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Wyrdsister
July 18th, 2002, 08:42 PM
Hello fellow MWers! :D

I was all excited to tell pagan folks I know that a new pagan online directory opening up: www.wicca.ws Being excited, I submitted a link for a Yahoo!group I help moderate, Canadian_Goddess, under their "Online Groups" category. It is a group for Canadian Goddess worshipping women. This is the response I received from the Editor of Wicca.WS

"
Sorry but I'm a male and kind of offended by the description of your forum when I visited it, i.e. "If you are male, kindly look for
another list." is blatently sexist IMHO and "Womyn's" is spelt "Women's" - separation of the sexes creates problems and
promotes unbalance, true pagan paths are not like that and this can only lead to decline in society and individual religions.

If you open up your forum to male members and adopt a more correct pagan stance a place within our search directory would be provided.

Editor
Wicca Search Directory
http://www.wicca.ws/
"


So Goddess women do not follow a "true pagan path", do they??! We need to adopt a more "correct pagan stance?" Who made him supreme authority?

One of the things we hold so dear at MysticWicks is respecting other people's beliefs. I know that most folks here are not Dianic, and may not believe you can have a balanced theory of the universe without the God. But everyone here respects everyone else's right to believe what they believe, and support their spiritual practice.

Please, let him know you think this type of response is disrespectful and that there are many who follow this spiritual path, whether you do or not. His address is editor@wicca.ws

Thank you for your help!!

On the War Path,
Wyrdsister

Myst
July 18th, 2002, 08:50 PM
:rolleyes:

I'm so glad MW supports having your own beliefs and not judging people!!

Xander67
July 18th, 2002, 08:52 PM
I feel that women have the right to have thier own groups just as men do..

IM sorry you had this happen to you Wyrdsister

Chibi-Fallon
July 18th, 2002, 09:11 PM
Itís his list and he has a right to be offended and not add you guys. I mean if heís paying for the domain he can refuse to add you and anyone else if he wants. I personally donít think he should but thatís not my call, and I doubt angry (even strongly worded or nice) emails are gonna chance his mind (after all weíre only people on the internet, not friends of his or anything, unless someone is). Theyíll probably only annoy him as he said ďnoĒ and getting a bunch of people to tell him how wrong that is probably wonít help. I know if someone did that to me Iíd just get defensive and there'd be no way I'd change my mind.
We canít present youíre side of the argument to him because we donít know it (at least I don't). Make a list of the reason a womenís group should be listed, and all the ways you think it helps women (or womyn, or whatever I lost track of the ways people like to spell that word).
If you want to deal with it stick to using people in the group donít get us goons to help as we really donít know a whole lot about the group (or at least I donít). Having us write him would be like the internet version of getting muscle guys to go scare him, except we canít really do anything.
Saying that you werenít true Pagans was probably uncalled for but he said it anyway so there you have it. Iíd just shrug it off and get on with running the group. If someone wants to find you guys chances are they will one way or another.
The only thing you could really call him on is if he added an all menís group but wouldnít let you guys on thatís unfair. But if he wouldnít add either then well thatís pretty fair and itís his thing.
Sorry this sounds kinda mean and Iíll probably get told to shut up which I may or may deserve but itís what I think anyway.

Phoenix Blue
July 18th, 2002, 09:33 PM
Good point, Chibi. It's a free market and a free country; and there're a lot of other search engines in the world, most notably Google. On the other hand, since it is a free market / free country, there's nothing wrong with Wyrdsister shouting from the rooftops just exactly why Wicca.ws sucks. I half wonder if it's being run by the same morons who put together the PUC.

My personal beliefs regarding the womyn vs. women thing; if I were running that list, I'd list anything Wiccan. Let the viewer decide what s/he doesn't want to look at or participate in; that's not my job. My job is to provide the best possible listing of Wiccan sites.

If this guy refuses to do that, he should ask himself why he's wasting his or anyone else's time with the website in the first place.

Myst
July 18th, 2002, 09:37 PM
It's not "godandgoddessorientedreligions.com", it's Wicca.ws - Wicca includes Dianic Wiccans.

Sure he has a right to deny sites but maybe he should post that on the front page and get a new domain huh?

I see your point Chibi and agree with you to a point, really, but PB is right too - wyrdsister and anyone who agrees with her also have every right to share her/our/their opinions. If it were an opinion site or something illegal/inappropriate I could see this, but it's supposed to be a Wiccan directory.

Old Witch
July 18th, 2002, 09:45 PM
I guess we can respect the fact that its his site and his loss.......

Myst
July 18th, 2002, 09:53 PM
Also, if he'd said 'I'd rather not add your site due to personal reasons' it'd be different; instead he went and bashed Dianics and told Wyrd all their beliefs are wrong and corrupt society.

That's pretty rude.

Xander67
July 18th, 2002, 10:16 PM
oh so it is ok for him to bash others religions, but not ok for women to have thier own list...:rolleyes:

I hope he doesnt run his site the way he disrespected Wyrdsister

Phoenix Blue
July 18th, 2002, 10:42 PM
If he does, then he'll maintain his site for all of about six months before he gives up on it due to lack of activity. His sort of attitude will not attract the people he's looking to list. When people find out they have to meet his criteria of what's Wiccan or not, they simply won't come back. . . and they'll tell everyone they know not to come back, too.

**Shrugs** Hél, even the website design sucks. It's just ugly.

Myst
July 18th, 2002, 10:52 PM
You're listed at Ariadnespider and all that good stuff right Wyrd? There's a thread somewhere in Pagan Geek with search engines to check out and submit to :)

Flaire-FireStar
July 19th, 2002, 12:09 AM
I checked that site out... And I can't believe they refused your suggestion. :rolleyes:

Being a directory (of all things), it doesn't really make sense.



just my .01

Kalosi
July 19th, 2002, 01:29 AM
I don't post a lot here, but I sure READ a lot. Wyrdsister gets her message out to a lot of people that I've come to see are open, honest, and thoughtful. Based on her bad experience I won't use the site, and I think that will be the norm. Too bad for him - he just lost a ton of people because he forgot about the rule of 7's!

Rule of 7's: 1 person tells 7 people about their bad experience, those 7 tell 7 others, and so on. It all adds up - or down!

Wyrdsister
July 19th, 2002, 10:06 AM
Thanks everyone for your replies! You made me feel better. :)

I agree with all the comments here: Yes, this is his site and he does have a right to include and NOT include what he wants, so I don't begrudge him that.

It's the utter disrespect for a spiritual path that gets me! The comment above that several of you made is right: he could have just said "Your site does not meet our listing criteria" and left it at that. But no, he felt he had the right to belittle someone's chosen path in life.

And by the categories in his listing, it SEEMS like he's trying to be very inclusive. Guess not!! :rolleyes:

Thanks again for all of your views and your support. It's good to know that there are friendly faces -- or at least, avatars ;) -- here at Mysticwicks!

BB, all!

Wyrdsister

mol
July 19th, 2002, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by Wyrdsister

Thanks again for all of your views and your support. It's good to know that there are friendly faces -- or at least, avatars ;) -- here at Mysticwicks!

BB, all!

Wyrdsister

You know you always have my support.

Twig
July 19th, 2002, 12:36 PM
:eyebrow: :dis: what did you say the URL was, elitistreligion.com?

:evilway: OkKKKKK. I am going there now. Let's just see whats shakin with this.

Don't worry Mol.......I'll be good. :bigredgri:

Promise! :scream: :evilway: :smoke: :ghost:

SS
:ghost:
{that is another Non de Plume I go by-it's still Twig. ;) }

Ok, This site is NEW! There is a very prominant link to Avalonia on the main page. I have emailed Avalonia and asked if these sites are related in any way. If so, well...we shall see.

Wyrdsister
July 19th, 2002, 02:24 PM
Hello again Mysticwicks!

Guess what? Another interesting response from Mr. Editor/Webmaster at Wicca.ws.

Before I submitted Canadian_Goddess as an online group for the Wicca.ws directory, I took at look at the Pagan Personals section of his site. I noticed that there were "Men Seeking Women" and "Women Seeking Men" categories. So I decided to write the Webmaster with a friendly suggestion:

I wrote:
----------------------------------
Hello Wicca.WS webmaster!

The site is looking great! Thanks for all your great work.

I just noticed that the categories you have in the Pagan Personals section are only for Men Seeking Women and Women Seeking Men. How about our gay and lesbian friends? Are you considering adding Women Seeking Women and Men Seeking Men categories? I think this would be a very open and welcoming addition to the Personals section.

Thanks for your time!

Wyrdsister
----------------------------------


Here is what he wrote back:
----------------------------------
Dear (Wyrdsister),

Thanks for your compliment about the www.wicca.ws site. It would seem that you passed my e-mail to you on to others as this morning I received five communications from irate members of your forum. No, I hard coded the Woman Seeking Women and Men Seeking Men categories out of the cgi script when we purchased it and would not dream of re-coding them back in.

This was done not because I'm homophobic but rather because we wish to develop a family friendly site so I don't see how helping to promote homosexuality or extreme feminism would be deemed highly by parents.

Webmaster
www.wicca.ws
----------------------------------


Yes, becaues Homosexuality and Extreme Feminism is bad for
children. *sigh*

Just thought you might be interested!

Wyrdsister


PS Mr. Editor Man was "polite" to me in comparisson with some other responses he's sent to online friends (all women, btw). He addressed one of them as "honey bunny" and told a few of them that they really didn't have a clue.

PPS INTOLERANCE SUCKS!! :mad:

Lavender
July 19th, 2002, 02:54 PM
It's people like him that gives human beings a bad name!

Phoenix Blue
July 19th, 2002, 03:07 PM
Maybe his tune will change if these E-mails are leaked to the Military Pagans website and to Wren over at Witchvox. :bigredgri Or, rather, if someone tells him they'll forward the e-mails to said groups if he continues discriminating against members of the Wiccan community.

Chibi-Fallon
July 19th, 2002, 03:09 PM
Wyrdsister, this guy's a jerk, and there's probably nothing we can do to change his jerkyness (I really don't think that a word). I mean if this guy won't list all of these things think of what else he won't list then thing won't get off the ground there's probably not a whole lot of point to adding your site as the thing is crappy. Add it to the list at http://www.dmoz.org they check all the sites by hand (er... yeah) and they give their links to places like yahoo and google, it's a really good way to get your site out there. Okay this post is more of my opinion on the matter then the last one. :D

Phoenix Blue
July 19th, 2002, 03:26 PM
Sent to webmaster@wicca.ws:

Webmaster,

I am a member of the Pagan community in Montgomery, AL, and a frequent visitor at the MysticWicks message forum. I am also a faith group liaison to the Maxwell Air Force Base military Pagan community.

I had occasion to read a series of e-mail communications between you and one of the other members of the MysticWicks forum, wherein you explain your decision to exclude recognized Wiccan traditions (such as Dianic Wicca) and alternate lifestyles (such as homosexuality) from your website.

This is, of course, your prerogative. However, I find your choice to exclude members of the Wiccan faith from your listings a poor one; and I find your justification of "creating a family-friendly website" a poor excuse for homophobia and bigotry. Many homosexual and bisexual Wiccans *are* parents and would be very put-off to hear that your site does not recognize them as such. I expect to hear "family-friendly" and similar buzzwords from right-wing Christian organizations--*not* from other Wiccans.

You may continue your policy, or you may choose to retract it in lieu of a more rational policy--one which recognizes the rights of Wiccans and Pagans to practice the traditions and lifestyles which are accepted within the wider Wiccan and Pagan communities. Regardless, copies of the E-mails you have already sent will be forwarded to the Military Pagan Network and to the Witches' Voice, along with a note that Wiccans and Pagans should *avoid* the services you offer.

Walk with Peace,

//signed//
Donald S. Branum

**Brushes the dust from his hands**

Wyrdsister
July 19th, 2002, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by Chibi-Fallon
Wyrdsister, this guy's a jerk, and there's probably nothing we can do to change his jerkyness (I really don't think that a word). I mean if this guy won't list all of these things think of what else he won't list then thing won't get off the ground there's probably not a whole lot of point to adding your site as the thing is crappy.
I agree, Chibi, and I only asked ONCE for that site to be posted at Wicca.ws. I did not ask again. I KNOW it's pointless, and that's why I didn't try again.

The reason I posted his responses here is to let other folks in the online pagan community know that unfortunately Wicca.ws will not be fully representitive of what's out there in the pagan online universe, BECAUSE Mr. Editor is not open to all paths. I also wanted to give others here the opportunity to respond to him if they felt so moved.

I also agree with you that his site probably won't get off the ground if he doesn't do a good job of adding lots of sites to his directory. Maybe he should put up a mission statement about what he wants to include so he doens't have to bother going through sites he doesn't like. :p

MP, all!
Wyrdsister

(btw, I think "jerkyness" is a perfectly good word. :T )

Flaire-FireStar
July 19th, 2002, 09:05 PM
He doesn't really deserve the time of day. :dis:




:T PB...You will let us know what he thinks of that?

yemayasdaughter
July 20th, 2002, 07:48 PM
Wyrdsister... I suggest that you contact other Wiccan based yahoo groups and have each of them try to have their group posted. I know of two that I am a member of: Pirate Sistahs United and African-American Wiccans (I wonder what excuses he will come up with THOSE groups!!) :D LOL

The webmaster of this site needs to think really hard about the reason he started this website. I mean, does he want to provide a useful service to ALL tha can benefit from it, or does he want to serve himself and others like him? :rolleyes:

If his intention is the latter (which I believe it is!) he should not be surprised when his website flops. It's a shame, though... seemed like a really good idea!!

leopardliongirl
September 10th, 2005, 07:46 AM
Sounds awful!

The lady at Avalonia has been very kind to me and helped me find out more about Wicca, I can't see how she would be connected with this. Has he changed the way the site is now, I see only lots of adverts when I go there?

BeachWitch
September 10th, 2005, 10:05 AM
www.wicca.ws (www.wicca.ws) appears to be gone. hmm, maybe too much pressure brought the endeavor to a halt.

FroggieThePunk
September 10th, 2005, 03:55 PM
Wow. It is great to see that even amongst us there are still jerk offs. And some people wonder why I am anti-social.

RhiannynWildseed
September 10th, 2005, 04:12 PM
**Brushes the dust from his hands**

http://www.smileyville.com/images/misc/1356.gif

Kudzu
September 10th, 2005, 04:26 PM
Meh, just as you have the right to exclude men from your site, he has the right to exclude your site from his content (all jerky comments about the "correct pagan stance" aside).

Chibi-Fallon
September 10th, 2005, 04:46 PM
:T 2002 seems so long ago I had just finished my 2nd year of high school. :wtf:

9-2-2
September 10th, 2005, 11:19 PM
Hello fellow MWers! :D

I was all excited to tell pagan folks I know that a new pagan online directory opening up: www.wicca.ws Being excited, I submitted a link for a Yahoo!group I help moderate, Canadian_Goddess, under their "Online Groups" category. It is a group for Canadian Goddess worshipping women. This is the response I received from the Editor of Wicca.WS

"
Sorry but I'm a male and kind of offended by the description of your forum when I visited it, i.e. "If you are male, kindly look for
another list." is blatently sexist IMHO and "Womyn's" is spelt "Women's" - separation of the sexes creates problems and
promotes unbalance, true pagan paths are not like that and this can only lead to decline in society and individual religions.

If you open up your forum to male members and adopt a more correct pagan stance a place within our search directory would be provided.

Editor
Wicca Search Directory
http://www.wicca.ws/
"

So Goddess women do not follow a "true pagan path", do they??! We need to adopt a more "correct pagan stance?" Who made him supreme authority?

One of the things we hold so dear at MysticWicks is respecting other people's beliefs. I know that most folks here are not Dianic, and may not believe you can have a balanced theory of the universe without the God. But everyone here respects everyone else's right to believe what they believe, and support their spiritual practice.

Please, let him know you think this type of response is disrespectful and that there are many who follow this spiritual path, whether you do or not. His address is editor@wicca.ws

Thank you for your help!!

On the War Path,
Wyrdsister

I think you're taking this the wrong way. He did not say that women-only covens are invalid, he just pointed out that the statement on your Yahoogroup was sexist.
And it is.
The statement shows that your group will flat-out reject men who seek spiritual fulfillment, merely because they were born with a penis. He's not disrespecting your beliefs... your list creates segregation and disrespects the male gender. I think the women-only and men-only fan clubs are pretty ridiculous... what we need is less separation and more understanding, regardless of sex. Remember the times when men in European society were respected ceremonial magicians, but if women displayed magickal talent, they were regarded as the "whores of Satan"? The Canadian Goddess list reminds of just that, except the other way around, and less extreme.
It's one thing to promote women's or men's spirituality, but it's wrong to reject people, who cannot help the way they were born.
Closed doors = closed mindedness, limitations, restrictions, boundaries, and little room to grow. Churches do not close their doors to anyone. Monasteries do not close their doors to anyone. Mentors do not close their doors to anyone.

I might be totally wrong and jumping to conclusions, so I'll ask: why are men not allowed on your list?

Sylvan
September 10th, 2005, 11:32 PM
:T 2002 seems so long ago I had just finished my 2nd year of high school. :wtf:

OMG! I got thru the entire thread and only when I read this did I realize it wasn't even current! 8O

9-2-2
September 10th, 2005, 11:36 PM
OMG! I got thru the entire thread and only when I read this did I realize it wasn't even current! 8O

Damn, I suck. I hop into a revived thread thinking it's hot stuff, and it's like, a million years old. :p

Jayble
July 9th, 2007, 08:36 PM
Looks like the site is up and running with a lot of listings...