Element Order in Astrology

[Earthwalker]

I don't anticipate that anybody knows the answer to this question, but I thought I'd ask anyway. Does anybody know why the elements are assigned to the signs the way they are? The reason why I ask is because it contradicts a couple other well-known systems in terms of the order the elements are 'supposed' to go in. I don't like to take anything blindly, so if any of you by chance know why it was designed this way (or where I might find the answer) please let me know!

Edit: MODS, feel free to move this to one of the subforums if it is in the wrong place. I'm still new here. =)

[punxzen]

what, fire-earth-air-water isn't the classical order????

im kidding, but i would like to know what order you are thinking of.

that's a really good question, one that i hope someone can answer definitively, but if they can't i can offer my own theories and insights... though thatll have to wait til i have much more time to spare.

[Earthwalker]

Both astrology and the usual Neopagan system put elemental opposites (elements which share no common qualities) next to each other. Even before I bothered to go back to the primary source of the system itself (Aka Greece) that just struck me as intuitively wrong when I was first learning about it. How the heck can Fire and Water be next to each other?!? Especially if we're using it as a rotation to inform the cycle of the seasons or other natural processes? So I started digging and doing the research like a good Neopagan.

If you go back to the system from which the four elements originated from (specifically Aristotle in Greece who made the system famous enough that it lasted through to the modern day) there's a specific order the elements are supposed to go in based on their qualities. Each of the elements has two qualities and to transition one element into another, in nature, you can only change one quality at a time. because of that, the natural rotation of the elements goes like this:

Air [MOIST/warm] --> Fire [WARM/dry] --> Earth [DRY/cool] --> Water [COOL/moist]

After that, I set my mind on figuring out why it is that some occult systems, especially the one that somehow got handed down to Neopagans, is 'wrong' in accord with the original source of the four elements. Since astrology stretches back pretty far in history, I thought that might be a good place to look for the origin of that discrepancy. I'm already relatively sure it wasn't from alchemy, though I'm not done with my research into that avenue yet. So that leaves something like astrology, the later ~18th century occultists, or the even more modern occult movements who somewhere didn't do their research or chose to intentionally break the rotation. I'd like to know why at any rate.

On Wikipedia they showed an alternative way or assigning the elements to the signs based on the seasons... and THAT used the classical order. But you know Wikipedia. Who knows if that citation is a proper one or not and I don't know enough about astrology to personally verify if that's a system used by people.

[punxzen]

okay, you've got me, i hope someone else will have a good answer for this. i went and searched through ptolemy's tetrabiblos to see if he set the elemental standard and if he did i found no evidence of it in my quick scan of it here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/astro/ptb/

i took the order you gave and looked for it in the zodiac. it fits neatly enough, but not quite in the seasonal way. if you start with gemini for air and go across to sag for fire, then head to the next sign capricorn for earth, and then on back accross to cancer for water you get an interesting pattern.. i have some theories on why the seasonal flow is different from this classical pattern which i will have to come back to later on once ive given it some more thought. i can say that it has something to do with balance though...

[Shatril]

You know I don't know this answer. I'm afraid that I am not up to par with my Hermetic, so the progression through the elements as done through astrology seemed perfectly normal to me. I do know that there is an order to these. They appear in repeated order of fire, earth, air, water. It is my belief that astrology is was a science and these characteristics were derived from observation by many astrologers over thousands of years. I'm pretty sure that they were familiar with the Hermetic order that you are speaking of, but apparently the planets and signs did not cooperate in this order. The elements in the Zodiac are what they are due to observations by astrologers throughout the history of mankind, and are where they are because that is were the observations have put them.

Sorry I don't find any authoritative ruling on this, in any books, or websties, but this just seems obvious due to how astrology was established over the years. Here is a site with a little on the elements.
http://www.astrology.com/aboutastrology/interpreting/elements/index.html

[Earthwalker]

That's okay. It's a tricky question. I'll probably stumble across it eventually, it was just on my mind lately and I was curious about it. I'm hoping they had a reason for setting it up as they did. =)

[punxzen]

ive been thinking on this topic earthwalker, and ended up searching for the origin of the elements in greek thought and so far ive ended up at plato and im not really expecting to find much before him. specifically his work Timaeus which i started reading about here, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-timaeus/ so i thought id pass on the lead cuz this is some pretty juicy stuff that you might be interested in. im gonna have to come back to it later on cuz im already several hours past my bedtime, but i hope this opens some new avenues of thought for ya :)

[DracoJesi]

I don't anticipate that anybody knows the answer to this question, but I thought I'd ask anyway. Does anybody know why the elements are assigned to the signs the way they are? The reason why I ask is because it contradicts a couple other well-known systems in terms of the order the elements are 'supposed' to go in. I don't like to take anything blindly, so if any of you by chance know why it was designed this way (or where I might find the answer) please let me know!

Edit: MODS, feel free to move this to one of the subforums if it is in the wrong place. I'm still new here. =)

That is indeed a good question, and I'm not saying that I have the definitive answer, but I do believe it to be this...

the reason they are positioned differently reflects the the way they are needed in relation to ones spiritual journey, you see instead of universal balance ( which Astrology does have as not all the signs of each element are grouped together), Astrology tries to explain ones self, how their personality can be influenced, and their is a symbolic cycle in the way the signs are positioned, from Fire (Aries) to Water (Pisces)

each element appears in order three times (body, mind spirit).....

theres allot more to Astrology than most books talk about....

now, to understand why the elements are positioned in such a way, we have to look at their qualities and how they affect ones soul/spirit/personality...

Fire: Fire is fierce, active, passionate, the cycle has begun, the soul is new, their is excitement, a lust for life, however, communication, experience and wisdom aren't prominent here., and the fire sign may be too impulsive

Earth: Earth is steady, calm, grounded, experience has grown here, you are not as impulsive, more careful and less impulsive, but you may be stubborn in your ways..

Air: The sign of thought and intellectual pursuits, you realize that there is more than one way of thinking, that there are many cultures, many things to learn, you study, you admit that you could be wrong , but intelligence does not equal wisdom...

Water: The calm yet ever changing element, it flows, it is accepting of change, you see the need for creativity, more importantly, you see that right, wrong ... good,evil, it's is all connected, it overlaps yet is separate, but you can't have own without the other, you find balance, wisdom, you realize that life is not black and white, that you can do the wrong thing but for the right reason and vice versa, that sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do for the better good for not only mankind, but for the universe itself, your keen to the chnges of situations like out can feelthe movement of a pond, you are connected.



I hope that helps

[Shatril]

I just read a piece the other day on one of the web astrology pages (and I promptly forgot where) that the decision of mark the signs by the current elements was done by using evidence from the natives and their dominant characteristics. In other words, Fiery Leo, Sagely Aquarius etc. That this origninal placement has proven to be correct seems to say that it was done properly, and in the proper order.

:hugz: Shatril

[plumedsnake]

There are a variety of Element group. They are all comprised of 4 elements and in them the 4 elements are all called fire, water, air and earth. Yet each group is referring to something different.

When Plato discusses the 4 elements in Timaeus, he is not referring to the elements of the zodiac.

The former elements are ordered to reflect a process (a temporal process), fire, earth, water, air and then fire again. This process is best described by alchemy.

The zodiac does not depict a process. Rather it depicts the balance and mutual influence of different aspects of the psyche, including that of the anima mundi.

A good source to study this is Henry Cornelius Agrippa's Three Books of Occult Philosophy. I know Llewellyn publish this in England but I'm not sure about the rest of the world. I guess Amazon might be the best source for finding this book in your local area.

Of especial importance is the 4th chapter of the first book: 'Of a Threefold Consideration of the Elements'

In this he says: There are then, as we have said, four elements, without the perfect knowledge whereof we can effect nothing in magic. Now each of them is threefold. . . . Of the first order are the pure elements, which are neither compounded or changed . . . Of the second order are elements that are compounded, changeable, and impure . . . . Of the third order are those elements, which originally and of themselves are not elements, but are twice compounded various and changeable one into the other.

That's what Agrippa has to say about that but I think the best explanation comes from studying the I Ching, especially the Magic Square of Saturn cos that lays it out quite plainly and numerologically. The first set of elements are the numerals 2, 4, 6, and 8. The second set are 3,5,7,9. IE divided into odd numbers and even numbers. or in another fashion, compound numbers 4 , 6, 8, 9. and then the prime numbers, 2, 3, 5, 7.

Another good source is the Rosary of the Philosophers where we find this:
Note, there is a difference between the element and that which is Elementated, and the Fifth Essence. The Element is the first thing of compoundable matters, from whence neither earth, nor water, nor air, nor fire is a pure element and simple with us, because they are mingled between themselves by course and especially - in that part where they conjoin. But the Fifth Essence is a body standing by itself and differing from all Elements and from things Elementated . . .

Well spotted btw. I hope you have a happy and fruitful research.