Many questions that are basically one question:

[Toki Wartooth]

How do you believe in some things and not others?

Examples:
If you're a non-theistic pagan that believes in astrology, tarot, or any one or more forms of divination, why? How do you reconcile the disbelief in one spiritual area with the belief in another?

If you're a theistic pagan but don't believe in any form of divination, why? How?

If you don't believe in karma but believe in reincarnation, why? How?

...I hope someone gets my idea here.

I was talking with one of my friends (wtfmaing here, though she only signed up a few minutes ago, haha) about how I was missing the days when I considered myself pagan, and that I could kind of get back into polytheism but could definitely not go back into astrology because I didn't think astrology made enough sense. But, we talked more about it, and then I started realizing I don't know why I thought polytheism made more sense than astrology. Why would it? I've been agnostic on/off for most of my life, so I'm not sure entirely why I think polytheism makes more sense than monotheism...because it answers "the problem of evil" for me? But, then it feels like polytheism is covering its butt by responding with gods that aren't entirely good (like Loki or Mercury), which is something I accused astrology of doing (by being vague in descriptions and pointing to other planets or houses or the like for explanations).

Sorry if that's rambly or unclear. I can go into more detail if asked. I'm mainly just asking how some people--not exactly "pick and choose" what to believe because I don't think that's what's going on--believe in some spiritual/religious/&c. concepts and not others.

Also, I was having trouble searching for other threads/posts on this topic. I tried a few phrases and whatnot, but I didn't find any that really answered my question/s. If there are any that I didn't miss, feel free to link me? Aaaand, apologies if this has been discussed before.

[cheddarsox]

How do you believe in some things and not others?

Examples:
If you're a non-theistic pagan that believes in astrology, tarot, or any one or more forms of divination, why? How do you reconcile the disbelief in one spiritual area with the belief in another?

If you're a theistic pagan but don't believe in any form of divination, why? How?

If you don't believe in karma but believe in reincarnation, why? How?

...I hope someone gets my idea here.



I think it is like this...people have different theories (in this case spiritual or religious or scientific) for how and why things happen as they do.

In a truly Unified theory, there would be no contradictions, one explanation would suffice, but still might not be "logical" in human terms, because what we consider "logical" has to do with the way we think, not the way things are. There is no reason to assume the Universe or deities use the same logic that we do.

But most people haven't had the time, experience and chance to form a truly unified theory, and certainly not one that is likely to hold up against all challenges...so we adopt various theories as we go along, modifying them as we learn and experience more.

Personally, I don't see what astrology has to do with theism at all. There do seem to be some truth to the astrological influences, but I assumed it was physics...not anything supernatural.

I think divination is about using tools that allow you to access your own unconscious knowledge, not about getting the assistance of spirits to tell you what is what.

So I don't see a contradiction between a belief in astrology and the use of divination tools and the lack of belief in spirits or a divine being. It has to do with my theories of how those things work...or don't work.

Also, it is not only possible for people to believe contradictory things, but I've never met anyone who doesn't hold contradictory beliefs. Our brains do what works, more often than they bother over what makes sense or fits with everything else that "works". Most of us aren't using a strict scientific and logic method to get through our days...we do what works in a given situation, even though five minutes later we will use the exact opposite approach in a different situation.

Did you ever love and hate someone at the same time? Our brains are very capable of holding all sorts of contradictory beliefs, this adaptability has served humanity well.

that's what I suspect is going on.

interesting question!

cheddar

[Solya]

I believe in the spiritual concepts that work for me. I guess that's the bottom line of things for me. I reconcile my disbelief in some things quite easily with the things I do believe, because the things I do believe in have actually been proven to me personally as things that are true for me. So far, I haven't been totally contradictory when it comes to this because I have tried to work out contradictions so that they're not contradictions anymore.

[Merrilyn]

If you're a non-theistic pagan that believes in astrology, tarot, or any one or more forms of divination, why? How do you reconcile the disbelief in one spiritual area with the belief in another?

I'll just answer this one, as it's relevant to my own beliefs (non-theistic).

It's not about reconciliation but about perception. Personally, I don't "believe" the Tarot or any other forms of "divination" relate in any way to the "divine". For me, they are merely focusing tools used for guidance and opening up pathways in the mind that I may not have seen as possibilities before.

I guess it all really depends on how much one's beliefs adhere to the concept of divinity. I do not believe in the divine, excepting the concept of divinity within the Self. So, there's no reconciliation to be made.

[patch]

Simply because these things are entirely independant to each other :)

[Lupabitch]

Apples and oranges. For example, a-theistic simply means "without gods", not "without spirit/nonphyical reality". You can be purely an animist or ancestor worshipper, believe wholeheartedly in spirits, but not in deities.

[Sethserpenthus]

That's why this is called "faith." It doesn't have to make sense to anybody except the person believing. I can believe in reincarnation without karma as such because that makes perfect sense to me. It doesn't have to make sense to anyone else.

[IvyWitch]

If you don't believe in karma but believe in reincarnation, why? How?

With this issue specifically, there's a very easy answer:
Karma is a concept that is specific to Buddhism and Hinduism. The modern Pagan concept of karma is an appropriation of these Indian concepts. Reincarnation is a belief that exists in many cultures outside of Indian ones.


I was talking with one of my friends (wtfmaing here, though she only signed up a few minutes ago, haha) about how I was missing the days when I considered myself pagan, and that I could kind of get back into polytheism but could definitely not go back into astrology because I didn't think astrology made enough sense. But, we talked more about it, and then I started realizing I don't know why I thought polytheism made more sense than astrology. Why would it? I've been agnostic on/off for most of my life, so I'm not sure entirely why I think polytheism makes more sense than monotheism...because it answers "the problem of evil" for me? But, then it feels like polytheism is covering its butt by responding with gods that aren't entirely good (like Loki or Mercury), which is something I accused astrology of doing (by being vague in descriptions and pointing to other planets or houses or the like for explanations).

Sorry if that's rambly or unclear. I can go into more detail if asked. I'm mainly just asking how some people--not exactly "pick and choose" what to believe because I don't think that's what's going on--believe in some spiritual/religious/&c. concepts and not others.

Also, I was having trouble searching for other threads/posts on this topic. I tried a few phrases and whatnot, but I didn't find any that really answered my question/s. If there are any that I didn't miss, feel free to link me? Aaaand, apologies if this has been discussed before.

You believe what you do because it makes sense to you. Why do the Sioux believe different than the Blackfoot? Why do the Christians believe different from the Muslims? Why is there a difference between Greek and Roman polytheism? It has to do with experiences, and your own personal opinions.

[Kaylara]

I don't think that any of the things you mentioned are mutually exclusive. They seem related because a lot of Pagans consider them to be part of their spirituality. But related doesn't mean dependent.

As for belief vs. disbelief, I think Terry Prachett said it best:
"Most witches don't believe in gods. They know them too well. It would be like believing in the postman."

[Zephyrstorm]

I love that quote Kaylara.

:)

I don't think that there's a rule somewhere that says that any of those things are dependent on each other.
I read cards, but am uncertain about astrology. I could go into how I think the cards work and all, but it would just amount to about what everyone else has said - It makes sense to me to believe what I believe in. I've encountered things that have proven what I believe to me.

If someone else has had experiences that divert from my own experiences, it could mean any number of things. ;) I could be insane, we could just have differing interpretations, we're at different places in our lives, etc.

[Toki Wartooth]

There is no reason to assume the Universe or deities use the same logic that we do.
This is just my belief, or lack thereof (as I'm horrible at being anything but agnostic), but I personally don't see any reason to assume there are deities or anything else higher than human understanding. Granted, I concede that the universe itself, so far as any eye can see, is beyond human comprehension; it appears that the universe is made up of all these things, often studied in astrophysics and the like, that we don't yet know exist or cannot yet understand. But, the fact that some human beings have been discovering things and have been able to understand at least some ways in which the universe works sometimes makes me skeptical that there is any other logic above human logic. ...But, I kind of sit on the fence with that.



But most people haven't had the time, experience and chance to form a truly unified theory, and certainly not one that is likely to hold up against all challenges...so we adopt various theories as we go along, modifying them as we learn and experience more.
This is true, but this is something that frustrates me. I tend to be a logical person, and I can often explain things to satisfy myself and others...but I've had trouble, which I guess is why I started this thread to begin with. I don't like being unable to express why I can believe in polytheism but can't believe in something like astrology or divination or a million other things. I think it doesn't make sense to believe in astrology, but I know others disagree; I just don't know how to articulate why I think this and have it make sense to others as well.



I don't think that there's a rule somewhere that says that any of those things are dependent on each other.
I read cards, but am uncertain about astrology. I could go into how I think the cards work and all, but it would just amount to about what everyone else has said - It makes sense to me to believe what I believe in. I've encountered things that have proven what I believe to me.
No, and I think some people are getting that implication because I wasn't sure how to word myself. I don't mean to imply that all these things, or other things, are so dependent on one another. I'm just interested in how people unify their beliefs or lack thereof, how one thing can make sense to them but another thing cannot. It's tied very closely with dependence and independence, but it wasn't exactly what I was looking for.

I myself don't think astrology works period; I see several issues with it. With tarot, I can accept how it can lead to introspection, focus someone's attention on things they might've missed, provide new ways of thinking, and several other things. I don't see that so much with astrology--it does not fulfill any purpose to me; I don't feel like I can do anything with it.

In regards to the existence (or lack thereof) of gods, I'm open to either argument because I don't think that can actually be proven or disproven, despite other people's experiences. For me, astrology has obvious lapses in logic, or holes, or contradictions, or whatever; same goes for tarot as a means to predict the future. But, there is nothing in the world that proves to me that (a) god(s) doesn't/don't exist.

...I have no idea if I made myself any clearer or if I made myself sound even more confusing.

[Greybird]

There is no reason that believing in one theory means that you are being illogical if you don't believe in every single other theory at the same time. Personally, I agree with you on astrology. There are too many inconsistencies. I do believe in some forms of divination, though - tarot, runes, and so on. This isn't a conflict. I believe that runes work; I believe that astrology does not. They aren't the same thing, so I don't see any real issue with accepting one and denying the other.

Reincarnation is a theory about what happens after death. Karma is one theory of why reincarnation works. They are seperate ideas related to a concept. There is no reason why you can't accept one and deny the other.

In point of fact, the idea of accepting any and all ideas without a reason for doing so strikes me as ignorant, even abhorrent. That is blind faith, mindless acceptance. I've seen it as the failing of way too many pagans. Just because one thing is true doesn't mean that every similar idea must be true as well. Heck, some of the 'spiritual concepts' as described might even be directly contradictory!

[Zephyrstorm]

Its hard to fit these kinds of subjects into a discussion sometimes, Mercedes. :) And even harder when you don't have visual cues and tonal cues and all that other good body communication going.

I think I get what you're going for - You are wondering about cognitive dissonance. When a person's beliefs seemingly contradict other beliefs that they hold? Am I right?

If I am then the answer is... some deal with it as it becomes clear to them, others accept it, and still others never face it. Personally, I see moments like that as a challenge - is there really a contradiction or is there something deeper there? Is the conflict one that can be resolved? How? Should I even try?
Sometimes its easier done than expected and sometimes it leads to an impass for a time.

ultimately, though, everyone handles those occasions differently.
Z