Homosexual Wiccans

[DracoJesi]

Wicca has allot of sexual references in it, unions between the Goddess and God, A female-male relationship, While Wicca is not anti-gay, I can only imagine that this might be awkward for those who are.

to those who are, does this affect your practice in anyway?

or does it not bother you at all?

[Willow Rosette]

I did a quick google and found this:

http://www.guidancetochangeyourlife.com/underlyingthemyths.html

http://www.gayheroes.com/alex.htm (not really a God)

http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=ukgb2&c=gay&id=3678 WitchVox covered it well.

[Aidron]

I'm gay, but not Wiccan. I will say I disagree with the feminine/masculine terminology. For one, it's too specific. I prefer Yin/Yang energy. While this can relate to masculine and feminine, it does so without gender references. I personally despise gender specifics though as I find they are too limiting and entail expectations that I refuse to live up to.

[Anwell]

My answer is plain and simple, it doesn't bother me at all :smile:

[RainInanna]

How do you reconcile the reproductive heterosexual themes that seem central to Wicca?

I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful, and I hope I don't offend anyone, I'm sorry if I'm just being ignorant and clumsy and it comes off as rude. I just know for me, part of the reason I'm not Wiccan is because of the focus on fertility and reproduction.

[Aidron]

How do you reconcile the reproductive heterosexual themes that seem central to Wicca?

I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful, and I hope I don't offend anyone, I'm sorry if I'm just being ignorant and clumsy and it comes off as rude. I just know for me, part of the reason I'm not Wiccan is because of the focus on fertility and reproduction.

I've always avoided heavy fertility ideologies. For one, I think reproduction is a sin - there are enough people in the world as it is and most of them suck.

[Merrilyn]

I've always avoided heavy fertility ideologies. For one, I think reproduction is a sin - there are enough people in the world as it is and most of them suck.

I tend to feel the same way.

[DracoJesi]

How do you reconcile the reproductive heterosexual themes that seem central to Wicca?

I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful, and I hope I don't offend anyone, I'm sorry if I'm just being ignorant and clumsy and it comes off as rude. I just know for me, part of the reason I'm not Wiccan is because of the focus on fertility and reproduction.

I don't see anything wrong with that, but I do notice that some overdue it, sometimes seeing the Goddess as more important than the God, when they are both equal, but somehow I doubt this what you were referring to?

I think that you see it simply as reproduction when many Wiccans see it as the gift of life.


I've always avoided heavy fertility ideologies. For one, I think reproduction is a sin - there are enough people in the world as it is and most of them suck.

I believe it is a gift, a symbol of life, I don't think sex is a sin, however thoughtless sex simply for pleasure and without any regard for the possibility of offspring I feel is a completely different indeed.

[BlueSage]

I don't think sex is a sin, however thoughtless sex simply for pleasure and without any regard for the possibility of offspring I feel is a completely different indeed.

kudos and karma! :)

[Aidron]

I believe it is a gift, a symbol of life, I don't think sex is a sin, however thoughtless sex simply for pleasure and without any regard for the possibility of offspring I feel is a completely different indeed.

I never once said anything about sex being a sin. If it is, commit me to fire and brimstone right now cause I refuse to give up my sinning ways.

Reproduction, however, yes. Children disgust me. I think parents are insane. There are too many humans on this planet as is.

And if you have sex without realizing that you may get knocked up/knock someone up then you're probably going to be the first ones to wind up with a kid. When you do, don't bring that filthy thing around me. :2G:

[RainInanna]

I think that you see it simply as reproduction when many Wiccans see it as the gift of life.

I'm referring to the cycles of pregnancy, ripening of the pregnancy, birth of the child, and reproductive themes in Wicca, ie. the cycle of the God impregnating the Goddess, her giving birth, and eventually getting pregnant again. I'm wondering how a gay Wiccan reconciles those Wiccan themes with being gay.

And before someone reminds me not all Wiccans who are hetero want to reproduce, I realize that, don't mean to imply otherwise, and that was one of my stumbling blocks when I faced years of infertility.

[DracoJesi]

kudos and karma! :)

thanks :)


I never once said anything about sex being a sin. If it is, commit me to fire and brimstone right now cause I refuse to give up my sinning ways.

Reproduction, however, yes. Children disgust me. I think parents are insane. There are too many humans on this planet as is.

And if you have sex without realizing that you may get knocked up/knock someone up then you're probably going to be the first ones to wind up with a kid. When you do, don't bring that filthy thing around me. :2G:

your right, I should have read more carefully, sex and reproduction are different, but they kind of go hand in hand here.....

and yes, you can take measures to prevent pregnancy, granted, but no method of prevention is 100% reliable (at least not that I know of, so many things come out all the time) so sex does contribute to reproduction, sex is simply a method of reproduction, they are related, and sex is part of the problem, no matter how careful you are.

secondly, if reproduction is a sin, then we, as a race are doomed, I'm not saying we couldn't be more carefull about it, but to say it's a sin, and to avoid it, would mean the end of our race, unless you consider cloning, which is actually another type of reproduction anyway...

and lastly, sure there are many parents out there that are downright awefull, but there are many good ones out there to.

[DracoJesi]

I'm referring to the cycles of pregnancy, ripening of the pregnancy, birth of the child, and reproductive themes in Wicca, ie. the cycle of the God impregnating the Goddess, her giving birth, and eventually getting pregnant again. I'm wondering how a gay Wiccan reconciles those Wiccan themes with being gay.

And before someone reminds me not all Wiccans who are hetero want to reproduce, I realize that, don't mean to imply otherwise, and that was one of my stumbling blocks when I faced years of infertility.

I understand what your saying now, and I don't know, I suppose you could just view one of them more than the other, like Dianic Wicca, just do the same with the emphasis on the God for gay men?

and actually, I think there is a type of Wicca that accommodates the homosexual lifestyle, however, I can't remember what it was called, and I have no knowleldge of how it works...

[Philosophia]

Of course sex contributes to reproduction (I kinda thought that was a given). But how is saying that "reproduction is a sin" making the race doomed? Maybe religions have been saying that for centuries and yet here we all are. :smile: I avoid reproduction, and sex for that matter, and I highly think that my doing so will suddenly cause the human race to be doomed.

Homosexuality and Wicca:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Wicca
http://www.pfpc.ca/info/wiccan/wicca/homo.html
http://www.thewellhead.org.uk/GP/gay1.htm

[DracoJesi]

Of course sex contributes to reproduction (I kinda thought that was a given). But how is saying that "reproduction is a sin" making the race doomed? Maybe religions have been saying that for centuries and yet here we all are. :smile: I avoid reproduction, and sex for that matter, and I highly think that my doing so will suddenly cause the human race to be doomed.

Homosexuality and Wicca:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Wicca
http://www.pfpc.ca/info/wiccan/wicca/homo.html
http://www.thewellhead.org.uk/GP/gay1.htm

well trying to avoid it for personall reasons, and saying it's a sin are two different things.

I'm not saying don't practice safe sex, but people try to avoid sins, and sure not every will agree, and it will probably still happened, but if the idea of it being a sin was universal, I'd say we'd be in trouble.

[Philosophia]

well trying to avoid it for personall reasons, and saying it's a sin are two different things.

I'm not saying don't practice safe sex, but people try to avoid sins, and sure not every will agree, and it will probably still happened, but if the idea of it being a sin was universal, I'd say we'd be in trouble.

I highly doubt it. Saying its a sin does not mean that it'll stop it. Many said that drinking alcohol and reading porn was a sin and yet they still exist.

[DracoJesi]

I highly doubt it. Saying its a sin does not mean that it'll stop it. Many said that drinking alcohol and reading porn was a sin and yet they still exist.

true, but I think thats mostly because not everyone agrees that it's a sin, and thats why it still happens.

[Lunacie]

I understand what your saying now, and I don't know, I suppose you could just view one of them more than the other, like Dianic Wicca, just do the same with the emphasis on the God for gay men?

and actually, I think there is a type of Wicca that accommodates the homosexual lifestyle, however, I can't remember what it was called, and I have no knowleldge of how it works...

I think the Feri Tradition and the Minoan Brotherhood both welcome gay men.

I myself feel that Wiccans can honor the reproductive and fertility aspects without saying that they are the only valid form of sexuality. And that Wicca is about more than honoring the overall aspect of fertility in nature - the reproduction of fruits and grains and food animals as well as human beings. Gardner did not say "go forth and multiply", he said in the eyes of the gods, "all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals."

I wouldn't expect any group to exclude me for being celibate for 10 years now than to exclude anyone for having sex with the same gender. What is done in private, whether rituals or just everyday living, is just that... private... and no one else's business. What is done in the context of a group practice is decided upon by the group.

[Dark_Tezcatlipoca]

For one, I think reproduction is a sin - there are enough people in the world as it is and most of them suck.

No all you gotta do is sacrifice...


I think the Feri Tradition and the Minoan Brotherhood both welcome gay men.

No pun intended, I hope?

[RainInanna]

I think the Feri Tradition and the Minoan Brotherhood both welcome gay men.

Before someone else jumps up and down, I'll just casually mention Feri is not Wicca. :veryweird

I know people wouldn't have said I wasn't Wiccan when I had fertility problems, but I also know when I did I had problems with reconciling Wiccan themes. So just wondering about those who may have also experienced that disconnect.

[DracoJesi]

I think the Feri Tradition and the Minoan Brotherhood both welcome gay men.

I myself feel that Wiccans can honor the reproductive and fertility aspects without saying that they are the only valid form of sexuality. And that Wicca is about more than honoring the overall aspect of fertility in nature - the reproduction of fruits and grains and food animals as well as human beings. Gardner did not say "go forth and multiply", he said in the eyes of the gods, "all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals."

I wouldn't expect any group to exclude me for being celibate for 10 years now than to exclude anyone for having sex with the same gender. What is done in private, whether rituals or just everyday living, is just that... private... and no one else's business. What is done in the context of a group practice is decided upon by the group.

I agree, and it's not like its simply male and female, the goddess is said to have male aspects just as the God has feminine Qualities, and their are quite a few war-like Goddesses out there.

and Minoan is the one I was thinking of.

I wasn't referring to weather they'd be accepted so much as how they feel about it.

one thing I'm stuggling to understang, is the rumor that Gardner was a homophobe, I just don't see it, after reading his stuff and getting a feel for it, I just don't see it, but then again, phobias are rarely logical, and having a phobia and saying it's wrong are two different things.

[DracoJesi]

Before someone else jumps up and down, I'll just casually mention Feri is not Wicca. :veryweird

I know people wouldn't have said I wasn't Wiccan when I had fertility problems, but I also know when I did I had problems with reconciling Wiccan themes. So just wondering about those who may have also experienced that disconnect.

I'm not all that familiar with Feri, isn't it like Gypsy related? or am I thinking of something else?

[RainInanna]

Feri is a form of ecstatic, rather than reproductive, witchcraft - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feri_Tradition

[DracoJesi]

Feri is a form of ecstatic, rather than reproductive, witchcraft - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feri_Tradition

ah, thanks for the link :)

[David19]

I'm gay, but not Wiccan. I will say I disagree with the feminine/masculine terminology. For one, it's too specific. I prefer Yin/Yang energy. While this can relate to masculine and feminine, it does so without gender references. I personally despise gender specifics though as I find they are too limiting and entail expectations that I refuse to live up to.

Like Aidron, I'm gay and not Wiccan either, but I don't like the masculine/feminine energy that a lot of Wiccans go on about. I've even heard some Wiccans say gay people are actually just female souls in male bodies or lesbians are male souls in male bodies or something like that, but to me, that's just kind of stating hetrosexuality is the norm, in both the spiritual and physical worlds/realms.

I can understand the idea of having a balance of energies within you, but I don't think it's a matter of "masculine" or "feminine", but maybe light and dark (a bit like Yin and Yang) or something like that.

I'm not sure how Wiccans, especially LGBT Wiccans, will handle the masculine/feminine polarity thing, or how other Wiccans, traditional and other, see LGBT people or whether they believe a masculine/feminine balance is essential to being Wiccan.

[Lupabitch]

Gardner was a product of his time--a fairly well-off white man, civil servant at the tail end of the Victorian era and long before the civil rights revolution.

Here's a thought--fertility does not always equal reproduction. Just because it did in earlier times doesn't mean that the definition can't change. I am quite happily childfree (though I'm not Wiccan) and part of a Nature-based religion. Fertility can be applied to any form of creativity--artwork and writing, for example, point to a fertile imagination.

And if anyone tells me that (heterosexual) sex is primarily for making babies, I'm gonna scream.

[David19]

How do you reconcile the reproductive heterosexual themes that seem central to Wicca?

I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful, and I hope I don't offend anyone, I'm sorry if I'm just being ignorant and clumsy and it comes off as rude. I just know for me, part of the reason I'm not Wiccan is because of the focus on fertility and reproduction.

For me, and again, I'm not Wiccan so it doesn't really affect me, I don't really feel any attraction to fertility traditions, I'm sure it's quite a powerful path and everything, but I don't really feel very attracted to it (that said, certain aspects I quite like).

The hetrosexual themes do seem dominant in Wicca, although I think for LGBT Wiccans, that can be overcome, as LGBT people are perfectly capable of being fertile, and having the energy in you that creates fertility, it might just take a bit of reworking or soul searching or something.

Not sure if that answered your question and I hope it made some sense :).

[Lunacie]

No all you gotta do is sacrifice...



No pun intended, I hope?

Nope, not a pun. It's a real tradition, do a google.

[DracoJesi]

Like Aidron, I'm gay and not Wiccan either, but I don't like the masculine/feminine energy that a lot of Wiccans go on about. I've even heard some Wiccans say gay people are actually just female souls in male bodies or lesbians are male souls in male bodies or something like that, but to me, that's just kind of stating hetrosexuality is the norm, in both the spiritual and physical worlds/realms.

I can understand the idea of having a balance of energies within you, but I don't think it's a matter of "masculine" or "feminine", but maybe light and dark (a bit like Yin and Yang) or something like that.

I'm not sure how Wiccans, especially LGBT Wiccans, will handle the masculine/feminine polarity thing, or how other Wiccans, traditional and other, see LGBT people or whether they believe a masculine/feminine balance is essential to being Wiccan.

personaly, I see it as a duality but not the only one their is, but one that is easy to understand, and has been around since the very first religions, I also see both of them representing certain elements, like how air and fire are considered male, and how earth and water are considered female, among other things, but I also thing they overlap and give balance, and it's a way of understanding the divine that has virtually been around has long as man, theres allot of symbolism, and to me, it does make since, however, it may not be the best model to go on considering the lifestyles of today, I think to understand it well enough to realize this, it's importnat to understand the history, or that which is known anyway, on how this view came to be.

you could use good vs evil, light vs dark, but thats so trivial and some see them as always being in conflict, while the concept of fertility and male-female union seems more universal, and more understandable its seen has two things working together to create life.

[Lunacie]

Before someone else jumps up and down, I'll just casually mention Feri is not Wicca. :veryweird

I know people wouldn't have said I wasn't Wiccan when I had fertility problems, but I also know when I did I had problems with reconciling Wiccan themes. So just wondering about those who may have also experienced that disconnect.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply any connection with Wicca, simply tossing out a couple of names to see if that's what the other poster was trying to remember.

[Lunacie]

Like Aidron, I'm gay and not Wiccan either, but I don't like the masculine/feminine energy that a lot of Wiccans go on about. I've even heard some Wiccans say gay people are actually just female souls in male bodies or lesbians are male souls in male bodies or something like that, but to me, that's just kind of stating hetrosexuality is the norm, in both the spiritual and physical worlds/realms.

I can understand the idea of having a balance of energies within you, but I don't think it's a matter of "masculine" or "feminine", but maybe light and dark (a bit like Yin and Yang) or something like that.

I'm not sure how Wiccans, especially LGBT Wiccans, will handle the masculine/feminine polarity thing, or how other Wiccans, traditional and other, see LGBT people or whether they believe a masculine/feminine balance is essential to being Wiccan.

I don't think souls have a gender - I think we may be incarnated as a woman in one lifetime and as a man in another lifetime. I don't know if the soul itself or the physicality but we all have both masculine and feminine hormones or genes within us. However it does take a certainl combination in order to procreate.

So-called Wiccans who place so much emphasis on the polarity or balance between the feminine and the masculine energies are missing the bigger picture as there are many polarities and many ways of achieving balance.

[Aidron]

Like Aidron, I'm gay and not Wiccan either, but I don't like the masculine/feminine energy that a lot of Wiccans go on about. I've even heard some Wiccans say gay people are actually just female souls in male bodies or lesbians are male souls in male bodies or something like that, but to me, that's just kind of stating hetrosexuality is the norm, in both the spiritual and physical worlds/realms.

I can understand the idea of having a balance of energies within you, but I don't think it's a matter of "masculine" or "feminine", but maybe light and dark (a bit like Yin and Yang) or something like that.

I'm not sure how Wiccans, especially LGBT Wiccans, will handle the masculine/feminine polarity thing, or how other Wiccans, traditional and other, see LGBT people or whether they believe a masculine/feminine balance is essential to being Wiccan.

Agreed.

When it comes to Yin/Yang I find it is much more universally applicable than feminine/masculine without implying limitations.

For example, the guy I'm seeing would definitely be more yang for many reasons. In appearance he's blonde, tanned, and has very bright blue yes. In personality he's extremely effervescent, very extroverted, more mechanically inclined, constantly jubilant for the most part, and definitely more 'projective' in his personna.

Me, I'm more dark in appearance. My hair is naturally darker, I have nearly jet black eyebrows, and steel-gray blue eyes. I am extremely introverted, more artistically inclined, very self-protective, typically calm, usually am more feminine out of the pair, and definitely more 'receptive' when it comes to my personna in that I don't have an overpowering vibe about me (I don't think).

Now on the other hand, since Yin/Yang works under the principle that each contains part of the other, he has some extremely feminine mannerisms that I do not. He's also the more gushy one of the two of us and more emotional.

So, Yin/Yang.

Furthermore, I respect reproduction as far as a concept in nature. Without it we would not exist (not just our species, but nothing in the world). However, in regards to my own species I think it's disgusting. Not the act, mind you, but the byproduct.

[Aidron]

personaly, I see it as a duality but not the only one their is, but one that is easy to understand, and has been around since the very first religions, I also see both of them representing certain elements, like how air and fire are considered male, and how earth and water are considered female, among other things, but I also thing they overlap and give balance, and it's a way of understanding the divine that has virtually been around has long as man, theres allot of symbolism, and to me, it does make since, however, it may not be the best model to go on considering the lifestyles of today, I think to understand it well enough to realize this, it's importnat to understand the history, or that which is known anyway, on how this view came to be.

Actually, there really is only one duality. Wicca simply uses to acknowledge with a feminine/masculine terminology rather than yin/yang. There are no multiple dualities, they all basically express the same idea at the end of the day.

And for the record, Air and Fire were traditionally considered Projective and Earth and Water Receptive before Neo-Paganism got a hold of them.

[David19]

Agreed.

When it comes to Yin/Yang I find it is much more universally applicable than feminine/masculine without implying limitations.

For example, the guy I'm seeing would definitely be more yang for many reasons. In appearance he's blonde, tanned, and has very bright blue yes. In personality he's extremely effervescent, very extroverted, more mechanically inclined, constantly jubilant for the most part, and definitely more 'projective' in his personna.

Me, I'm more dark in appearance. My hair is naturally darker, I have nearly jet black eyebrows, and steel-gray blue eyes. I am extremely introverted, more artistically inclined, very self-protective, typically calm, usually am more feminine out of the pair, and definitely more 'receptive' when it comes to my personna in that I don't have an overpowering vibe about me (I don't think).

Now on the other hand, since Yin/Yang works under the principle that each contains part of the other, he has some extremely feminine mannerisms that I do not. He's also the more gushy one of the two of us and more emotional.

So, Yin/Yang.

Furthermore, I respect reproduction as far as a concept in nature. Without it we would not exist (not just our species, but nothing in the world). However, in regards to my own species I think it's disgusting. Not the act, mind you, but the byproduct.

Definantly agreed with this, and like you, I think Ying/Yang are more universal, than the masculine/feminine polarity, 'cause while we all come from a man and a woman (usually anyway), not everything is about masculine and feminine.

Also, I don't really like the masculine/feminine terms 'cause what defines "feminine", what defines "masculine", etc?. Some people say being passive is more "feminine", but why is that?, same with agressiveness and "masculinity", to me, they are socially constructed terms.

[Aidron]

Definantly agreed with this, and like you, I think Ying/Yang are more universal, than the masculine/feminine polarity, 'cause while we all come from a man and a woman (usually anyway), not everything is about masculine and feminine.

Also, I don't really like the masculine/feminine terms 'cause what defines "feminine", what defines "masculine", etc?. Some people say being passive is more "feminine", but why is that?, same with agressiveness and "masculinity", to me, they are socially constructed terms.

They are socially constructed terms. Two examples that conflict:

The ideal Japanese woman is demure, quiet, and reserved.

Well what the hell about the Amazons that you find in the tales of the Hellenes? Demure, quiet, and reserved they were not.

[Ben Gruagach]

Lunacie covered pretty much everything I was going to say. Personally I am gay and I've never had a problem being gay and Wiccan.

"All acts of love and pleasure are My rituals" seems pretty inclusive to me. And fertility is a lot more than mere sexual reproduction so assuming that heterosexual expressions of fertility are the be-all and end-all miss an awful lot. Even if we just look at the natural world there are a lot of species, plant and animal, that reproduce through methods other than heterosexually. And as many other Wiccan authors have pointed out in various books, articles, etc. fertility also includes artistic creation as well as a lot of other aspects of existence.

And the idea that our souls have a specific gender seems awfully shortsighted -- as though our incarnations would be restricted to just one gender!

[DracoJesi]

Actually, there really is only one duality. Wicca simply uses to acknowledge with a feminine/masculine terminology rather than yin/yang. There are no multiple dualities, they all basically express the same idea at the end of the day.

And for the record, Air and Fire were traditionally considered Projective and Earth and Water Receptive before Neo-Paganism got a hold of them.

same picure at the end of the day yes, but they are diffent...

male is not simply evil or is female simply good, and vice versa, sure you don't need to view all such combinations, but they are there.

@Lunacie, I agree, allthough I do believe in feminine aspects, for example, I am a guy, but i do feel as if I have a strong feminine side, but I am straight, I think theres so much to go by, there are physical, mental and spiritual characteristics of both, theres so many things that can be influence not only by these energies but others as well, it's really hard to measure such a mixture.

[Aidron]

same picure at the end of the day yes, but they are diffent...

male is not simply evil or is female simply good, and vice versa, sure you don't need to view all such combinations, but they are there.

Actually, they are. They are both entirely subjective and carry with them limitations and expectations based on a society's ethics. If anything, they are more like than masculine/feminine and yin/yang. :eyebrow:

[DracoJesi]

Actually, they are. They are both entirely subjective and carry with them limitations and expectations based on a society's ethics. If anything, they are more like than masculine/feminine and yin/yang. :eyebrow:

perhaps I'm not following here, are you trying to say, that do to societies view, women (or man, whichever one) is evil?

because those dualities are viewed as the same.

I'm having a hard time joing the two, and seeing the similarity between

male = good = light = yin
female = evil = dark = yang

other than the fact that they all can be applied for the same purpose and are means for balance, is that what your saying, because I can see that....

[DracoJesi]

They are socially constructed terms. Two examples that conflict:

The ideal Japanese woman is demure, quiet, and reserved.

Well what the hell about the Amazons that you find in the tales of the Hellenes? Demure, quiet, and reserved they were not.

geez, I missed this post :/

I understand now,

although, personally I prefer masculine and feminine for the symbolism, and that it's easier to see how they work together as well as being opposites, something than can be hard figure with right/wrong and good/evil, at least for me.

demure?

[RainInanna]

Like Aidron, I'm gay and not Wiccan either, but I don't like the masculine/feminine energy that a lot of Wiccans go on about. I've even heard some Wiccans say gay people are actually just female souls in male bodies or lesbians are male souls in male bodies or something like that, but to me, that's just kind of stating hetrosexuality is the norm, in both the spiritual and physical worlds/realms.

Thanks David, I think your post and Aidron's in a way reflected my feelings. I don't feel like I'm just crazy :P

[Lunacie]

Lunacie covered pretty much everything I was going to say. Personally I am gay and I've never had a problem being gay and Wiccan.

"All acts of love and pleasure are My rituals" seems pretty inclusive to me. And fertility is a lot more than mere sexual reproduction so assuming that heterosexual expressions of fertility are the be-all and end-all miss an awful lot. Even if we just look at the natural world there are a lot of species, plant and animal, that reproduce through methods other than heterosexually. And as many other Wiccan authors have pointed out in various books, articles, etc. fertility also includes artistic creation as well as a lot of other aspects of existence.

And the idea that our souls have a specific gender seems awfully shortsighted -- as though our incarnations would be restricted to just one gender!

:lol: Beat you to it!

But you caught one thing I missed - the kids were home and things were getting a little loud around here which makes it hard for me to think - about how fertility can also mean creativity. In every ritual I've written for a fertility Sabbat I include the idea of being creative and bringing new things to life or to fruition. And I mean for them to apply to everyone in the group, not just to the women with wombs for rent.

Some people actually do seem to believe that our souls are limited to one gender and that we always reincarnate as that same gender. Where's the value in that? Where's the lesson? We may be more comfortable returning as the same gender each time, but I don't think it's some kind of karmic rule.

[DracoJesi]

:lol: Beat you to it!

But you caught one thing I missed - the kids were home and things were getting a little loud around here which makes it hard for me to think - about how fertility can also mean creativity. In every ritual I've written for a fertility Sabbat I include the idea of being creative and bringing new things to life or to fruition. And I mean for them to apply to everyone in the group, not just to the women with wombs for rent.

Some people actually do seem to believe that our souls are limited to one gender and that we always reincarnate as that same gender. Where's the value in that? Where's the lesson? We may be more comfortable returning as the same gender each time, but I don't think it's some kind of karmic rule.

I agree, and to be honest, I've always wondered how different my life would be if I was female.....just a thought

[Lunacie]

I used to wonder the same thing - only about being a male of course. Mostly around the time I was having PMS and cramps. :lol: Now that I'm a crone I'm much more comfortable with being who and what I am.

[sunny.spoone]

I'm not a Wiccan but a vast majority of the stuff I've read has had an overt Wiccan slant and I don't really understand why this is even a question. Is being gay somehow supposed to make heterosexual sex so repugnant thinking about dieties engaging in it and/or being reporductive in nature is offensive? Am I, like, not allowed to feel connection to it or something?

I don't get it.

[LostSheep]

Of course sex contributes to reproduction (I kinda thought that was a given). But how is saying that "reproduction is a sin" making the race doomed? Maybe religions have been saying that for centuries and yet here we all are. :smile:

Paradoxical, isn't it? Some religions insist that sex is A SIN , and we should all feel guilty and do penance whenever we think naughty thoughts, but at the same time, birth control is an even greater sin, and so people are encouraged to have ever larger families... except priests, of course.. it's all highly paradoxical.

[Lunacie]

I'm not a Wiccan but a vast majority of the stuff I've read has had an overt Wiccan slant and I don't really understand why this is even a question. Is being gay somehow supposed to make heterosexual sex so repugnant thinking about dieties engaging in it and/or being reporductive in nature is offensive? Am I, like, not allowed to feel connection to it or something?

I don't get it.

Doesn't make sense to me when there are so many stories of gods changing gender from season to season, or even being hermaphroditic.

[Ben Gruagach]

There are also stories of gods engaging in same-sex relationships so there's no reason why ritual enactments of fertility or union or sacred sex need to necessarily be heterosexual.

[Windsmith]

Here's a thought--fertility does not always equal reproduction. Just because it did in earlier times doesn't mean that the definition can't change. I am quite happily childfree (though I'm not Wiccan) and part of a Nature-based religion. Fertility can be applied to any form of creativity--artwork and writing, for example, point to a fertile imagination.


But you caught one thing I missed - the kids were home and things were getting a little loud around here which makes it hard for me to think - about how fertility can also mean creativity. In every ritual I've written for a fertility Sabbat I include the idea of being creative and bringing new things to life or to fruition. And I mean for them to apply to everyone in the group, not just to the women with wombs for rent.I don't think this is what either of you were referring to, but since we're talking about this, I'll say that, as a gay woman, this is one of the things that led me away from my early practice of Wicca.

I worked for a time with a women-only group, many of whom were lesbians. They spent a lot of time justifying how homosexuality fit within the male/female polarity framework. That was a big turn-off: these were strong, fairly intelligent women. They didn't feel a need for the male/female polarity framework in their personal lives; why fight so hard to wedge it into their religion?

Then they started telling me that many the union of the Goddess and the God created all kinds of fertility, not just reproductive fertility. Knowing I was a writer, they would say, "Your plays and essays are like your children. When you write, your male half and your female half combine to give birth to new works. That is the marriage of the Goddess and the God in your life."

Whoa, now; slow down the boat, Sparky. I still believed in deities at that time, so I was willing to accept that my writing was a gift from those deities. But I could not, and did not, accept that I could only write well because the little Goddess and the little God in my soul were gettin' it on. Yay, it's sooper-dooper that so many plants and animals reproduce through sexual means, but any religion that reduced every form of creation to nothing more than a metaphor for the Great Straight Boogie was no religion for me.

[RainInanna]

They spent a lot of time justifying how homosexuality fit within the male/female polarity framework. That was a big turn-off: these were strong, fairly intelligent women. They didn't feel a need for the male/female polarity framework in their personal lives; why fight so hard to wedge it into their religion?

There we go, that's kind of how I feel. It's great if people are able to comfortably meld it together, to me it was like trying to force myself into a theme by stretching and skewing it till I could squeeze into it like a shoe that was too small.

[jetpiston]

Observations (keeping in mind they are from the Traditional Gardnerian perspective)...

Since when is sin part of Wiccan beliefs? This is something I've never encountered before.

The Wiccan path, in my humble experience, views the duality of human beings as sacred. At a very basic level, the sacred union of the male and female brings about fruitfulness. In Wiccan practice, this is not limited to simple reproduction, but is symbolic of all creative acts, without limitation. It has nothing that I can see to do with sexual preferences (indeed, I personally know several extremely talented, passionate gay and lesbian Gardnerian High Priests and Priestesses). Who they love outside the Circle has no effect on how they do their work for the Gods.

-Jet Piston
Gard 3*

[Dawa Lhamo]

Here's a thought--fertility does not always equal reproduction. Just because it did in earlier times doesn't mean that the definition can't change. I am quite happily childfree (though I'm not Wiccan) and part of a Nature-based religion. Fertility can be applied to any form of creativity--artwork and writing, for example, point to a fertile imagination.Exactly!

A powerful and almost universal *symbol* of fertility may be sexual reproduction, but let's not confuse the symbol with the thing. Wicca is a fertility religion. It's not just a sex cult. (The finger that points to the moon is there to show you where the moon is; the finger is not the ultimate object of fascination itself.)

And furthermore:

A gay man, for example, might not personally relate to the idea of himself having intercourse with a female to produce offspring, but I bet you that his parents did just that, that he knows people who do, that by merely being a human, a species whose reproduction is biologically sexual, his very existence is tied in with sexual reproduction, and as such, sexual reproduction may just be a powerful symbol of fertility for him, too.

Also:

I personally feel that, inasmuch as we can be said to have souls (which may be not at all, depending upon how you define existence), they don't have gender. I feel that the vast range of possible sexuality is mostly due to biology (variations (http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0029927.html) - note I didn't say genetics alone or hormones alone or whatever else alone... we are more complex than flower color in pea plants).

[Lupabitch]

As for the argument that the male/female duality is natural--most plants and a decent number of animals (including many invertebrates) are ambisexual, rather than relying on sexual dichotomy. In fact, ambisexual beings, by number, outnumber those of a sexual dichotomy. So by sheer numbers, nature is ambisexual!

[DracoJesi]

As for the argument that the male/female duality is natural--most plants and a decent number of animals (including many invertebrates) are ambisexual, rather than relying on sexual dichotomy. In fact, ambisexual beings, by number, outnumber those of a sexual dichotomy. So by sheer numbers, nature is ambisexual!

ambisexual?

don't you mean asexual?

or am I confused here...

[Aidron]

ambisexual?

don't you mean asexual?

or am I confused here...

This (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ambisexual) should help alleviate your confusion.

One of the most well-known examples of ambisexuality (go away red line, it's a real word!) is "Jurassic Park" in which it is made clear that the reason the dinosaurs are reproducing in the wild is because of the frog DNA used to fill in the gaps of the dinosaur DNA, with said frogs being able to spontaneously switch from one gender to another (in the movie's case from female to male) when the imbalance between the sexes is putting the risk of the entire species at risk. In this example you could say the frogs were ambisexual (unisex) in a way.

I, however, have no idea if such frogs exist as I never bothered to look into it. It wouldn't surprise me though if there were in fact numerous species capable of this; it's an evolutionary fail-safe marvel.

Furthermore, from a scientific perspective 'homo' usually relates to same or normal, while 'hetero' relates to the strange or unusual. Funny how that works out given the mindset of most society's regarding homosexuality and heterosexuality. Actually, it's probably not all that funny. Heterosexuality outside of reproduction is a relatively new experience for mankind I am sure (i.e. it's more mainstream now than it ever has been before).

[DracoJesi]

This (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ambisexual) should help alleviate your confusion.

One of the most well-known examples of ambisexuality (go away red line, it's a real word!) is "Jurassic Park" in which it is made clear that the reason the dinosaurs are reproducing in the wild is because of the frog DNA used to fill in the gaps of the dinosaur DNA, with said frogs being able to spontaneously switch from one gender to another (in the movie's case from female to male) when the imbalance between the sexes is putting the risk of the entire species at risk. In this example you could say the frogs were ambisexual (unisex) in a way.

I, however, have no idea if such frogs exist as I never bothered to look into it. It wouldn't surprise me though if there were in fact numerous species capable of this; it's an evolutionary fail-safe marvel.

Furthermore, from a scientific perspective 'homo' usually relates to same or normal, while 'hetero' relates to the strange or unusual. Funny how that works out given the mindset of most society's regarding homosexuality and heterosexuality. Actually, it's probably not all that funny. Heterosexuality outside of reproduction is a relatively new experience for mankind I am sure (i.e. it's more mainstream now than it ever has been before).

oh I've heard of that, but I think it was in relation to a fish xd..

what if it changes but then stays the same instead of changing back, is that considered the same term?

and what if the creature/being/animal is both all the time, isn't that a hermaphrodite, I think?

and yes, that red line is evil.... :lol:

[Aidron]

oh I've heard of that, but I think it was in relation to a fish xd..

Never heard of this.


what if it changes but then stays the same instead of changing back, is that considered the same term?

In cases such as the frog (which may not even be a reality, it was just an example I'm using) this would not happen. It retains the ability to alter its gender on a whim because that's how it is designed as per evolution's decree since if they all switched gender they'd be in the same predicament as before. It's like the ability mammal's possess to regulate our own body temperature; no matter how cold or hot we get, we still retain it. It's innate.


and what if the creature/being/animal is both all the time, isn't that a hermaphrodite, I think?

Yes, that would be a hermaphrodite. A hermaphrodite possesses both (or did possess both, many who are born this way in our own species either elect to or are forced into surgery to lock them into one gender) female and male genitalia.

Ambisexual has the prefix of 'ambi' meaning both, thus relating to bisexuality or the ability to work be applicable in both genders. Like I tried (may have failed) to mention earlier, the frog example may not be the best one for ambisexuality (stupid red line!). The best example would be unisex clothing or a unisex bathroom as they are capable of being used by both genders.


and yes, that red line is evil.... :lol:

Curse it!

[Lupabitch]

I think the word I was actually looking for in a wider sense was hermaphroditic (permanently male and female)--I hadn't realized ambisexual specifically referred to those that spontaneously change!

[Aidron]

I think the word I was actually looking for in a wider sense was hermaphroditic (permanently male and female)--I hadn't realized ambisexual specifically referred to those that spontaneously change!

Well... it doesn't, not precisely anyway. Since it is synonymous with unisex I applied it whimsically. Hermaphrodite didn't seem to quite fit either since in the example of the frogs they were not both female and male, merely could switch between the sexes. :hrmm:

Either way, I think I've enriched this thread with confusion enough for awhile. :2G:

[Dark_Tezcatlipoca]

According to dictionary.com abisexual means exactly the same thing as bisexual when applied to a person but for a thing, unisex.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ambisexual


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway I happen to know a lesbian woman im quite acquainted with. She was saying this story about a friend of hers. To put it bluntly, a lesbian at first, then changed into a man, got a penis, then she changed into a gay guy.

What would that be called?

[Aidron]

According to dictionary.com abisexual means exactly the same thing as bisexual when applied to a person but for a thing, unisex.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ambisexual


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway I happen to know a lesbian woman im quite acquainted with. She was saying this story about a friend of hers. To put it bluntly, a lesbian at first, then changed into a man, got a penis, then she changed into a gay guy.

What would that be called?

A gay man. She was a woman, is now a man (the gender is switched, she can't be both without being a hermaphrodite and unless she has retained her female genitalia - which I sincerely doubt - she is now a man) and just happens to like men.

And since animals are usually referred to as 'things' within the English language, I guess that means the frogs were ambisexual.

(I swear I'm giving the frog thing a rest, folks. Honest!)

[jetpiston]

As for the argument that the male/female duality is natural--most plants and a decent number of animals (including many invertebrates) are ambisexual, rather than relying on sexual dichotomy.
The fact that many plants and animals are ambisexual does nothing to change the fact that the male/female duality is natural. It is.


In fact, ambisexual beings, by number, outnumber those of a sexual dichotomy. So by sheer numbers, nature is ambisexual!So? How many of these animals are magical practitioners? Witches? Priests? Shamans? To date, as far as I know, the only animal to do these things is the human, for whom the male/female duality is natural. That some individuals fall outside the majority label 'heterosexual' cannot negate the simple, biological fact that when a man and a woman fark it can create life.

Now, this in no way negates other types of magical or spiritual paths. Some people are more comfortable doing something else, and that is a good thing. But on the other hand, there is nothing keeping a homosexual person from tapping into this primal energy source but their preference. It is there for anyone to use and celebrate.

Jet Piston
3* Gard

[DracoJesi]

The fact that many plants and animals are ambisexual does nothing to change the fact that the male/female duality is natural. It is.

So? How many of these animals are magical practitioners? Witches? Priests? Shamans? To date, as far as I know, the only animal to do these things is the human, for whom the male/female duality is natural. That some individuals fall outside the majority label 'heterosexual' cannot negate the simple, biological fact that when a man and a woman fark it can create life.

Now, this in no way negates other types of magical or spiritual paths. Some people are more comfortable doing something else, and that is a good thing. But on the other hand, there is nothing keeping a homosexual person from tapping into this primal energy source but their preference. It is there for anyone to use and celebrate.

Jet Piston
3* Gard

I dunno, I'm teaching my cat to cast a circle (jk) :lol:

but i agree that that just because the duality is of male-female union, doesn't mean that those don't physically engage in such a union can't enjoy the symbolism and the gift of life....

and as for being ambisexual, and aesexual, both sides exist, although not always at the same time (ambisexual)

or do they, flowers that are considered asexual have both male and femal parts.... but what about an amomeaba(sp) or types of budding, there isn't any sexual distinction at all there is there?

but even considering this, I do think thats its more about symbolism here and how we interact with the divine, sure being human, we might be a little biased, but if it helps us connect, then this isn't a bad thing.

I believe thats one of the reasons the Divine was separated into the Goddess and God, so that we can grasped it better.

you could worship two Gods or two Goddess if you want, but I wouldn't consider that Wicca, then again, I have trouble thinking how that would work, they wouldn't be different, or would they?

and which one would get the traits often associated with the missing gender?

[Lunacie]

Hm... do the gods actually have sex, or are we simply making them seem more like us so that we can feel like gods ourselves?

[DracoJesi]

Hm... do the gods actually have sex, or are we simply making them seem more like us so that we can feel like gods ourselves?

apparently you've never heard of Heracles....

man was Hera furious!.......

[Lunacie]

Oh I've heard or read many of the stories, but were there any witnesses?

Are the stories real events or are they based on our own human desires?

Are the gods like us, and are we like the gods?

[DracoJesi]

Oh I've heard or read many of the stories, but were there any witnesses?

Are the stories real events or are they based on our own human desires?

Are the gods like us, and are we like the gods?

well, I'd tink the Gods would make sure they had privacy :rotfl:

and more so, if there were, even then who would believe them? and if they did believe them, we wouldn't know unless it was written down, like the stories, and then, there just stories, because without a time machine, we wouldn't know...

but there have been people who wrote about seeing Heracles and what not, but again which are stories and which are more?

[Lunacie]

I'm not having a good morning and can't think of any way to express this thought more clearly, so I'll just ask it again and see if anyone else wants to add anything?


Hm... do the gods actually have sex, or are we simply making them seem more like us so that we can feel like gods ourselves?

[jetpiston]

Are the gods like us, and are we like the gods?

Yes.

[Ben Gruagach]

I was thinking that at least some of the core of this question revolves around the Great Rite and how it fits into Wicca. To keep things a bit clearer I've set up this thread (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=3431231) to discuss specifically what the Great Rite's meaning and symbolism might be within Wicca.

[Lunacie]

Are the gods like us, and are we like the gods?


Yes.

If I may ask, what are you basing that response on?

[RainInanna]

Question from the vaguely eclectic with some Wiccan tendencies and admittely loose ones - from what mythology did the bulk of the theme for the cycling of seasons come? ie. how we connect the cycle of seasons to the lives of the gods, to inspire the sabbats? Celtic, no? Hetero theme, yes? Of course we all realize some gods had partners of the same gender at times, but are they ones that compose the mythology of the sabbats? One reason I don't call myself Wiccan (obviously) is because of the importance of this mythology. To me at least, it's a major part of Wicca, tying into the worship of the god and goddess and a lot of the drama and themes (ie. ostara's reflection of new life just starting to show up, beltaine's warm fertile celebrations, the heat and prosperity of the summer solstice, etc).

[David19]

Are the stories real events or are they based on our own human desires?

Are the gods like us, and are we like the gods?


Yes.

I'm going to agree with jetpiston, and say yes, I think the Gods are like us and we're like them, in some ways anyway. Think of the Hermetic saying "As Above, So Below".

IMO, the Gods have similar personalities, likes, dislikes, etc to us (and the various myths and beliefs, history, etc about the Gods seem to confirm this too).

I do think of the stories about the Gods as being real, although I don't see them as literal events (e.g. I don't think Inanna was an historical person who descended to Kur (the underworld), etc). I see the various myths as maybe taking part on another plane/realm of existence, or if they take part on this realm, then it happens in some kind of mysterious way (e.g. like some of the Greek Gods were said to take part in the battle of Troy, but I think it was said they aided their followers from their own plane of existence or were invisible, like, if I'm not mistaken, Athene was said to help her followers by becoming invisible and taking out their enemies, etc).

I think it was either Jung or Joseph Campbell who said dreams are private myths, and myths are public dreams, and I kind of agree, although I apply more of a transcentral slant to it than just psychology, like maybe the myths took place on some dream plane which the human soul witnessed in their dreams (in folklore, dreams are more than just symbols from your subconscious, but can be a place where you can meet a host of supernatural beings, from Gods, to demons, etc).

So, to answer your question, I think the stories are real, but not historical events that happened on this realm.

I have no idea if that made any sense, but hopefully, you can something out of it :).

[David19]

The fact that many plants and animals are ambisexual does nothing to change the fact that the male/female duality is natural. It is.

So? How many of these animals are magical practitioners? Witches? Priests? Shamans? To date, as far as I know, the only animal to do these things is the human, for whom the male/female duality is natural. That some individuals fall outside the majority label 'heterosexual' cannot negate the simple, biological fact that when a man and a woman fark it can create life.

Now, this in no way negates other types of magical or spiritual paths. Some people are more comfortable doing something else, and that is a good thing. But on the other hand, there is nothing keeping a homosexual person from tapping into this primal energy source but their preference. It is there for anyone to use and celebrate.

Jet Piston
3* Gard

While I agree that magic utilising the energies of fertility and male/female polarity's can be powerful, I don't think that it is the only polarity, and I don't think that it's the only way to work magic. I also don't think that everything in the universe revoles around a male/female polarity or that gay guys, like me, are gay 'cause they've got "more female energy" (I've actually heard some Wiccan say that), etc.

[Ben Gruagach]

Question from the vaguely eclectic with some Wiccan tendencies and admittely loose ones - from what mythology did the bulk of the theme for the cycling of seasons come? ie. how we connect the cycle of seasons to the lives of the gods, to inspire the sabbats? Celtic, no? Hetero theme, yes? Of course we all realize some gods had partners of the same gender at times, but are they ones that compose the mythology of the sabbats? One reason I don't call myself Wiccan (obviously) is because of the importance of this mythology. To me at least, it's a major part of Wicca, tying into the worship of the god and goddess and a lot of the drama and themes (ie. ostara's reflection of new life just starting to show up, beltaine's warm fertile celebrations, the heat and prosperity of the summer solstice, etc).

When Gardner's first coven was practicing back in the 1950s they apparently didn't celebrate 8 sabbats but fewer. Someone suggested they add in the others to bring it up to 8 partly because they enjoyed the parties and also because it seemed to make sense in a more-balanced sort of annual ritual cycle. (I believe I read about that in Doreen Valiente's "The Rebirth of Witchcraft" and in Fred Lamond's "Fifty Years of Wicca.")

The myths, deities, etc. that were then worked out were really popped into place drawing on seasonal stuff from a variety of sources although I think they did try to stick to mostly Celtic ones. As a result the sabbat cycles are a bit of a hodge-podge.

Raven Grimassi has done a good job of tying the sabbats, the myth and symbolism together into a workable whole in his books, particularly in "Witchcraft: A Mystery Religion" and his brand-new one, "Crafting Wiccan Traditions." Mike Nichols' "The Witches' Sabbats" also does an excellent job of examining mythological sources for the sabbats. And of course Janet and Stewart Farrar's "A Witches' Bible" covers the sabbats pretty well.

Some of the big themes in the sabbats involve interaction between two gods, often depicted as a foliate god and a horned/beast god. If we look back through mythological history to one of the likely precursors of this we find the story of Gilgamesh and Enkidu. The stories about them describe them as being in conflict, but there are also strong themes of them coming together as close friends (and perhaps even lovers!) which could easily be worked into Wiccan sabbat rituals by enterprising practitioners who were so inclined.

There is potentially a lot more to the sabbat myths and symbolism than merely heterosexual intercourse and conception for those who seek it.

[jetpiston]

If I may ask, what are you basing that response on?
Personal experience and observation.

[LostSheep]

Some of the big themes in the sabbats involve interaction between two gods, often depicted as a foliate god and a horned/beast god. If we look back through mythological history to one of the likely precursors of this we find the story of Gilgamesh and Enkidu. The stories about them describe them as being in conflict, but there are also strong themes of them coming together as close friends (and perhaps even lovers!) which could easily be worked into Wiccan sabbat rituals by enterprising practitioners who were so inclined.

There is potentially a lot more to the sabbat myths and symbolism than merely heterosexual intercourse and conception for those who seek it.

I found a copy of that fairly recently. I did think there were distinct echoes of Achilles and Patroclus, particularly when (*spoiler alert*) Enkidu dies.

[jetpiston]

While I agree that magic utilising the energies of fertility and male/female polarity's can be powerful, I don't think that it is the only polarity, and I don't think that it's the only way to work magic.
It's not. It's just the way Wicca started out. It's still the way it is done in the 'Traditional' traditions like Gardnerianism.


I also don't think that everything in the universe revoles around a male/female polarity...Everything in the universe doesn't, but we're not exactly talking about the whole universe. We're talking about Wicca, which started out as a specific practice to honor two specific Gods who do revolve around a male/female polarity.


...or that gay guys, like me, are gay 'cause they've got "more female energy" (I've actually heard some Wiccan say that), etc.That's a new one on me! I've felt energy from a gay man that was 'feminine', but I've also felt energy from a gay man that was most definitely, without any doubt, very 'masculine'. I don't see that as making someone gay or not.

Jet Piston
3* Gard

[Lunacie]

Personal experience and observation.

Which of course means it's valid to you, but not so much to anyone else. UPG as it's called.

I seem to be in a questioning phase of my life at the moment.

[RainInanna]

Raven Grimassi has done a good job of tying the sabbats, the myth and symbolism together into a workable whole in his books, particularly in "Witchcraft: A Mystery Religion" and his brand-new one, "Crafting Wiccan Traditions." Mike Nichols' "The Witches' Sabbats" also does an excellent job of examining mythological sources for the sabbats. And of course Janet and Stewart Farrar's "A Witches' Bible" covers the sabbats pretty well.

Thank you for that post, that's more along the lines of what I was trying to find (sorry, I had a hard time articulating and I don't think it was clear).

I can admit my reservations were not actually related to hetero/homo but how themes were so literally tied to procreation. I had more of an "ick I can't deal with that theme, run away" feeling when having fertility problems.

Also I'm going to quote the bit above in the other thread about sabbats, since you've answered a question I had there over here :)

[Ben Gruagach]

I seem to be in a questioning phase of my life at the moment.

Personally, I'll stop asking questions when I'm dead. (And even then I might not stop!)

[Ben Gruagach]

I found a copy of that fairly recently. I did think there were distinct echoes of Achilles and Patroclus, particularly when (*spoiler alert*) Enkidu dies.

Keeping in mind that the Gilgamesh stories were written down as far back as 2150-2000 BCE, and Achilles' story around 700BCE, there was definitely plenty of time for the myths and themes to spread out of Mesopotamia.

And Enkidu's death is not forever -- he is a vegetation god after all!

[jetpiston]

Which of course means it's valid to you, but not so much to anyone else. UPG as it's called.
The experience part, yes, the observation part I'm not so sure about.


I seem to be in a questioning phase of my life at the moment.That's a good phase to be in. Much better than the "I already know it all" phase many people seem to be perpetually stuck in.

Jet Piston
3* Gard

[David19]

Keeping in mind that the Gilgamesh stories were written down as far back as 2150-2000 BCE, and Achilles' story around 700BCE, there was definitely plenty of time for the myths and themes to spread out of Mesopotamia.

And Enkidu's death is not forever -- he is a vegetation god after all!

I agree that the Gilgamesh myths are older 'cause Sumer is the oldest civilization and religion we know anything about, but I don't think Enkidu is a vegetation god, maybe you're confusing him with Dumuzi, lover of Inanna?.

This translation of the myth where Gilgamesh meets the dead Enkidu again is a good one (http://templeofsumer.org/myth14.html). So, I don't think Enkidu is a god at all, he was created by the Gods, but that doesn't make him one, at least from what I've read and my own opinion.

That's not to say, Gilgamesh and Enkidu can't be used in a homosexual celebration of the Wiccan Sabbats.

Not only that, but I'm sure, with a bit of research and work, you could also find a way to include Antinous, the deified lover of Hadrian (http://ladyhedgehog.hedgie.com/antinous.html) (also this site (http://www.antinopolis.org/)) has good info(probably not with Gilgamesh and Enkidu, though).


Enkidu, from my reading of the myths, was created by the Gods to challenge Gilgamesh, but eventually they became companions and fought monsters together and were lovers too, but he was still killed (I believe, Inanna was, indirectly, responsible for that), and that led to Gilgamesh summoning his spirit up from Kur (the underworld), where Enkidu let him know what the afterlife was like

[Ben Gruagach]

I agree that the Gilgamesh myths are older 'cause Sumer is the oldest civilization and religion we know anything about, but I don't think Enkidu is a vegetation god, maybe you're confusing him with Dumuzi, lover of Inanna?.

You're right. I knew that Enkidu was a wild hairy man who lived in the forest and was at one with nature so I wrongly assumed he was likely also a vegetation spirit or god. And I knew he died and there was something in the story about Gilgamesh journeying to the underworld to get him back (like the descent of Inanna in a way) so I thought perhaps he was also a resurrected deity which would reinforce the vegetation theme as it's vegetation gods who are usually resurrected.

However, it seems that Enkidu is more like Osiris in that once he dies he stays in the realm of the dead rather than coming back. (This sort of supports the idea that Enkidu might be a vegetation deity though as Osiris is, especially in his "green" role as the lord of the underworld and things in the Earth.)

When he was alive though Enkidu was connected much more to the animals than he was to the plants. So he's probably closer to Cernunnos or the lord of the beasts than to being a vegetation god.

I don't think it matters much though how a particular mythological being had their origin -- they can still be gods or goddesses, even if they were created by other gods. Kali for instance was specifically created by other gods in Hindu myth, and most of the Egyptian gods were created by Nut and the earth god, who in turn were created by Ptah. And humans in various cultures were deified as well, such as Gilgamesh himself, Imhotep in Egypt, Heracles, and of course the Roman emperors and the Egyptian pharaohs. So I don't have a problem considering Enkidu to be some sort of god.

[David19]

You're right. I knew that Enkidu was a wild hairy man who lived in the forest and was at one with nature so I wrongly assumed he was likely also a vegetation spirit or god. And I knew he died and there was something in the story about Gilgamesh journeying to the underworld to get him back (like the descent of Inanna in a way) so I thought perhaps he was also a resurrected deity which would reinforce the vegetation theme as it's vegetation gods who are usually resurrected.

However, it seems that Enkidu is more like Osiris in that once he dies he stays in the realm of the dead rather than coming back. (This sort of supports the idea that Enkidu might be a vegetation deity though as Osiris is, especially in his "green" role as the lord of the underworld and things in the Earth.)

When he was alive though Enkidu was connected much more to the animals than he was to the plants. So he's probably closer to Cernunnos or the lord of the beasts than to being a vegetation god.

That's true, although I'd add that Enkidu was closer to the wild at first, but was made civilized by a priestess/prositute (I think of Inanna's temple, I may be wrong), and was therefore brought out of the wild, and into civilized life.


I don't think it matters much though how a particular mythological being had their origin -- they can still be gods or goddesses, even if they were created by other gods. Kali for instance was specifically created by other gods in Hindu myth, and most of the Egyptian gods were created by Nut and the earth god, who in turn were created by Ptah. And humans in various cultures were deified as well, such as Gilgamesh himself, Imhotep in Egypt, Heracles, and of course the Roman emperors and the Egyptian pharaohs. So I don't have a problem considering Enkidu to be some sort of god.

That I agree with you, and also, take Lilith, she didn't start out as a Goddess, in fact the prototype for her, the Lilitu, were always demons in Sumer (here's something interesting, according to the Sumerian kinglist, Gilgamesh's father was a Lillu demon (the male version of the Lilitu demons), they were a bit like incubus's), but that doesn't stop people seeing her as a Goddess (I don't have a problem with that, but I don't like it when people will say she started out as a Goddess but was only "demonized" by the patriarchy or by "those big bad Jews", etc. I also don't like when people attempt to make her all "nice and fluffy" when truth is, she'd probably help herself to a snack involving your child if you called upon her, but I've gotten too OT now).

Also, think of the entities from Lovecraft's work, like Cthulthu and the other Gods and entities. Many people work and get results with them, despite Lovecraft being an atheist and his work being fiction.

I personally believe Gods and other entities can make contact with this realm in many ways (but, again, I've kind of gone OT, so I'll shup up now and maybe save it for another post).

[Weyotch]

My opinion...

I'm more Goddess-based than anything... I don't know why, but it doesn't seem that the God is going to come around me anytime soon... Maybe the gayness scurred Him...

Actually the feminine/masculine polarity doesn't bother me a bit.

I actually enjoy the whole polarity thing, cuz if it hadn't been for a woman and man, none of us would be here... now as for overpopulation, yes it needs to get under control. As for kids, LOVE them!

So... I'm a weird Witch... who cares!

[Jeremy Westenn]

Not a Wiccan, not anymore strangely(amazing how your beliefs evolve suddenly). I'm well on my path to being a follower of Hecate and I'll say as a Pagan and as a person who previously identified as a Wiccan it didn't bother me at all. I'd say Aidron was right in describing that masculine and feminine energies can also be equated to ying and yang. Ultimately, it's our interpretation of how the Universe works, things are much, much more complicated then we can either understand or tend to give credit to.

[Jeremy Westenn]

Doesn't bother me at all. When you strip away the body were just energy, a bit different then the next, but in the end souls are souls.

Really though, the Gods could care less about who you bork. Most importantly as a homosexual I know I'm not a pervert, I have no mental issues, I'm not sick and demented, I'm not after children(Gags), and I'm a very sane normal person. Who happens to like dick with ass. <_<

Doesn't effect my practice at all.

- Jeremy

[Jeremy Westenn]

I agree that the Gilgamesh myths are older 'cause Sumer is the oldest civilization and religion we know anything about, but I don't think Enkidu is a vegetation god, maybe you're confusing him with Dumuzi, lover of Inanna?.

This translation of the myth where Gilgamesh meets the dead Enkidu again is a good one (http://templeofsumer.org/myth14.html). So, I don't think Enkidu is a god at all, he was created by the Gods, but that doesn't make him one, at least from what I've read and my own opinion.

That's not to say, Gilgamesh and Enkidu can't be used in a homosexual celebration of the Wiccan Sabbats.

Not only that, but I'm sure, with a bit of research and work, you could also find a way to include Antinous, the deified lover of Hadrian (http://ladyhedgehog.hedgie.com/antinous.html) (also this site (http://www.antinopolis.org/)) has good info(probably not with Gilgamesh and Enkidu, though).


Enkidu, from my reading of the myths, was created by the Gods to challenge Gilgamesh, but eventually they became companions and fought monsters together and were lovers too, but he was still killed (I believe, Inanna was, indirectly, responsible for that), and that led to Gilgamesh summoning his spirit up from Kur (the underworld), where Enkidu let him know what the afterlife was like

I have to kind of balk here at the notion that you just take other Gods and Goddess's and mythological persons and throw them into a ritual. If you don't have a relationship with Hecate, Inanna, Astarte, Osiris, Apollo, etc. etc. it's not appropriate to just start invoking them and throwing them into rituals and spells whenever it fits you. They have their own specific pantheons and religious following. Some of these Gods speak to you personally I know that.

This is just a pet peeve of mine in the Pagan/Wiccan/Polytheistic community.

[DracoJesi]

Personally, I'll stop asking questions when I'm dead. (And even then I might not stop!)

hey, thats a good thing, if you don't ask questions, you won't get answers :thumbsup:

I don't think I'd ever want to stop....

[David19]

I have to kind of balk here at the notion that you just take other Gods and Goddess's and mythological persons and throw them into a ritual. If you don't have a relationship with Hecate, Inanna, Astarte, Osiris, Apollo, etc. etc. it's not appropriate to just start invoking them and throwing them into rituals and spells whenever it fits you. They have their own specific pantheons and religious following. Some of these Gods speak to you personally I know that.

This is just a pet peeve of mine in the Pagan/Wiccan/Polytheistic community.

I know you're not a member here anymore, but I just wanted to respond to your post, but, that's what I feel too, I was just mentioning something about Enkidu, and saying he wasn't a vegetation God. If you don't feel called by a God, or Gods, or don't have a relationship with them already, you shouldn't just invoke them, or summon them, etc, you could start worshiping them, praying to them, etc, but, you shouldn't just start invoking them, summoning them, etc, and, you shouldn't just ask them for things, if you don't know them, don't have a relationship with them, etc (I don't do that with Ereshkigal, or other Sumerian Gods, even though, I worship them, I'm not going to do anything like that yet, as I want to worship and serve them properly, and have an proper altar for Ereshkigal, and some other Sumerian Gods (and my ancestors), and, then, I might ask for help, with something that I really need help with).

You definitely need to have a relationship with them, etc, before you invoke them, summon them, etc.

[David19]

hey, thats a good thing, if you don't ask questions, you won't get answers :thumbsup:

I don't think I'd ever want to stop....

Very true, and you shouldn't :).