and indeed, as you say,
even Pagans can be assholes .

Zephyrstorm
December 23rd, 2007, 07:42 AM
re: generalities of the Islamic world -

There are Christian nations that are quite violent (largely in Sub-Saharan Africa and South America). No religion has ever had the ability to claim that they have not had unrest of the sort that we see on the news in the Middle East.

Its not the religion that is causing the violence, at least not by itself. It is a blend of enculturation, poverty, governmental corruption, tribalism and a half-dozen other socio-economic issues. It doesn't matter if the rhetoric of the reactionary forces coach their vision of what is wrong in religious terms or not - if you can stabilize the societal problems the violence will decrease.

and FYI, when European Christians were hunting heretics in their own back yard, the Islamic world was one of wealth, stability and tolerance.

Philosophia
December 23rd, 2007, 08:13 AM
IMO, Robin Artisson hates anything that doesn't fit into his definition of what Paganism is. This includes (and not limited to); Islam, Christianity, New-ager's, etc.. He does have some knowledgeable articles but they are obscured by his trollish behavior, rants, and misinformed opinions (which are so apparent in that article).


As far as honor killings, and suicide bombs and other terrible acts of violence...are these from holy books, taught and written down? Or are they inspired by men that have interpretted holy writings and added in the bloodthirstiness?

Bolded is correct.


Are Islam in the Middle East versus the West similer in terms of values?

Depends on where you go to. In Saudi Arabia and some other countries, human rights abuses are high. In others, not so.


I see documentaries and articles about the middle east, and it DOES seem to have a high percentage of violence in the culture...kids brandishing weapons, young men shouting death to infidels, etc..Is that blown out of proportion, or is that a societal norm?

IMO, its blown out of proportion.


When it all comes down to it, is this a religion of violence and mayhem, with its objective being to convert or kill non-muslims...or is it filled with more than its fair share of nutcases and extremists? Im sure there are good muslims, there are good and bad in every religion. But do they have an agenda of hate? Who is the exception in Islam...the rationalists or the extreme believers?

Like any religion in this world, there are always going to be extremists. Unfortunately, the attention seems to be always on them.

It rather reminds me in some ways of the bloody ideals of the dark ages: with religion above humanity, fundimentalism over freedom.

I'm not a scholar on this so I'm only going by what I've read and learnt from books and muslims themselves.

David19
December 23rd, 2007, 08:58 AM
IMO, Robin Artisson hates anything that doesn't fit into his definition of what Paganism is. This includes (and not limited to); Islam, Christianity, New-ager's, etc.. He does have some knowledgeable articles but they are obscured by his trollish behavior, rants, and misinformed opinions (which are so apparent in that article).

That's true, you can find live journals where he's basically gone off on a raving rant when the people there get sick of him plugging his books at every opportunity.

I should no better than to pay attention to him, 'cause really, that's what he wants, a reaction.

Also, while there's some good stuff of his on his sites, I'd say there only good 'cause he either got that info from someone who's knowledgable on the topic or he plagarized it from somewhere.

Lupabitch
December 23rd, 2007, 05:17 PM
Every religion has its fundamentalists, its stubborn dogmatists, and it's perfectly nice people who simply don't know any better.

Religion is a tool; it is up to the individual to determine how to use it on an everyday basis. Unfortunately, a lot of people like to use the emotional aspects of religion to control each other. Belief is very emotionally charged, and it's a vulnerable area for people; therefore it's easy for us to be manipulated by those in power. A good example comes from this very thread:

And when the day comes when you're bein' forced to bow to Mecca 5 times a day or have your head cut off with a dull knife, don't whine about it, 'cuz people are trying to sound the alarm, whether you or anyone else like the message or not.

This is nothing but a perpetuation of a fear-based meme, an unhealthy dose of paranoia foisted on a populace that doesn't want to do the research to find out just how complex the situation really is. Most Americans have never been to the Middle East, unless it's to go to war, and probably don't have a single friend who is a dedicated follower of Islam. Most Americans connect Islam to terrorists thanks to the media. Never mind that there are actual human beings involved; it's easier to justify bigotry when you don't think of Them as humans, but only as single-minded monsters out to destroy all that is Good and Pure.

You have a situation that has literally centuries of propaganda behind it. It's not religiously motivated; it's politically and power-hungry in nature. Religion is just a convenient way to get people's Us vs. Them kneejerk reactions riled up.

Something to keep in mind when dealing with fear....from Frank Herbert's Dune:

I must not fear.Fear is the mind-killer.Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.Only I will remain.

Only by consciously approaching a situation and acknowledging the things that scare us can we take control of our reactions, and then act accordingly. And we all fall prey to fear sometimes; it's a very deep form of conditioning. But that doesn't mean we can't fight it anyway.

Just my two cents.

Whitewolf
December 24th, 2007, 06:33 PM
That guy sounds like an a$*hat to me. He makes me sick.

Rick
December 25th, 2007, 12:26 AM
And when the day comes when you're bein' forced to bow to Mecca 5 times a day or have your head cut off with a dull knife, don't whine about it, 'cuz people are trying to sound the alarm, whether you or anyone else like the message or not.

This is nothing but a perpetuation of a fear-based meme, an unhealthy dose of paranoia foisted on a populace that doesn't want to do the research to find out just how complex the situation really is. Most Americans have never been to the Middle East, unless it's to go to war, and probably don't have a single friend who is a dedicated follower of Islam. Most Americans connect Islam to terrorists thanks to the media. Never mind that there are actual human beings involved; it's easier to justify bigotry when you don't think of Them as humans, but only as single-minded monsters out to destroy all that is Good and Pure.

Hardly a perpetuation of a fear-based anything; that's a tool of the radical left, not a red-neck Oklahoma farm boy.

BTW, you're right, I don't have any Muslim friends. I have, however, known many Muslims (some dedicated, some not so much). They were, each & every one, patently anti-American, even the one that had escaped Iran a step ahead of the Ayatollah's posse.

happynomad
December 25th, 2007, 08:22 AM
I know lots of Muslims. I have many Muslim friends, in fact, I expect two Muslims to arrive here shortly. They have gifts to unwrap under my tree.

While it's true there are un American Muslims, I also know un American Americans. I've lived and worked in the Middle East, and speak enough Arabic to get by.

This is a free country, and you can believe whatever you like, and you can say pretty much whatever you want.

But maybe your right, and the subject of the original post is correct as well. After all, we all know pagans are fantasist airheads who worship the devil at Halloween. Thta's what the media says, and the media would not ever play up negative aspects of any given group just for market ratings.

Honest, complete reporting that informs on all sides of an issue are their meat and drink. We all know this to be true, because they tell us so.

Right?

-Nomad

Greybird
December 25th, 2007, 09:39 AM
If the infamous anthropologist from Mars were to pop in and get his information from the same sources we do (media), he'd see Islam in exactly that way.

He'd also see that Christians consist entirely of people scamming money from the masses and picketing funerals.

He'd also see that pagans are all either goths or middle-aged hippy women with too much makeup who only worship in black dresses in cemeteries equipped with fog machines.

Meirya
December 26th, 2007, 03:18 PM
Ugh, RA of the Thousand Names. (Seriously. He even supposedly died once, but oh look, he's back! And he's had so many different screennames, yet it's so easy to figure out who he is, since his writing style and angle of attack never varies...)

Ignoring whatever he writes is usually the best policy; it makes your head hurt less from the poorly reasoned rhetoric, and you don't have to get aggravated at his pagan fundamentalism. (Fundies are fundies, whether they worship the Goddess or the God!)

Amusingly enough, snark of anything RA has been forbidden on dot_pagan_snark over on LiveJournal, because it's always the same thing over and over again, and he's too easy to snark and it's been done so many times.

Also, just a warning, but he has this tendency of appearing wherever he's criticized in order to defend himself (with or without a dozen sockpuppets). Speak his name, and he shall appear! Especially if you speak it critically. Hopefully that won't happen here. ;)

David19
December 26th, 2007, 07:30 PM
Ugh, RA of the Thousand Names. (Seriously. He even supposedly died once, but oh look, he's back! And he's had so many different screennames, yet it's so easy to figure out who he is, since his writing style and angle of attack never varies...)

Ignoring whatever he writes is usually the best policy; it makes your head hurt less from the poorly reasoned rhetoric, and you don't have to get aggravated at his pagan fundamentalism. (Fundies are fundies, whether they worship the Goddess or the God!)

Amusingly enough, snark of anything RA has been forbidden on dot_pagan_snark over on LiveJournal, because it's always the same thing over and over again, and he's too easy to snark and it's been done so many times.

Also, just a warning, but he has this tendency of appearing wherever he's criticized in order to defend himself (with or without a dozen sockpuppets). Speak his name, and he shall appear! Especially if you speak it critically. Hopefully that won't happen here. ;)

Normally, I do try and ignore his stuff, it's just certain of his articles really annoy me, like the one I posted.

Hopefully, he won't come here, but then, even if he does, he'll most likely leave in a huff that not many people are interested in his books or he'll be banned like he has from so many other Pagan forums.

Silverfire Darkmoon
December 30th, 2007, 11:30 PM
Robin Artisson is an asshat, plain and simple. There's even an entire Encyclopedia Dramatica page about him.

Link:
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Son_of_art
Not safe for work, the weak-hearted, or those with no sense of humour or a taste for sarcasm.

Russ
January 2nd, 2008, 06:38 AM
I may have had my problems with Robin but honestly he's not that bad a guy. The Pagan community could use more like him.

Well maybe minus his Crowley like flavor for getting his work out there lol

Seriously that's who he reminds me of. Aliester Crowley and how he always got his name out by ticking people off. :hehehehe:

Fiamma
January 2nd, 2008, 07:50 AM
Amusingly enough, snark of anything RA has been forbidden on dot_pagan_snark over on LiveJournal, because it's always the same thing over and over again, and he's too easy to snark and it's been done so many times.


Heh...I didn't realize that he was forbidden on DPS....

I've left several LJ communities because they were so low on activity, other than RA promoting himself.