What has happened?

[Valnorran]

In my never ending obssession to understand human nature and what makes us tick, I've stumbled across something that I would like to get some opinions on.

The Old West is my favorite period in American history. Having read a great deal about outlaws and gunmen who were reputed to be the worst of the worst, I couldn't help noticing something. Most of them weren't as bad as today's criminals. In this particular time period it was almost unheard of for a woman to be raped. The simple reason was that her rapist would not live out the week. The entire territory would be after his scalp, literally. One of the biggest crimes in this period was the sack of Lawerence, Kansas by William Quantrill and his band of raiders. They burned much of the town to the ground, gunned down men in front of screaming wives, and I believe their youngest victim was a fourteen year old boy who had the misfortune to be wearing a Union army uniform, but they didn't touch the women or small children. Growing up on the frontier was no day at the beach, and firearms were far more accessible then than they are now, yet have any of you heard of a youngster (or a grown man, for that matter) of the period deliberately firing on a schoolground? One of the biggest gunfights in this period was the famous gunfight at the O. K. coral. In that shoot-out, three men were killed and three more wounded, and it was between law officers and cattle thieves. Compare that with some of the shootings we have now.

Look at the famous gangsters of the 1920s and 1930s. By far most of the victims of their violence were other gangsters or cops. There were the odd exception, like George "Machine Gun" Kelly, but for the most part they only shot it out with cops and rivals. The did not waste entire skyscrapers full of people. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying any of these guys were sweethearts or poor, misunderstood boys. I'm also aware that large scale attrocities occured in the past, but the majority of them were in the context or warfare, not criminal enterprise (not that that justifies it, of course, but it is a difference).

I grew up in a single parent household. I got teased and harrassed in middle and high school (1980s). I had a terrible temper (still do, but it stays on its leash) and free access to firearms, yet in my blackest rage it never crossed my mind to gun down my tormentors. Beat the daylights out of them? Sure. Take an ugly stick to them? Hell yes. Hold them up for ridicule? Absolutely... but not kill them.

What has happened? Why are today's criminals so much more vicious than those in the past? What factors exist now that didn't a few years ago? I've got a few thoughts on it, but I would really like your input.

What in the names of the seven mad gods who rule the sea has happened to us?

[cherrywind]

Well, I'd just like to say, just because it wasn't highly publicized doesn't mean it didn't exist. I'm SURE there was rape and sexual molestation back in the old west or whenever, but women were considered nothing, they weren't even people. Hell, a man could rape his wife and nothing would be wrong with that at all, even in this day and age people are just starting to realize that just because she is his wife doesn't mean he has the right to have sex with her if she doesn't want to. Women used to be forced to marry their rapists because they were now damaged goods, they couldn't be married off to anybody else now. If a women was raped it used to be considered a property crime, and it was the husband or the father that was considered the victim, not the woman.

I'm not saying that it existed in the numbers it does today, I can't really say it does or doesn't because who knows the numbers? Most women don't report rape these days, why would they bother to 50, 100, 200 years ago? I highly doubt they would.

In your statement you make it sound like rape/sexual assault hardly existed at all, and I have a REAL problem with that. As for everything else in your argument, well, I don't know enough of the facts to refute or agree properly.

edited because I forgot to say something

[Myst]

You hear about rape etc. more often now because of two factors too;

a) higher population, it follows that there are more criminals and more victims

b) news coverage - now we can get the media on tv, the radio, the internet, etc. whereas back then things were word of mouth and not spread as far due to lack of fast transportation

Cherry has also got some points there that are very pertinent.

[Old Witch]

I agree totally........better communication, and more people......... And I agree with Cherrywind too!!!......I agreed with Myst on something........

[Myst]

Originally posted by Old Witch
I agreed with Myst on something........

:rolleyes: :lol:

[Valnorran]

In the American Old West (1860s to 1890s) women, even prostitutes, were treated with respect. The reason was very simple. On the western frontier women were a very rare commodity. If a man wanted the luxury of female companionship, he damn well better treat them decently. Does this mean women were never mistreated? Of course not. But attitudes in the west were a bit more liberal than elsewhere. It was not unusual for western territories to give women the right to vote. For example, let us look at Dodge City, Kansas in the 1870s. A man tried to kill the mayor, Jim Kelly. He failed but did succeed in accidentally killing Dora Hand, a very popular town prostitute who taught Sunday school in the local church. The man was wounded in the process of his apprehension. When he found out he had killed Dora Hand rather than Jim Kelly, he expressed remorse in a rough manner by cursing the man who shot him for not killing him. I also refer back to the sack of Lawrence, Kansas. Throughout all of the looting, killing, burning, and plundering, the women were completely untouched. Some of the women used whatever tricks they could devise to save their husbands from being shot. Quantrill's men were quite well aware of this, but still did nothing to the women. Nowadays, for a woman in such a situation being sexually assaulted is a virtual certainty, yet it did not happen in this instance. My question is why? What is different about today's predators from those of a few years ago? Mass communications is part of the answer but not all of it. We know about the sack of Lawrence in painful detail. We know of all sorts of depredations committed by the criminals of yesteryear. We know details of their lives. There is no mention of them killing small children. There is no instance of shootings at schools or churches. Now they happen with sickening frequency. Why? What has changed? Mass communications and a higher population density are not sufficient to explain this.

And just for the record, I never said sexual assault never occured. I'm saying that, at that particular place and time in American history, it was very unusual for a woman to be assaulted by a stranger. Not impossible, not unheard of, but unusual. A man getting shot was noted but hardly made any ripples. A woman getting shot, however, created a storm of outrage.

At any rate, sexual assault is just one violent crime out of many. Simply put, my point is this: In our time we have people who will machine gun children, set fire to buildings full of people, and mail bombs to those they find unpleasant. The criminals of the past, no matter how dispicable, no matter how low and dirty and mean, did not engage in behavior this extreme. For the most part they fought it out amongst themselves and law officers. They rarely deliberately targeted civilians. Why has this changed?

[Myst]

Originally posted by Valnorran
There is no instance of shootings at schools or churches. Now they happen with sickening frequency. Why? What has changed? Mass communications and a higher population density are not sufficient to explain this.

Again;
a) more people
b) more guns and weapons
c) more media for news

Also, children were taught to respect weapons back then and use them properly.

I honestly don't see anymore to it then times have changed in terms of population and the media.

If you're looking for 'there's more negativity in the world' or 'violence has become ok in entertainment', well, perhaps that's a contributing factor but I'd hate to over emphasize those.

[Phoenix Blue]

Population density is a big factor, too.

Two rats in a cage will probably get along. Twenty rats in the same-size cage will kill one-another.

[Flaire-FireStar]

I agree with Myst.... but also technology &, like Phoenix said..Population density.

I live in a small town, but compared to what 'towns' were back then....I'd live in one real BIG city!

[Old Witch]

I'm gonna include one thing tho.........Mothers that were at home........This is no criticism for hardworking Moms, I realise you have to work!!! And maybe drugs, but I don't know anything about it in the old west, except opium dens in San Francisco..........Been thinking to much today..........

[Yvonne Belisle]

May I also point out that sexual activity was a stigma then. If you were raped you didn't say anything at all because as far as society was concerned you asked for it. This is an attitude that is only just changing. Thonly way for an unmarried woman to support herself once people knew she had sex was in prostitution or as a mistress unless she moved far away.

[cherrywind]

I'm saying that, at that particular place and time in American history, it was very unusual for a woman to be assaulted by a stranger.

What about assault from someone you know? A husband? A boyfriend? Does that not make it assault just because it's by somebody you know? That happens more often than assault by a stranger now, I don't think it would have been much different then. As for the rest of your argument, I think Myst, Phoenix, and Yvonne made very good points and I'd agree with them.

Edited to say...
I meant to point out I knew you were talking specifically about strangers, I just wanted to call attention to the fact that being assaulted by a stranger has never been the the majority of the assaults that take place.

[StarryDancer]

Interesting topic! I'd think there are a whole bunch of reasons, largely sociological, that together create a cascade effect.

1) More people now. People, like dogs and rats, tend to behave much more savagely when in packs. Observe that there were such phenomena as lynchings and mass attacks on Native Americans. The boys found outlets for their testosterone, all right.

2) Different value for life. Birth mortality rates were high, and many families lost many children -- sometimes whole families -- to disease in those days. Children were valued, not as the overempowered rulers of the home as they are today, but as precious commodities that were needed to help with the farm.

3) Discipline was different. They'd hang you without a thought if you so much as stole a horse. Hence, most people learned that crime didn't pay, and held themselves closer to a universal code of ethics.

4) Families were more present to each other, and multigenerational homes were normal. Child care was done by a parent or grandparent. I see big differences in children today raised by family from their counterparts raised by daycare. Kids raised at home tend to be more respectful of their elders, show more common courtesy, and seem to have higher self-esteem. (I'm sure this varies in accordance with the type of care they are receiving, no matter where they are receiving it.) The point? Kids raised in loving, caring environments are less likely to become sociopathic!

5) I've no clue about the treatment of women in the old west. They certainly had to work hard, and I suspect that they were respected in accordance withe the amount of work they did. Were there rapes and assaults on women? Of course. But as has been said already, the media wasn't there to splash it all around.

6) And speaking of media...the extensive amount of fiction and fantasy that is absorbed by kids today is, I think, a leading reason why we have kids killing people. They see deadly attacks on TV, but there is no sense of the "person" having died, when the actor is seen again and again in another context. I think kids don't always associate the act of killing with someone actually being permanently dead!

[cherrywind]

Oh yes, I'd also like to point out, and this is related to population density, that when you have a smaller town there is generally more homogeneity between the members, therefore a greater sense of shared morals/values. This is demonstarted primarily within smaller societies around the world today, so I suppose it could be applied to smaller towns 100 years ago. That's just a guess on my part though. This of course doesn't account for bigger cities and towns around the time though.

[Eeluna]

As StarrryDancer mentioned, atrocious acts were committed against the Native Americans. I don't know much about that time period, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Native American women were more likely to be raped (by white men) than the white women.

Everybody's brought up interesting points, and I agree with a lot of them. I think society has changed--in some ways for the better and in others for the worse. I think a lot of the trouble nowadays comes from people having a lack of respect for life and a feeling of hopelessness. Life has no meaning to them. Why has this happened? Poverty, drug abuse, the loss of close family ties, a separation from Nature as being sacred, and probably a lot of other factors.

[cherrywind]

Well put Eeluna :).