Chaos Magick

[Wind]

chaos magick?

[Naillosotarrain]

Very destructive ... I would not recomend playing with it unles you know exactly what you are doing.

[Sequoia]

nasty, volitile, unpredictable stuff.

and that's in the best of controlled cercomstances. Comparing this to playing with fire is like comparing machine guns with tossing nerf balls at someone. In other words. . . very very dangerous.

Rather beautiful, too, if you can pull it off. But I wouldn't reccomend trying. I don't do it. I don't think it'd be a good idea, either, these days. :) unstable!

[Wind]

i dont intend to try it, im just curious what it is, b/c all the sites ive went to explain it in what seems to be like another writing system. quite confusing

[Jaswant]

There is something very redeemable in Chaos Magick, and it is the creation and load of symbols in state of Gnosis. Work about the own will, and create a symbol starting from her, that later implant in the subconscious , is really an useful tool. For example, I write something as: " It is my Will to be healthy"... I make a symbol starting from the letters that compose this sentence and later I meditate on her. Then, I draw the symbol in a label, following the techniques of the Chaos Magick and I hit it on the medicine flask that I am taking. Every time that I take the pill, to see the symbol reminds me my Will, that is the one of feeling well. This has worked to me in many aspects of my life where I have had to reinforce my Will and to remind myself the path that I chose to continue. With some of my patients I have worked on this with a lot of success. I believe that we can always find the good thing in almost everything, and use it consciously for well.
Hugs
:wave:

[*~*Chary*~*]

please note i have deleted this link as Chaos Magick CAN be extemly dangerous to both the user and the used upon and at this time i don't feel comfortable posting it ... however depending on the way things go i may repost it

[Wind]

thanks much

[mol]

Im moving this to Magick....might be a good discussion. :)

[mol]

I just moved a thread about this subject to Magick and Rituals. Go check it out and talk about it.

Its really a good subject that is rarely touched upon.

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth *~*Chary*~*:
please note i have deleted this link as Chaos Magick IS extemyl dangerous to both the user and the used
Oh, blah.

Post a disclaimer: "Kids, don't try this at home!." Then post the link.

You're not responsible for what others do with information, unless you know they intend ill will when you share it with them. Stop trying to protect people from themselves, and let information be free, as it should.

[manstranger]

Yeah. I clicked on choas magick cause i wanted info on choas magick.

I still don't know what it is. Only that it's very destructive, dangerous, and I tend to distrust information that only talks about one side when I suspect there is others.

[Phoenix Blue]

You'll have your best luck doing a Google search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Chaos+magick%22) for "Chaos Magick" (or just click on the link :D). There seems to be a lot of information at ChaosMagic.com (http://www.chaosmagic.com/), but the overall design leaves a lot to be desired. . .

Anyway, at least that's a start.

[Melysande]

Thanks, PB. That chaosmagic site gave a rather nice long definition, I think. (http://www.chaosmagic.com/archives/magic/magic.htm)

From that definition, I see nothing "destructive" about it.

Magick is a tool. Like a knife. It is neither good nor evil. It just depends on what the magick (or the knife) is used for.

[Wind]

all these sites seem like they are written in a different langauge, can someone just spell it out for me? sorry im acting like a child but im just REALLY curious about this subject, and i cant find any straight anwsers.........

[Melysande]

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/8523/87007

**laughs** I was wondering if these were the practices of Discordians. Seems I was right.

Chaos can be so whimsical and liberating.

[*~*Chary*~*]

Orinally posted by phoenix_blue

Oh, blah.

Post a disclaimer: "Kids, don't try this at home!." Then post the link.

You're not responsible for what others do with information, unless you know they intend ill will when you share it with them. Stop trying to protect people from themselves, and let information be free, as it should.



Let me take this opportunity to say that I do not feel comfortable being the one to post this so therefore I have decided not to ... this is not protecting people from themselves this is my decision NOT to post this ... for the time being at least

and slightly OT but quickly ... i do not believe ALL information SHOULD be free .... if terrorist like Osama Bin Laden persay had access to ALL information for FREE do u think we'd still be living ? Please if you are going to answer either do so through PM or create a new thread as this isn't the topic in here thankyou

Chary xx

[shnen]

In response to your less then mature comment PB...

I believe here we are a community here, and if we just throw out info and not get into the repercussions and warnings (and no, not childish ones) then we are failing as a community. Not saying we are responsible for their actions, but they still need to know the dangers that lie in such things as chaos magick.

[Melysande]

Wind, I think the reason you're having a hard time getting any straight answers is because, as it says in the definition link I gave, if you really define "chaos" you're not defining "chaos" because you're imposing order on it, and therefore robbing chaos of its chaotic nature.

From the text I've read so far, it seems that chaos mages use whatever methods work for them, regardless of where the methods come from, to achieve whatever magickal ends they are looking to achieve.

Each Chaos magician apparently has a different spin on things (dependent on their beliefs or lack thereof), but they all seem to agree that "what is true, isn't really true" and that "everything is permitted."

It seems quite fascinating.


**edited a typo**

[Myst]

Oh if those of us who think we know everything really did :rolleyes:

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth *~*Chary*~*:
Let me take this opportunity to say that I do not feel comfortable being the one to post this so therefore I have decided not to ... this is not protecting people from themselves this is my decision NOT to post this ... for the time being at least.
That's fine.

I just think that it's more mature to give someone enough information to make their own judgment, rather than declare, "Yeah, I know about it, but it's too dangerous to share." Information, in and of itself, is no more dangerous than a slinky.

Hél, the whole point of communication is sharing information. If you're not going to do that, why bother communicating at all?

As to your other question. . . think about this: If all information were in the open, including the actions of those who would perpetrate grave acts against others, do you think those individuals could carry out their foul schemes?

[Melysande]

Myst.... was that comment to me?

[Phoenix Blue]

I'm not sure it's possible to know about whom Myst referred without more clarification on her part. . ?

[*~*Chary*~*]

i'm not saying i know about it but it's too dangerous to share .. i am saying i know about it ... i amnt comfortable with sharing .. you'll have to ask someone else i'm sorry

and i'm gonna PM u in a bit about that other topic cos i am interested

[Myst]

PB just because you don't know information that is dangerous doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

And no that post didn't have a name in it in the first place because it isn't directed at anyone. It is a general comment. My cynicism tends to leak out sometimes :)

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth shnen:
I believe here we are a community here, and if we just throw out info and not get into the repercussions and warnings (and no, not childish ones) then we are failing as a community. Not saying we are responsible for their actions, but they still need to know the dangers that lie in such things as chaos magick.
Where did I say "don't get into the repercussions and warnings"? That's part of the information you would want to share, isn't it? And I specifically suggested adding a disclaimer to the links provided.

But then, why would you want to give some vague "this is too dangerous for you" warning, and nothing else? You're not providing any proof that it's dangerous; you're not providing the information requested. All you're doing is lording your knowledge over other people.

[Melysande]

**smiles** Okay. **feels better** I didn't know if I came off as a know-it-all in my post to Wind. I was just sharing what I'd found.

[Phoenix Blue]

Originally posted by Myst
PB just because you don't know information that is dangerous doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

And no that post didn't have a name in it in the first place because it isn't directed at anyone. It is a general comment. My cynicism tends to leak out sometimes :)
Uh huh. . . :p I hear ya, there.

But what I'm saying is that information, in and of itself, cannot be dangerous. Instructions on how to build a nuclear bomb are perfectly safe by themselves--because the words are not going to sprout hands and make the bomb. It takes a human being with the will to process that information to make the information either useful, dangerous, or both.

[Myst]

I agree with you there PB but what we have here is over 2500 people we may not know the motivations or ethics of.

Chary doesn't know me from a beggar on the street, would you teach that beggar how to launch a nuclear weapon and stand him in front of one?

The point is it can be dangerous to oneself or others on a magical/astral level. The wrong people can use it easily for the wrong means. That's *why* it's not common knowledge.

[*~*Chary*~*]

PB i am glad to say you have just illustrated my point perfectly

information on how to build a nuclear bomb is harmless by itself ... let it get into the wrong hand and ***poof*** were gone bye bye

its the same with chaos magick we post all this "HARMLESS" information on a site that "ANYONE" can see and oops along comes either a naive impressionable mind or an evil crooked mind whatever and ***poof*** catastrophe

and thankyou Myst thats exactly what i am trying to say

[Naillosotarrain]

Okay folks, you wanted information on this topic, here it is.

http://www.xeper.org/wpridgen/antinomian.html

If you are able to disect it and understand it all the better, if not then it's not for you.

The definitions you have all been reading are for something that I consider is not true Chaos Magick, but only a modern approach to magick, as they were originally derived in the mid-20th century. If those definitions were true, then we would all be Chaotes in one sense or another.

[Xander67]

PB In response to your post about Amber K.

I used her quote to illustrate a point.
when we have the attitude that we know all of the cosmic and natural laws, what we have done is essential closed our minds to new expierences and greater awareness..

do we really know all of the principles?

we thought we had a rough idea of how old the human race was.
but does that mean that the skull they found in Africa didnt exist, ?? no, and now textbooks have to be re-written...

I did not post on chaos magic as i was not sure how what I had to say would be taken...

to me, it is a form of art... an individual experience and working with tecniques that work for you...

what works for you, does not always work for another....

it is the connection to our higher self, (working with our subconscious or alpha state) that is one of the key prerequisites..

and haveing a closed mind limits your growth and can create a dangerous situation for anyone practicing it....

some people practice it and dont even realise they are, or maybe they do and just keep quiet...

I personally bellieve that there are laws of nature and laws of the universe that we have yet to learn... and what a better way to learn than to apply some of the Chaos magic tecniques and work with our higher self to discover new things :)

[Melysande]

**grins** Thank you, Naillos. (For the link as well as for answering an unasked question of mine.)

[Wind]

come on guys, can we please stop the bickering, im trying to actually learn something, not witness some fight about whose right and whose wrong. I doubt that Mol intended for stuff like to happen when he created this place for us. It seems that whenever someones brings up a semi-good topic it turns into one huge argument completely going off topic. i dont mean this as an insult to anyone, and yes, i understand people are going to disagree, but some on, lets be civil and try to help some of us young'ins learn something.....

~*steps off soap box*~

with that being said........... i understand, even though its contridictory to understand, the nature of choas, but what dose the choas theory have to do with pagans? and why do all these chaos magick sites have stuff about nazis and satan.......im so confused..........

[Phoenix Blue]

Nallios, the link you provided leads to the Temple of Set. Setianism and Chaos Magick are no more related than Wicca and Chaos Magick, at least, not as far as I can tell.


Quoth *~*Chary*~*:
information on how to build a nuclear bomb is harmless by itself ... let it get into the wrong hand and ***poof*** were gone bye bye
A determined mind will fulfill its will whether the information is freely available or not. Chicken Little scenarios which involve dastardly villians are the refuge of tyrants.

Y'see, there's a huge difference between reading how to assemble a nuclear bomb, and acquiring the materials to do so. In fact, materiel acquisition is the hurdle that has prevented Iran and Iraq from having nuclear weapons for the past 20 years. Again, that point is tangential at best. . . but if you think the process of building a nuclear bomb is a secret, you're wrong.


its the same with chaos magick we post all this "HARMLESS" information on a site that "ANYONE" can see and oops along comes either a naive impressionable mind or an evil crooked mind whatever and ***poof*** catastrophe
What you call catastrophe, I call natural selection. Some people ignore the "Remain Seated" signs on roller coasters. Some of those people suffer grievous injuries, or even death, for ignoring those signs. I don't see a problem here. . .

And for all these dire warnings of catastrophe you're throwing around, the only individuals I've ever seen harmed by any sort of majick was the individuals attempting to wield it.

[Myst]

*sighs*

We're discussing why this information should or not be shared, and so on, Wind. I think that's a pretty good discussion myself.

You're missing the point entirely.

Why do you *think* chaos magic has to do with satanism and nazis?

[*~*Chary*~*]

ok last little speech i promise .... i do not think that anyone here WAS bickering ... merely having a rational debate into whether or not the holding back of information was right or not


***gets off soapbox***

that, said there is enough information here and i recommend Naillos's link to let you all in on chaos magick so there is no need for me to post, however i couldnt have chosen a bettr link than that Nailosotarrain used

[Wind]

o, no, i didnt say i thought it had to do with that, its just that ive been to a few sites and satan and nazis seem to a appear on a bunch of them

[Myst]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue
Y'see, there's a huge difference between reading how to assemble a nuclear bomb, and acquiring the materials to do so. In fact, materiel acquisition is the hurdle that has prevented Iran and Iraq from having nuclear weapons for the past 20 years. Again, that point is tangential at best. . . but if you think the process of building a nuclear bomb is a secret, you're wrong.

The point being the materials needed for this magic *are* freely available.


And for all these dire warnings of catastrophe you're throwing around, the only individuals I've ever seen harmed by any sort of majick was the individuals attempting to wield it.

Well then that's a nice little world you live in but many of us would likely disagree.

[Myst]

Yeah.

Setians are so fluffy and calm..

*nods vigorously*

[Melysande]

**comments while still reading that link**

For all of the big words on this link, I can appreciate the time and effort that went into making it so well-defined.

I'm still not crazy about the whole LHP vs. RHP thing, but I can understand how the ancient Egyptians (sidenote: love that icon of Seth), would have appreciated this, too. They had temples for Ma'at (who embodied maat~order) and temples for Seth (who embodied isfet~chaos). It was never the ancient Egyptian goal to get rid of isfet entirely, but rather to see that maat didn't disappear entirely because of the amount of isfet in the world.

[Wind]

ok, im sorry about the bickering comment, i guess i interpreted it the wrong way.....

[Myst]

You know, till I saw Set written as Seth I never realized why that name has been so prominent in my life. I won't get into detail (as it's OT) but it's uncanny.

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth Myst:
The point being the materials needed for this magic *are* freely available.
**Nods** True enough. They always have been. The control of information is the only means by which hierarchies can maintain their power within religious communities.

Really, I suspect at least part of the divide here stems from an Eclectic vs. Traditionalist viewpoint. Personally, I believe most people have the capacity to judge for themselves whether or not they're ready to delve into something. That doesn't mean they won't lie to themselves about their readiness. . . but if someone's dishonest with herself, she probably shouldn't be practicing any form of majick anyway.


Well then that's a nice little world you live in but many of us would likely disagree.
Then provide some sort of evidence to that effect. Even anecdotal evidence would be helpful. Don't just dismiss my point if you can't refute it with your own experiences.

[Melysande]

**grins** From the stuff I've been learning about spellings of Kemetic words, names ending in a "t" sound that don't have the "h" are feminine and those that do have the "h" (which is apparently silent or at least not pronounced as a combined sound) are masculine.

Ack. Missed my point for writing this. My point was just that that was the reason behind why I spell it with an "h" on the end. I don't want to disrespect him accidentally by making him a her.

Don't know if it's right or not, but why bother ticking off a god of chaos, nai?

[Myst]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue
Then provide some sort of evidence to that effect. Even anecdotal evidence would be helpful. Don't just dismiss my point if you can't refute it with your own experiences.

Why assume I can't refute them; would I have said that if I couldn't? No you wouldn't be aware of the nightmares I've had, how my dad's been sick for the past 6 years because someone went after him in hatred for me, or the poltergeists, or the spiritual trip wires, the charged incense, any of it. Believe me, I'd be happy if the only person to worry about in this were oneself but unfortunately no.

As it is I have to redo the shields, wards, and cleansing, at least once daily.

[Myst]

Originally posted by Melysande
**grins** From the stuff I've been learning about spellings of Kemetic words, names ending in a "t" sound that don't have the "h" are feminine and those that do have the "h" (which is apparently silent or at least not pronounced as a combined sound) are masculine.

Ack. Missed my point for writing this. My point was just that that was the reason behind why I spell it with an "h" on the end. I don't want to disrespect him accidentally by making him a her.

Thank you for clarifying that. I've been thinking about starting a thread in G&G or T&P saying "Melysande, please just tell me everything you know and give me links for Egyptian info".

*singsong voice* Aset is calling me...

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth Myst:
Why assume I can't refute them; would I have said that if I couldn't?
Probably because, if I were in the same position and had something to refute such a statement, I would. :) That's the point of debate.


No you wouldn't be aware of the nightmares I've had, how my dad's been sick for the past 6 years because someone went after him in hatred for me, or the poltergeists, or the spiritual trip wires, the charged incense, any of it.
You're right, I wouldn't; it's none of my business in any event. But I do regret that you do have to undergo that sort of ordeal. And if I can ever help in any way. . . :) let me know?

**Shrugs** I don't know if I've had people try to perform spellwork against me or not, honestly. I'd be surprised, given some of the nastier fights on B'Net, if some folks hadn't tried. Again, in my own experience. . . nothing that might have been directed against me has ever worked.

[Melysande]

From what I gathered about that site, it seems that Chaos magick is about being on the LHP and using the powers of Chaos (embodied by Seth or any of several other gods and goddesses of chaos) as well as any other eclectic means at one's disposal to achieve one's material ends. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

However, if this is so, there's still no reason why those same powers of Chaos can't be used for more philanthropic ends. I mean, I've read how incantations were said as though the magician really were Seth in order to harness the power of chaos to avert a storm or cure a disease or frighten off a chaotic enemy.

[Wind]

i know i sound like such a child, but i need some help here, is there anyway to simplify, i know theres no way to, but can someone just put iit into words with out using som ekind of code? its jsut that the more i read the more confused i become

[Phoenix Blue]

**Nods** Power, like information, is neutral until tinged with intent.

That said; yeah, if I were working with a deity such as Seth, Kali, Morrigan, etc. . . I would advise extreme caution. But if someone wants to do it anyway? **Shrugs** It's their sanity they're messing with.

Besides, I'm sure the Deities in question do reserve the right to say, "No." :p

[Myst]

I thought you would just trust me PB :( :lol:

[Melysande]

**laughs** I definitely need to write that Tameran book. I'm thinking of calling it "Ankh, Udja, Seneb [Life, Wealth, Health] ~ A Guide for the Solitary Tameran." Although, as PB commented, Tamerans For Dummies would probably get better publicity. :)

I'll PM you all of the online info I've got so far, Myst. I'll try to get to it tonight.

[Xander67]

why should anyone have to provide evidence to prove anything PB..

Last night when we were talking about the summer of 2000
and everyone who was in on the discussion posted thier expierences, that took guts!

and here, we are haveing an interesting conversation...

shareing expierences..and Im sure that as we are posting, we are sorta recalling our memories, and to ask for PROOF, that is almost like saying you dont believe what they are saying..

just my opinion,

[Myst]

Yeah like me, after working with Hekate for over a year

*shakes head*

hehe I had NO IDEA what I was getting myself into :)

[Phoenix Blue]

Okay, here's a quick breakdown of terminology:

LHP: Left-Hand Path. Focuses generally on the Self, and more specifically on self-knowledge. It complements:

RHP: Right-Hand Path. Focuses generally on workings with the Divine, and the sublimation of the Self.

**Smiles** I'll probably come back and edit this as needed.

[Myst]

Actually that PB asked for some sort of backup to what I said is fine with me. I would've probably done the same if I were him.

Keep an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out. hehe you think I believe every unsubstantiated claim people post here :)

[Wind]

ok, this is all starting to make some kind of sense..... oh, one more question why are inverted pentagrams used? from what i was taught inverted pentagrams were associated with satanism and a more "dark" side of magick. But like i said, im still quite uneducated so im probally WAY off...

[Xander67]

heheh :)

no not at all Myst, :) hehe i wonder bout some of the things I get told here too..

and hey, I have nothing to hide either , if anyone wants to know anything about me, just ask..

I think that some people have the wrong idea when they hear the term "chaos magic"

I know when I first heard of it, I thought it had something to do with "cospiracy theory , and the whole eveyone is out to get me thing"

then when I found out that it actually was something that can help one to live a better life, and to understand and grow..

what a PLEASANT disappointment that was :)

[Melysande]

It represents the Horned God, as the symbol of nature and things of the earth, which also included things hidden in the earth, like gold and jewels, as well as earthly pleasures, rather than divine or spiritual things.

It's because that's what the Left-Hand Path is all about.

[Melysande]

It probably has other meanings, too.

Like, I know that each one of the points on the star has a meaning, and that the two on the bottom of a right-side up star are supposed to be the material things and earthly delights (not by name.... I can't remember what the actual things are, so I'm using my own way of thinking of them). By turning the star upside down, it emphasizes those two things that please the self materially (because now they are on top), rather than spirituality and Oneness with the Divine.

**edited for a little more clarity**

[Wind]

so the assication between satan and the inverted pentagram came from the misconseption of the horned god being satan?

[Melysande]

**shakes head** I'm thinking the second reason is more likely the reason Satanists use it.

I was under the impression that there are some Wiccan traditions where 2nd (?) degree members wear them upside down to show that they are concentrating their study on the god aspects at that point of their training, and they probably got confused with Satanists, who use it (the inverted pentagram) for a different reason.

[Myst]

That is my understanding, Melysande.

One might also look into Baphomet.

[Wind]

o, ok. thanks for clearing that up.... but that raises another question, is CHAOS(i just realized ive been spelling it wrong, man i fell like moron :ack: ) magick associated with "satan"?

[Myst]

yes

in an abstract sense

[Wind]

ok, thanks

[Xander67]

:)
and the Misconception that wiccans worship Satan,
and .... hmmm no, I will keep my mouth shut :)

there are alot of misconceptions, and if you look at where they come from, and their motives for feeding you that crapola...

Control, hindering your growth, etc.......

Oh by the way Myst,
I have been reading the Road to Osiris it is about ancient Egyptians and how they were well knowledged in things like interdimensional travel, and quantum phyisics, really fascenating stuff :)

[Myst]

Incidentally, I mean Satan as a representation of self preservation, self centeredness, egoism, and so on. Satan in Satanism is really more of an archetype for being stuck on oneself and material things, rather then the divine and such (going back to Melysande's second explanation of the inverted pentagram). God represents working for others, working for Heaven, working to be one with God, whereas Satan represents putting oneself first.

So don't think of it as the Christian Satan, but as a symbol of living for oneself.

[Wind]

so, maybe i shouldnt be looking at this in terms of good and evil, but more as a way of thinking....... is this on the right track?

[Xander67]

:eek:
whew,
good thing I checked again before I poseted :)

:rolleyes: * rips up my "I dont believe there is a Satan post" :)

[*~*Chary*~*]

yes in a way ... but then satsnist dont really worship SATAN do they ...

a quick breakdown in a way i think of it

Left hand path ... chaos ... u depend upon yourself to control and perform the magick. you are responsible for what you do no one else. if something goes wrong you ask yourself where did I go wrong

Right hand path ... you look more towards the influences of spirits, divinity etc etc ... if something goes wring you think: maybe it wasnt supposed to be

Chaos is in the likliness of satanism in the way that you seek to achieve all that you can be through yourself and using any means of achieving that ... i hope i am making sense here if i'm not tell me and i'll try again

[Wind]

ooo, ok. wow this is starting to make sense.... scarry

[Wind]

yeah, i agree with u xander. i dont belive in the idea of satan, but i was just questioing if this way of thinking did, but now i understand.

[Xander67]

Interesting concept Chary, :)

useing ones inner abilties to create a better life for themself...
useing you inner self and working with the flow...

"Use the Force Luke""

:)

Jedis are chaos Mages :) oh yeah baby! this makes soooooo much sense... ok, George Lucas really must ahve knew what he was talking about :)

Luke Skywalker, Son of Darth Vader

Luke was a jedi knight... but his father was of the dark side

What a concept!!!! Light and Darkness, Duality

[Wind]

heh, funny, but also a great way to look at it

[Myst]

Originally posted by Wind
so, maybe i shouldnt be looking at this in terms of good and evil, but more as a way of thinking....... is this on the right track?

Understand this - good and evil *are* ways of thinking. They are just value judgments we place on things. We think of being self centered as evil. We think of working for the divine and for others good. Don't get stuck on the concepts of good and evil.

[Wind]

o..... ok, i see what u mean myst

[*~*Chary*~*]

the hard thing about chaos is ... you cant define it .. because to define it is to take the chaos away from it and replace it with order

[Wind]

i think the problem, or my own biggest problem, is that we are raised in this world were everything thing has to be put in terms of good and evil. In a world of heros and villians it hard to graso a consept that throws that out the window. But im starting to understand......

[*~*Chary*~*]

Originally Posted By Myst on 03-17-2002 07:46 PM

Yes, good and evil are human concepts. Do you suppose the lion thinks herself evil when she takes down food? Do you suppose a housecat thinks himself good when he cuddles with you when you're sad?

If a serial murder is shot down you might think it good - but then he would've thought it evil, no? Thus the concept of good and evil is subjective as well. Even in the case of human laws, they are created according to society (a large group of people)'s ideas of good and evil.

There is positive and negative, but even then they are subject to observation and classification into "good" and "bad". For instance a fire that destroys a forest is negative, and yet you might consider it "evil" for the forest animals, and yet "good" for the new plants that wouldn't have been born if it hadn't happened. Another example is the death of a relationship - it is negative, and you might consider it "evil". But then, if the relationship was no longer a positive thing for either party, then it would be "good" that it ended.

Positive and negative exist. They just *are*, and they seek to achieve balance. Divinity exists in archetypes that symbolize positive and negative, but as All divinity is both and neither. It is only human classification that labels them as "good" or "bad".


i think this could be relevant here

[Xander67]

I dont think anyone can define it, because it is an individual
understanding.. yeah , sure we have the foundation that is common, but then how one person would see it, would differ from how another sees it...

you can point the way and help someone along in thier journey, but then when they reach a certain point, they have to expierence it for themselves to understand

[Naillosotarrain]

Now for the reason true Chaos Magik is so dangerous, I know this beacause I used to use it; and why I do not want to post about it.

I almost destroyed and ripped an entire city to shreds, and this was in the Physical Plane.

This is why I do not want to post a definition of it or a "how to" thread. As I said earlier in my last post, the majority of the "definitions" you will find in the WWW define something that is a modern rendition of traditional practices, and not "true" Chaos Magik. It is not a form of magik that I would suggest anyone even attempt to experiment with, as it truly is destructive in every essence of the word.

[*~*Chary*~*]

I dont think anyone can define it, because it is an individual understanding

i think ... sorta

although you CANT define it and leave it as chaos because thats impossible

to define something is to label it and to replace with order, hence it is no longer chaos

[Xander67]

Nods in agreement with Nailous...

this is an important statement.

in todays, "the public has a right to know" attitude...

there are some things that would be best kept from them...
knowledge in the wrong hands can be dangerous.

[Haedis]

Charys definitions:

"Left hand path ... chaos ... u depend upon yourself to control and perform the magick. you are responsible for what you do no one else. if something goes wrong you ask yourself where did I go wrong
Right hand path ... you look more towards the influences of spirits, divinity etc etc ... if something goes wring you think: maybe it wasnt supposed to be"

So by this rationale since I work magick while relying on myself rather than divinity (as I mentioned in a recent post) I'm practicing a form of chaos magick? Hmm its very likely I missed the point here.

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth Naillosotarrain:
I almost destroyed and ripped an entire city to shreds, and this was in the Physical Plane.
This is exactly the sort of claim I steadfastly refuse to believe without some supporting evidence.

"Almost destroyed and ripped an entire city to shreds." Which city? Boston? New York? What happened? What corroborating events could lend some credibility to your account of what happened? Who else was with you at the time?

[Xander67]

continuation of last post.....

you wouldnt want to give a 12 year old who never learned how to drive, the keys to a brand new mercedes and let him drive on the freeway during rush hour, he would most likely harm himself and others

[Myst]

Haedis - Nope, you'll notice that she didn't mention chaos magic in that post at all.

Neither LHP or RHP are synonymous with chaos magic. We were getting off on a tangent there as far as Satanism and Setians and all that.

[Phoenix Blue]

Sayeth Xander67:
this is an important statement.

in todays, "the public has a right to know" attitude...

there are some things that would be best kept from them...
knowledge in the wrong hands can be dangerous.
Okay, so, what makes you worthy to know it, and not Joe Broadway, my next door neighbor?

[Wind]

yet again xander, great point

[*~*Chary*~*]

yes haedis in a way u ARE practicing a form of chaos magick ... in a way - a small way and also the same could be said that u were also practicing an abstract segment of satanism because they also follow something similar

Oh and phoenix_Blue do you believe in Divnity ??

[Haedis]

the reason I was asking, Myst is because she typed "left hand path...chaos"

[Myst]

PB I understand how you feel there. It's not a matter of someone giving to those who are 'worthy'.

Again, back to my analogy, it's like not knowing when you were a child what it's like for mommy to *have* to go to work everyday, what bills mommy had to pay, and why mommy couldn't just bring a puppy home. It wasn't because you weren't good enough to know, or even necessarily old enough, it was because you hadn't experienced it.

Something that has been undeniably noticeable in my life lately is that what can be taught or read is minute compared to the knowledge that is out there. If you can draw the connections you are meant to, if you can't yourself, you aren't.

It's not because you're not worthy or are, that's just the way it is. It's the same reason why some people can read tarot and some can't - for some the connections can be made, for others they just can't. Not because someone isn't worthy, but because it isn't for them.

[Myst]

Originally posted by Haedis
the reason I was asking, Myst is because she typed "left hand path...chaos"

chaos, yes. chaos magic? not in my mind.. I'm going to have to disagree entirely that left hand necessarily has anything to do with chaos magic. That's like saying you can cook with herbs so you know herb magic. Nope.

The left hand path and right hand path are just abstract classifications that aren't very clearly defined in the first place. Chaos magic may be related to the LHP but no not equitable in my mind at all.

[Melysande]

I have a question.... **tentatively raises hand**

Why is it that just Chaos magick is too volatile to be used? Why can't that be said of any magick? If I wanted to focus my magickal will to kill a rich relative with magick rather than by mundane means so that I get an inheritance, what is the difference between using whatever magickal ability I possess and use currently and using Chaos magick? Or is there a difference?

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth *~*Chary*~*:
oh and PB ... do u believ in divinity
Before you go any further with that line of thought. . .

There's a world of difference between "I believe God exists," and "God exists." The former is a statement of faith; the second is an assertion of fact.

If you still think your question has any bearing on this discussion. . . yes, I believe in Divinity, through my own personal experiences. It isn't something I can or would try to prove to others--beliefs by definition can be neither proven nor disproven.

[*~*Chary*~*]

Myst i am agreeing with you hear ... what i meant by Leaft hand path - Chaos was that generally you will find that chaos is more associated with the left hand path rather than the right ..... and when i say that Haedis IS practicing a small amount of chaos magick ... i mean a VERY small way ... i mean that she follows some of the things that SOme chaotes foloow too ... not to say that she IS a chaote or IS performing TRUE chaos magick

am i making any sense at all or do i need to go and rephrase a few things

[Haedis]

Thanks for the clairification, Myst.

[Xander67]

sorta like Art,
you can try and teach someone to paint, but unless they are able to express themselves .. or get a feel for the brush, and master the basic stroke tecniques... they wont get it

I did not mean to associate it with anyone being worthy or not, it was more of a "not telling the masses to ensure public safety" type thing :)

[Myst]

Originally posted by Melysande
I have a question.... **tentatively raises hand**

Why is it that just Chaos magick is too volatile to be used? Why can't that be said of any magick? If I wanted to focus my magickal will to kill a rich relative with magick rather than by mundane means so that I get an inheritance, what is the difference between using whatever magickal ability I possess and use currently and using Chaos magick? Or is there a difference?

Look at the word. Chaos. Chaos magic is inherently chaotic. Normal magic is not based on chaos. Chaos is dangerous because we're used to order and for the most part like order. Chaos is more dangerous then negative magic of the normal kind because at least with negative stuff has some purpose, some direction, some possibly pre-guessed result.

It's the difference between shooting someone 6x and closing your eyes, spinning, and shooting 6 bullets randomly. You may even shoot yourself if you, say, shoot something that somehow ricochets the bullets back.

[*~*Chary*~*]

yes, I believe in Divinity, through my own personal experiences. It isn't something I can or would try to prove to others--beliefs by definition can be neither proven nor disproven.

then as you say it is FAITH ... which relies on believing in something that requires no proof no? Thus the concept of you needing PROOF for everything else seems contradictory ... if you can believe that god existed why not that Naillous nearly destroyed an entire city ??



Why is it that just Chaos magick is too volatile to be used? Why can't that be said of any magick? If I wanted to focus my magickal will to kill a rich relative with magick rather than by mundane means so that I get an inheritance, what is the difference between using whatever magickal ability I possess and use currently and using Chaos magick? Or is there a difference?

ok i am gonna TRY and answer this
Chaos magick has no Limits or guidelines like ordinary magick which is focused and binded in a way
and so the destruction of a magick which is not limited or guided with a sense of ORDER is far more than that of one that Is limited by order ... u getting me ... it can do ANYTHING

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth Myst:
Again, back to my analogy, it's like not knowing when you were a child what it's like for mommy to *have* to go to work everyday, what bills mommy had to pay, and why mommy couldn't just bring a puppy home. It wasn't because you weren't good enough to know, or even necessarily old enough, it was because you hadn't experienced it.
That's logical enough. But there's one whopper of a difference between the analogy and our situation in this forum: in this forum, we're all adults and are all capable of making the judgment call for ourselves whether or not we're able to understand something.

:) That's not necessarily true everywhere, I'll grant you that. But so far as I've seen, everyone here posesses the mental capacity to decide whether or not they want to know more about a given topic.

[Melysande]

Kind of like why I'd invoke Ma'at for divine justice on PB's ex- and not invoke Sekhmet (who would probably indescriminately flatten the ex- and her child, too)?

[Myst]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue
That's logical enough. But there's one whopper of a difference between the analogy and our situation in this forum: in this forum, we're all adults and are all capable of making the judgment call for ourselves whether or not we're able to understand something.

Again, don't agree. There are over 2500 people here, almost all of which I don't know. I don't know their maturity, motives, ethics, anything. I don't know if they're adults, I don't know if they're sane, I don't know if they're criminals.

[Xander67]

and no one said you werent worthy either :nyah: :)

you wont find any threads on it, but I am sure if you want to learn, there are people here that can help you begin the jouney :) but I think it is not meant for Public consumption.

[*~*Chary*~*]

Exactly Myst, thats what i have been trying to get at since this thread opened

[Myst]

Originally posted by Melysande
Kind of like why I'd invoke Ma'at for divine justice on PB's ex- and not invoke Sekhmet (who would probably indescriminately flatten the ex- and her child, too)?

Yeah except Sekhmet might squash you or your loved ones too in the process...

[Xander67]

gotta be carefull when working with Egyptian Dieties :)

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth *~*Chary*~*:
then as you say it is FAITH ... which relies on believing in something that requires no proof no? Thus the concept of you needing PROOF for everything else seems contradictory ... if you can believe that god existed why not that Naillous nearly destroyed an entire city ??
Okay, I thought I addressed this already:

Statement of Belief: Cannot be proven or disproven. Therefore, requires no proof for or against.
Statement of Fact: Can be proven or disproven, and must be either true or untrue.


ok i am gonna TRY and answer this
Chaos magick has no Limits or guidelines like ordinary magick which is focused and binded in a way
That makes sense. In effect, you're playing with a bigger set of toys. . .

[*~*Chary*~*]

exactly so for symbolism or an archetype M'at is like ORDER and Sekhmet is like Chaos

the repurcussions of Sekhmet could be ANYTHING whereas with ma'at it would fall into some sort of expectedness

[Melysande]

New question.... Now that people (including me) who've never heard of it before have read this thread, does it matter whether you give them websites or not? If they're of a mind to, wouldn't they just be able to use their knowledge of its very existence (just by reading the title of the thread and not reading the posts it contains) to try to do their own version of a chaos magick spell?

Does this make me a devil's advocate now? (Kidding.)


Please note, that was actually not a question that really needs an answer. Now that I've gotten enough info to satisfy my curiosity, the whole thread can be deleted, for all I care. :)

[*~*Chary*~*]

well ... thats what has been said from the beginning and my answer to that would be

Well ... if they are meant to find it ... they will go out and they WILL find it ... if their not they will go out find SOMETHING but not it or maybe not even look

hence the diference ... if i was to give u all the link to i then anyone could look at it even if they werent meant to you see my point ?

[Melysande]

**grins** Yep. I do see. Much obliged. (You were responding at the same time I was editing.)

[Xander67]

I dont think so,

We have only touched on concepts and Ideas,,

as for the mechanics, and the Tecniques, they wont be found here

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth Myst:
Again, don't agree. There are over 2500 people here, almost all of which I don't know. I don't know their maturity, motives, ethics, anything. I don't know if they're adults, I don't know if they're sane, I don't know if they're criminals.
But there-again. . . how responsible are you for their conduct?

Some information carries legal responsibility with its publication--someone's home address, for example. But majickal information, which is freely available all over the 'Net anyway?

[Melysande]

Sekhmet frightens me, but she has her purpose in the scheme of things. (I just prefer the use of her in medicine, rather than in vengeance.) If I had a need of her (and believe you me, it'd have to be pretty damned dire for me to call on her), I don't think she'd flatten me.

But who knows...? **grins**

[*~*Chary*~*]

Okay, I thought I addressed this already:

Statement of Belief: Cannot be proven or disproven. Therefore, requires no proof for or against.
Statement of Fact: Can be proven or disproven, and must be either true or untrue.


ok but think about this

what if Nailous said it was true because HE believed it sooo much that his entire body and mind told him it was true ... therefore he states a fact according to what he "knows" to be true

Can that be proven, disproven .... no as it is within himself

and no i am not saying that it did or did not happen at the moment

[Wind]

big thanks for all of u who helped, i think i now have a small understanding and respect for this force. again, thanks for the help.

[Myst]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue

But there-again. . . how responsible are you for their conduct?

Some information carries legal responsibility with its publication--someone's home address, for example.

Would you give a gun to a child?

Nope.

Can a child get a gun themselves? Obviously.

[Melysande]

**smiles** I second Wind's thanks. This has been an interesting and enlightening discussion. Much obliged to all participants.

**has the ability to escape from prison, er WORK, now**

:wave: Later, all! :)

[Phoenix Blue]

Once again, though, the flaw in your analogy is that we're adults here--or at least (with deference to the teens) we're adult enough to know right from wrong, not to touch a burning stove, etc.

It shouldn't be so much to ask to be treated like an adult.

[*~*Chary*~*]

off topic here .... just a quick 1 on 1 to melysande

hun its the same with bast
Although she is many other things .. she is also the goddess of destruction and sometimes bvengeance like sekhmet she can be VERY dangerous however it is also true that sekhmet AND BAST can both be very gentle and loving ... no ?


ok back on topic

[Naillosotarrain]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue
Who else was with you at the time?

A Druid who is also my original mentor, as well as several other mages; a few of which ARE Chaotes.

[Wind]

see, no offense, thats were your wrong PB, i no alot of mmbers of this community are in their teens, how do i know? i am one, and know lots of them here. and lots of they are depressed/confused/and angry, just imagine if someone posted techniques on to control this extremly distrucive force. all the power, and strenght, its appealing to teens, u think none of them would try it? try it against someone else?? if one of the more knoledgeable pagans posted info about this power, that would extremly irresponsibly.......... to qoute stan lee; "with great power comes great responsibilty" and the responsibilty with this power, is to make sure it dosent fall into the wrong hands........
~*steps off soap box*~

[*~*Chary*~*]

Once again, though, the flaw in your analogy is that we're adults here--or at least (with deference to the teens) we're adult enough to know right from wrong, not to touch a burning stove, etc.

It shouldn't be so much to ask to be treated like an adult.

ok then look at it this way

Would you give a thirty year old terrorist a nuclear weapon

Nope

Could a 30yr old terrorist get a nuclear bomb? obviously

[Xander67]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue

But there-again. . . how responsible are you for their conduct?

Some information carries legal responsibility with its publication--someone's home address, for example. But majickal information, which is freely available all over the 'Net anyway?

not totaly true....

I had been in a very interesting discussion a while back on MM about the Qaballa, and I had mentioned about how I was going to put some info about the Qaballa on my site....

and I was reminded that not all Qaballistic teachings are meant for public distribution....

there is alot of Magical info online, and there is alot of it that is not :)

[Wind]

please pardon my typos, im trying to keep up with everyone else..... :p

[Myst]

You may be PB. But once again, there's over 2500 people here, most of which I don't know are adults, sane, or anything else.

[Myst]

And to be clear about this, it's not an age thing. I used the child analogy because it's the easiest and the first one I thought of.

[*~*Chary*~*]

exactly Myst ...

Phoenix_Blue

i am sorry but i really do not understand why you arent geting this ... for all we know ... right now ... there is a tortured tormented soul looking at this and if the information was here he would use it against his foes

**edited to fix grammar**

[Myst]

Also something I haven't made clear (I apologize).

There are two parts to this;

The information you can read, research, find on the internet - you will find it yourself if you are meant to. Personally if I had the info I wouldn't give it out because (as some of us discussed this elsewhere at MW) I want no part of it. The kid can find a gun and shoot it himself, but I won't give it to him. I won't give out the means to someone I don't know to shoot themselves or me.

Beyond that - most of this is based on what you can't read/research/find. It's connections you will make through meditation, intuition, and so on. That can't be given to anyone, ever. It's not a matter of 'worthiness'.

[*~*Chary*~*]

well again myst you take my breath away

we sit here trying to get that through to people on 4 pages and you come in type a paragraph and most of us understand

[Phoenix Blue]

Sayeth *~*Chary*~*:
i am sorry but i really do not understand why you arent geting this ... for all we know ... right now ... there is a tortured tormented soul looking at this and if the information was here he would use it against his foes
**Sighs** What I don't get is why this is so black and white, or why people feel it should be.

Maybe it's just me--but if that tortured, tormented soul were here, reading these pages. . . I'd thank my lucky stars he was doing that and not planning another Columbine.

Comparing a nuclear bomb with chaos magick is still a fallacy, by the by: damage done from a nuclear bomb is measurable. If you can't measure damage done through chaos magick, how can you make a basis for comparison? If you can, and the damage is comparable, why haven't I heard about it on the evening news?

[Yvonne Belisle]

As to why someone may be unwilling to be explicit here...have you ever read your dad's porn mags when you weren't supposed to? Kids surf the net and although we like to think that every member here is a responsible person the reality is that anyone can read this website. Some people feel that if they supply someone with something then they are responsible in some small way for that persons actions. I myself feel that way. If I leave a gun where my child can get it and they go out and someone gets killed I am just as guilty as the person who pulled the trigger. I would be an acomplice to the activity I feel that way over this as well.

[*~*Chary*~*]

thankyou yvonne

and PB the reason it isnt on the news is because most people dismiss magick as it bloody well is

and the fact that it isnt measurable proves it is even more dangerous ... a terrorist can measure a certain amount of damage a bomb does ... a chaote can't

it IS dangerous whether you think so or not ... everyone here is telling you that ... i am telling you through my own experiences ... nailous is teling you through own experience

WE DONT WANT PEOPLE THAT SHOULDNT HAVE THIS INFORMATION TO GET IT FROM US

[Myst]

Just because you can't measure damage doesn't mean it should be ignored :)

[CopyrightPolice]

damage done from a nuclear bomb is measurable.

Is it?

Can we measure human suffering? Can we determine what such a detonation would have on our future? Can we measure the butterfly affect? Is anything as catastrophic as the detonation of a nuclear bomb truly measureable? Or are we kidding ourselves?

[Yvonne Belisle]

Let me phrase this in a manner a government man should understand think of it as on a need to know basis if the gods feel you have a need to know they will guide you to it.

[*~*Chary*~*]

well put

[Xander67]

PB,

let me try this one,

think of chaos magick as a computer... and that computer can do almost anything you wish it to do if you know how to commnuicate with the CPU...

knowing the possiblities... would you give such a machine to someone who you do not know? I do believe that with knowledge comes a repsonsibility to keep it safe in order to protect others that may get hurt by giveing information to someone who would only use it for bad.

true, we reap what we sow. but, I feel that we that know, have a certain responsiiblity to use caution in who we provide data...

how would you feel, FOR EXAMPLE, if somoene asked you how to do a spell, (doesnt mater what kind im just useing an example)
and you give them the candles and supplies needed and give them the instructions.... only to find out that they used this spell and say, someone got hurt, or many people got hurt?

would you regret giving him the info? how long would the guilt eat at your spirit?

[PrincessHLHofMW]

Chary, Myst,and Yvonne I couldn't have said it better myself!!
*clapclap* i wanted to comment but it would be pointless since the three of you said exactly what i was thinking

[Sequoia]

chaos magick is dangerous in that you cannot control it once you let it go - you just have to pray that it does what you intended it to do, and there's really no calling it back or curbing it once it starts. It also has a tendancy to do exactly what you DIDN'T want it to do, or simply to act in the flow of the universe, and time, rather than doing what you intended. it's kind of like a cat, in some ways. Yeah, sometimes the cat may listen to you. But you do not control the cat, you cannot train the cat or know exactly what the cat is going to do, and how, and where. It may do exactly what you asked it. It may rip up your beautiful curtains instead. That's the problem with chaos magick - you simply do not know.

There's some stuff that. . . well, although this alone probably tells you that you should just drop the idea. . . there's some things you can only really do fully with chaos magick. The problem is, especially in these cercomstances, you have no control over it once you do your spell or ritual or whatever. You just let that nuke fly. And all you can do is PRAY TO GOD that it hits where you wanted it to hit, rather than say next door or across the world in the wrong country or wherever. This is especially true when you use chaos magick for healing or simple attempts at manipulating or seeing. . . it is inherently destructive. If you're using it for these purposes, you're already pretty darn desperate.

For me, personally, chaos magick is when I am absolutely out of options, when I know that nothing else will work, or sometimes if I go into a battlerage (usually not. . . but it's been known to happen). This is saying a lot - in other words, I try my damndest not to use it. It can be beautiful, it can be incredibly effective. . . . and it can also seriously f*ck you over. It can have physical reactions like nothing else, and it can cause even worse astral/spiritual/etc problems. It is not for the faint of heart, and from personal experience I can say that I have found it to be very drawing and rather corruptive. I woudln't reccomend using it very often. Then again, that's just me. What I call chaos magick may be something entirely different to you. That's another problem - terms and defining them! *chuckles*

An aspect that I havn't heard touched on. . . I'm not sure if this falls under chaos magick or not, but the creation of something (energy, material, whatever) from nothing - I havn't seen this performed in a very, very long time. The once or twice I've seen it happen (and granted it was not this lifetime, not this world. . . so. . . . . so sue me if you wanna. :p I remember it clear as yesterday, and it's up to you whether you belive me or not, but do not try to convince me otherwise, and I won't try to convince you), it was an extremely gruesome thing. The spell went off perfectly, the thing/energy needed was created. . . . and there were huge reprecussions. It wasn't the butterfly causing the monsoon. It was the butterfly causing the supernova causing the destruction of someone's homeworld years before causing someone who was there currently to ah. . . well. . . . become rather confused. It's very difficult to explain. But it tends to have REALLY nasty chaotic effects. . . so would that be considered chaos magick?

I guess it's kind of like saying "well, I followed my strict rules and I worked the spell, and now I can only hope chaos finds some amusement in following those rules, at least until it's done doing what I need it to do."


. . . although you usually end up with your problem solved in a much, much worse way. It's kind of like a wish spell from D&D. You may get those million gold. . . . as they fall from the sky at a height of 10,000ft and strike your head on their way to you.

OT - speaking of Egyptian deities. . . . o_o Bast really seems to like me. I honestly don't know why. She's done me a lot of favours, hasn't really asked for anything in return, and for all intents and purposes feels a hall of a lot more like an older sister or something than anything else when I'm in "contact" with her (y'know, prayer, meditation, etc). She's even given me a gift. . . (PM me if you'd like to know what the heck I'm talking about hehe). So I'm not sure what to think. . . especially since I don't really worship deities anyway!! (I more. . . call on them as friends and equals? yes, yes, I expect to be flamed for that "WHAT?! PUMA THINKS SHE'S A GOD'S EQUAL!?" but the weird thing is, they seem to respond better when I do that then if I like pray and beg and shiat. It's odd. *chuckles* then again, I tend to think of the gods as just higher beings with more knowlage and power, and a better viewpoint than I . . . not the creators of the universe.)


back OT- the biggest problem is, as everyone's been saying. . . with chaos magick, you cannot ultimately control the outcome. You cannot limit it. You cannot tell it to do this and ONLY this, and not do that, that, and that. It will do whatever it damn well pleases. Chaos, to me, seems to have a sort of twisted consiousness of it's own, and that thought pattern rarely listens to what you want unless it has a reason to. And it more often than not will do what you told it in such a way that you get exactly what you asked for, and a halluva lot of other things you wouldnt' wish on your worst enemy. (or maybe you were trying to give it to your worst enemy, and you just learned why you shouldn't spit in the wind)

It's not a matter of "you deserve to know' or "you don't deserve to know." It's not a matter of an elitist society or a bunch of people saying "hey you're a little kiddle so you shouldn't know this nya nya we're better than you!" It's a matter of this - we've done this, we nearly destroyed or killed or what have you, on a scale we REALLY don't want to see happen again. And this was after we learned it from people who had been doing it a long time, who knew to the best of their abilities how to use it, and most often with at least SOMEONE there to help play backup and damage control (which is another reason you don't see it on the nightlies. It REALLY helps to have someone there who also knows what they're doing, to help counterspell or clean up if nessicary. . . also, for heaven's sakes, doesn't anyone remember "weather balloon"?? It may or may not have been a UFO, but whatever it was, they weren't gonna admit the sky was blue over it.)

Look. Phoe-chan, everyone who's been asking incessantly. . . if you really want to know that bad, run a google search. There are some things you have to learn, one on one. You're not going to get a mini-library on the subject. Teachers do exist for a reason, you realize. And most (sane) teachers are not going to run around going "HEY I'LL TEACH ANYONE FOR ANY REASON HEHE LET ME TEACH YOU THE NASTIEST WHOOP-@SS WORK I KNOW!!" Don't expect us to do the same. If we think we can do it safely, we'll share it. If we think it's not right of us to do so, or we feel that it's not the right time. . . don't get your knickers in a twist over it. If I don't feel comfortable sharing my life story with someone, does that make me a snob? If I don't feel comfortable sharing my artwork with someone, does that make me an elitist? Just the same - if I don't feel comfortable sharing information with someone, does this make me some controlling b*tch?

If you really are meant to learn it (and dagnabit, by half you rposts I think you must already know something, and you are doing this deliberately to cause a problem or try to get a point across that we've already acknowlaged, which does not apply to this situation), then you will find a way to learn it. It will be shown to you. Don't keep trying to force your application to yale, it annoys the deans and reduces your chance to get in. Goodness.

a quote or two. . . . "Nature always sides with the hidden flaw."

and of course. . . "Necrohippoflagellaphilia: (n) Love Of Beating A Dead Horse."

one more :D 'cause I'm a scorp - "Never argue with a Scorpio - it's frustrating, and you'll lose, anyway."

[Xander67]

I dont think you can put it any simpler or clearer than that Puma,

wow!

[*~*Chary*~*]

well done Puma :thumbsup: and i know what u mean about bast being an older sister ;)

[PrincessHLHofMW]

very well put puma!

[Xander67]

Originally posted by *~*Chary*~*
well done Puma :thumbsup: and i know what u mean about bast being an older sister ;)

How is your big sis Chary ?? :)
:woah:

[Melysande]

**grins** Now that all of that has been said, I have still another question.

If chaos magick is so uncontrollable, why would you use it? What possible instances exist when you would want to use this type of magick and methodology when so many other, far more controllable ones exist?


OT.... I haven't really been properly introduced to Bast as of yet. I'm working my way slowly through all of the Neteru. I will say though... if you've been gifted, definitely pay attention to her. She may not want to sway you off of whatever path you're on, but she may be viewing you as a beloved. (Seshat's my beloved, but Aset, Ma'at and Heru have staked a claim in JennLand, too.)

**returns the thread to its regularly scheduled discussion**

(P.S., Mol, I hope you're happy now. This has been the most popular place all afternoon. :) )

[Sequoia]

Originally posted by Melysande
**grins** Now that all of that has been said, I have still another question.

If chaos magick is so uncontrollable, why would you use it? What possible instances exist when you would want to use this type of magick and methodology when so many other, far more controllable ones exist?

It's kind of like how. . . . why would anyone use treatments as cruel as radiation therapy or chemotherapy, which often times hurt the patient just as much as the cancer, and then call it a cure? Because you've exhausted all the other options, and you just have this one thing left. Nothing else works.

there are bigger things out there that require something more than a personal protection shield, or wards, or things for more money or better jobs or more luck. . . much bigger things. And I suppose one might wish there werent. But it adds spice to life. Just like spice, however, there is a noticable burn or bad reaction sometimes, and then drastic things call for drastic measures.

Some might think it overkill (and at times, if you're unwise, then yes it is), but. . . in some specific cercomstances, where you're aware of the danger, and you realize you really havn't got a chance with 'normal' magick. . . then you use whatever options nessicary to protect yourself and your loved ones. Or home. Or sacred place.
('course, there's always the random idiot who managed to learn it and seems to think s/he can conquire the world. . . hah. And then you have to counter them. )

Does this help?

[Yvonne Belisle]

And sometimes it is used by a kid who is angry and uncontrolled and they are lashing out without understanding what they are doing.

[*~*Chary*~*]

which is exactly why such techniques should not be readily available

[Xander67]

Exactly!!!

Mely ..... its kinda like,
once you see what you are working with, and realise its potential, you would want to be real careful with it...

like in advertising,,, advertising and art employs a certain degree of psychology, and when it works, it is considered magic to some... and you wouldnt want to leak out your tecniques because your compitition would steal your ideas and your customers..... that is why alot of marketing personell sign an agrement not to diclose information

[Haedis]

ok, I know the repercussions of chaos magick...but in cases where it IS neccessary...how will you really know how to use it? I mean if its too dangerous to practice how can you expect to know what you're doing when the right time comes? Reading about it and doing it are vastly different. I wouldnt feel comfortable using something so dangerous if I had never done it before. And its not something you should use unless all other means were exhausted, right? So what is a person to do?

[Xander67]

I have never used it either, I have never really been to the point where i feel I needed to, but I would say that mabey in this case, you really gotta be sure of the intent and be prepared for any consequences... and the possible harm that can occur while manifesting your intentions

[Myst]

How do you ever know when it's time to do any magic?

You don't. You use your best judgment and go from there.

[Naillosotarrain]

How do you prepare yourself to shoot a man in self-defence if you've never used a gun before? Shooting at paper targets and shooting at real people are two completely separate things. You don't.

There is no practice for someting like that. When the time comes you just know and do and there is nothing else that can be done to prepare yourself.

[Haedis]

Yeah you guys are probably right. It would just seem a lot more dangerous to go into it "cold". But...I'm not planning on using it so it really doesnt matter.

[Xander67]

mabey it is good to at least learn a bit about it, so you will be able to defend yourself should someone be foolish enough to try and use it against you...

you would need a good protection spell

[Xander67]

wait, I ahve second thoughts about waht I jsut said, im not sure if that is wise either

[Haedis]

yeah its hard to know where to draw the line in your studies of it. Especially for me since i have very limited life experience. for that reason ALONE its not something I want to mess with.

[Xander67]

If only more people were like you...:)

[Haedis]

:D

[Naillosotarrain]

If you want to know how to protect yourself against Chaos Magik should it ever be used against you, there is no protection against it. Which is another reason it is so destructive.

Ground yourself, and either you can channel it through you to disperse it, or you can't......

And if too much goes through you than you run the risk of burning out your abilities, quite possibly permanently.

[Phoenix Blue]

I'm going to answer a lot of posts here; so this one's going to be long:

As to why someone may be unwilling to be explicit here...have you ever read your dad's porn mags when you weren't supposed to?

This is actually a good analogy, Yvonne. The dangers of porn are just as overrated in my opinion as the "dangers" of chaos magick.

Feeling responsible for the information you divulge to someone else isn't necessarily a bad thing. I feel the same responsibility myself--I wouldn't willingly give information on how to make a bomb to someone whom I thought was going to use that information to hurt people. So yeah, there's some trust involved.

But I don't see this the same way. And I think you're taking on even more responsibility by denying someone access to accurate information--because then, in an indirect way, you may end up responsible for them finding inaccurate information that's even more dangerous than what you would have shared in the first place.

There're just too many "what-ifs" you guys are using in this argument. If pigs had wings, bacon would be a lot more expensive. . . **shrugs** But they don't, so it isn't. If some kid who were reading this thread decided to use the information he was given. . . again, so what?

The arguments you all have made here would be perfect arguments for abolishing every public library in the United States.

it IS dangerous whether you think so or not ... everyone here is telling you that ... i am telling you through my own experiences ... nailous is teling you through own experience

I've herd nailous' account, Chary, and I don't buy it. He completely avoided answering two questions I asked: one, which city was nearly destroyed; and two, what events coincided with the city's near-destruction?

Just because you can't measure damage doesn't mean it should be ignored :)

Don't get me wrong, Myst: given some non-zero data, I wouldn't ignore it. You've shared a little bit of your own experience. . . and whilst I don't know if the issue there is dangerous knowledge or dangerous and stupid people, the fact that damage was done is pretty clear. But then, you can measure that.

CopyrightPolice: Of course we can measure the effects of nuclear detonation. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are two living memorials to this; as are the blast craters from underground nuclear tests in the Nevada desert.

Let me phrase this in a manner a government man should understand think of it as on a need to know basis if the gods feel you have a need to know they will guide you to it.

Are humans not sometimes tools of the Gods, Yvonne?

No, this argument won't work. I understand the needs to classify information; I also understand that the system of document classification is widely abused to protect information that should not be protected.

how would you feel, FOR EXAMPLE, if somoene asked you how to do a spell, (doesnt mater what kind im just useing an example)
and you give them the candles and supplies needed and give them the instructions.... only to find out that they used this spell and say, someone got hurt, or many people got hurt?

would you regret giving him the info? how long would the guilt eat at your spirit?

Good question, Xander. Having never experienced this, I don't really know. It'd be easy for me to say, "I wouldn't feel guilty, because they chose what to do with what I gave them." But in the actual circumstance. . . **shakes head** I can't tell you.

I can tell you this. You can impart information in degrees. If I give someone information on runes, and colors, and crystals, then it's up to them to assemble the information in such a way as to do good or harm by it. In that circumstance, I'd be no more responsible for good or harm done than Borland was for viruses written in C++.

Puma, your explanation actually explains what you believe to be dangerous about chaos magick, in understandable language. Bravo! **Smiles**

If you want to know how to protect yourself against Chaos Magik should it ever be used against you, there is no protection against it. Which is another reason it is so destructive.

Naillos, again: I don't buy it. I've yet, in all my experience, to see an attack that cannot be defended against. Magick, at its most primal level, is nothing more than energy; and energy can be rediverted, reflected, or otherwise dissipated.

That said; yeah, too much energy at once is a bad thing for someone who can't handle it. And it might explain why so many of the ceremonial magicians I've encountered aren't altogether there.

Anyway, here's where I stand in short: information can be as dangerous as a loaded rifle. . . but it still requires someone to pull the trigger. It's perfectly legal to sell someone a firearm; what they do with that firearm is their responsibility.

[PrincessHLHofMW]

PB the whole reason that not too many people will put a link here is exactly what has been stated....i myslf know mystic wiks has alot of teenagers....and i will admitt we are sometimes angry, volatile,don't-care-what-i-have-to-do-to-get-revenge type of people......just because you havent heard of the near distruction of someplace on the news doesnt mean it didnt happen.....do you think the government is letting the media tell us EVERYTHING thats going on in the mid-east? no...they are keeping their secrets for our protection.........or maybe they never knew about i....Naillos said it was ALMOST distruction....but it wsn't there isa chance no on kne anyting was wrong....

if you wan to go search for the information...fine...thats what i hav done.....i conducted the searches on my own....maybe you wouldnt feel to bad if somethin happeded because of a link you posted...but these people would....you should respect hat...znd respect what they are saying....

p.s. sorry if none of that made sense or if i over stepped my bound i just coldnt sit on the side lines anymore

[Phoenix Blue]

PB the whole reason that not too many people will put a link here is exactly what has been stated....i myslf know mystic wiks has alot of teenagers....and i will admitt we are sometimes angry, volatile,don't-care-what-i-have-to-do-to-get-revenge type of people..
**Nods** Okay. . . but I'd still prefer they listen to me than to Silver Ravenwolf. :cool: It's a matter of perspective, I guess.


....just because you havent heard of the near distruction of someplace on the news doesnt mean it didnt happen..
Conversely, it doesn't mean it did happen.

If I told you that I flew to Denver last night by flapping my arms, would you believe me? **Shakes head** Naillos made a statement of fact; and if he can prove it, then I'll believe it. As it is, I'm still waiting for any details about the event.

I'm not saying, "There's no way this could have happened." I'm saying, "Show me. Tell me. Give me details."


...do you think the government is letting the media tell us EVERYTHING thats going on in the mid-east? no...they are keeping their secrets for our protection....
I don't know that I agree. The media have a lot of interests to protect, but I somehow doubt that we, the American public, count very highly on that list.

In any event, we're at war over there. :) So again, we're comparing apples with oranges.


.....or maybe they never knew about i....Naillos said it was ALMOST distruction....but it wsn't there isa chance no on kne anyting was wrong....
Sure, there was a chance of that. But then, how does it qualify as almost destroying a city? That's why I would need to know more about such a claim before I chose to place any faith in it.

By the way, Tink, never feel bad about speaking your mind. :) That's the point of this whole conversation. . . getting people to share their opinions.

[Yvonne Belisle]

"Silver Ravenwolf" who is this person? I make my own choices and have never read anything by them. Quite simply it is my choice not to share the info thus I will not it is my choice to decide that I feel it is too dangerous to simply toss out info. I stand behind it. You want info research it yourself if you are ment to have the information you will find it, however it won't be from me

[CopyrightPolice]

CopyrightPolice: Of course we can measure the effects of nuclear detonation. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are two living memorials to this; as are the blast craters from underground nuclear tests in the Nevada desert.

Ahh, right. Physical damage, I suppose is the only damage worth considering. Come on, buddy, you seem like a smart guy. Of course we can't accurately measure "damage" done by nuclear bombs ...or magic...simply because there are too many variables we don't have access to, or damages that simply cannot be quantified, such as suffering, loss to the future, loss of potential and possibility, etc. Destruction on such a large scale is never fully measurable. Any economist/sociologist/ecologist could tell us that much.

But, for the record, I agree with you that the dangers of chaos magic are highly overrated. There's an overriding sense of order in the macrocosm at large, and I'm not too concnered about some scrawny "magician" throwing everything out of whack.

[Xander67]

PB

Good question, Xander. Having never experienced this, I don't really know. It'd be easy for me to say, "I wouldn't feel guilty, because they chose what to do with what I gave them." But in the actual circumstance. . . **shakes head** I can't tell you



I can see you seek the knowledge, and if you seek hard enough you will find it... and once you see and understand for yourself, you will understand that no one is trying to deem you unworthy or stop you from discovering it this is something that no one can really "Teach" you...

they can show you how to begin your search.. but it is your own understanding that will show you.. as it is different from person to person...

once you understand the potential of it....
you will understand why we are all so concerned with Safeguarding it...

[Phoenix Blue]

**Laughs** Xan, Xan. . . this isn't about me lacking understanding.

Magickal energy of any sort can be dangerous; just like the same electricity that lets us communicate here can also kill a man effortlessly.

All this about giving people information and how-to, I'm starting to think, is an end-run. The essense of magick is, after all, the Will of the person working it.

You can't tell someone how to work a particular majick--all you can tell them is how you would do it. For instance, if I wanted to heal my own ankle, I would channel energy into my ankle and evnision the fabric of reality re-weaving itself so that my ankle was healed. :) Other folks would just say, "Put some aloe on it." Both, together with the body's natural healing ability, accomplish the same result.

But the responsibility of safeguarding all knowledge related to chaos magick does not belong to you. You may safeguard your own information as you choose, but to impose your own controls over others' information is a judgment call that I don't believe you, myself, or anyone else has the right to make.

[mol]

Originally posted by Naillosotarrain
If you want to know how to protect yourself against Chaos Magik should it ever be used against you, there is no protection against it. Which is another reason it is so destructive.

Ground yourself, and either you can channel it through you to disperse it, or you can't......

And if too much goes through you than you run the risk of burning out your abilities, quite possibly permanently.

*I* know this to not be true.

[mol]

Originally posted by Xander67

once you understand the potential of it....
you will understand why we are all so concerned with Safeguarding it...

Safeguarding?

Are you a *keeper* ?

[mol]

unfolia nictua garamonna shienta

If anyone here discussing knows what that means...then shoot me a pm otherwise I think I am going to bow out of this one. Have fun.

HINT: You wont find it searching on the net. *sigh*

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth mol:
unfolia nictua garamonna shienta

If anyone here discussing knows what that means...then shoot me a pm otherwise I think I am going to bow out of this one. Have fun.
**Shakes head** Shnope, no idea. :bigredgri Sorry!

[WandererInGray]

Withholding knowledge can in itself be dangerous.

*as I look at this from another angle*

People keep using "dangerous" things as examples why knowledge about certain things shouldn't be shared, but let's be honest here, it's only *your* perception that marks it as dangerous.

One could just as easily be looking for information on how to build a bridge...but the master bridge builder has decided that knowledge is too dangerous to share. So the person goes out and looks it up himself. Gets some really rotten information on how to build a bridge, and does so.

Then....(to borrow Chary's phrase)....*poof* catastrophe.

Any kind of knowledge, on any subject....has the potential to be dangerous. *shrugs* That's just the way life is.

But then phrases like "it's for your own good" have never been able to keep me from finding out what I want to know. If I fall down in the process, then I learn the lesson. Sometimes the lessons are a broken nail....sometimes they're more drastic and we have to live with the consequences of our actions.

Living isn't about avoiding all the bad things that happen to you, it's about dealing with those things as best as you can and learning from them.

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth WandererInGray:
But then phrases like "it's for your own good" have never been able to keep me from finding out what I want to know.
You make a lot of good points, Love; but I wanted to focus on this one especially.

The last time someone used the phrase, "It's for your own good," she proceeded to stab a (figurative) sword through my heart. I still bear a scar from that; and as a result, I refuse to trust the motivation of anyone who claims to be doing something "for my own good."

Let me worry about what's good for me or not.

[mol]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue

Let me worry about what's good for me or not.

Voila!

[Thats the last one, folks. Promise. Continue discussing, but know to keep this in hand otherwise I will have to close this one too. Have fun!!]

[Semele]

Originally posted by Wind

im so confused..........



Exactly! Now you are grasping something.

Chary,
The instructions for how to build a bomb would not be so terribly dangerous in the hands of undesirables as you may think. First they would have to possess a certain mind set and intelligence level, not to mention access to raw materials or an avenue to persue the gathering of such materials to pose a threat. So it is with much magik, especially this particular variety. But, I don't really think you fully grasp that idea yourself. Not an insult, just an observation.

[Kaylara]

Chaos magick is no more dangerous than any other kind of magick. Neither is information on it. It one feels uncomfortable about sharing the information, than don't share it. It you are doing it because you think the person is going to hurt themselves, then I'm sorry, but let them make their own mistakes. You can only advise them against it. After that, it's up to them. If they don't make mistakes they won't learn.

As far as not understanding the material in a particular area of magickal study...

If you are having a hard time understanding the terminology, practices, etc, then it is a sign at you are trying to go too fast. Try something a little less complicated and come back to this later. Unless you have a teacher, you probably will not get a simplifed answer on this, and even then, s/he'll probably tell you to figure it out on your own. No one is going to spoon feed you. The Gardnerians tell their prospective initiates well in advance that it is a hard road you travel when you choose this path. It would be nice if some people actually decided that the path less traveled were better than the Silver Ravenwolf Highway.

Kaylara

[*~*Chary*~*]

Semele,

Firstly, i do NOT know EVERYTHING about chaos magick ... who does
To tell the truth though i do know quite a bit about it !
The reason i do not wish to share the links i had were because i as a person did not feel comfortable being the one handing it out, that may be due to perosnal experience which i do not want to talk about openly in front of everyone but will gladly do so behind PM's. However, as you say it isnt that dangerous without a certain degree of intelligence and resources

Well as myst said ... there are over 2500 people on this board and i personally do not know all of them and i do not know if they have this intelligence, frame of mind, resources ... i am merely being careful

Perhaps the reason i appear to not "fully grasp" it is because of two things

a) my reluctance to share such information
b) the way i am trying to guard what i say in each post

However, i am sure that if you really wanted i would be able to speak to YOU about it PRIVATELY

***I have to be in court soon ... so i will post more when i return ... till then my friends ***

[WandererInGray]

Wrote Kaylara:
It would be nice if some people actually decided that the path less traveled were better than the Silver Ravenwolf Highway.

Here here, Kay!!

[WandererInGray]

Originally posted by *~*Chary*~*
a) my reluctance to share such information
b) the way i am trying to guard what i say in each post


Honestly, if you have some moral, ethical, legal reasons for not wanting to talk about this, then you shouldn't be saying anything at all. *shrugs* That's just my opinion on it. There's less mess, less fuss, and you don't have to deal with people wanting to know "why" you won't answer questions.

Just say "I don't want to talk about this for personal reasons" and be done with it.

[Xander67]

Originally posted by mol


Safeguarding?

Are you a *keeper* ?

no what I meant was useing caution in telling too much...

Personally I have not had as much expierience with CM as some of the others, and where I was going with that one is that mabey they saw something that they felt in thier own heart needed to be used with caution...

Im learning , just like every one else ...

and sometimes when I learn something new, it frightens me a little and then after I learn more, im not as fearful...

[Xander67]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue

Let me worry about what's good for me or not. [/B]

that is what I was trying to say but I guess I went about it the wrong way...

:)

[Kaylara]

Originally posted by *~*Chary*~*
Semele,

Firstly, i do NOT know EVERYTHING about chaos magick ... who does
To tell the truth though i do know quite a bit about it !
The reason i do not wish to share the links i had were because i as a person did not feel comfortable being the one handing it out, that may be due to perosnal experience which i do not want to talk about openly in front of everyone but will gladly do so behind PM's. However, as you say it isnt that dangerous without a certain degree of intelligence and resources

Well as myst said ... there are over 2500 people on this board and i personally do not know all of them and i do not know if they have this intelligence, frame of mind, resources ... i am merely being careful

Perhaps the reason i appear to not "fully grasp" it is because of two things

a) my reluctance to share such information
b) the way i am trying to guard what i say in each post

However, i am sure that if you really wanted i would be able to speak to YOU about it PRIVATELY

***I have to be in court soon ... so i will post more when i return ... till then my friends ***

And I totally agree... If you feel uncomfortable with giving out this information in a public forum, then don't give it to them in public... Talk on Pm's or AIM or via email...

Then again, I really think that people should start thinking for themselves again... Whatever happened to using your brain, intuition, and heart, and learning. What happened to "speak little, listen much"? You may find that there is a lot of "chaos" magic in systems that you already know pretty well. But if you don't look, you won't see.

Just as a side note... I didn't even bother reading this whole thread. There's not a real discussion on the topic anyways... Just whether or not we should give information to people and whether or not it's dangerous. Even my posts have nothing to do with this topic. I say that we wipe the slate clean, and try to have an actual discussion on the topic, and not just discuss whether or not we should discuss it...

Kaylara

[Kaylara]

Originally posted by WandererInGray


Honestly, if you have some moral, ethical, legal reasons for not wanting to talk about this, then you shouldn't be saying anything at all. *shrugs* That's just my opinion on it. There's less mess, less fuss, and you don't have to deal with people wanting to know "why" you won't answer questions.

Just say "I don't want to talk about this for personal reasons" and be done with it.

Exactly what I was trying to say.

Kaylara

[manstranger]

Yes.

That's why I was rolling my eyes in the chat every five seconds yesterday, thinking a couple people are full of it, and avoiding this thread and some other ones completely.

[manstranger]

Originally posted by Kaylara
Just as a side note... I didn't even bother reading this whole thread. There's not a real discussion on the topic anyways... Just whether or not we should give information to people and whether or not it's dangerous. Even my posts have nothing to do with this topic. I say that we wipe the slate clean, and try to have an actual discussion on the topic, and not just discuss whether or not we should discuss it...

Kaylara

Me either. It wasn't that good to begin with, and it didn't get any better that I saw.

I am surprised its gone on this far, with people saying no, i won't talk about it, people asking why, and then people saying no, i won't talk about it some more :rolleyes:.

I would like to discuss "it", however, I haven't seen someone yet willing to tell me what "it" was without some big moral half-discussion that is as tedious as watching paint dry. After asking for about the 5th time, here and on the chat, I gave up.

[Phoenix Blue]

Originally posted by manstranger
That's why I was rolling my eyes in the chat every five seconds yesterday, thinking a couple people are full of it, and avoiding this thread and some other ones completely.
It's not that anyone here is "full of it," ManStranger. **Smiles** We just have different opinions on what to do with a given set of information that some consider dangerous. There's nothing wrong with that; it's what makes us distinct and diverse.

I'll share this belief of mine for the benefit of everyone here: I believe the best answer that can be given is a question or series of questions. :) Where someone may not remember five days from now a piece of information they were given, they will remember it if they had to work from the question to find the answer on their own.

Life is about the questions you ask, and the road you take to get to the answer. The answer itself, oftentimes, is icing on the cake.

[Armitage]

Just as a side note... I didn't even bother reading this whole thread. There's not a real discussion on the topic anyways... Just whether or not we should give information to people and whether or not it's dangerous. Even my posts have nothing to do with this topic. I say that we wipe the slate clean, and try to have an actual discussion on the topic, and not just discuss whether or not we should discuss it...

*highfives Kaylara*
I was hoping to learn other's experiences with the stuff. Personally, I've looked into it, used some of the teaching. My head's still on straight.

[manstranger]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue

It's not that anyone here is "full of it," ManStranger. **Smiles** We just have different opinions on what to do with a given set of information that some consider dangerous. There's nothing wrong with that; it's what makes us distinct and diverse.

I'll share this belief of mine for the benefit of everyone here: I believe the best answer that can be given is a question or series of questions. :) Where someone may not remember five days from now a piece of information they were given, they will remember it if they had to work from the question to find the answer on their own.

Life is about the questions you ask, and the road you take to get to the answer. The answer itself, oftentimes, is icing on the cake.

They where talking about you. I remember this quote distinctly: Can I hit PB Now.

I was just thinking .. for wanting real answers? Hmm. And this was a mod and an admin talking.

[Phoenix Blue]

**Laughs**

Well, to whomever said that: I'm sorry. I don't mean for anything in this discussion to be taken personally, but it sounds like that's exactly what happened. But if you want to hit me, keep in mind, only my friends get free shots. :bigredgri

[Xander67]

Originally posted by Kaylara


And I totally agree... If you feel uncomfortable with giving out this information in a public forum, then don't give it to them in public... Talk on Pm's or AIM or via email...

Then again, I really think that people should start thinking for themselves again... Whatever happened to using your brain, intuition, and heart, and learning. What happened to "speak little, listen much"? You may find that there is a lot of "chaos" magic in systems that you already know pretty well. But if you don't look, you won't see.

Just as a side note... I didn't even bother reading this whole thread. There's not a real discussion on the topic anyways... Just whether or not we should give information to people and whether or not it's dangerous. Even my posts have nothing to do with this topic. I say that we wipe the slate clean, and try to have an actual discussion on the topic, and not just discuss whether or not we should discuss it...

Kaylara

I agree Kay, and I guess this subject is so controversial, in that it is different for each person, mabey it got personal because it is a very personal expierence on that level :)

[WandererInGray]

Originally posted by manstranger
They where talking about you. I remember this quote distinctly: Can I hit PB Now.


*sweet smile* Off the topic, I'll answer that question for whomever asked it. Yes, you may....

Just be sure I'm not anywhere in the vicinity, or you won't get out alive. Even then, it would be touch and go for you. Because I've got a long memory and I'm not a very nice person.


Back to the topic....I agree with Kaylara and Armitage a discussion on Chaos magic itself would be interesting. Unfortunately it seems that those who *know* aren't talking, so maybe we should look for some stuff ourselves and start a new thread?

[Xander67]

Xan no hit PB,

PB cool dude!

[WandererInGray]

Originally posted by Xander67
mabey it got personal because it is a very personal expierence on that level :)

I don't know a kind of magick that *isn't* personal experience. *shakes head*

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth Xander67:
I agree Kay, and I guess this subject is so controversial, in that it is different for each person, mabey it got personal because it is a very personal expierence on that level :)
**Nods** I think you're right on-the-money with that one, Xan. **Smiles** And I think that's why there's so much controversy about it here. Some people have had experiences which have led them to believe that chaos magick is a Very Bad Thing™. I respect that, but my own experience hasn't borne that out. Hence, the disagreement. :)

[WandererInGray]

So we've already locked down that Chaos magick is difficult to define by it's very nature.

And there are hints that what one finds on the Internet is not "real" Chaos magick.

Jas, I'd love to hear more about yours and anyone else's experience.

Obviously, only if you feel comfortable ethically, and spiritually talking about such things. If you don't, then don't answer.

[Xander67]

WE AGREEEE!!!!! :boing: :D

took us long enough LOL 2 days! :)

[manstranger]

From what some chaos magicians have let slip, I've gathered that some part of it has to do with some of the "darker" dieties. However, this may be completely off base, as i've also heard that one doesn't work with dieties when using it. But the person I gathered this opinion from named Hekate, a dark goddess or magick, so maybe it's part of her worship?

[WandererInGray]

*shrugs* Possibly.

I don't care much about "dark" vs "light" deities. Which shouldn't be surprising since my matron is probably considered one of the "darkest" (Kali-Ma)

Part of my confusion on the whole thing probably stems from me not seeing a difference. There is chaos in *everything*....so to try and define a specific part of magick as that is puzzling to me.

[MistOfTheSea86]

Originally posted by WandererInGray
*shrugs* Possibly.

I don't care much about "dark" vs "light" deities. Which shouldn't be surprising since my matron is probably considered one of the "darkest" (Kali-Ma)

Part of my confusion on the whole thing probably stems from me not seeing a difference. There is chaos in *everything*....so to try and define a specific part of magick as that is puzzling to me.

I am not trying to offend you or anything, but I only know who Kali Ma is from Indiana Jones -.-

[Phoenix Blue]

:T S'okay. . . that was about all I knew of Her, too, until she thumped Wanderer on the noggin.

You can find a tidbit of information at the Encyclopedia Mythica (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/k/kali.html) entry for Kali. **Smiles** A Google Search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Kali-Ma%22) for Kali-Ma should give you a bit more information. And of course, Wanderer is fairly well-versed in Hindu mythology, too. :cool:

Finally, there's a much more in-depth source here (http://home.att.net/~gentletouch/kali.html).

[MistOfTheSea86]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue
:T S'okay. . . that was about all I knew of Her, too, until she thumped Wanderer on the noggin.

You can find a tidbit of information at the Encyclopedia Mythica (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/k/kali.html) entry for Kali. **Smiles** A Google Search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Kali-Ma%22) for Kali-Ma should give you a bit more information. And of course, Wanderer is fairly well-aversed of Hindu mythology, too. :cool:

Finally, there's a much more in-depth source here (http://home.att.net/~gentletouch/kali.html).


Thanks Blue!:) hehe

[manstranger]

Yeah, I don't get the labeling of chaos magick either. The people i've talked to (or tryed to ;O) about it say that it's to dangerous, it will do things, whatever whatever ... and i'm just like .. you're defining chaos, and saying it is and willd do ceretain things, and hence I can't know about it ... isn't that going against the deffinition of chaos?

At this point, like i said in the other thread, I began to think they where full of it. ;). Sorry if that's disrespect.

[MistOfTheSea86]

I will never do it again, I hate looking back on the day that I did. Chaos magick is energy as anything else. And I personally believe that Chaos isn't "bad' There can be a chaotic Healing spell or a chaotic hex spell. It's just massive amounts of energy almost too large for humans to comprehend. As for trying to guard yourself, it is possible. And it isn't some elaborate ritual, it's power over your own mind. Your own thoughts, and at times your own emotions.


This is not something that should be just delved into, like any other form of energy. Be smart, and research what you can before you think you know everything.

Imo

[Myst]

Originally posted by manstranger


They where talking about you. I remember this quote distinctly: Can I hit PB Now.

I was just thinking .. for wanting real answers? Hmm. And this was a mod and an admin talking.

Actually it was a mod, a member, and an admin who wasn't responding to that (ie. ME). Get your stories straight before you go telling them.

[Phoenix Blue]

:nonono: Really, it's okay, it's not like I was there or that I take it personally. . .

[Myst]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue
but I'd still prefer they listen to me than to Silver Ravenwolf. :cool: It's a matter of perspective, I guess.

I was just saying to someone Saturday night, it's amazing how often and where SRW will come up in conversation and be insulted.... :lol: :)

[Myst]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue
:nonono: Really, it's okay, it's not like I was there or that I take it personally. . .

I'm aware of that. I just find it annoying to be already rewritten in the rumor mill.

[Phoenix Blue]

Spake Myst:
I'm aware of that. I just find it annoying to be already rewritten in the rumor mill.
Nothin' like a good "What'chu talkin' 'bout?" to quash a rumor in its tracks. :bigredgri

I don't think I insulted SRW. . . **smiles** I don't like her, true, but that's a topic that's surely been beaten to death already.

[Haedis]

What led you to think that "they" were full of it? Not to start another argument (i fully realize the horse I'm beating is long deceased) but is this just based on the fact that "they" wont tell you certain things?

I totally understand your frustration though.

So lemme get this straight: you (general "you") cant find much good info about it online or in books? You need an actual teacher? and if you dont have many perspectives to compare with (because no one wants to talk about it) then how to you know how reputable the teacher would be, or if they're just talking out their arse?

[Xander67]

now there is something I think we can all agree on :T

[Haedis]

amen brother amen

[Semele]

[i] As for trying to guard yourself, it is possible. And it isn't some elaborate ritual, it's power over your own mind. Your own thoughts, and at times your own emotions.

Imo [/B]


Yay Mist!

Of all the posts in this ridiculously long thread, yours makes the most sense. You have an uncanny grasp of things most of us can only ponder about. You never cease to amaze me! Thank you!

[Kaylara]

Haedis,
The reason that a new thread was started was so that we can actually discuss what little we know of chaos magick. Please keep your posts here on topic.

Thank you,
Kaylara
*end moderator mode*

[manstranger]

"What led you to think that "they" were full of it? Not to start another argument (i fully realize the horse I'm beating is long deceased) but is this just based on the fact that "they" wont tell you certain things? "

No, that they can't even answer general questions about it. Like .. curious one. Things like "what is chaos magick" "you would get it if you were meant to" ... its like .. get the vagueness? Vague, at least with people i know generally means they know jack. There was jack to support what they were saying. If you can't even do that, why should I treat them as if they know anything about it at all?

I totally understand your frustration though.

"So lemme get this straight: you (general "you") cant find much good info about it online or in books? You need an actual teacher?"

Ummm .. I haven't looked. I just saw the thread, saw some people that where willing to say that they knew lots about it, yet didn't want to share/couldn't share. Again, it was simple questions, and they refused to answer. It was the equivelant of asking someone their name and having them refuse to answer, at least in my opinion.

"and if you dont have many perspectives to compare with (because no one wants to talk about it) then how to you know how reputable the teacher would be, or if they're just talking out their arse?"

That's exactly my point. I think that they where talking out of their arse. I think that they where full of s**t. Do you get what I'm saying better now?

[Myst]

Just so you know,

a) talking about how people are talking out of their arse is also off topic. Do you want the thread closed that bad?

b) show respect or don't post; saying people are talking out of their ass doesn't cover that.

So I reiterate, do you want the thread closed?

I'd suggest we get back on topic now before I do close it. Thanks :)

[Kaylara]

Manstranger,
We started this new thread to discuss Chaos magick, not who is or is not "full of it". Please keep your posts On Topic.

This thread will be closed if it has to be moderated one more time.

Thank you,
Kaylara

*End Moderator Mode*

[Haedis]

Sorry about that. It shall not happen again.

[mol]

Originally posted by manstranger
From what some chaos magicians have let slip, I've gathered that some part of it has to do with some of the "darker" dieties. However, this may be completely off base, as i've also heard that one doesn't work with dieties when using it. But the person I gathered this opinion from named Hekate, a dark goddess or magick, so maybe it's part of her worship?

Something I can actually contribute.

Chaos Magick really is not tied to any specific Deity or faith. Of course, it CAN be a part of a ritual for a Deity....it CAN be used in a Deity's name I suppose, etc. But, the ties are energybound and neutral to faith.

[Xander67]

From what I have been reading, it involves useing the Mind, and being in Alpha, or an altered state of consciousness..

[Myst]

What mol said about not necessarily using deities could be said to be true of any magic, really. (Important discussion on that in T&P or something I think?)

You'd be surprised at how much general info is out there if you search google - I'm up to my ears in info about Gnosis, Carroll and the IOT, and so on - I guess this one is where people were getting their info on what it is? - http://users.rcn.com/lilith777/max/book/Whatis.html

Keep in mind tho, saying it is part of Gnosis or anything is like saying meditation is Wiccan - it may be part of it, but they aren't necessarily used together.

[Myst]

Originally posted by Xander67
From what I have been reading, it involves useing the Mind, and being in Alpha, or an altered state of consciousness..

Also true of any magic.

[Kaylara]

Originally posted by Myst


I was just saying to someone Saturday night, it's amazing how often and where SRW will come up in conversation and be insulted.... :lol: :)

I find it funny how SRW can be subtly insulted, and everyone knows what I'm talking about without me needing to explain it.

Kaylara

[Haedis]

I just read something about chaos magick that explains it as a shell or structure that you fill with your own beliefs and preferences about what works best for you. Maybe thats why its so hard to pin a definition to it, its vastly different for every practitioner.

[Xander67]

and to add a bit further,,

I was reading a book from, Delores Ashcroft Nowicki and H Brennen.. called "magical use of thoughtforms" and it presented several interesting exercises for developing the left and right brain, it also says that when we do activities that use both the left and right brain, (such as music, art, and web design) we are useing logic and creativity which helps us connect to a higher level of consciousness.... Really interesting reading :)

[Phoenix Blue]

**Ponders**

I view majick as another form of energy, subject to the same laws as "physical" energy. It can be used to heighten the probability of a given event, or conversely to lower that same probability. It can be freely given. It can be used to construct a magickal "Faraday box"--a shield against other types of magickal energy. It can be converted into metaphysical matter (for more solid shields).

I know from my work that everyone's magick carries a "signature." Just like I have fingerprints, my magick carries an imprint of its own which identifies it as mine. This signature can be adjusted to tailor a particular majickal work (like adding a touch of "green" for, say, a prosperity spell); it can be masked; or it can be removed altogether if the majical worker acts as a "conduit" without actually altering the flow of the energy moving through her.

I don't know if that's "chaos" magick or not. That's my (condensed) intuitive understanding of how magick works, though. :)

[mol]

Originally posted by Haedis
Maybe thats why its so hard to pin a definition to it, its vastly different for every practitioner.

Also true of most Magick.

[Myst]

My favourite comment;

"Sure, it isn't True that Christ died on a cross to save our souls or that Odin slew Ymir and formed the world from his body. But on the other hand, it isn't any more True that at the foundation of reality is only swirling, indifferent chaos. You can believe it if you like, and many chaos magicians do I understand, but that doesn't make it True."

http://home.earthlink.net/~fintach/ChaosDogma.html

Oh if only everyone realized this!!! Write it down, highlight it, underline it! You can't prove anyone else's beliefs are less true then yours, so don't worry about it! Believe what makes sense to you but don't waste time arguing about Christ or any of the rest!

[mol]

Originally posted by Myst
My favourite comment;

"Sure, it isn't True that Christ died on a cross to save our souls or that Odin slew Ymir and formed the world from his body. But on the other hand, it isn't any more True that at the foundation of reality is only swirling, indifferent chaos. You can believe it if you like, and many chaos magicians do I understand, but that doesn't make it True."

http://home.earthlink.net/~fintach/ChaosDogma.html

Oh if only everyone realized this!!! Write it down, highlight it, underline it! You can't prove anyone else's beliefs are less true then yours, so don't worry about it! Believe what makes sense to you but don't waste time arguing about Christ or any of the rest!

I think I have been spouting this since the inception of MW. I know I was saying it before MW. In fact, its what semele and I founded this place on. That is why 'everyone' is correct.

[Xander67]

I think that spirituality and personal belifs also fit in the "indivdual and personal experience" category..

yes we have different paths, cultures, etc... but I think when you talk about beliefs ... at the core itis very personal... this is why I Love the Golden Rule here... Accept and Respect each otrhers paths. Ones beliefs are a part of who they are, and to disrespect ones path, is also disrespecting the individual...

IMHO :)

[MistOfTheSea86]

Originally posted by Semele



Yay Mist!

Of all the posts in this ridiculously long thread, yours makes the most sense. You have an uncanny grasp of things most of us can only ponder about. You never cease to amaze me! Thank you!

I try hehe:)

[Myst]

Just say "I don't want to talk about this for personal reasons" and be done with it.

Isn't that essentially what she said in the first place? "I don't feel comfortable posting it". And she got bombarded with questions on why.

People asked questions, some of us answered.

One can't win half the time - you answer questions and you get bitched at, you don't answer questions and you get bitched at. Someone give me a sheet next time with the questions to ignore and the questions to answer.

And is it just me who thinks its a little egotistical to insist that people answer only the one question someone personally wants answered? I mean I realize the thread is pretty long but then if you're seriously seeking the answers to what we're talking about you won't mind reading it will you?

Maybe it's just me - I'd want to be reading everything available including why I might want to be careful.

[Myst]

And incidentally, if you really wanted to know some basic concepts and information about chaos magic, you could've just done the research yourself and not bothered arguing with people who didn't want to hand it to you.

I noticed PB and a couple others thought of that :)

[Phoenix Blue]

Originally posted by Myst
Isn't that essentially what she said in the first place? "I don't feel comfortable posting it". And she got bombarded with questions on why.
On a basic level, I agree; I think that's what she said. She can probably clear that up when she gets back. . .

However, there's a significant difference between, "I'm not comfortable talking about this," and "This is too dangerous to talk about." **Smiles** The former establishes a personal boundary which most folks won't cross. Personally, I'd leave that former statement alone out of respect for someone else's privacy. But if you tell me something's dangerous, typically, I'm going to ask why.


One can't win half the time - you answer questions and you get bitched at, you don't answer questions and you get bitched at. Someone give me a sheet next time with the questions to ignore and the questions to answer.
:lol:


And is it just me who thinks its a little egotistical to insist that people answer only the one question someone personally wants answered? I mean I realize the thread is pretty long but then if you're seriously seeking the answers to what we're talking about you won't mind reading it will you?
What do you mean?

I'd rather have a complete answer than a concise answer anyday. I'll sort through what's given; the more there is, the happier (and more occupied) I'll be with it. :)


Maybe it's just me - I'd want to be reading everything available including why I might want to be careful.
I agree with you fully on that count.

[Phoenix Blue]

Spake Myst:
And incidentally, if you really wanted to know some basic concepts and information about chaos magic, and get yourself going, you could've just done the research yourself and not bothered arguing with people who didn't want to hand it to you.
**Nods** The answer is worth more when you find it yourself than when someone gives it to you. . .

[Myst]

The bit I quoted that Chary said I doublechecked on her first post, but I see what you mean about the danger bit. I'm not trying to say asking why it is dangerous is wrong, I would've too.


Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue
What do you mean?

I'd rather have a complete answer than a concise answer anyday. I'll sort through what's given; the more there is, the happier (and more occupied) I'll be with it.

That was in reference to those who think that we shouldn't have 'wasted' 15 pages on discussing why it's dangerous and answering why one might not be 'comfortable'. Again, maybe just me, but I'd want to know all of it. :)

Unfortunately as is often in theology the 15 pages could've been made up in a couple, once we got our thoughts together, but c'est la vie :)

[Phoenix Blue]

Gotcha. . . **nods** and again, I agree. **Wonders if there isn't something to this talk of apocalypse after all. . . :p**

Brainstorming and creative writing are a lot like this. . . the flow is unorganized, chaotic stream-of-consciousness. When you get ready to write something more polished, you trim away what doesn't fit. But it's far easier to take away than it is to add something to a creative project. . . which is why more material--even "irrelevant" material--is almost always better in a discussion forum.

[Myst]

Hm what's next, the plague? :D

[Xander67]

Maybe that is what happened here, it took us 2 days to get to the point where we were all in agreement LOL

but its good to share Ideas and oppinions, and agree to disagree in a friendly environment :)

[Xander67]

Originally posted by Myst
Hm what's next, the plague? :D :eek: :eek:

:o And the Fluff Bunnies shall descend upon the land and unleash thier Fuzzy Wrath :T

Sorry, I had to, I couldnt resist

[*~*Chary*~*]

On a basic level, I agree; I think that's what she said. She can probably clear that up when she gets back. . .

However, there's a significant difference between, "I'm not comfortable talking about this," and "This is too dangerous to talk about." **Smiles** The former establishes a personal boundary which most folks won't cross. Personally, I'd leave that former statement alone out of respect for someone else's privacy. But if you tell me something's dangerous, typically, I'm going to ask why.


Yes i am sorry that is my fault. originally i posted


please note i have deleted this link as Chaos Magick IS extemyl dangerous to both the user and the used

However, i changed this after i re-read it ...

And can i please take this oppurtunity to say: if anyone thinks my post sound "holier than thou" then i apologise for that and will rephrase them gladly. they are not meant to sound like that AT ALL !


Also as an added note... after this discussion and seeing the posts some people have ... i will gladly share SOME of the information with you .. please contact me if you wish to do so on

AIM: Euphoria1000000
YIM: Euphoria100000
MSN: euphoria1000000@hotmail.com

[Xander67]

I think they are fine by me Chary..

I think they speak from understanding and experience...
and a genuine concern for people...

[Phoenix Blue]

Whether we agree or not, Chary, I think you have a good heart. :)

[God Of Darkness]

thank you from my aunt pb

[Balthazar]

OK, back on topic now, after sitting here and reading all of this, I have a few questions for all of you:

What is Chaos Magick to you? How do you concieve it? What type of energy do you think it consists of? What do you think its effects are on both the caster and the target? What do you think its effects are on the environment?

Oh, and I am not asking these questions because I want answers, I am asking these questions because all of you are looking for them.

[Xander67]

well, I think you will find alot of our thoughts in the other thread here, the Chaos Magic?? thread... and yes, I can agree with you Balthazar, I think we all are searching for answers :)

[Myst]

The SRW discussion has been split out to the books forum - http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18150

Back *on* topic now

[Myst]

MM Balthazar, you must be a friend of Yvonne's/Naillos', eh?


Jaswant said...

There is something very redeemable in Chaos Magick, and it is the creation and load of symbols in state of Gnosis. Work about the own will, and create a symbol starting from her, that later implant in the subconscious , is really an useful tool.

Interesting. How is that chaos magic, or what about it makes it chaos magic, rather then just a regular spell (ie. using symbolism/correspondences or even symbols/sigils). Or is the core of it that easy?

[Jaswant]

I spoke of arriving to a state of Gnosis to implant the symbol that represents my will, directly in the sub-conscious. I didn't say that the Gnosis belonged to the Chaos Magick. To achieve a state of Gnosis, makes much easier the communication with those parts of the mind that govern our life, conditions our acts and program our answers... and with those that we don't have communication from a conscious state. I thoroughly studied the theories of the Chaos Magick, and I found some truths... beyond any deity that is invoked or not, the certain thing is that the sub-conscious contains all the mental programmings that determine our answers in life. If the contribution of the Chaos Magick, is the one of proposing a technique that facilitates the implant of new programs directed by our conscience and Will... I don't see any wrong in it. The information is open for all. It changes only the way to understand it and to use it. And yes... it will arrive some day in that we can contemplate the way of the questions, from the summit of the answers.
While that happens, it is valid to explore, to question and to open up consciously to all that allows us to develop our discernment and our right to choose the road that we want to walk.
Ciao
:wave: