What would you class as "advanced magick?"

[Enlightenment1]

As it says on the tin "What would you class as "advanced magick?"

Not that I'm advanced, I'm just curious :)

BB, Enlightenment )O(

[Zephyrstorm]

Hmm... Rituals involving Possession (Drawing Down the Moon included), prolonged fasting, certain kinds of sexual magic... I'm sure there are others.

[Fire-scryer]

I'd throw Ceremonial Magic in there as well. It's definitely not for your everyday Joe Blow, that's for sure.

[Enlightenment1]

Yes, Ceremonial Magick, Possession, of course!

Also, I've been reading a bit about Invoking (no, I don't want to Invoke a Spirit or Demon, LOL) but Invoking the Goddess/God. I've heard two sides to this and its left me a bit confuzzled i.e. you shouldn't Invoke but Evoke instead, and then other saying it's fine to Invoke? What's your take on this? I suppose it all depends on which Goddess/God you're wanting to Invoke, right?

Also, something else that has left me a little confussed is a chapter from Kala Trobe's book A Witches Guide to Life. She said something along the lines of this "I once had this friend who was an advanced Witch, she came round to my house one time when she suddenly pointed at my cat (Kala's Familiar) and said "You should put a Familiar in him" Kala responds with "He already is my Familiar" the friend replies with "No, he's just an average cat." That was the jist of it anyway.

What did this "friend" mean by "You should put a Familiar in him?" (No, I don't want to go around messing with animals either, LOL, just intregued)

Thanks in advance :)

[Fire-scryer]

Yes, Ceremonial Magick, Possession, of course!

Also, I've been reading a bit about Invoking (no, I don't want to Invoke a Spirit or Demon, LOL) but Invoking the Goddess/God. I've heard two sides to this and its left me a bit confuzzled i.e. you shouldn't Invoke but Evoke instead, and then other saying it's fine to Invoke? What's your take on this? I suppose it all depends on which Goddess/God you're wanting to Invoke, right?

Also, something else that has left me a little confussed is a chapter from Kala Trobe's book A Witches Guide to Life. She said something along the lines of this "I once had this friend who was an advanced Witch, she came round to my house one time when she suddenly pointed at my cat (Kala's Familiar) and said "You should put a Familiar in him" Kala responds with "He already is my Familiar" the friend replies with "No, he's just an average cat." That was the jist of it anyway.

What did this "friend" mean by "You should put a Familiar in him?" (No, I don't want to go around messing with animals either, LOL, just intregued)

Thanks in advance :)

I have heard so many back and forth discussions on this. The way I understand it is you Invoke a deity with a prayer or to call them down into your circle to join you. You can also invoke a deity into you (drawing down the moon) but it is always done with respect to that spirit. It is more of a request. However, you would Evoke a spirit into a space outside of your sacred space. This could be to communicate with it or to command it to do something. This is more of a commanding the spirit.

That being said, this is why an inexperienced person should never Evoke spirits. If you don't do your circles correctly then you will be all sorts of vulnerable to this possibly hostile spirit that you just called forth.

Think of it this way, let's say you were in your living room drinking tea and relaxing and all of a sudden you were whipped out of your chair and held in a container and told you have to do what you are told. I think that may make you a little upset yes? Well, essentially this is what is happening so it would be a fair assumption to say that these spirits have a high chance of being a little hostile and if you leave yourself open at all, I am sure they are going to take advantage of that.

I am not a Ceremonial Magic expert by any means. It interests the hell out of me though and with as meticulous as I am about setting up rituals and doing things step by step I think it might be something I would be good at. But, who knows. All I can do is read and see if it interests me after I get through the meat and potatoes of it.

[Brigid Rowan]

What is advanced magic? Depends...for a baby, crawling is advanced, for a toddler, walking smoothly is advanced..for a marathon runner, 20 odd miles is their bread-n-butter. I think it has to fall on the mage her/himself to self evaluate with a critical eye. Before doing something, you have to think it through, sort of plot it out, all the might-happens, and the likely-to-happens, and make contingencies and plans..

The more I learn about magecraft and witchcraft, the more I realize its 80-90% learning and studying and pondering. Unlike those lucky little hollywood-esque witches, we have to deal with something called consequences. Lol..

But for me, in general terms, I sort of lump these into advanced arenas:

Herbalism/Potion making with potentially toxic herbs. Big dangers there...gotta really know yer stuff. Self inflicted poisoning is pretty uncool, I bet.
Summoning. Anything. Cause sometimes they forget to play nicely.
You gotta be careful who you work with. Annoying a diety isnt a good idea.
You gotta be careful where you go astrally, not all neighborhoods are nice.

There are a ton of other things...and any part of magick can be made advanced, because there is no end to it, it can go as far as, well, as far as the person wants it to go...

[Lupabitch]

What did this "friend" mean by "You should put a Familiar in him?" (No, I don't want to go around messing with animals either, LOL, just intregued)



Some people believe that animal familiars were physical animals possessed by spirits. In my own experience, it is the animal hirself that is the familiar. Certain animals are able to connect with certain magic workers to create a rare but effective bond. A true familiar isn't just a pet that comes running when the coven gets together. A familiar not only guards the magician during magic, but can perform magic hirself on behalf of the magician (IME).

[Lupabitch]

Advanced magic is the stuff that breaks down your barriers. It makes you vulnerable. When you call on a deity, a spirit or other entity and invite them into your home, or your body; when you delve into the Otherworld to seek knowledge or something lost; or when you dive into the depths of your own psyche and face all those scary things that make you squirm just to think about them--that's advanced magic.

[Enlightenment1]

Thanks for all the replies :)

I agree with all you said on advanced Magick, Lupa!

[Enlightenment1]

Some people believe that animal familiars were physical animals possessed by spirits. In my own experience, it is the animal hirself that is the familiar. Certain animals are able to connect with certain magic workers to create a rare but effective bond. A true familiar isn't just a pet that comes running when the coven gets together. A familiar not only guards the magician during magic, but can perform magic hirself on behalf of the magician (IME).

Thanks for explaining Lupa :smile:

I deffo haven't found my Familiar yet but my Animal Guide is doing a good enough job :)

[Lunacie]

Yes, Ceremonial Magick, Possession, of course!

Also, I've been reading a bit about Invoking (no, I don't want to Invoke a Spirit or Demon, LOL) but Invoking the Goddess/God. I've heard two sides to this and its left me a bit confuzzled i.e. you shouldn't Invoke but Evoke instead, and then other saying it's fine to Invoke? What's your take on this? I suppose it all depends on which Goddess/God you're wanting to Invoke, right?

Also, something else that has left me a little confussed is a chapter from Kala Trobe's book A Witches Guide to Life. She said something along the lines of this "I once had this friend who was an advanced Witch, she came round to my house one time when she suddenly pointed at my cat (Kala's Familiar) and said "You should put a Familiar in him" Kala responds with "He already is my Familiar" the friend replies with "No, he's just an average cat." That was the jist of it anyway.

What did this "friend" mean by "You should put a Familiar in him?" (No, I don't want to go around messing with animals either, LOL, just intregued)

Thanks in advance :)

My opinion:

Evoking is when you ask a Deity, elemental, etc. to be present in the circle.

Invoking is when you invite the Deity, etc. 'into' yourself, and for a time you 'become' that Deity.

It's not a real good idea to invoke the Morrigan or Kali or Loki as a beginner - not because they are evil or malicious, but because they are probably more than you can handle without some practice and some time spent getting to know them and having a relationship with them.

[Enlightenment1]

My opinion:

Evoking is when you ask a Deity, elemental, etc. to be present in the circle.

Invoking is when you invite the Deity, etc. 'into' yourself, and for a time you 'become' that Deity.

It's not a real good idea to invoke the Morrigan or Kali or Loki as a beginner - not because they are evil or malicious, but because they are probably more than you can handle without some practice and some time spent getting to know them and having a relationship with them.

Exactly what I've read somewhere else on the net. Thanks for confirming that :) In fact I do enough work with Kali as it is (never mind Invoking Her). She likes to keep giving me that good old kick up the butt to get me in gear and some of it can be pretty abrupt and sudden. It seems once She comes into your life She likes to get things done quick time, LOL. All for the best in the long run (though sometimes it doesn't feel like that at the time) :fpraise:

[anomalous]

I'd say anything which results in calling a spirit of any form. Where as the practicer

a) must know how to ground yourself
b) close the door once your done

As for controlling spirits, with grounding being key issue you need to be able to "pull" yourself as it were back in to your conscious state at will and if the spirit knows this its all good.

The issue comes from allowing the spirit too much leverage and when its not there they can take advantage and can put you in a bad situation, you either fight for your earthly real estate (body) or you go and seek spiritual healing, but by then you can have little choice in the matter.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I would say advanced magic is any magic that is not a normal part of your pathwork. We (collectively) focus so frequently on what is advanced yet fail to realize that what is advance or not normal for one is everyday for another.

Weapon magic is advanced for a none warrior person. Yet a warrior would not think twice about having a weapon blessed, installing a name and dedication of a weapon, binding a weapon to a gods service, etc. This doesn't even touch upon more specific things a given individual may do.

Potions and spell work in general is advanced for me as my pathwork does not call for the usuage of such things. Yet walking alternate realms and dealing with things not of a natural world are everyday. Some study herbs and plants as a base for thier path yet another may not even know what a herb is for it is not thier pathwork.

Calling upon, invoking, evoking are things that are common in the name of many practioners of Voodo, Hoodoo, Santeria, Vodun, etc. It's as base level as waking up in the morning. Yet many that follow a more european inspired pagan path have a great reluctance to do so. I personally see it as a carry over of invoking gods name in vain or as a blasphamoy.

I think many recons may have an easier time of it as many of the great figures of mythology frequently called upon a god / goddess by name or gave their body over to that god / goddes on the battle field.

I personaly think that is why "Advanced" books fail so badly. Advanced for one is but basic for another. This very threads speaks of ceremonial magic as advanced but for some it is basic knowledge and taught as basic level things.

I will say I think this is a perfect example of where the eccletic facet of the movement is hurting for thier is no longer a sub-set that may specilize in a given magic within the group and teach it. Their is no longer the group subset that focused on ritual and ceremony. no longer the group that focused on warrior magics, no healer magics as a primary focus.

In essence no subsets to show that advanced for one is but baseline for another.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

In the Tradition I teach , we do know , the animal familiar ,
is different than the animal itself...

One of our symbol arrangements , has a number value , of
1318...this symbol arrangement , also , is a chant...

Now...it is said , the word " Envocare " , is Latin...yet , as
we know , it is an ancient word , from our language...

This is our number - word formula , for the animal familiar
chant , which tells us , what to use...

Chant To Envocare Animal Familiar In To Possess Animal = 1318

As far as other advanced magick / mgieck...I agree with others
here...I also started a thread here , awhile ago , on Axionic Blood
Lines...Sex Mgieck , envoking entities , or deities...

I also , however , would add , the directing of telluric and stellar
currents , for superpositioning one's will into the earth grid , for
effecting planetary consciousness , large scale...

Not for beginners...

[PrincessKLS]

I don't really get into the classifications of beginner, intermediate, and advanced magick.

[Lunacie]

What would you class as "advanced magick?"

Something I haven't learned to do successfully yet.

[MoonChild78]

I deffo haven't found my Familiar yet but my Animal Guide is doing a good enough job :)

Don't worry, your familiar will FIND you. Mine sure did!!

[MoonChild78]

I will say I think this is a perfect example of where the eccletic facet of the movement is hurting for thier is no longer a sub-set that may specilize in a given magic within the group and teach it. Their is no longer the group subset that focused on ritual and ceremony. no longer the group that focused on warrior magics, no healer magics as a primary focus.

In essence no subsets to show that advanced for one is but baseline for another.

I agree totally being eccletic as well as solitary. Although, 10+ years of reading and studying has given me a good idea of what I would consider to be "advanced". I also agree with another point that was made that said advanced depends on where you are in your studies. The example used was crawling is advanced for an infant, ect. I wouldn't worry though to much about "advanced". When I started everything was advanced, even just casting a circle was advanced. I think that the more you work, read, study, do, learn, ect. you see that advanced is a state of mind and that you have so much more potential and that advanced becomes more of a conifince thing than anything else!!

Hope that helps!! Of course, this is just what I've learned over the past few years as well!!

[EvieLee]

I wouldn't worry though to much about "advanced". When I started everything was advanced, even just casting a circle was advanced. I think that the more you work, read, study, do, learn, ect. you see that advanced is a state of mind and that you have so much more potential and that advanced becomes more of a conifince thing than anything else!!

I think this is a great point. It's more about what you're comfortable with more so than what's advanced and what's not. If you feel you've grasped something and understand it well then it's not advanced. If you're still experimenting with or researching something then you're pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, which would be what I would consider to be rather "advanced".

[anomalous]

I don't really get into the classifications of beginner, intermediate, and advanced magick.

I wouldn't class it in three but defiantly two levels.

Majick isn't a toy, lots of people can hurt themselves using majick its and thats why we have healers in my view. I think the best way to perceive it is based upon one very important concept if the majick is based upon perception alone, belief if it will work in a certian way (a self created ritual) and is something done by yourself then its quite harmless, you created it, its of you, etc.

If the majick is created by something given to you from a previous practicer and passed down and your told to do it this way then you really don't know what it's going to do, unless you have a foundation of spiritual ability, i.e protection, cleansing, grounding. If done incorrectly you can be stuck in bad predicament where the whole thing can go south on you not knowingly.

2 Categories for me, a prepared practicer and an unprepared practicer. Majick of the self and Majick of a system.

[David19]

I think advanced magic would include ceremonial magic (some forms of it at least), the Kabbalah (especially the practical parts, and I've been reading 'Mystical Qabalah' by Dion Fortune and various other ones, and still am quite confused, some of it is getting a bit clearer, but I'm a long way from knowing how to use it practically (i.e. gaining magical powers through it)), summoning spirits, especially those like demons, angels, Gods, etc.

I'd also consider the more flashy versions of magic, like levitation, invisiblity, telekenisis, telepathy, teleportation, etc advanced versions of magic.

And, I can't remember if I read this write but I think in Tantra, there are some siddhis (supernatural powers) you can develop which are basically flashing fire from your fingers and lightning bolts (who says the magic from Buffy can't be real!).

Also, magic that works on a large scale (e.g. effecting a town, globally, etc) to be advanced.

[Enlightenment1]

And, I can't remember if I read this write but I think in Tantra, there are some siddhis (supernatural powers) you can develop which are basically flashing fire from your fingers and lightning bolts (who says the magic from Buffy can't be real!).

Hmm, I don't believe in the Hollywood style Magick :cutie:

[Enlightenment1]

Don't worry, your familiar will FIND you. Mine sure did!!

:smile:

[Dark_Tezcatlipoca]

I'd also consider the more flashy versions of magic, like levitation, invisiblity, telekenisis, telepathy, teleportation, etc advanced versions of magic.

they disproved all those tricks used by "psychics" on a program on ch50. it was one of those "revealed" shows. And, I can't remember if I read this write but I think in Tantra, there are some siddhis (supernatural powers) you can develop which are basically flashing fire from your fingers and lightning bolts (who says the magic from Buffy can't be real!).


You're kidding arent you?

[mtpathy]

As it says on the tin "What would you class as "advanced magick?"

Not that I'm advanced, I'm just curious :)

BB, Enlightenment )O(

magick through ritual is associating symbols with inward vibration
advanced magick is associating inward vibration with outward/worldly symbolism.
this is the point where you step out of ritual magick, and magick becomes a spontanious happening of life.

[David19]

they disproved all those tricks used by "psychics" on a program on ch50. it was one of those "revealed" shows.

Couldn't you say that about all magic?. Besides, who's to say that magic is just all subtle stuff that just involves sitting zazen visualizing an egg shaped light.

You're kidding arent you?

It's what I read about one of the siddhis, I'm not saying I'd believe someone who told me they could do that, but I'm just saying what I read.

[David19]

Hmm, I don't believe in the Hollywood style Magick :cutie:

It's good to be skeptical, but something I read on whywiccanssuck.com (http://web.archive.org/web/20011129082801/http://www.whywiccanssuck.com/)really makes sense, IMO anyway:

From here (http://web.archive.org/web/20020212023842/www.whywiccanssuck.com/hist2.html):

Many other "History of Witchcraft" webpages, such as this one, point out that "The information on witches prior to 1750 seems to leave the context of reality and border more on myth," as if earlier, flashy references to witchcraft aren't really valuable unless they have something to do with a religion -- Goddess-worship, mundane rituals, or anything else that promotes simple-and-sober "wicca" as THE definition of witchcraft. Who was it that first started thinking this way? Why, the authors who wanted to validate how "ancient" their books are, of course! Where better to look than calling praying priests "witches"? All of that stuff about having amazing powers while using mind-altering drugs, nasty substances like urine, and the body parts of animals sounds way too scary to be Wiccan...

From here (http://web.archive.org/web/20020207183729/www.whywiccanssuck.com/index2.html)

"Magick isn't what Hollywood portrays it as. We don't levitate objects or flash fire from our fingers." Well why the hell not? "Because magick is just a subtle force underneath everything that I can bend to my will, a little... okay, not much, really.... ummm... uh.... Sometimes I dream of the future and stuff..." Fluffy fluffy fluffy. You've been brainwashed into recognising that everyone's definition of magic has always been wrong, too. It was never anything spectacular, it's just drawing circles on the ground and lighting candles. But if you've subtly threatened someone with how spooky you are, you'd rather not let them know that your version of Wiccan magick involves something that sounds like really fancy prayer.

"But this so-called 'fluffy' stuff is a step to higher magick!" Have you ever met a fellow Wiccan who practiced high magick? The HP/S of your circle, maybe? No? How about high magick webpages, instead of some Wiccan's rambling about how oppressed they are? Any how-to books on the subject in your local newage shop? No? Of course not -- they wouldn't sell. Magic takes discipline, and neopagans would much rather be told they're a witch right away (for "worshipping the God/Goddess" or some other non-mystical habit) than through blood & sweat training and lifelong research.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Wiccans can't learn heavy magick; rather, that the Wiccans who know what they're doing are mature. You'll never catch one of these wearing ten pounds of pentacle jewelry and picking arguments with Christians. In fact, you'll probably never even realize that they're Wiccan, at all. They don't let a religion define who they are -- they have better things to do.

And this one (http://web.archive.org/web/20020207145905/www.whywiccanssuck.com/emails.html):

<< Once you discover magick that's strong enough, startling enough, so
unexpected that it will completely redesign your concept of reality, no
questions asked... that's real magick. And another, stronger punch in the
face will soon follow, if only you dig deeper. There's no end to the wonders
you'll find if you stop referring to books, or calling your spirits -- and
actually get out there and throw yourself into the unknown headfirst, alone,
petrified. There's no spoon-feeding, so you'll ingest a lot more. >>

Personally, the last quote is my favourite, anyway, like the author, I do think that magic is more than simply visualizing white light or doing a money spell is more than just sitting and imagining money surrounding you, like some books and sites suggest.

Anyway, that's just me and my opinion. I don't mind whether people agree, disagree, or don't care one way or the other about it.

[aluokaloo]

ceremonial magick, illusions and glamor, tantra, possession, evocation, mind control, invisibility, weather magick are all incredibly advanced forms of magick impo.