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View Full Version : Can you be a born-again Christian and still practice some forms of magick?



LacunaCobra
January 25th, 2008, 12:34 AM
This one's a huge struggle for me. I was brought up in a Christian home and became born again at the age of 10, baptized at 11. I work with stones and crystals mainly, and I know God put them here for a reason, so that we can learn from them and use their healing abilities, but every once in a while I have this voice in the back of my head that says, "You shouldn't be so concerned with stones and crystals. You should rely on God solely for your strength." It drives me crazy yet I still continue to work with my crystals. Does anyone have any encouraging thoughts? :)

Caitlin.ann
January 25th, 2008, 12:44 AM
I think it really depends on what kind of Christian you are (denomination wise) and how far along you are in your pagan path. I know more radical Christians wouldn't (that I've come across) have much of a problem with mixing Christianity with witchcraft; whereas, your more fundamentalist Chirstians will.

Really, I don't see why using the Earth's natural properties (gems, herbs) to help us in our lives can be against the Bible or divinity. Divinity created gems and herbs (etc.) and I haven't read anything in the Bible that denounces using them in your everyday life. Many cultures before us, Christian and otherwise had to use natural methods for healing and general living on a daily basis.

As for feeling guilty, I was raised Christian and it was quite difficult to get that voice in the back of my head to quiet down. I know its hard for a lot of people who leave Christianity for a pagan path, or even if they stay in their Christian path and simply adopt more "witchy" practices.

Maybe a little bit of prayer would help? It always seem to help me when I pray to the deities I worship. I'm not a Christian Witch, so I may not be able to provide the best information, but I hope I helped at least in part. :)

LacunaCobra
January 25th, 2008, 12:50 AM
I think it really depends on what kind of Christian you are (denomination wise) and how far along you are in your pagan path. I know more radical Christians wouldn't (that I've come across) have much of a problem with mixing Christianity with witchcraft; whereas, your more fundamentalist Chirstians will.

Really, I don't see why using the Earth's natural properties (gems, herbs) to help us in our lives can be against the Bible or divinity. Divinity created gems and herbs (etc.) and I haven't read anything in the Bible that denounces using them in your everyday life. Many cultures before us, Christian and otherwise had to use natural methods for healing and general living on a daily basis.

As for feeling guilty, I was raised Christian and it was quite difficult to get that voice in the back of my head to quiet down. I know its hard for a lot of people who leave Christianity for a pagan path, or even if they stay in their Christian path and simply adopt more "witchy" practices.

Maybe a little bit of prayer would help? It always seem to help me when I pray to the deities I worship. I'm not a Christian Witch, so I may not be able to provide the best information, but I hope I helped at least in part. :)

You did! Thank you!

Infinite Grey
January 25th, 2008, 12:59 AM
This one's a huge struggle for me. I was brought up in a Christian home and became born again at the age of 10, baptized at 11. I work with stones and crystals mainly, and I know God put them here for a reason, so that we can learn from them and use their healing abilities, but every once in a while I have this voice in the back of my head that says, "You shouldn't be so concerned with stones and crystals. You should rely on God solely for your strength." It drives me crazy yet I still continue to work with my crystals. Does anyone have any encouraging thoughts? :)


From my point of view you can do as you wish with matter of faith, as I view most of it to be imaginary (I'm an atheist skeptic).

I'm working under the assumption that you were/part of an evangelical movement as they usually use the term "born again" most commonly; I was raised a Pentecostal.

But under the doctrines of Evangelical Christianity, no. The evangelical movements are part of the puritan's legacy (the groups responsible for the Witch Trails) and take a very strict adherence to the bible, usually a literal interpretation (but not always). Practicing magic is a no no almost as bad as Suicide and Blaspheming the Holy spirit, and should be avoided at all costs (you shouldn't even read Harry Potter).

Now the Catholics and early Protestants used to practice magic, specifically Angelology and Demonology. They also used Tarot, Numerology, Astrology and Alchemy. But it was a fine line to walk, and more than a few practitioners were eventually accused of witchcraft (in old Christian terminology a witch was synonymous with the worst kind of heretic.)


So in conclusion, there isn't anything really stopping you practicing magic; but do not expect your fellow Christians to be very understanding... hell, they wouldn't even understand you being a member of this site.

Evinmeer
January 25th, 2008, 01:16 AM
I agree w/ Sacredsin: God made them for a purpose. Use them accordingly.

lightdragon
January 25th, 2008, 02:05 AM
As for feeling guilty, I was raised Christian and it was quite difficult to get that voice in the back of my head to quiet down. I know its hard for a lot of people who leave Christianity for a pagan path, or even if they stay in their Christian path and simply adopt more "witchy" practices.

to make a long story short I left Christianity for paganism a few years ago. in fact i was just short of evangelical. for me there was no voice in the back of my head telling me it was wrong. But it didn`t happen overnight for me. it took me about three years or so to stop saying the Lord's Prayers. So now I`m a pagan.

Dark_Tezcatlipoca
January 25th, 2008, 02:50 AM
No.

Laoghaire
January 25th, 2008, 08:43 AM
I wish I could share some of my books with you... I study at uni and I'm busy with old literature. A couple of months ago we talked, in Dutch Literature, about the old manuscript, Sidrac. It's about a 'pagan king', asking questions to Sidrac about the world. Sidrac is a Christian and because he talks so openly about God, the King is converted in the end... That book is soo great!
It tells the story of Adam and Eve, and emphazises that they were equal. And yes, I'm talking about the 14th century... There are questions about everything, including herbs and stones (The stone section was not translated into Dutch, 700 years ago, it exists only in the orginal [French] version). I agree with the others... God made these stones. God created all those herbs in your garden. Use them, and don't do any harm. That's an universal law...

BlueSage
January 25th, 2008, 09:10 AM
the question is, can you be born again, leave christianity, come back and get borned agained?

oh wait, that'd be like eclectic christianity.

LOL. :lol:

lightdragon
January 25th, 2008, 09:28 AM
the question is, can you be born again, leave christianity, come back and get borned agained?

oh wait, that'd be like eclectic christianity.

LOL. :lol:

from my experience , the converters would call that person a tough one to keep.

LacunaCobra
February 1st, 2008, 09:56 PM
From my point of view you can do as you wish with matter of faith, as I view most of it to be imaginary (I'm an atheist skeptic).

I'm working under the assumption that you were/part of an evangelical movement as they usually use the term "born again" most commonly; I was raised a Pentecostal.

But under the doctrines of Evangelical Christianity, no. The evangelical movements are part of the puritan's legacy (the groups responsible for the Witch Trails) and take a very strict adherence to the bible, usually a literal interpretation (but not always). Practicing magic is a no no almost as bad as Suicide and Blaspheming the Holy spirit, and should be avoided at all costs (you shouldn't even read Harry Potter).

Now the Catholics and early Protestants used to practice magic, specifically Angelology and Demonology. They also used Tarot, Numerology, Astrology and Alchemy. But it was a fine line to walk, and more than a few practitioners were eventually accused of witchcraft (in old Christian terminology a witch was synonymous with the worst kind of heretic.)


So in conclusion, there isn't anything really stopping you practicing magic; but do not expect your fellow Christians to be very understanding... hell, they wouldn't even understand you being a member of this site.

That was very insightful, plus you made me laugh with the Harry Potter joke. My Pap still gives me the evil eye when I sit down with a Harry Potter book!

I guess you could call me Pentocostal as well, with the whole speaking in tongues thing. I guess this is just something I'm gonna have to make peace with. I'm comfortable when I'm working with my stones and sometimes I do use herbs, and I will argue with someone till I'm blue in the face that these things were put here for us to use and that's that. Why would God make such wonderful things if He didn't intend for us to use them?

lightdragon
February 1st, 2008, 11:01 PM
That was very insightful, plus you made me laugh with the Harry Potter joke. My Pap still gives me the evil eye when I sit down with a Harry Potter book!


I don`t think Infinite Grey was joking.

Infinite Grey
February 2nd, 2008, 11:33 AM
That was very insightful, plus you made me laugh with the Harry Potter joke. My Pap still gives me the evil eye when I sit down with a Harry Potter book!


I don`t think Infinite Grey was joking.

Unfortunately I wasn't joking; Considering the strong Christian influence on the last book and the subtle theme throughout the series, it is ironic that the Evangelical and Puritans sole reasoning for hating it is essentially the reference to Witchcraft.

These groups are very much against witchcraft (despite being completely ignorant to any form of witchcraft practiced).






I guess you could call me Pentocostal as well, with the whole speaking in tongues thing. I guess this is just something I'm gonna have to make peace with. I'm comfortable when I'm working with my stones and sometimes I do use herbs, and I will argue with someone till I'm blue in the face that these things were put here for us to use and that's that. Why would God make such wonderful things if He didn't intend for us to use them?

Religious people; The Major Religions particularly; Evangelic specifically are usually Willfully Ignorant of anything not related to the standard school of "thought" (and I use the term lightly) found within their particular group. It's a sad state of affairs to be sure... in your case it will probably depend heavily on what your Pastor, Reverend, Preacher has to say on the matter. The group may be more tolerant than the group norm, or even less tolerants than the rest (the westbro baptist is an example of that).

If you want to keep your Christian beliefs but engage in things that would be considered witchcraft (astrology, numerology, runes, stones, tarot and so on) break away from your current sect and go for a more general belief, non-denominational would be for the best.

David19
February 2nd, 2008, 04:33 PM
Unfortunately I wasn't joking; Considering the strong Christian influence on the last book and the subtle theme throughout the series, it is ironic that the Evangelical and Puritans sole reasoning for hating it is essentially the reference to Witchcraft.

These groups are very much against witchcraft (despite being completely ignorant to any form of witchcraft practiced).







Religious people; The Major Religions particularly; Evangelic specifically are usually Willfully Ignorant of anything not related to the standard school of "thought" (and I use the term lightly) found within their particular group. It's a sad state of affairs to be sure... in your case it will probably depend heavily on what your Pastor, Reverend, Preacher has to say on the matter. The group may be more tolerant than the group norm, or even less tolerants than the rest (the westbro baptist is an example of that).

If you want to keep your Christian beliefs but engage in things that would be considered witchcraft (astrology, numerology, runes, stones, tarot and so on) break away from your current sect and go for a more general belief, non-denominational would be for the best.

I agree with Infinite Grey, if I were you, I'd find a more tolerant or acceping version of Christianity, or hell, you don't even need to join another group, just keep your own beliefs, follow the Christian God and Jesus and any other beings from the Christian mythos you feel drawn too and be a good Christian.

And, about you practicing magic, I don't think there's a conflict, think of it this way, I think Jesus said to his disciples that he wants them to do even greater miracles than himself, I can't remember the full quote as I haven't read the Bible, but I think in one scene, Jesus is standing on the water, and asks one of his disciples to do the same, the disciple ends up flat on his ass, soaking wet, but that was 'cause he didn't have faith or something, also I think, he wanted his followers to raise the dead, exorcise demons, heal the sick, etc and, like I said, perform even greater miracles than Jesus, so I don't think you're in bad company practicing magic (also, Christian's have contributed a lot the Occultism such as techniques, etc, and there have been many Christians who've practiced magic throughout history, even Priets, Nuns, and a few Popes, I think).

Hope this helps :).

plumedsnake
February 3rd, 2008, 10:03 AM
Any christian that wears a digital watch and condemns the use of stones is a hypocrite. Most of these watches utilise the properties of quartz crystals. And also most medicines are derived from herbs too.

In fact I don't see how any 'born again' christian can stay alive without using the natural properties of the natural things that exist in the natural world.

I also don't think that many 'born again' christians actually know what it is to be born again. It exists in other religions other than christianity and means a lot more than just 'professing jesus as your saviour'. It suggests that there is something within you that needs to awaken. To be born. It is something that actually happens rather than something that you grasp intellectually or accept cerebrally.
Without being born spiritually it is impossible to understand spiritual things for these are beyond our mundane faculties. It is not a badge or a label that identifies you as a member of a club or church.
There are rather two distinct realms that we need to be active in. That which is of the Flesh is of the flesh, and that which is of the spirit is of the spirit. You cannot understand spiritual things with the faculties of the flesh hence the need to be born spiritually. Otherwise as 'we have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if we told you heavenly things'(paraphrased).

This is my understanding of it anyways. As with any text we are all free to interprete away to our hearts content. (content in both senses of the word, happiness, and what it contains).

LacunaCobra
February 4th, 2008, 06:02 PM
Unfortunately I wasn't joking; Considering the strong Christian influence on the last book and the subtle theme throughout the series, it is ironic that the Evangelical and Puritans sole reasoning for hating it is essentially the reference to Witchcraft.

These groups are very much against witchcraft (despite being completely ignorant to any form of witchcraft practiced).







Religious people; The Major Religions particularly; Evangelic specifically are usually Willfully Ignorant of anything not related to the standard school of "thought" (and I use the term lightly) found within their particular group. It's a sad state of affairs to be sure... in your case it will probably depend heavily on what your Pastor, Reverend, Preacher has to say on the matter. The group may be more tolerant than the group norm, or even less tolerants than the rest (the westbro baptist is an example of that).

If you want to keep your Christian beliefs but engage in things that would be considered witchcraft (astrology, numerology, runes, stones, tarot and so on) break away from your current sect and go for a more general belief, non-denominational would be for the best.

I don't currently belong to a church right now. My family goes to an Assembly of God church. That's the one that I've gone to in the past and would probably go to again, keeping my "other" beliefs to myself.


I agree with Infinite Grey, if I were you, I'd find a more tolerant or acceping version of Christianity, or hell, you don't even need to join another group, just keep your own beliefs, follow the Christian God and Jesus and any other beings from the Christian mythos you feel drawn too and be a good Christian.

And, about you practicing magic, I don't think there's a conflict, think of it this way, I think Jesus said to his disciples that he wants them to do even greater miracles than himself, I can't remember the full quote as I haven't read the Bible, but I think in one scene, Jesus is standing on the water, and asks one of his disciples to do the same, the disciple ends up flat on his ass, soaking wet, but that was 'cause he didn't have faith or something, also I think, he wanted his followers to raise the dead, exorcise demons, heal the sick, etc and, like I said, perform even greater miracles than Jesus, so I don't think you're in bad company practicing magic (also, Christian's have contributed a lot the Occultism such as techniques, etc, and there have been many Christians who've practiced magic throughout history, even Priets, Nuns, and a few Popes, I think).

Hope this helps :).

I've been so hurt by people that claimed to be born again Christians. When I was a teenager and was starting to show signs of being Bipolar, people that I loved as I love my family just turned their backs on me. It was devastating. I still feel the effects of it to this day. That's why I'm so reluctant to join any church. I just don't have a whole lot of trust for "Christians" anymore. :(


Any christian that wears a digital watch and condemns the use of stones is a hypocrite. Most of these watches utilise the properties of quartz crystals. And also most medicines are derived from herbs too.

In fact I don't see how any 'born again' christian can stay alive without using the natural properties of the natural things that exist in the natural world.

I also don't think that many 'born again' christians actually know what it is to be born again. It exists in other religions other than christianity and means a lot more than just 'professing jesus as your saviour'. It suggests that there is something within you that needs to awaken. To be born. It is something that actually happens rather than something that you grasp intellectually or accept cerebrally.
Without being born spiritually it is impossible to understand spiritual things for these are beyond our mundane faculties. It is not a badge or a label that identifies you as a member of a club or church.
There are rather two distinct realms that we need to be active in. That which is of the Flesh is of the flesh, and that which is of the spirit is of the spirit. You cannot understand spiritual things with the faculties of the flesh hence the need to be born spiritually. Otherwise as 'we have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if we told you heavenly things'(paraphrased).

This is my understanding of it anyways. As with any text we are all free to interprete away to our hearts content. (content in both senses of the word, happiness, and what it contains).

I was always taught that to be born again was to "die" to yourself and be "resurrected" in Christ. :smile:

plumedsnake
February 5th, 2008, 12:20 AM
I was always taught that to be born again was to "die" to yourself and be "resurrected" in Christ. :smile:

I wonder what they meant by those terms. What did you understand by those expressions? Obviously not that you had to physically be killed. Or does it mean to stop being aware of yourself. There are a number of different directions in which I could take an understanding of that.

The term actually comes from the 3rd chapter of John's gospel. From what I understand from the context Jesus is making a distinction between two worlds. The world of flesh and the world of spirit. We have to be born spiritually. just as we have been born physically and have physical senses to see and operate in the physical world, we need to be born into the spiritual world otherwise we can neither see nor enter into the spiritual realm.
The mark of spiritual people is that they are spontaneous. They live and act in the moment. Just like the wind. you don't know where it's been or where it's going but only that it is passing here now. Those not born again are caught in a deterministic existence where their behaviour is determined by the laws of whatever neurosis happens to make up their 'character'. They are what they are because of their past history and you can tell that about them. Equally the skilled psychoanalyst/con man/ salesman /whatever can also predicted what they are likely to do next.

Infinite Grey
February 5th, 2008, 05:25 AM
I don't currently belong to a church right now. My family goes to an Assembly of God church. That's the one that I've gone to in the past and would probably go to again, keeping my "other" beliefs to myself.


The Assembly of God is defiantly a Pentecostal church, it is THE Pentecostal church, being the largest (57 Million people over 200 nations).

16 Fundamental Truths
1. The Scriptures Inspired (the scriptures are the infallible word of god and are to be taken literally)
2. The One True God
3. The Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ4. The Fall of Man (The story of Adam and Eve, when they ate from the tree they experienced a spiritual death)
5. The Salvation of Man (Salvation only through Jesus; the Born Again thing)
6. The Ordinances of the Church (Baptism in Water - The ordinance of baptism by immersion is commanded by the Scriptures. And Holy Communion)
7. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit (An intense feeling of spiritual ecstasy)
8. The Initial Physical Evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. (The speaking in tongues)
9. Sanctification (An act of separation from that which is evil, and of dedication unto God. This is where your stones and other forms of witchcraft is a big no no)
10. The Church and its Mission (Abiding to the Great Commission, aka mission work, spreading to the good word fo the lord :hehehehe: )
11. The Ministry (Evangelization of the world, Worship of God, Building a body of saints being perfected in the image of His Son)
12. Divine Healing (Think TV evangelists)
13. The Blessed Hope (Bringing back the "Back-sliden"
14. The Millennial Reign of Christ (Second coming, Rapture and all that jazz)
15. The Final Judgment (Whether you get to hang with god in heaven or burn in hell)
16. The New Heavens and the New Earth (After the End Times, the Earth will be made anew.)

lightdragon
February 5th, 2008, 06:47 AM
The Assembly of God is defiantly a Pentecostal church, it is THE Pentecostal church, being the largest (57 Million people over 200 nations).

16 Fundamental Truths
1. The Scriptures Inspired (the scriptures are the infallible word of god and are to be taken literally)
2. The One True God
3. The Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ4. The Fall of Man (The story of Adam and Eve, when they ate from the tree they experienced a spiritual death)
5. The Salvation of Man (Salvation only through Jesus; the Born Again thing)
6. The Ordinances of the Church (Baptism in Water - The ordinance of baptism by immersion is commanded by the Scriptures. And Holy Communion)
nothing to add to the above


7. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit (An intense feeling of spiritual ecstasy)
8. The Initial Physical Evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. (The speaking in tongues)9. Sanctification (An act of separation from that which is evil, and of dedication unto God. This is where your stones and other forms of witchcraft is a big no no)

This is where you are supposed to get your powers from. not from stones. Stones are the earth itself ,or part of it. "Where moth and rust destroy and thieves break in and steal"-Matthew 6:19. Ok , so moths will have a hard time destroying stones, however rust will destroy some stones and ALL stones are subject to thieves.


10. The Church and its Mission (Abiding to the Great Commission, aka mission work, spreading to the good word fo the lord :hehehehe: )
11. The Ministry (Evangelization of the world, Worship of God, Building a body of saints being perfected in the image of His Son)
12. Divine Healing (Think TV evangelists)
13. The Blessed Hope (Bringing back the "Back-sliden"
14. The Millennial Reign of Christ (Second coming, Rapture and all that jazz)
15. The Final Judgment (Whether you get to hang with god in heaven or burn in hell)
16. The New Heavens and the New Earth (After the End Times, the Earth will be made anew.)
bottom line to this view, you can only use prayer and faith. I don`t agree with it, just in case someone thinks I`m agreeing with this viewpoint.

Infinite Grey
February 5th, 2008, 07:25 AM
bottom line to this view, you can only use prayer and faith. I don`t agree with it, just in case someone thinks I`m agreeing with this viewpoint.

I most defiantly do not agree with these stuff; I'm an anti-religious Atheist... But I do find religions fascinating regardless, I think it is a good idea to study them. Pentecostalism was my "original" (Christianity) religion, so I know a little about it.

IvyWitch
February 5th, 2008, 08:03 AM
I don't have anything to add to what Infinite Grey said.

However, I will say that you may want to take some time to really think hard about why exactly it is that you believe in both evangelical Christianity and elements of witchcraft, and when you have that worked out, then it may also be prudent to question why you believe in both Christianity and witchcraft.

I'm not saying that Christianity is bad, however it's been my experience that those interested in Paganism and coming from a strict Christian household often find it difficult to let go of their Christian upbringing for reasons other than that they truly believe in it.

GabrielWithoutWings
February 5th, 2008, 08:40 AM
I hope you guys don't mind an intrusion, but perhaps a liberal Episcopalian parish may be the ticket? Has elements of both high and low church, women and married bishops, gay bishops, etc.

I'm sure they'd let you slide.

Also, the Liberal Catholic Church International allows for Theosophical views from clergy if I remember correctly.

plumedsnake
February 5th, 2008, 08:42 AM
8. The Initial Physical Evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. (The speaking in tongues)

It's funny how such a big deal is made of this speaking in tongues malarkey. I like to bring up the other gifts. like the speaking in tongues is supposed to be of men and of angels. The do the tongue of angels bit with great aplomb but when I enquire about the tongues of men they get strangely evasive.

I ain't ever been to any church where anybody just spontaneously breaks out into cantonese. or even german or french which are close european language. Out of politeness I hesitate to throw it in their faces that that would be because these tongues are easily verifiable tongues while the tongue of angels . . . well . . . Bababu rattatattakimanana di can lutu. y'know what I mean?

Infinite Grey
February 5th, 2008, 08:55 AM
It's funny how such a big deal is made of this speaking in tongues malarkey. I like to bring up the other gifts. like the speaking in tongues is supposed to be of men and of angels. The do the tongue of angels bit with great aplomb but when I enquire about the tongues of men they get strangely evasive.

I ain't ever been to any church where anybody just spontaneously breaks out into cantonese. or even german or french which are close european language. Out of politeness I hesitate to throw it in their faces that that would be because these tongues are easily verifiable tongues while the tongue of angels . . . well . . . Bababu rattatattakimanana di can lutu. y'know what I mean?

I know exactly what you mean.

They do not like it when you ask them about that; usually they (as in the evangelical churches) do not like it when you question their (or your) beliefs at all.

Those services are scary. :hehehehe: People flopping around on the floor like they're insane, jabbering on in gibberish, laughing hysterically like someone spiked the communion wine with LSD or Hash. (They call it being "drunk on the spirit") 3 hour "worship" services (the service that comes before the main service, usually involving lots of bad country music rip offs, and people acting like loons.) Ok, usually it's only 30 minutes to an hour, but I've experienced a 3 hour session when the "spirit" was in the church.

Honestly, I do not remember ever really believing. And I was a Sunday School Teacher (whom got fired for teaching the kids basic biology instead of bible verses) and was at one stage on the way to being a pastor (I started the training.)

IvyWitch
February 5th, 2008, 11:23 AM
Those services are scary. :hehehehe: People flopping around on the floor like they're insane, jabbering on in gibberish, laughing hysterically like someone spiked the communion wine with LSD or Hash. (They call it being "drunk on the spirit") 3 hour "worship" services (the service that comes before the main service, usually involving lots of bad country music rip offs, and people acting like loons.) Ok, usually it's only 30 minutes to an hour, but I've experienced a 3 hour session when the "spirit" was in the church.

I know what you mean. I've had similar experiences.

And, yet...those same people would listen to a description of, or watch a Pagan ceremony and think it was crazy.

I'm actually surprised there isn't something about prophecy on the list. For some reason that seems to play a huge role in AOG churches.

Infinite Grey
February 5th, 2008, 11:50 AM
I know what you mean. I've had similar experiences.

And, yet...those same people would listen to a description of, or watch a Pagan ceremony and think it was crazy.

I'm actually surprised there isn't something about prophecy on the list. For some reason that seems to play a huge role in AOG churches.


Well Prophecy is one of the "Gifts" of the holy spirit... within the Pentecostalism there are a whole bunch of different "gifts", everyone has access to them; but some individuals are supposed follow these gifts. And yes, Prophets are one of them; they usually cruise around like Showmen Psychics... I'm actually surprised that the media hasn't had a field day with them... though I guess the Faith Healers are the worst.

From memory, some of the Gifts include... Musician, Apostle (Setting up churches), Pastoral (Leading a congregation), Prophecy, Healing, Evangelizing (Preaching to the heathens, the lost and the saved in a charismatic way), Missionary (Helping people as a form of preaching, a little deceitful if you ask me as they often won't help those whom do not want to listen to them) and so on.

What frustrates me is that many Christians do not even know this much about their own religion, especially the Evangelical and Puritans.

Lahmi
February 14th, 2008, 09:47 PM
"Can you be a born-again Christian and still practice some forms of magick?"

of course you can.

The more interesting question is: should you?

To that I would have to say, no.

David19
February 16th, 2008, 09:48 PM
"Can you be a born-again Christian and still practice some forms of magick?"

of course you can.

The more interesting question is: should you?

To that I would have to say, no.

That is an interesting question, but is there any particular reason for that?.

Wood Nymph
February 16th, 2008, 11:22 PM
I think there are definite similarities between Christian and pagan practices. Quite some time ago, I had a house for sale. It was on the market for nearly a year. I was getting very anxious. I talked with various friends and got suggestions for rituals that might help. A Catholic friend suggested a ritual involving St. Joseph. A Wiccan friend suggested a couple of rituals. I was surprised at how truly similar the rituals were. I created my own blended ritual that took some from the Catholic ritual, some from the Wiccan, and then I threw in some Reiki and energy work as well.

So, can you be witchy and Christian at the same time? SURE! The practices really aren't that far apart sometimes. The big question is whether your beliefs and practices will be accepted. I think you'll find people here more accepting of the idea of a Christian-Pagan than you will in your church.

Good luck to you!

Shanti
February 16th, 2008, 11:45 PM
Just follow your own heart, not what your told is right or wrong, should be or shouldn't.
Thats where your truth will be, inside you.

plumedsnake
February 17th, 2008, 08:45 AM
I think you'll find people here more accepting of the idea of a Christian-Pagan than you will in your church.

Good luck to you!


I don't know about that. I seen posts here where people are railing against christian pagans and calling it a contradictions etc.

Tullip Troll
February 17th, 2008, 08:59 AM
no no no, you can not be a born again christian and still practise magic. You're just kidding yourself.

MAGIC IS OF THE DEVIL !!! :deviltail

everyone knows sheep can not use tarot cards, they have no hands :rollingla

imapepper
February 25th, 2008, 06:27 PM
No.

If you're a Christian who takes the bible literally, you wouldn't even be posting on this site, and that's what a Born Again Christian is.

Thankfully, I'm Catholic. ;)

Against The Tide
February 25th, 2008, 08:27 PM
Magic is non-denominational, it can be used in conjunction with or separate from any church, temple or any set of religious or spiritual beliefs.

Every different church has its own magic. You see those Chritian faith healers on TV? Well performing miracles (well they are charlatens IMO) is magical is it not? They call upon their chosen diety and use nothing but their will to make changes. I know alot of the older churches have magic systems, I was raised a RC, that place is dripping in the earth religions they absorbed...

lightdragon
February 25th, 2008, 08:52 PM
Magic is non-denominational, it can be used in conjunction with or separate from any church, temple or any set of religious or spiritual beliefs.

Every different church has its own magic. You see those Chritian faith healers on TV? Well performing miracles (well they are charlatens IMO) is magical is it not? They call upon their chosen diety and use nothing but their will to make changes. I know alot of the older churches have magic systems, I was raised a RC, that place is dripping in the earth religions they absorbed...

try telling them they are doing magic.

LadyCelt
April 9th, 2008, 01:14 PM
As far as the structured church's view, especially how conservative "born-again" is, this may be viewed as not acceptable. However, I believe one's spiritual path is THEIR spiritual path and between them and what they believe in and nobody or nothing else.

Jeremy Westenn
April 9th, 2008, 07:27 PM
No. You can't. This is one of the few times where I will gladly pull people in our community over and tell you that these things do not mix. The religious beliefs of Christianity are explicit.

Sage Rainsong
April 9th, 2008, 08:50 PM
You can certainly practice some forms of magic if you feel that it can fit into your spirituality. Magic isn't tied to any religion in particular. However, you may have a problem because most born again Christians that I know would disapprove of anything that is occult related.

dragoncrone
April 9th, 2008, 10:23 PM
Why do you want to?

It's like asking, 'Can I be a vegetarian and still eat chicken?' Duh. Of course not! You either believe in being a vegetarian (or a B.A. Xtian), or you don't.

Are you just 'playing Xtian' to appease your family, and delving into pagan pursuits out of a hunger for more information?

Or are you just playing at being a pagan because you think it's cool, and then scurrying back to the uncontroversial safety of your church?

You don't need to answer to us. But you do need to answer yourself. Good luck.

Jeremy Westenn
April 9th, 2008, 10:50 PM
Dragon hit it on the head. Most everyone that I have met who insists on some sort of practice mixing Wicca, Witchcraft, and Christianity is a person I'd say that likes the things these different religions have to offer, these different practices, but are still hung up on Christianity and being a Christian.

/shrug

Just what I've seen,

Lajmar
April 9th, 2008, 11:21 PM
People have been mixing Christianity with magic for ages. One has merely to look at the folk magic of Pow Wow and Hoodoo to see that. Many of the older practitioners of these systems were in fact devout Christians who utilize/d what we would term magic. I would check out John George Hohman's The Long Lost Friend, or Cat Yronwoods website the luckymojo for more info.

Amanda Mitchell
April 10th, 2008, 12:07 AM
This one's a huge struggle for me. I was brought up in a Christian home and became born again at the age of 10, baptized at 11. I work with stones and crystals mainly, and I know God put them here for a reason, so that we can learn from them and use their healing abilities, but every once in a while I have this voice in the back of my head that says, "You shouldn't be so concerned with stones and crystals. You should rely on God solely for your strength." It drives me crazy yet I still continue to work with my crystals. Does anyone have any encouraging thoughts? :)
You sound a lot like me... I was raised in a Christian (Baptist) home... and to this day, my mom still thinks that it is "so sad" that I am Pagan now.... and I know she thinks I am going to hell... although she won't come right and say it.

I just tell her "well if I am "wrong" and if God is really as loving and forgiving as Christians say he is, He will forgive me."

*pssst... but to be honest, I still struggle with that nagging voice sometimes too*

lightdragon
April 10th, 2008, 02:22 AM
People have been mixing Christianity with magic for ages. One has merely to look at the folk magic of Pow Wow and Hoodoo to see that.

From what I gathered Hoodoo is primarily a pagan religion that uses Christian saints as well certain African deities. Pow Wow is more of what you said.

Lajmar
April 10th, 2008, 05:34 PM
From what I gathered Hoodoo is primarily a pagan religion that uses Christian saints as well certain African deities. Pow Wow is more of what you said.

That is actually Vodoun/Vodu/Voodoun,which is a religious practice that you are thinking of. Hoodoo is a magical practice, much of it derived from African, Native American, and European folk magic sources . It can have religious connotations depending on the practitioner and its core beliefs are derived from African religio-magical sources, however is very much a practice rather than a religion in and of itself. Here is the link to Cats Yronwoods page which discusses what hoodoo is and gives a very good history if you are interested.
http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoohistory.html

LacunaCobra
May 8th, 2008, 11:36 PM
Any christian that wears a digital watch and condemns the use of stones is a hypocrite. Most of these watches utilise the properties of quartz crystals. And also most medicines are derived from herbs too.

In fact I don't see how any 'born again' christian can stay alive without using the natural properties of the natural things that exist in the natural world.

I also don't think that many 'born again' christians actually know what it is to be born again. It exists in other religions other than christianity and means a lot more than just 'professing jesus as your saviour'. It suggests that there is something within you that needs to awaken. To be born. It is something that actually happens rather than something that you grasp intellectually or accept cerebrally.
Without being born spiritually it is impossible to understand spiritual things for these are beyond our mundane faculties. It is not a badge or a label that identifies you as a member of a club or church.
There are rather two distinct realms that we need to be active in. That which is of the Flesh is of the flesh, and that which is of the spirit is of the spirit. You cannot understand spiritual things with the faculties of the flesh hence the need to be born spiritually. Otherwise as 'we have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if we told you heavenly things'(paraphrased).

This is my understanding of it anyways. As with any text we are all free to interprete away to our hearts content. (content in both senses of the word, happiness, and what it contains).

Basically it is dying to your own flesh and surrendering your life to God and allowing the Holy Spirit to come into your heart.


I wonder what they meant by those terms. What did you understand by those expressions? Obviously not that you had to physically be killed. Or does it mean to stop being aware of yourself. There are a number of different directions in which I could take an understanding of that.

The term actually comes from the 3rd chapter of John's gospel. From what I understand from the context Jesus is making a distinction between two worlds. The world of flesh and the world of spirit. We have to be born spiritually. just as we have been born physically and have physical senses to see and operate in the physical world, we need to be born into the spiritual world otherwise we can neither see nor enter into the spiritual realm.
The mark of spiritual people is that they are spontaneous. They live and act in the moment. Just like the wind. you don't know where it's been or where it's going but only that it is passing here now. Those not born again are caught in a deterministic existence where their behaviour is determined by the laws of whatever neurosis happens to make up their 'character'. They are what they are because of their past history and you can tell that about them. Equally the skilled psychoanalyst/con man/ salesman /whatever can also predicted what they are likely to do next.

I agree.


I don't have anything to add to what Infinite Grey said.

However, I will say that you may want to take some time to really think hard about why exactly it is that you believe in both evangelical Christianity and elements of witchcraft, and when you have that worked out, then it may also be prudent to question why you believe in both Christianity and witchcraft.

I'm not saying that Christianity is bad, however it's been my experience that those interested in Paganism and coming from a strict Christian household often find it difficult to let go of their Christian upbringing for reasons other than that they truly believe in it.

I believe in both because I've experienced them both. I've seen people healed, people speaking in tongues, dancing in the spirit, prayers being answered... I've also been part of rituals where afterwards I felt like I could fly, so peaceful and serene. I've seen how my stones work for me and how smudging makes my house feel warm and protected and cleansed. I've had wonderful experiences from both Christianity and Paganism.


I hope you guys don't mind an intrusion, but perhaps a liberal Episcopalian parish may be the ticket? Has elements of both high and low church, women and married bishops, gay bishops, etc.

I'm sure they'd let you slide.

Also, the Liberal Catholic Church International allows for Theosophical views from clergy if I remember correctly.

I'm thinking of joining the Catholic church!


I know exactly what you mean.

They do not like it when you ask them about that; usually they (as in the evangelical churches) do not like it when you question their (or your) beliefs at all.

Those services are scary. :hehehehe: People flopping around on the floor like they're insane, jabbering on in gibberish, laughing hysterically like someone spiked the communion wine with LSD or Hash. (They call it being "drunk on the spirit") 3 hour "worship" services (the service that comes before the main service, usually involving lots of bad country music rip offs, and people acting like loons.) Ok, usually it's only 30 minutes to an hour, but I've experienced a 3 hour session when the "spirit" was in the church.

Honestly, I do not remember ever really believing. And I was a Sunday School Teacher (whom got fired for teaching the kids basic biology instead of bible verses) and was at one stage on the way to being a pastor (I started the training.)

I know exactly what you are talking about!


Why do you want to?

It's like asking, 'Can I be a vegetarian and still eat chicken?' Duh. Of course not! You either believe in being a vegetarian (or a B.A. Xtian), or you don't.

Are you just 'playing Xtian' to appease your family, and delving into pagan pursuits out of a hunger for more information?

Or are you just playing at being a pagan because you think it's cool, and then scurrying back to the uncontroversial safety of your church?

You don't need to answer to us. But you do need to answer yourself. Good luck.

I'm not "playing" Christian to appease anybody. I know what I believe in my heart and nothing or no one can take that away from me. I do NOT practice aspects of Wicca and Paganism just because I think they're "cool". I also know what I believe in my heart about those too that no one can take from me. I've never "scurried" back to a church over feeling guilty about practicing Pagan beliefs. I practice what I believe and believe in what I practice.

Carri
July 3rd, 2008, 04:24 AM
the question is, can you be born again, leave christianity, come back and get borned agained?

oh wait, that'd be like eclectic christianity.

LOL. :lol:


Christians called it backsliding when I used to go to church about 15 years ago.

Carri
July 3rd, 2008, 04:33 AM
That was very insightful, plus you made me laugh with the Harry Potter joke. My Pap still gives me the evil eye when I sit down with a Harry Potter book!



I have yet to meet a Christian againt Harry Potter who has even read the books, they tend to just regurgate the supposed evils some minister or youth pastor or bible study group leader or music minister (or the guy down the street) told them. All of them are assuming that they got the correct info but not bothering to check it. Big, BIG peeve of mine!

Sorry for the off topic rant.

Pneumatikos
August 1st, 2008, 03:48 AM
As Christians our message is Christ and His sacrifice. However, How to worship and connect to the Divine is left up to the individual. The old testament was filled with laws and "Thou shalt not" Jesus said only to love each other, God with all your heart, and go teach what He taught.
By the way... God in Genesis 1 is Elohim which is Male/Female plural

Lahmi
September 7th, 2008, 06:27 PM
No.

If you're a Christian who takes the bible literally, you wouldn't even be posting on this site, and that's what a Born Again Christian is.

Thankfully, I'm Catholic. ;)
LOL
I'm a christian and I'm here.. :)

mark

Lahmi
September 7th, 2008, 06:37 PM
That is an interesting question, but is there any particular reason for that?.
actually yes, there are several but one that is overriding.
As followers of Jesus, we are supposed to trust in Him and his will.
Not work our own will upon the situation.
hmm

here, I wrote it out some time ago:
http://www.ancientcrossroads.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3&Itemid=1

the text is white for some reason, I'll try to get that fixed.


mark

Cloaked Raven
September 7th, 2008, 07:44 PM
LOL
I'm a christian and I'm here.. :)

mark
:eyebrow:

If you're posting on this board, you have to be very open minded or are want to learn more about other religious paths. Enough said.

*walks away*

Lahmi
September 7th, 2008, 10:30 PM
:eyebrow:

If you're posting on this board, you have to be very open minded or are want to learn more about other religious paths. Enough said.

*walks away*
:)
I also happen to believe my bible. :)

mark

ChristaWitch
September 28th, 2008, 03:45 PM
I don't see why Christianity and magic cannot go hand in hand. They did go hand in hand for many centuries, after all.

I don't see an incompatibility, although I would say that there are certain things which Christians - or more properly, Jews - are prohibited from doing in the Torah, certain kinds of divination, necromancy and malefic witchcraft, for instance. Otherwise I don't see a problem.

Lahmi
October 2nd, 2008, 11:46 PM
I don't see why Christianity and magic cannot go hand in hand. They did go hand in hand for many centuries, after all.

I don't see an incompatibility, although I would say that there are certain things which Christians - or more properly, Jews - are prohibited from doing in the Torah, certain kinds of divination, necromancy and malefic witchcraft, for instance. Otherwise I don't see a problem.

They don't go hand in hand because of some basic underlying principles involved
in both.

1 Peter 5:7
7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

Philippians 4:12-13
12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

1 Thessalonians 5:16-18
16 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

This is opposed to the working of your will through magic.
As followers of Jesus, we are supposed to trust and follow Him, willing for His will to be done instead of ours.

Darth Brooks
October 2nd, 2008, 11:49 PM
This is opposed to the working of your will through magic.
As followers of Jesus, we are supposed to trust and follow Him, willing for His will to be done instead of ours.

Aleister Crowley once wrote that magick is "the Yoga of the West."

Two words:

Bhakti yoga.

:)

Lahmi
October 2nd, 2008, 11:57 PM
This one's a huge struggle for me. I was brought up in a Christian home and became born again at the age of 10, baptized at 11. I work with stones and crystals mainly, and I know God put them here for a reason, so that we can learn from them and use their healing abilities, but every once in a while I have this voice in the back of my head that says, "You shouldn't be so concerned with stones and crystals. You should rely on God solely for your strength." It drives me crazy yet I still continue to work with my crystals. Does anyone have any encouraging thoughts? :)
Now, returning to the OP for a moment, the most encouraging thought that I
have for you is that God is still trying to get your attention. :)
Look, just because followers of Jesus are not supposed to use magic, that does
not mean they have no access to spiritual power. The power and authority that
works in our lives comes from Jesus, when we follow Him.

*~Amora~*
October 3rd, 2008, 12:40 AM
This one's a huge struggle for me. I was brought up in a Christian home and became born again at the age of 10, baptized at 11. I work with stones and crystals mainly, and I know God put them here for a reason, so that we can learn from them and use their healing abilities, but every once in a while I have this voice in the back of my head that says, "You shouldn't be so concerned with stones and crystals. You should rely on God solely for your strength." It drives me crazy yet I still continue to work with my crystals. Does anyone have any encouraging thoughts? :)

Dear, you can believe what you want to believe, there is no "should" involved. Or simply put, you believe what you believe, and that's just fine. Don't feel guilty.

As for being a Christian and using stones vs. relying on your God alone for strength - technically the commandments require you to worship Him above all other gods, and to not worship idols - at least that's my understanding. As long as you aren't worshiping the crystals, you shouldn't have broken your pact with Him.