Pagan Frustrations

[pythagoras]

I couldn't begin to remember how many times I've heard neo-pagans, especially Wiccans, sigh and bemoan the fact that "They don't understand that [insert name here] is a valid religion!" The deeply held belief in the chatrooms, online forums,
correspondance courses, and newsletters I've visited and read seems to be that other people (usually Christians) are simply too closed-minded to recognize that Wicca is an actual religion. After all, the military says we are and how much more validity do you need?
Frankly, plenty.
This is not a "Wicca-bashing" rant. I have nothing against Wicca whatsoever...when it's practiced properly. Unfortunately, I've read far too many websites and First Degree courses which say "witchcraft" equals "Wicca" (or vice versa) to have any hope that many neo-pagans know anything at all about what constitutes a 'religion.' Now, I realize that many, Wiccans especially, are individuals who are recovering from spiritually ignorant or inept parents who taught them that talking with God was unnecessary, but putting down the neighbors and ostentaciously putting in the donation basket somehow was. I realize that it's awfully fun to talk about Spirit Guides and elemental correspondances in order to make yourself feel smarter in at least one aspect of your life. And it's really great to put the blame for all of society's faults on "Book Religions" (ie, anything related to Christianity) and "Patriarchy" (again, anything related to Christianity - after all, no 'pagan' native societies were sexist in the least).
However, that sort of behavior really doesn't lend itself to respectability. The situation becomes particularly bad when mixed in with bad history. A late eighteenth century aristocrat claims to be descended from a witch and suddenly the assumptions fly! No, it isn't possible that he was interested in the same sort of magic-revivalist movement that spawned the Masons; he must be talking about REAL LINEAGE, and this is proof that Wicca is directly descended from a pre-Christian religious tradition that believed in four (er...I mean five) elements and knew about chakra!
The historian in the audience coughs politely and leaves.
Or, how about the way that a folklorist was conveniently given a document by a real live Italian Witch that had a creation story in it which demonstrates how pre-Christian beliefs were still alive and well! And, look, it's even utilizing 19th century symbology so that we can all understand it, and Leland wasn't really hoping to be catapulted to international fame.
I would that by now even the densest of readers would understand my point. Unfortunately, there are many who were initiated into a First Degree before the age of 15 by an unscrupulous school who doesn't mind taking money from innocent adolescents, so let me make this plain: there's a reason it's called "The Wiccan Myth" by contemporary historians. Myths are fun to read, but they aren't real. I hate to be the one to break this to you, but Aphrodite didn't really have a man's throat goured out by a bull, and Noah didn't really build an ark. Oh...you already knew the Noah story wasn't true?
Moreover, Wiccans tend to happily connect themselves with behavior that the rest of the society considers odd and/or dangerous. Now, being skyclad is one thing; unless you're molesting children at the same time, the majority of people in Western cultures understand that even though the behavior is eccentric it is not particularly harmful. Astral projection and
invocation are another thing entirely. How is it that people caution against ouija boards, but not against channeling? For a religion who has taken the majority of its magical practices from medieval Christians or Greeks and Egyptians, Wicca has certainly managed to easily eradicate the same fears and respects that originally accompanied them. Wiccans laugh at the thought of demons or dangerous non-corporeals. "Don't be silly - as long as you ground and center you'll be okay!" Oh, dear.
The properly trained magician and shaman in the audience both cough politely and quickly run away.
After all, what does magic actually have to do with spirituality? What does astral projection give you that you really need? How many individuals who practice astral projection have any concept of what that particular ability was used for in shamanic societies? Let me provide a small example of the relationship between magical or psychic ability and spirituality: without naming names, there is a very powerful magician who willingly teaches others his craft (yes, in this case it can actually be called a 'craft'). He can shapeshift (and no, I don't mean "he thinks he's a cat" or "others think he's a cat"). He can teleport (and no, I don't mean he gets dizzy and claims to have experienced an OBE). He can channel (no, I do not mean that suddenly he has an idea or a saying in his head while he's meditating and it HAD to come from SOMEWHERE). Yet, this individual does not worship any Deity; he's an agnostic.
Whenever the words "witchcraft" and "demon" enter into the same sentence loud protestations emerge from the gabble of Wiccans standing or lurking about. A Wicca who can 'draw down the moon' yet doesn't get a response to prayer? I've met them. They're out there. You might even know one. And so you really have to wonder about these people who can do an amazing amount of things, yet have no connection to God/dess; if nothing else, they aren't doing themselves any spiritual favors.
And as a last point, since when is Hinduism a 'pagan religion?' And Buddhism? And Shinto? And a whole host of other faiths which somehow get lumped in with reconstructionist Witchcraft and neo-Druidism? Don't they have any say in the matter? (One particular Tradition, which shall remain nameless but is very, very popular nowadays, says that all religions except Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Satanism are 'pagan' and should band together because of all their similarities).
Are there idiots out there? Yes. Some people are stupid, and that's a fact of life. But we don't have to listen to them, for Christ's sake (collective gasps - I said the C-word!).
Wicca is a religion, and it needs to be respected as such. The base of a religion is a connection with Deity, above all else. Practicing chakra manipulation before you're learned prayer isn't just anachronistic, it's bloody dangerous! The neo-pagan and New Age communities are quickly getting to a point where we'll have to re-evaluate ourselves. Suicide and depression are becoming common among our set; this isn't just coincidence. We're sowing the seeds of our own destruction. And all this crap is going to come back to haunt us.
So Mote it Be?

[Lavender]

:eyebrow: Heheh! Interesting first post. Welcome to mysticwicks. Make yourself at home. :p

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth pythagoras:
I couldn't begin to remember how many times I've heard neo-pagans, especially Wiccans, sigh and bemoan the fact that "They don't understand that [insert name here] is a valid religion!" The deeply held belief in the chatrooms, online forums,
correspondance courses, and newsletters I've visited and read seems to be that other people (usually Christians) are simply too closed-minded to recognize that Wicca is an actual religion. After all, the military says we are and how much more validity do you need?
Frankly, plenty.
I guess that has to depend on what you mean by "valid." As far as the IRS and the US Armed Forces are concerned, Wicca is perfectly valid. You may not view some eclectic paths within Wicca or Paganism as valid; however, as long as they work for the people following them, I would have to disagree.

Further, let me share something with you. I'm stationed in Alabama. It is 100% true that a lot of people here, mostly Christians, are too closed-minded to recognize that Wicca is an actual religion.


This is not a "Wicca-bashing" rant. I have nothing against Wicca whatsoever...when it's practiced properly.
So in one sentence you set yourself up to dictate what is or is not Wiccan. Good job!


Unfortunately, I've read far too many websites and First Degree courses which say "witchcraft" equals "Wicca" (or vice versa) to have any hope that many neo-pagans know anything at all about what constitutes a 'religion.'
**Nods** If you're talking about Silver Ravenwolf's work in the field, I agree with you. The two aren't the same, though certainly there are enough similarities that the two faiths might be cousins or even sisters.


However, that sort of behavior really doesn't lend itself to respectability. The situation becomes particularly bad when mixed in with bad history.
I think in the last few years the Pagan and Reconstructionist communities have done a lot to clear up this garbage. You still find the occasional reference to "millions of Witches killed," but those are fewer and further between. And real reference work, like Hutton's "Triumph of the Moon," exists to debunk myths such as my example.


I would that by now even the densest of readers would understand my point. Unfortunately, there are many who were initiated into a First Degree before the age of 15 by an unscrupulous school who doesn't mind taking money from innocent adolescents, so let me make this plain: there's a reason it's called "The Wiccan Myth" by contemporary historians. Myths are fun to read, but they aren't real. I hate to be the one to break this to you, but Aphrodite didn't really have a man's throat goured out by a bull, and Noah didn't really build an ark. Oh...you already knew the Noah story wasn't true?
I'm just as confident that Aphrodite didn't exist in the flesh as I am about Noah or Christ or Osiris. **Shrugs** Religion doesn't have to work that way, at least, not for me. I am curious, though--who made coined the "Wiccan Myth" term?


Moreover, Wiccans tend to happily connect themselves with behavior that the rest of the society considers odd and/or dangerous. Now, being skyclad is one thing; unless you're molesting children at the same time, the majority of people in Western cultures understand that even though the behavior is eccentric it is not particularly harmful. Astral projection and
invocation are another thing entirely. How is it that people caution against ouija boards, but not against channeling?
Because Milton Bradley doesn't offer channeling services, nor is channeling marketed as a game. People are at least aware that channeling (outside the realm of Ouija) is serious business and should only be done by someone who knows what she's getting herself into.


For a religion who has taken the majority of its magical practices from medieval Christians or Greeks and Egyptians, Wicca has certainly managed to easily eradicate the same fears and respects that originally accompanied them. Wiccans laugh at the thought of demons or dangerous non-corporeals. "Don't be silly - as long as you ground and center you'll be okay!" Oh, dear.
Most Wiccans, especially at the first-degree level and oftentimes beyond, never step into the kind of majick where they'd have to worry about such entities. Ceremonial magicians, on the other hand, do; and I've yet to meet a single CM who's passed my intuitive "Is he all there?" test. There's something to be said for bringing unto yourself the very darkness you try to protect yourself against, perhaps. . ?


After all, what does magic actually have to do with spirituality? What does astral projection give you that you really need? How many individuals who practice astral projection have any concept of what that particular ability was used for in shamanic societies? Let me provide a small example of the relationship between magical or psychic ability and spirituality: without naming names, there is a very powerful magician who willingly teaches others his craft (yes, in this case it can actually be called a 'craft'). He can shapeshift (and no, I don't mean "he thinks he's a cat" or "others think he's a cat"). He can teleport (and no, I don't mean he gets dizzy and claims to have experienced an OBE). He can channel (no, I do not mean that suddenly he has an idea or a saying in his head while he's meditating and it HAD to come from SOMEWHERE). Yet, this individual does not worship any Deity; he's an agnostic.
**Shrugs** All fine and well. If what you're trying to say is that spirituality and majickal talent are two different creatures, I agree. If that wasn't your point, then what are you trying to say?

On a side note, color me skeptical; but if you're going to claim someone can teleport and shapeshift, I'd like to see evidence of those events.


Whenever the words "witchcraft" and "demon" enter into the same sentence loud protestations emerge from the gabble of Wiccans standing or lurking about. A Wicca who can 'draw down the moon' yet doesn't get a response to prayer? I've met them. They're out there. You might even know one. And so you really have to wonder about these people who can do an amazing amount of things, yet have no connection to God/dess; if nothing else, they aren't doing themselves any spiritual favors.
Here again I kinda have to ask, what's your point? Does someone only have a connection to Deity if it's a connection you can witness and recognize? Maybe for them, their majickal talent is the connection. Don't worry about anyone else's Conversations with God; just worry about your own.


And as a last point, since when is Hinduism a 'pagan religion?' And Buddhism? And Shinto? And a whole host of other faiths which somehow get lumped in with reconstructionist Witchcraft and neo-Druidism?
Since it was defined that way in the dictionary (http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=Paganism).


Wicca is a religion, and it needs to be respected as such. The base of a religion is a connection with Deity, above all else. Practicing chakra manipulation before you're learned prayer isn't just anachronistic, it's bloody dangerous!
Huh? :rolleyes: Give me a break. Kundalini is internal to the body. Unless you're talking about some application of the chakras that I can't picture at the moment, there's nothing "bloody dangerous" about it.


The neo-pagan and New Age communities are quickly getting to a point where we'll have to re-evaluate ourselves. Suicide and depression are becoming common among our set; this isn't just coincidence. We're sowing the seeds of our own destruction. And all this crap is going to come back to haunt us.
I think Ronald Reagan said it best: "There you go again." He was talking to "Gloom-and-Doom" Walter Mondale during the 1984 Presidential debate.

If you want to assert a link between Pagan practices and depression, you need to prove it. You cannot simply say, "This is so," and expect others to believe it at face value.

I think the Pagan community should constantly re-evaluate itself. Only by knowing who and where we are can we know if we're still going where we want to go. But you have to do more than simply assert that everyone should follow your lead.

[WandererInGray]

Welcome.

And congratulations...with that odd rant you put yourself smack in the middle of that which you railed against. :rolleyes:

[pythagoras]

Perhaps I should have followed that "wait 30 minutes before you go swimming" advice, but I was extremely peeved, and still am.

I've been spending some time the past few months as an assistant mentor in an online school. I've seen some pretty nasty stuff from students who should know better - using exercises to psychically attack a boss, trying to put up wards around other people so they wouldn't do certain things, and the like. I guess some amount of that should be expected, considering what people coming into Wicca presume. However, I did not expect that from other mentors and I did not expect that from the head of the Tradition.

My post really wasn't as ridiculous as you rip it up to be. I think that most of us probably aren't aware of the things that have been going on. I'm not talking about little IRC rooms with 13-year-olds that are discussing love spells; I'm talking about highly-respected organizations who profess to teach Wicca and assist people spiritually. Yet there was one particular instance which happened a few days ago in which a 3rd Degree told a neophyte how to begin practicing astral projection; perhaps this neophyte was particularly gifted? Well, even if that was the case, they had only meditated four times thus far, had not gone beyond the second lesson, and didn't understand rudimentary energy work. I'm not talking about Silver Ravenwolf - that's a whole other burr under my saddle. ;)

These weren't issues I've been having with individuals. These have been large organizations who have been pulling this stuff in their First and Second Degree courses. Sorry if that wasn't clear, but that's why I've been on the verge (perhaps past?) of flipping out. I don't feel as though this can be shrugged off, since a number of the 'important' people with whom I've been having problems regardly speak on behalf of the entire Wiccan community.

And I don't intend to lead anybody anywhere. This is simply a problem that has taken me by surprise over the past two or three weeks and completely overwhelmed my ability to cope with it. I had no idea it was this bad.

[SpikesPet5150]

Originally posted by pythagoras
since a number of the 'important' people with whom I've been having problems regardly speak on behalf of the entire Wiccan community.


I didn't know there was anyone who spoke on behalf of the entire Wiccan community. As far as I know, I speak for myself.
~Bree

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth pythagoras:
Perhaps I should have followed that "wait 30 minutes before you go swimming" advice, but I was extremely peeved, and still am.
No biggie. Believe me, I've beentheredonethat.


I've been spending some time the past few months as an assistant mentor in an online school. I've seen some pretty nasty stuff from students who should know better - using exercises to psychically attack a boss, trying to put up wards around other people so they wouldn't do certain things, and the like.
Under the right set of circumstances, I could almost understand such actions. However, all things being equal, those measures are a bit extreme. So yeah, something's smelly in Denmark. . . :) moving on:


I guess some amount of that should be expected, considering what people coming into Wicca presume. However, I did not expect that from other mentors and I did not expect that from the head of the Tradition.
Here's my question at this point: What Tradition, exactly, are you talking about? If this is going on and you want people to be aware of it, you need to be specific. It's okay to want to protect someone's anonymity. . . however, if I want people to avoid my neighbor because she's an ax murderer, it is essential that I say, "My next door neighbor, Natasha, is an ax murderer." If I remain vague and say that "Someone in my neighborhood is an ax murderer," I have done nothing to protect others from Natasha and have slandered every other member of the neighborhood with my statement.


My post really wasn't as ridiculous as you rip it up to be. I think that most of us probably aren't aware of the things that have been going on. I'm not talking about little IRC rooms with 13-year-olds that are discussing love spells; I'm talking about highly-respected organizations who profess to teach Wicca and assist people spiritually. Yet there was one particular instance which happened a few days ago in which a 3rd Degree told a neophyte how to begin practicing astral projection; perhaps this neophyte was particularly gifted? Well, even if that was the case, they had only meditated four times thus far, had not gone beyond the second lesson, and didn't understand rudimentary energy work.
**Nods** This does sound. . . odd. Perplexing, even. So again, I have to ask, who's doing this? Don't be afraid to name names. :)

By the by, I wasn't so much trying to rip up your post. **Smiles** Not the entire post anyway. Some of it, quite honestly, I did see as ridiculous--if for no other reason than you hadn't provided any context.


I'm not talking about Silver Ravenwolf - that's a whole other burr under my saddle. ;)
I hear ya there, Herr Pythagoras.


These weren't issues I've been having with individuals. These have been large organizations who have been pulling this stuff in their First and Second Degree courses. Sorry if that wasn't clear, but that's why I've been on the verge (perhaps past?) of flipping out. I don't feel as though this can be shrugged off, since a number of the 'important' people with whom I've been having problems regardly speak on behalf of the entire Wiccan community.
:bigredgri I'm not really Wiccan (in fact, I've been called an Evil Anti-Wiccan Bully™! :rolleyes: ), but I'd be happy to help try to find a solution to this. The best defence against someone who would presume themselves above everyone else is to knock them down a few pegs. . .

[Melysande]

**Grins**

I love bein' me.

[WandererInGray]

Yet there was one particular instance which happened a few days ago in which a 3rd Degree told a neophyte how to begin practicing astral projection; perhaps this neophyte was particularly gifted? Well, even if that was the case, they had only meditated four times thus far, had not gone beyond the second lesson, and didn't understand rudimentary energy work.

*shrugs* So the 3rd degree was a moron, that wouldn't be a surprise as there are plenty of them floating around out there. (Morons, not 3rd degrees :D)

I still fail to see how this is connected to a rant concerning all Wiccans pushing the things you mentioned in your first post that 99% of "real" Wiccans know is BS, or how it's connected to your belief that Hinduism is *not* Paganism.

*shrugs again* I'm not a Wiccan...I'm a Pagan. And guess what, I study Hinduism and Buddhism.

It's one thing to be aggrivated with a few individuals or even a few organizations....it's quite another to take that aggrivation out on the entire religion. Especially when, as Bree pointed out, those people don't really have the power to "speak for the Wiccan Community."

(*Chuckles* Oh nice Mely, I like it!)

[Azure]

Yeah, yeah, I'm the other member of the E.A.W.S. - even though like all of us, I used to be rather Wiccan.

We do, certainly, see your point. There are lots of people out there who do more to give us a bad name by shouting about their supposed "power" anywhere anyone will listen - and then opt to play guru, in spite of a woeful lack of knowledge. But I don't hink that's the majority of the Pagan/Neo-Pagan etc - or even the Wiccan community in the US.

But PB and Wanderer are right - you need to be a bit more specific. Who/what is propagating the kind of who-ha you're talking about? You're not changing things by making them hypothetical.

And believe me, PB, Wanderer, Melysande, myself and some others here have all logged many hours refuting the "Great Myth of Western White Witchcraft" (with thanks to Margot Adler for the title there). And we don't have much tolerance for those who would propagate the fiction, either.

[AradiaSupernova]

am I allowed to blow the steam out of my ears caused by half the crap you guys all said or do I sit here and roast?

[pythagoras]

I'm sorry I've made myself unclear again; I, myself, am a Wiccan and consequently these various acts by individuals who DO speak for the Wiccan community in a very public way make me terribly concerned. They represent Wicca in two ways - first off, by being active in interfaith groups and with the media, and secondly by being many individuals' first introduction to Wicca.

The primary group with which I've had these problems is the Correllian-Nativist Trad and their shrines and off-shoots. They operate witchschool.com, which routinely has over 1000 enrolled students at any one time. I, and at least two others, have brought most of these concerns and many of these instances to the attention of leaders in the Trad (including the HP). Each time, however, the concerns were either brushed off or presented back as policy (such as in the case of the neophyte being taught astral projection).

And as far as whether or not Hinduism and Buddhism are 'pagan' religions.... If you want to follow the medieval Christian definition, which states that any religion that is not Judeo-Christian is 'pagan,' then yes they are pagan. However, for many, many years I have been operating under the assumption that our community has been redefining the word 'pagan' so that it can be used with a workable, contemporary meaning. I certainly don't understand why a Wiccan school would automatically claim as 'allies' every (medieval-definition) 'pagan' religion, on the assumption that Hinduism has more in common with Wicca than with Christianity. This is creating unnatural barriers between Judaism and Christianity and the remainder of all religions in the world. What is, then, the point of calling oneself a pagan if it only means you aren't Jewish or Christian? I had assumed that the word 'pagan' in our community applied onto to those groups or individuals who adopted it of their own volition.

Thank you, everyone, for being patient even though I haven't been very clear on what I've been trying to say. -_- :)

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth AradiaSupernova:
am I allowed to blow the steam out of my ears caused by half the crap you guys all said or do I sit here and roast?
:huh: What's on your mind, Aradia?

**Shrugs** I dunno. The tradition seems fairly widespread, but I don't see anything on the face of it that's really worth a witch war. Given that they seek to coexist, communicate, and cooperate with other Pagan traditions (according to their mission statement¹), I don't really see them as a threat.

'Sides, I've always felt that natural selection works wonders. If someone shouldn't be delving into astral travel, he'll find out one way or another. And since he's not altogether likely to listen in the first place. . . **shrugs again**

¹ Corellian Wicca & Witchschool.com (http://www.fabrisia.com/correllian.htm)

[Phoenix Blue]

Anyway. . . for a more in-depth response. . . :)


Quoth pythagoras:
I'm sorry I've made myself unclear again; I, myself, am a Wiccan and consequently these various acts by individuals who DO speak for the Wiccan community in a very public way make me terribly concerned. They represent Wicca in two ways - first off, by being active in interfaith groups and with the media, and secondly by being many individuals' first introduction to Wicca.
I don't know that they necessarily intend to represent Wicca. . . **ponders** someone who holds a strong opinion and isn't afraid of sharing it may speak only for himself, yet the chorus of agreement he receives may lead an outside observer to believe the speaker presumes to speak for many. :)

This is a testament mostly to the pack mentality humans in general carry. When more people speak up, the people with strongly-held opinions at least have to think their positions through a bit more clearly.


And as far as whether or not Hinduism and Buddhism are 'pagan' religions.... If you want to follow the medieval Christian definition, which states that any religion that is not Judeo-Christian is 'pagan,' then yes they are pagan.
The medieval definition of 'pagan' also included Gnostics, Knights Templar, Muslims, and Jews. I'm not working with the medieval definition, I'm dealing with the contemporary English definition.

Yes, Pagan refers to a specific religious path. However, its most common usage is exactly what you referenced above: namely, anything not Abrahamic.


However, for many, many years I have been operating under the assumption that our community has been redefining the word 'pagan' so that it can be used with a workable, contemporary meaning. I certainly don't understand why a Wiccan school would automatically claim as 'allies' every (medieval-definition) 'pagan' religion, on the assumption that Hinduism has more in common with Wicca than with Christianity.
Think about it: do you see the concepts of kundalini, Yoga, reincarnation, or Karma applied to Christianity?


This is creating unnatural barriers between Judaism and Christianity and the remainder of all religions in the world.
Huh? **Blinks** Umm, no, Christians are doing that just fine on their own.


What is, then, the point of calling oneself a pagan if it only means you aren't Jewish or Christian? I had assumed that the word 'pagan' in our community applied onto to those groups or individuals who adopted it of their own volition.
At the moment, that dictionary definition is about all that the overall Pagan community can agree upon anyway. Think about it: if that definition of Paganism doesn't work for you, what does? And does your alternative fit everyone who calls herself Pagan?


Thank you, everyone, for being patient even though I haven't been very clear on what I've been trying to say. -_-
**Smiles** No problem; I'm just glad we haven't scared you away by now. :p

[AradiaSupernova]

never mind. I'd wind up sounding like an idiot due to lack of being able to put together sentences that make sense over the last week lol. And i'm not in the mood for an "uneducated fluffbunny" speach again. So...forget it.

[Storm]

I say as long as they aren't pulling a "my religion is better then your religion" and if it works for the individual then who cares. As far as I am concerned unless the individual has studied magick and theory and practiced practiced practiced then they aren't going to do any harm anyway.

[Phoenix Blue]

True, Storm. . . except maybe to themselves. And that's not my concern, quite honestly; as I said earlier, that's just natural selection at work.

Aradia, **smiles** I'm probably one of the last ones who'd give a "silly fluff-bunny" speech, unless it were really over-the-top. The lighter atmosphere here is one of the things I love about this place. . .

But if you have something on your mind regarding what I've said, and you're uncomfortable talking about it here, feel free to PM me, 'k? :) I don't bite (well, with one exception, and you're not her :bigredgri).

[Azure]

And "uneducated" and "fluffy" don't have to go together. The lightness doesn't mean idiocy. The uneducated bit may. . .

And the people we all got tired of fighting with on some other site weren't "light" at all, quite the opposite - just also deliberately ignorant of little things like history, mythology, etc.

[Storm]

Pheonix Blue..no I have nothing againgst anything you said. It was just my take on the whole 'witch war' thing as a whole. I got into this path in the middle of the witch wars and as I am a dark and brooding person by nature guess which side I was on. Now I just think, why bother fighting. As for me I consider my self a balanced light dark style pagan. You gotta do whats right for you.

[Grey]

The thing is alot of people agree with pythagoris. My cousin travis no longer came here because he said some stuff like this (although even less clearly) and got sooo chewed out he wont come back. this guy makes good points theyre just a little strong and thats often a problem. (scrambles for a dictionary) Paganism: the religous practice of worshopping two+ god/esses. so many religions get thrown in theyre while many cults have only one god or none and so are not "pagan".

as for why people tend to say that christians are usually pig headed religously its BECAUSE THEY ARE. the old testament religions say that they are the only gods Period end of story see ya later. and therefore other religions magick or ceremoniall practice using powers of any sort are "EVIL". few and I mean very few older religions say simularly and most of them say simply that other religions are wrong and you should just leavem alone.

Pythagoas as to why you and others who do this get so much feedback its because "He who says nothing is assumed to agree" very old rule of speaking.