A couple of questions regarding Paganism and Christianity for you pagan folk.

[GabrielWithoutWings]

I was doing that thinking thing and what popped into my head was a rather curious little idea. Follow me here.

What if Christianity is the perfect synthesis between polytheistic paganism and Middle Eastern monotheistic leaning desert religions?

People always harp about Christianity stealing from this tradition or stealing from that tradition. What if this is actually part of "God's plan (ugh, I can't believe I just wrote that)? What if the Christian God simply said, "Oh, this is what they believe or what they will believe. All right, I can do it one step better."

Am I making sense here?

Christianity has Middle Eastern Judaic roots because:
It is the continuation of the tradition of Adam and Eve
It is the continuation of the world after the World Cataclysm (Great Flood)
It is the continuation of the faith of Abram of Ur
It is the continuation and fulfillment of the law of Moses
The Savior of the religion, Christ Jesus, was said to be predicted by Old Testament prophecies
The religion honors the patriarchs and prophets as forerunnersChristianity has Middle Eastern Mazdan roots because:
It has a concept of God of spirit and light versus a god of matter and temptation
It has a concept of a savior (Saoshyant) who will return and vanquish evil
It has the concept of an afterlife which could be either good or bad
Three Magi came bearing giftsChristianity has Middle Eastern polytheistic roots because:
It follows the tradition of a Great Flood with a man who built an ark (Noah/Utnapishtim) in the manner of Babylonia
It follows the tradition of having the mother goddess bring petitions before the God on His Throne to intercede on the behalf of worshippers in the manner of Asherah and El Elyon of Canaan
YHVH the Elohim has a priest named Melchizedek who it is stated is a priest of God Most High (El Elyon) whom the savior Christ Jesus is a priest in the order of
The name of the mother goddesses both correspond to the ocean, Asherah being the Lady of the Waves and Mary (Miriam) meaning Ocean
The fact that many of the stories in the Old Testament correspond to many other documents in other societies (King Kheret and Job, for example)Christianity has other polytheistic roots because:


The Savior is said to have been born of a virgin
The Savior impregnates his mother and becomes his own Father
The Savior lies dead for three days
The Savior descends to the Underworld
The Savior emerges from a tomb/womb born anew having defeated death
The God is one, yet of at least three persons, which implies monotheism with a polytheistic bend
The Savior's resurrection is celebrated in the spring when everything becomes reborn, thus being in line with the dying-and-rising vegetation gods
The Savior was hung on a tree and achieved great power through this self-sacrifice

Christianity is paradoxical and mysterious because:
The god is transcendent and separate from this world, yet chooses to incarnate in the body of a fallen/lesser creature so that humans might emulate him, in the manner of Eastern gods such as Krishna
The god is three known persons of one essence
The savior/god was hung on a tree which only cursed men are to be hanged onMy point has been made. So, my first question is thus:

Is it possible that the Christian god new what to emulate and how to unfold his plan in such a way to encompass not only monotheism but also polytheism?

My second question is thus:

If you are a pagan and not a Christian, why exactly are you a pagan and not a Christian?

I would imagine it's from either A) Something overly pleasing that is not found in Christianity, or B) Something overly unpleasant that one wants to avoid in the Christian belief system.

You can make your answers as long or as short as you want.

[Fiamma]

My point has been made. So, my first question is thus:

Is it possible that the Christian god new what to emulate and how to unfold his plan in such a way to encompass not only monotheism but also polytheism?

Maybe? I dunno. There are non-trinitarian denominations of Christianity too. Where do they fall into your ideas?



My second question is thus:

If you are a pagan and not a Christian, why exactly are you a pagan and not a Christian?

I would imagine it's from either A) Something overly pleasing that is not found in Christianity, or B) Something overly unpleasant that one wants to avoid in the Christian belief system.

So...you think that everyone who is pagan is such for some reason that hinges around either a deficiency or an undesirable presence within Christianity?

I wanted to be Christian. I tried to believe it for a very long time. It was simply never real to me so I gave up trying after seven or eight years. I was kinda agnostic for a while. I wanted to be atheist, but that never worked out.

I eventually got out of my religion all that I never got out of Christianity, but one did not hinge on the other. I left Christianity wanting to leave religion altogether. (I had no ill feelings towards Christianity, I could simply never muster the belief.)

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Maybe? I dunno. There are non-trinitarian denominations of Christianity too. Where do they fall into your ideas?

We're speaking of strictly orthodox Nicene Christianity. We can do denomination hopping all day long, but I think I'd like to hold off on that just for this post.


So...you think that everyone who is pagan is such for some reason that hinges around either a deficiency or an undesirable presence within Christianity?Sure, but you can do that with any other religion that you don't ascribe to. We're simply talking Christianity in this post.

I am not a Muslim. Not because there is something that agnosticism has that Islam doesn't. It's more of the fact that Islam has some things that I find rather unpleasant.


I wanted to be Christian. I tried to believe it for a very long time. It was simply never real to me so I gave up trying after seven or eight years. I was kinda agnostic for a while. I wanted to be atheist, but that never worked out.

I eventually got out of my religion all that I never got out of Christianity, but one did not hinge on the other. I left Christianity wanting to leave religion altogether. (I had no ill feelings towards Christianity, I could simply never muster the belief.)Thank you for your reply.

[LostSheep]

I'm not going to say that it couldn't fit into a polytheistic worldview, but I'd personally say that it would be easier to fit into a pantheistic/panentheistic view (probably the latter). I was struggling with the question myself, since I couldn't really get on with the idea of the monotheistic biblical (Old Testament in particular) God, but since I started thinking in terms of a panentheistic idea of God it seemed to fall into place. I suppose how well you could fit Christian principles in with polytheism could depend on how you look at polytheism - if you take the way that all gods are manifestations of the one God, then I probably think you could, but I tend more towards the panentheistic way of looking at it.

[aranarose]

The only point you've really made is that Christianity is a synthesis of many other religions traditions, not that it is a perfect synthesis of those traditions.

I am not a Christian because Christianity makes no sense to me. Perhaps if it was claiming to be a perfect synthesis of other traditions, or claimed to be working toward being that, I could see it. But Christianity, in nearly all its forms, claims to be completely independent of other religious traditions, despite the evidence, and claims to be above all traditions and the only true way to achieve union with the divine. Except that according to Christianity, you never do achieve true union, just close proximity.

[Lunacie]

The only point you've really made is that Christianity is a synthesis of many other religions traditions, not that it is a perfect synthesis of those traditions.

I am not a Christian because Christianity makes no sense to me. Perhaps if it was claiming to be a perfect synthesis of other traditions, or claimed to be working toward being that, I could see it. But Christianity, in nearly all its forms, claims to be completely independent of other religious traditions, despite the evidence, and claims to be above all traditions and the only true way to achieve union with the divine. Except that according to Christianity, you never do achieve true union, just close proximity.

Wow, almost exactly what I was thinking. Thanks for saving me the effort of composing my own post. :smileroll

[AldegeanK]

People always harp about Christianity stealing from this tradition or stealing from that tradition. What if this is actually part of "God's plan (ugh, I can't believe I just wrote that)? What if the Christian God simply said, "Oh, this is what they believe or what they will believe. All right, I can do it one step better."

My point has been made. So, my first question is thus:

Is it possible that the Christian god new what to emulate and how to unfold his plan in such a way to encompass not only monotheism but also polytheism?


I do like your train of thought with this post, as it is something that I have thought about many times myself, how Christianity tries to pull together many different religious themes and attitudes from multiple precursors. My problem with your argument, however, deals more with your disregard for human involvement in religious evolution. (Yes, I just used those two words in conjunction with one another.)

If you're going to talk about the development of Christianity, you can't leave it all to a "supreme being", as the actions of man must also play factor into its development. If you look at religious development throughout history (cite sources of Mircea Eliade, Marija Gimbutas and others) religion has evolved along with community needs. From anamist roots with the early homo erectus to polytheistic pastoralists and agrarians, and ending with today's single-ruled monotheistic, industrial societies you can follow a somewhat regimented (with scattered exceptions) progression of religious conversion.

The argument could of course be used that the "supreme power" directed this evolution, but since it cannot be proven, or disproven, its less likely to hold as a validity. I don't want to completely discredit spiritual involvement, as I believe that would be unfair in a "religious" discussion, but I do believe that we need to step back from being completely immersed in the intagible, and look at the human factors as well.




My second question is thus:

If you are a pagan and not a Christian, why exactly are you a pagan and not a Christian?

I would imagine it's from either A) Something overly pleasing that is not found in Christianity, or B) Something overly unpleasant that one wants to avoid in the Christian belief system.


I have to agree with several others about the nature of this question. When I first read it, I went directly to a defensive mode being upset at the train of thought that I decided against Christianity simply because of unplesentness within its boundaries.

The more I thought about it however, I agree that we do, for the most part choose religous sects based on a fondness or avoidance. This should not, however be confused with selecting an overall religion. Those that only know of Christianity will most certainly have Christian viewpoints, as that is all they know, however how those Christian beliefs play out (Baptist, Methodist, etc.) is purely dependant on what we "feel" is right.

Personally, in my 31 years, I've been through a myriad of religous experiences through several different traditions, Christian, Muslim, and Pagan. I consider myself to be as close to an anamist as possible in this modern world, with a swing towards polytheism. I enjoy paganism, as I find it much less restricting on myself as a human, and my short human experience in this lifetime that I am granted. It doesn't blame, or guilt me any more than I guilt myself. There is no supreme ruler saying "what you are doing is bad". Bad is left for me to decide, as I am in control of my destiny, and the turning of the Karmic Wheel.

With all orgainized religion, in some form or fashion, comes religious fanaticism, and this is something that I detest. I prefer to set my own rules, follow my own path, and receive direction from my education, and spiritual totems to following blind a path in which I cannot muster enough faith.

[Greybird]

If you are a pagan and not a Christian, why exactly are you a pagan and not a Christian?

I am not Christian because I don't accept the idea that Christ is a savior. I do not believe that humanity needs a savior, because I reject the idea that humanity is inherently flawed and that our existence is something to be saved from. That's why I'm not Christian, not why I'm pagan. I'm pagan because my personal experiences in the world have given me a group of ideas and beliefs concerning how the universe works. My society defines that particular group of beliefs with the label 'pagan'. Were there no Christianity and no labels, I'd still hold the ideas that I hold. The label is just a convenience for everyone else.

As an aside, can anyone please list those religions that haven't borrowed from the religions of the predecessors, subjects, or neighbors?

[LostSheep]

I am not Christian because I don't accept the idea that Christ is a savior. I do not believe that humanity needs a savior, because I reject the idea that humanity is inherently flawed and that our existence is something to be saved from.
Some of the early Christian "heretics" thought much the same thing. Even some of the not quite so "heretical" versions, like Celtic Christianity, for instance, don't really go very heavy on the "fallenness" of humanity. I tend to see him as more like a prophet, a guru, if you like, than the conventional view of the "saviour".

[Meadhbh]

One of the things I really don't like about christanity is the fact that when you go to church you sit down and some one up front tells you what think. I know all faiths every where have a priesthood or clergy of some type be it shamans or the pope. But the church has this real problem with people thinking for themselves. It seems to me that its a sit there and behave yourselves and when you die you'll get something good. Thats why they invented sin to keep people afraid enough to do what ever their told.

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Thank you for all of your replies, everyone.

In line with the previous post, the two main factors that turn me off from Christianity is:

1) As soon as you're born, you are viewed as imperfect or skewed

2) Free thought is strongly discouraged and almost 100% obedience is required

I suppose I have too much sympathy for the Devil.

:hehehehe:

[Brightshores]

Some of the early Christian "heretics" thought much the same thing. Even some of the not quite so "heretical" versions, like Celtic Christianity, for instance, don't really go very heavy on the "fallenness" of humanity. I tend to see him as more like a prophet, a guru, if you like, than the conventional view of the "saviour".
Good point, and I agree with you. I tend to see Christ as an enlightened man, almost in a similar way to a Buddha, rather than a "savior" without whom the whole world is doomed.

I left Christianity due to some unpleasant aspects that I was not comfortable with. I was never comfortable with the misogynist and convoluted doctrine of St Paul, St Augustine, and the other Patristic theologians, and I could never get my head around a supposedly "loving" God who was happy to condemn 5/6ths of the world's population to eternal damnation simply for not worshiping him in a particular way.

I like my current path due to the ideological freedom - I can and do believe in the common tenets of all religions while rejecting the idea of the supremacy of any one religion over the others. Plus - my view of the Gods is not compatible with Christianity. While I see your point with certain Gods who are either linked with or easily analogous to the Judeo-Christian tradition (e.g. Mithras, Asherah, Krishna), I am more of a hard polytheist and simply can't believe that Gods and Goddesses such as Aphrodite, Brigid, and Quetzalcoatl are aspects of the Judeo-Christian Trinity. They just seem too dissimilar.

[LostSheep]

I tend to see Christ as an enlightened man, almost in a similar way to a Buddha, rather than a "savior" without whom the whole world is doomed.

While I see your point with certain Gods who are either linked with or easily analogous to the Judeo-Christian tradition (e.g. Mithras, Asherah, Krishna), I am more of a hard polytheist and simply can't believe that Gods and Goddesses such as Aphrodite, Brigid, and Quetzalcoatl are aspects of the Judeo-Christian Trinity. They just seem too dissimilar.

Well, the early church managed to convert Brigid to St Brigid, at least.

And I've often thought about the comparisons between Jesus and Buddha... in fact, reading about the life (so far as is known) of the Buddha, I was quite struck by some of the similarities with what Jesus is quoted as saying.

[Brightshores]

And I've often thought about the comparisons between Jesus and Buddha... in fact, reading about the life (so far as is known) of the Buddha, I was quite struck by some of the similarities with what Jesus is quoted as saying.
I agree completely - I've often thought the same thing. :)

[cheddarsox]

Wow...where to begin with this one...

I always prefer to just share my own experiences and feelings on my own faith than to comment on another's.

I am a pantheist...not because I shopped around and chose it with my head, but because...it is what I am and what my experiences show is true.

I gave up on Christianity, because none of the promises panned out. I guess that is a form of finding things in that faith distasteful, I find untruth, dressed up as truth, distasteful.

I also think that Christianity has made "God" way to small and obsessed with humanity.

The universe, the power of nature, is huge, and is not focused on humanity. It is worthy of worship because of what it is, not because it promises humans some reward.

They are always telling me they worship God because of what He's done for them. I worship because of what the Universe IS, not because of how it serves me.

cheddar

[Tanya]

big question short answer... I was generally content being a Christian except for the blatant mysogyny... and that's why I'm not one now.

its not just the "god is to man as man is to woman" stuff

its the 'go forth and subdue creation " mentality....

the general idea that mankind stands outside of creation...

finally the denial of the body as a a holy object (and thus the vilification of sex and all things carnal)

[sarabethv]

I am what I am comfortable being. It isn't even really a specific type of paganism but rather my own mash of this and that. I guess I've always been here, but I did try other religions and study them. There were too many - how do I put this? discrepencies? Too many differences between what it was said to believe and what I saw in practice, and even if the dogma itself would have worked on its own, I would have considered it.

As to your process, of course christianity is a mosh pit of all those things, because if you study (which I have, in fact I teach these things too) you will see a clear progession in ideas in the region of the middle east. Each religion borrows, and tosses those ideas that work for the culture and the time. You also see similar concepts in other areas, because despite what we think about modern times, there was a great deal of travel and trade in ancient times as well. Our ancestors were well read, well traveled cosmopolotan people. And finally, we create our gods in our own image - thus being humans our gods will be similar.

[WildThing]

Okay, it wasn't that I disliked christianity any..though admittedly I disliked a few bits in there..the message overall was still good; love one another, be a good example for all to see.

Basic stuff lotsa of us pagans believe in, I know.

But that wasn't the POINT.

You know how people try paganism, and sometimes to a few individuals it doesn't feel...you know, real?
There was only emptiness there for me.
I saw other people, all happy and spiritual (well, until I explored and found some people who were exactly opposite of that later on)..and I wondered if something was wrong with me.
Well, raised in a pretty christian household, I was naturally not very open minded to magick and paganism/witchcraft at first. I was afraid of it, *laughs*
I blame youth! *joking*
Anyway, but I edged closer and closer until eventually I saw that there was actually very little to be afraid of. I saw more warmth and kindness there, than I would later see of christians...but this is unrelated to THEN when I decided that I would start on my Path.
I felt such a pull, inexplicable, unexplainable, to explore this religion I was never told about as a child.
And even for a few months after I started, I still had a voice in the back of my head -- you know that voice that always speaks of unfounded fears? Yes, that one. But after awhile, it went away. And over time I gained more perspective on different religions as well as mine...and I can honestly say that I don't dislike any of them, which is why I'm eclectic. I take what truths I find anywhere and incorporate them in my own faith...because I don't believe that what religion we have matters. We all believe in the same thing, we all just have our own versions of it.
My version of it fits me the best. The christian God didn't not fit me very well, and I could not relate to him very well. I didn't understand him, either.
And though I don't think we'll ever understand the Gods, we should at least be able to understand how we view them.

Paganism is just what's right for me, for me it's what most accurately describes my personal reality.

Christianity is what's right for other people, and that's fine. For others its Islam, its aethism, its Satanism (NOT devil-worship, its easy to confuse the two, I know)...
The world is positively filled with faith systems.
Just because one became popular doesn't mean it's the ONLY way for people to believe something. And all beliefs, should be respected.

There, I think I answered your question, heh ^_^

[Phoenix Blue]

Jesus said, you can judge a tree by its fruit. That's why Christianity doesn't work for me. I've studied the atrocities committed in the name of Christianity, with the official sanction of its leaders, and I've personally experienced spiritual abuse in the name of Christianity. Neither of these are compatible with my understanding of Jesus' own worldview, so why would I want to follow that religion?

[brymble]

it's funny how we speak of christianity as if it were one homogenous religion, with one unquestioned set of doctrines, dogmas, practices, and culture that all christians agree on, without question or dispute. as if there were no discernable difference between a roman catholic, southern baptist, presbyterrian, or quaker. as if american charismatic, conservative fundamentalism or roaman catholicism were the end all and be all of christianity.

i have no beef with the teachings of jesus. americian pop christian culture i find repulsive, but i do know the difference between that and christianity.