How would a pantheist define god?

[gwendar]

I have to say I'm somewhat reluctant to post this thread and ask questions... I've been idenitfying as an atheist for perhaps a year and a half now. I was interested in paganism and pantheism and such things before, but eventually came to the stance that I couldn't know anything about god, and that there is no evidence that a god or gods exist.
I don't like the idea of taking things on faith, belief without evidence.
But lately I've been thinking about spirituality again, and wondering if I've been too closed minded, and if it deserves another chance.... Anyway, on to the topic:

I (think) know pantheism is the belief that everything is god, that the universe is divine, or something sort of like that...
But how exactly do you define god? What is god/universe? If the universe is Divine, what does that even mean? It seems my ability to think in spiritual terms has been impeded.

I was wondering how big the differences are between non-theism and pantheism...

Sorry about the incoherence, I'm not sure exactly how to ask the question, and I guess I'm even a little uncomfortable asking it...

Thanks:)

[Xentor]

Your question is quite valid. After all: if all is divine, then why bother defining it as such at all?

My specific path knows a partial pantheism. We believe God gave their life to us, sacrificed their own life in order to spark ours (and that of the rest of our universe). That's a gift of immense proportion, and something to be thankful for... but at the same time it's useless to give thanks because God is no more... their energy dispersed among creation.

So how do we recognise divinity? Personally I like to study nature and amaze myself with its intricacies and beauty. I hug a tree while I remind myself that this being breathes out what I breathe in, and vice versa. I avoid swatting the spider in the corner because I know it feeds on the mosquitos that would otherwise feast on my body. I look at the sheet of glass on the table and wonder how it is that gravity doesn't pull me right through. Down there, deep in the heart of the matter where our scientific methods can only report but not explain, that's where the divine can be found.

[Eleisawolf]

Hi Gwendar!

If you note our FAQ (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=159815), you'll probably realize a few different answers to your question.

Firstly, you'll see that many of us shy away from the word "god," let alone the concept. Many (not all of us) prefer the word "divinity."

Second, you'll note that the word "divinity" is defined in several different ways by several different people. Some pantheists think it's sentient, some don't. Some think it's spiritual, others are sure it's simply natural.

But what tends to be common with all of us is a reverence, admiration, love for nature in all its forms, and a desire to live by what truly is and understand the facts of this universe--we don't believe that there's any separate existence. Even if there are gods, they don't exist in a separate "place" from us. They have to be part of the universe, too. We also don't like the idea of deluding ourselves with things for which there is no evidence, though we leave ourselves at least moderately open to the fact that we don't know all the evidence there is to look for, yet, nor do we remotely understand everything that is out there to be searched for. What Is, in our amazing and varied existence, is all there is. But considering the wonder of it all, that's enough for us, really.

For my own part, divinity is the fact, as some scientists and philosophers see it, that the universe we know came into being under the perfect conditions that allowed it to evolve creatures that can learn about it and understand it. It doesn't mean that those creatures are the center of it or the pinnacle, by any means. But, ultimately, since we are ALL the universe, our wonderfully expansive What Is actually came to be in a way that allowed it to come to understand itself. Something in me wants to celebrate that. I call it divinity.

Peace

[cheddarsox]

Simple answer...I don't define god.

extended answer...to me the term "god" refers to a sentient being, due to the way it is used in my culture. So I don't use the term because I don't believe that a supreme being exists that runs the Universe.

I believe the Universe runs itself...thus, it has one of the roles that "god" would have, if "god" existed...but that does not make it "god".

The term "divine" is often used to refer to things that are godlike...have power, and are part of ultimate truth. I sometimes use the term Divine when I refer to the power and ultimate truth that I find in the Universe, because it is more parallel to what I believe than the term "god" is...and because in my language, there are not a lot of words that most people understand that explain and refer to my understanding of the Universe.

The Universe is not Divine because it is better than something, or seperate from something or supernatural...it is Divine, because it is all the things divine things are...true, powerful, awesome, etc.

For me, pantheism is a non-theistic belief system. There is no god, there is What Is. It is also agnostic (for me) in that I do not attempt to define or limit the Universe, it's roles, powers, purpose, etc, by my limited understanding or with my limited language. I will say what I know and believe about it, but do not pretend that I know or believe, or am capable of knowing and believing the whole of it. Nor do I think it is critical to do so.

The Universe doesn't need me to know, believe, honor, worship, or get excited over it. If I do...fine, if I don't...fine. That is one of the things that leads me to honor, and worship it (and I do, not all pans do, but I do), because it clearly is in control, unbiased, and ultimately powerful.

There may be something beyond the Universe...I don't know, and can't know, so I don't worry over it. That is why I am a pantheist, rather than a panentheist, because what I can never know...really isn't an issue for me. I am finite, and my life short, so I'm not going to spend it speculating on things that are beyond my ability to sense...on any level. I focus on what I can know and experience...this Universe.

I define "god" as a being that has powers beyond what humans are capable of and an interest in humans, and a relationship to humans and the physical world they live in...though the being itself is not limited to the physical world. That is how I define the term 'god', but I don't believe those beings actually exist.

If they do, and it is important for me to interact with them, I trust what their followers say...that they have the interest, power and will to contact me and let me know.

till then..I will honor that which I do know and experience...the Universe.

I never explain my faith as Universe= god, because it causes people to draw erroneous conclusions and parallels that make them misunderstand my faith.

Over the years...I continue to be amazed at the depth of pantheism..that it is not a simple equation, that continued practice and contemplation result in a deeper sense of honor and worship and connectedness. When I first started...I had no idea what I was saying, how true it was, how meaningful.
It seemed so much simpler than other faiths and beliefs...but really it isn't simple and easy, it is a wondrous journey.

[Windsmith]

I may have more to add on this subject later, but right now I'm tired and not thinking well, so I will just say:

I love you all. I love you all and wish you were all within my arms' reach so I could hug you breathless. You, gwendar, for asking the question so well, and you, Xen, Eleisawolf, and cheddar for answering it so well. Y'all do Pantheism proud.

[TygerTyger]

How would a pantheist define god?

I resisted the temptation to make a “quick reply” as I think that your question deserves more contemplation and a more considered response.

In order to answer it I must describe a few of the premises that my own personal belief is based upon, these are;

1. That life is energy and energy cannot be destroyed.
2. That the universe is made up of matter and energy.
3. That matter can attract energy and energy can attract matter, and when both are combined life can occur.
4. That the breakdown of matter releases the energy it once contained.
5. That the spark of energy in any living organism is the same regardless of how simple or complex the organisms may be.
6. That consciousness is a result of the relationship between energy and matter in the form of a complex organism and is, in itself, another form of energy and cannot, therefore, be destroyed.
7. That energy can coalesce and when this happens with consciousness it creates an intellect that is a part of the fabric of the universe.

This is not a strict codification of my beliefs, and I hope that I never produce one, but it helps illustrate, from my point of view, God’s place in my Pantheism. I do not see God as a judgemental old man with long hair and a beard sitting upon a throne. I do see God as an immense intellect unencumbered by the restrictions of a material body that is a necessary part of existence.

Does that make any sense?

[ismenewants]

Ohhh, I'll feel silly no matter what I say... You've all answered so beautifully already. (:

For me, "god" is everything and nothing. I see divinity in the sun and the stars and the snow. I find it in the way the universe fits together: the way people interact with each other and the rest of nature, the way the ocean meets the shore, the way clouds collide. The human body, for example, is amazing. Each one is a universe all its own... In a way, we are each the god of ourselves.

At the same time, though, that's not a belief set that really allows for the existence of gods, in the traditional sense. The driving forces of this world--gravity, strong force, psychology, weather, etc--are impossible to understand completely, at least at this time, and they, with their mystery, are as much of "gods" as I need. They control the universe, and I, for one, will never understand how or why. I can't hope to control them, but to observe them is amazing to me.

-Ismene

[gwendar]

Thank you everyone for your very thoughtful replies. You all have made interesting points to consider. :)

[Diotima]

I don't define divine either. I think that because Christianity -a major religion and cultural influence in countries where most of us live- emphasizes believing in a God, we easily get trapped by the thought that God must be something that we can define and thus, believe in.
It has very slowly begun to dawn to me, that my Path is quite different. As a Pantheist, I don't believe I'm required to believe anything. I'm not required of being able to put my religious experience into words. I can simply experience Divine, feel it around me and even interact with It without having to be able to explain it. Deep down, I feel that when faced with the vastness and complexity of What Is, the best descriptions I could come up with would be crude and sorry anyway.
Universe does not require anything from me. Yet, if I so choose, I can honor It, learn from It, celebrate It and try to improve It. I can be a passive spectator, but if I want to, I have the potential to become a small but active force in the Universe via my capability to do good. I could be a passive spectator, or I could be an active agent. The choice is mine, and perhaps there are no rewards. But I believe that good is its own reward, so I have chosen to try to live well.

Science is a wonderful system of gathering reliable information about the universe. But ponder this: How does science progress and discover new things? If you believe that science as we now know it is a reliable and complete description about the Universe, then, logically, science could not discover new things and progress. There would be nothing to discover. I would find it strange to believe that scientific discovery happens only because new things pop up into existence. No. I believe that science is a fine system, but it has its limitations and it is incomplete. Therefore it does not deny existence of things it can not describe.

Another, more Pantheist thought: I believe that Universe is conscious and thinking...and I can prove it (well enough for myself anyway). I believe that I am a part of the Universe. I believe that I do not exist in a bubble but am intertwined to the rest of existence. It sustains me and one day, it will kill me. I can perceive that I, as far as I can perceive, am a thinking being. Therefore, it is true that I, as a consciousness "am the atom's way of thinking themselves". Divine Universe is not something out there. It is right here, it is everywhere and I am a small part of it. Because there is nothing more than All That Is, surely that All is the closest approximation of Divine that I can think of.

To finish it, while I find the idea of a single, omnipotent and personal God impossible, to me it is possible that there are some slightly lesser but still very powerful beings that might deserve to be called Deities. These beings would be like some very advanced aliens who have powers or knowledge that would make them seem magical or miraculous from our perspective.
Or it is possible that there are "strings" in the Universe- chains of things and thoughts, so long and powerful that they would appear to us as personal and divine.
I have never perceived this kind of entities. I don't know whether or not such beings exist. But, their existence seems like a theoretical possibility to me, so I try to be open-minded just in case. This is very different from believing in something definite and easily describable. I guess you could say that I try to live my life so that there is a possibility for appearance of Gods. It is possible, that if I didn't give the possible Them this chance, I might not see Them even if they one day decided to land on my backyard. It is well known that observation is underdetermined by theory- we see things we expect to see and explain our observations in terms that fit into our preexisting conceptions...