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Fiamma
February 16th, 2008, 12:37 AM
Y'know....I could have sworn I'd done one on him. How could I never have done a god of the week on the Most Beautiful of The Gods, the Divine Prophet? Alas, I have searched, and there is none to be found. Shame on me.

Ie, Paean!


From http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Apollon.html


APOLLON (or Apollo) was the great Olympian god of prophecy and oracles, healing, plague and disease, music, song and poetry, archery, and the protection of the young. He was depicted as a handsome, beardless youth with long hair and various attributes including:--a wreath and branch of laurel; bow and quiver; raven; and lyre.

The most famous myths of Apollon include:--

* His birth on the island of Delos;
* The slaying of the serpent Python which guarded the oracular shrine of Delphoi;
* The slaying of the giant Tityos who attempted to carry off the god's mother Leto;
* The destruction of the Niobides whose mother had offended Leto with her boasts;
* His music contest with the satyr Marsyas who lost and was flayed alive;
* His love for the youth Hyakinthos who was killed by a discus throw and transformed into a flower;
* His love for the nymph Daphne who fled from him and was transformed into a laurel tree;
* His love for Koronis who was slain by Artemis for her infidelity;
* The murder of the Kyklopes who had forged the lightning bolt used to destroy his son Asklepios;
* His service as bondsman to the mortal Admetos;
* His struggle with Herakles for the Delphic tripod;
* The Trojan War in which he brought plague to the Greeks and helped Paris slay Akhilleus.



From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo


In Greek and Roman mythology, Apollo is one of the most important and many-sided of the Olympian deities. The ideal of the kouros (a beardless youth), Apollo has been variously recognized as a god of light and the sun; truth and prophecy; archery; medicine and healing; music, poetry, and the arts; and more. Apollo is son of Zeus and Leto, and has a twin sister, the chaste huntress Artemis. Apollo is known in Greek-influenced Etruscan mythology as Apulu. In Roman mythology he is known as Apollo.

As the patron of Delphi (Pythian Apollo), Apollo was an oracular god the prophetic deity of the Delphic Oracle. Medicine and healing were associated with Apollo, whether through the god himself or mediated through his son Asclepius. Apollo was also seen as a god who could bring ill-health and deadly plague as well as one who had the ability to cure. Amongst the god's custodial charges, Apollo became associated with dominion over colonists, and as the patron defender of herds and flocks. As the leader of the Muses (Apollon Musagetes) and director of their choir, Apollo functioned as the patron god of music and poetry. Hermes created the lyre for him, and the instrument became a common attribute of Apollo. Hymns sung to Apollo were called paeans.

In Hellenistic times, especially during the third century BCE, as Apollo Helios he became identified among Greeks with Helios, god of the sun, and his sister Artemis similarly equated with Selene, goddess of the moon.[1] In Latin texts, however, Joseph Fontenrose declared himself unable to find any conflation of Apollo with Sol among the Augustan poets of the first century, not even in the conjurations of Aeneas and Latinus in Aeneid XII (161-215).[2] Apollo and Helios/Sol remained separate beings in literary and mythological texts until the third century CE.


From http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/apollo.html

The son of Zeus and Leto, and the twin brother of Artemis. Apollo was the god of music (principally the lyre, and he directed the choir of the Muses) and also of prophecy, colonization, medicine, archery (but not for war or hunting), poetry, dance, intellectual inquiry and the carer of herds and flocks. He was also a god of light, known as "Phoebus" (radiant or beaming, and he was sometimes identified with Helios the sun god). He was also the god of plague and was worshiped as Smintheus (from sminthos, rat) and as Parnopius (from parnops, grasshopper) and was known as the destroyer of rats and locust, and according to Homer's Iliad, Apollo shot arrows of plague into the Greek camp. Apollo being the god of religious healing would give those guilty of murder and other immoral deeds a ritual purification. Sacred to Apollo are the swan (one legend says that Apollo flew on the back of a swan to the land of the Hyperboreans, he would spend the winter months among them), the wolf and the dolphin. His attributes are the bow and arrows, on his head a laurel crown, and the cithara (or lyre) and plectrum. But his most famous attribute is the tripod, the symbol of his prophetic powers.



From http://www.loggia.com/myth/apollo.html

Apollo is in many respects the paradigm of a Greek god. He represents order, harmony, and civilization in a way that most other Olympian deities cannot quite equal. One only has to compare him with Dionysos to understand how Apollo is depicted as a bright, rational counterpart to the chaotic and frenzied god of wine and women. Indeed, Apollo is most often associated with the cultivated arts of music and medicine, and his role as the leader of the Muses establishes him as a patron of intellectual pursuits.

Therefore, it comes as no surprise that in art, images of Apollo represented the height of male attractiveness - indeed, for years, Archaic statues of youths were commonly referred to as "Apollo", later to be replaced the more accurate term "kouros" (young man). However, as with most Greek deities, Apollo has characteristics that are myriad and diverse, so we should proceed to an exploration of this important god.



From http://www.lilithgallery.com/library/greek/Apollo.html

Note: Apollo is the god of light, not the sun. Helios (Sol in Roman myth) is the Greek god of the sun. It wasn't until 3rd century BC that Apollo became identified with the sun, and became known as Apollo Helios.

Apollo was the sun of Zeus and Leto and the twin of Artemis (Diana in Roman mythology). He was born under a palm tree on the Aegean island of Delos, which became a major centre of Apollo's cult worshippers.

He had the gift of prophecy and his central temple was the oracle at Delphi where people could seek advice and prophecies from his high priestess, the Sybil. Apollo also is known as Pythian because he killed a giant python snake which had terrorized Delphi.

Apollo's arrows were said to cause illness and yet at the same time he was revered as a healer. His son Asclepius was the main Greek god of medicine. He was also a god of poetry, music and is frequently shown with a lyre and the nine Muses.

He was also known as Phoebus (Shining One) because of his role as the god of light.



From http://www.timelessmyths.com/classical/olympians.html#Apollo
A god of youth, music, prophecy, archery and healing. Twin brother of the goddess Artemis (Diana), Apollo was the son of Zeus and the Titaness, Leto, daughter of the titans, Coes (Coeus) and Phoebe.

He was popularly known as Phoebus Apollo, and therefore known as the god of light and the sun. Apollo was depicted with a perfect male body: muscular but youthful. He had always appeared beardless on statues.

Apollo was the god of archery, and he carried a silver bow like his sister. Apollo often enjoyed hunting with his sister, and sometimes with his mother. He also possessed a golden sword.

Apollo was the god of music. Hermes gave him the lyre that he invented, making the instrument with a tortoise shell and sheep guts for strings. No one, god or mortal, could play the lyre better than Apollo could.

Some say that Apollo was the father of the greatest mortal musician, Orpheus, by Calliope, one of the Muses, while other writers say that Orpheus' father was the Thracian king, Oeagrus. Nevertheless, Orpheus also played the lyre. Another son of Apollo, named Linus, was also a great musician, but was killed by his pupil Heracles.More links here:

http://www.kyklosapollon.org/main.htm
http://www.wildivine.org/apollon.htm
http://www.geocities.com/gm_apollo/
http://www.in2greece.com/english/historymyth/mythology/names/apollo.htm
http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/grecoromanmyth1/p/Apollo.htm
http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Apollo.html (Bilingual- English/Spanish)

Agaliha
February 16th, 2008, 04:04 PM
:) Nice choice!
Is there anything you'd like to add about Apollo, personal or otherwise?

David19
February 16th, 2008, 10:17 PM
Really cool, Fiamma, and it's good to see Apollo as God of the week, he's one of my favourite Greek deities (the others being Athene, Hecate, Hades and Aries, and a few others). He seems like a very cool God.

Like Agaliha said, it would be quite cool to hear any personal experiences you've had with him :).

Fiamma
February 16th, 2008, 11:20 PM
:) Nice choice!
Is there anything you'd like to add about Apollo, personal or otherwise?

You may never see the end of this thread...lol....

I will try to add some personal notes. Unfortunately, I have a hard time writing coherently about Apollo because there is jsut so much that I can't convey- to my satisfaction anyway- in words. Also, lately, my experience of Apollo has been rather tied to my experienece of Dionysus, so a lot of it contradicts the typical idea of Apollo as this figure of strict rationality, order and logic. There is historical basis for the contradiction...it's just not the stuff that everyone references when writing about the ancient gods, and it doesn't fit into the nice, neat pigeonhole that a lot of people want nowadays. But you only have to look so far as the Orphic hymn to Apollo to see that he is called "wild" and named Bakhos- which is another name for Dionysus, and is associated with Pan...who is hardly a neat and orderly god.



Come, O blessed Paian, O slayer of Tityos, O Phoibos, O Lykoreus.
A giver of riches are you and an illustrious dweller in Memphis,
O god to whom one cries "ie".
To you, O Titan and Pythian god belong the lyre and seeds and plows.
Grynean, Sminthian, slayer of Pytho, Delphic diviner,
You are a wild, light-bringing and lovable god, O glorious youth.
You shoot your arrows from afar, you lead the Muses into dance,
And, O holy one, you are Bacchos, Didymeus, and Loxias too.
Lord of Delos, eye that sees all and brings light to mortals,
Golden is your hair and clear your oraculr utterances.
Hear me with kindly heart as I pray for people.
You gaze upon all the etheral vastness,
And upon the rich earth you look throught the twilight.
In the quiet darkness of night lit with stars you see earth's roots below,
And you hold the bounds of the whole world.
Yours, too are the beginning and the end to come.
You make everything bloom, and with your versatile lyre you harmonize the poles,
Now reaching the highest pitch, now the lowest and now again with the Doric mode,
Balancing the poles harmoniously, as you keep the living races distinct.
You have infused harmony into all men's lot,
Giving them equal measure of summer and winter.
The lowest notes you strike in the winter, the highest in summer,
And your mode is Doric for spring's lovely and blooming season.
Wherefore mortals call you lord, and Pan, the two-horned god,
Who sends the whistling winds.
For this too, you have the master seal of the entire cosmos.
O, blessed one, hear the supplicant voice of the initiates and save them.

This is not the only example out there.

I'm still figuring out what this all means to me...

Here's a bit that I wrote a while back on ir/rationality and Apollo:

A majority of my religious experience occurred before I came to be a follower of Apollo. From him, I have gained not strict rationality, but a balance between rational and irrational- I actually tend somewhat towards the irrational and for a long time was afraid of forgoing all emotion in favor of logic by his influence, but once again, what I have gained is not one over the other but how to balance the two. To forgo all irrationality would be to go against the wisdom of Apollo himself, one of the Delphic maxims reminds us "nothing in excess"...to adhere to one and not the other would be a bit excessive, no? It is my personal feeling that a true Apollonian must be able to acknowledge this and have a grip on both the rational and irrational.What I'm really trying to work on lately is writing an essay on my experience of the cross-associations of Apollo and Dionysus

Zephyrstorm
February 17th, 2008, 10:41 AM
You may never see the end of this thread...lol....

I will try to add some personal notes. Unfortunately, I have a hard time writing coherently about Apollo because there is jsut so much that I can't convey- to my satisfaction anyway- in words. Also, lately, my experience of Apollo has been rather tied to my experienece of Dionysus, so a lot of it contradicts the typical idea of Apollo as this figure of strict rationality, order and logic. There is historical basis for the contradiction...it's just not the stuff that everyone references when writing about the ancient gods, and it doesn't fit into the nice, neat pigeonhole that a lot of people want nowadays. But you only have to look so far as the Orphic hymn to Apollo to see that he is called "wild" and named Bakhos- which is another name for Dionysus, and is associated with Pan...who is hardly a neat and orderly god.



This is not the only example out there.

I'm still figuring out what this all means to me...

Here's a bit that I wrote a while back on ir/rationality and Apollo:

A majority of my religious experience occurred before I came to be a follower of Apollo. From him, I have gained not strict rationality, but a balance between rational and irrational- I actually tend somewhat towards the irrational and for a long time was afraid of forgoing all emotion in favor of logic by his influence, but once again, what I have gained is not one over the other but how to balance the two. To forgo all irrationality would be to go against the wisdom of Apollo himself, one of the Delphic maxims reminds us "nothing in excess"...to adhere to one and not the other would be a bit excessive, no? It is my personal feeling that a true Apollonian must be able to acknowledge this and have a grip on both the rational and irrational.What I'm really trying to work on lately is writing an essay on my experience of the cross-associations of Apollo and Dionysus

I love the fact that Apollo and Dionysos have so many connections. Yet, wasn't it Nietzsche who came up with the false dichotomy of Apollo = logical and orderly and Dionysos = irrational and chaotic?
I think the original relationship was far more fluid, based on what I've read.
I think one of the main notes of the "nothing in excess" maxim is that that includes one's own moderation. We could interpret the story that is associated with it as a "there's a time for all things, in their season, and to their measure" vision. Something that I greatly agree with.

I'm looking forward to learning more, Fiamma.
Thank you.

Fiamma
February 17th, 2008, 11:41 PM
I love the fact that Apollo and Dionysos have so many connections. Yet, wasn't it Nietzsche who came up with the false dichotomy of Apollo = logical and orderly and Dionysos = irrational and chaotic?

Oh yeah, gotta love the Victorians and their keywording and pigeonholing of the gods.



I think the original relationship was far more fluid, based on what I've read.

I agree. The two may appear mutually exclusive on the surface, but if you scratch it...

For several months now, the Apollo/Dionysus split of Delphi has been a topic of fascination in my mind. I've read in a few places that some scholars think that they may be two halves of the same god. While I definitely do not believe this, it has spawned an interesting theory for me...here's a bit that I wrote about it back in November. I just copied and pasted it from my livejournal:


Wrote this a few days ago as a response to the thread on the Neokoroi list on people feeling sadness due to Apollo departing for his winter in the north with the Hyporboreans...

Hmmm....this is interesting. For some weeks now, I've been expecting to wake up and feel like something was different, or amiss. Ever since the dream I had of Dionysus a few weeks ago, the Delphic split has been on my mind to one extent or another on a near constant basis, and it made sense that perhaps Dionysus was coming to take a more predominant part of my life for the moment, while Apollo would step back but that's not happened.

Dionysus hovers close, I am frequently reminded of his presence, though I don't actually need reminders. However, it seems that Apollo has drawn even closer. I sometimes wake up in the morning feeling a similar semi-delirious languor as I did when he stepped from the shadows during the Dionysus dream and pulled the arrow that he had just shot at me from my chest. When I'm awake, I feel a nearly-constant, almost tangible-presence.

I find it fascinating that each has been appearing in a manner more obviously appropriate to the other. In my mind, the ideas of balance and binary opposition- two opposites, without the other, one cannot exist- which have always been interesting to me have jumped much more to the forefront of my mind.

And then there is this theory which I recently ran across, I think while reading William Broad's book The Oracle: Ancient Delphi and the Science Behind Its Lost Secrets, mentioned only very briefly but still churning around in my mind since then, that some scholars have had the idea that Apollo and Dionysus are two halves of the same god. To be clear, I do not believe this but it is a fascinating idea and I can see where it could come from. The related idea that I have settled on for the moment as my understanding is not two halves of one whole...but more like two atoms sharing a covalent bond, connected by common threads, very difficult to separate one from the other.

I don't know. Maybe I'm experiencing some sort of between-time overlap. I'm working on a ritual to celebrate Lampteria next weekend. Maybe that will trigger a more seasonally-appropriate shift in my perception. Or another possible cause is that it's all connected to some things that have been going on with me that I'll not go into now (though I can suddenly see inspiring an interesting work of short fiction...) in that I need to be seeing this intricate connection of one and the other, two separate entities that cannot be wholly bisected- seasonal events be damned. Part of me is hoping that the first is true, part of me is hoping the second. In any event, the gods will do as they will, I will (hopefully) see what they want me to see.

Do I sound like a raving lunatic here? At the same time, it's making perfect sense to me...but sounding somewhat ludicrous as I reread the words.


And after someone suggested the idea of twins, without a whole lot of elaboration as to what was meant:

I hadn't thought of this in the sense of twins...and I don't actually think that that's what I'm thinking of here, but I'm not sure.

It's like....ummmm...different evolutions of the same little slice of the divine? In one way, they're so different, but if you go 359 degrees from one, you come to the other. All the difference is contained in that 360th degree. Small, but still there and if you look closely enough, you can see the same inner core...




I think one of the main notes of the "nothing in excess" maxim is that that includes one's own moderation. We could interpret the story that is associated with it as a "there's a time for all things, in their season, and to their measure" vision. Something that I greatly agree with.

I'm looking forward to learning more, Fiamma.
Thank you.


Glad you like the thread. I'm always happy to babble on for a bit about Apollo :-)

Stoirmeacha
February 17th, 2008, 11:55 PM
This is really interesting. I admit that this is the first time I have noticed God of the Week. How can I find the others???

Fiamma
February 18th, 2008, 12:51 AM
This is really interesting. I admit that this is the first time I have noticed God of the Week. How can I find the others???

You can find an archive right here: http://mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=422

Algaliha has spent ridiculous amounts of time creating the archive. It's basically all the gods of the week that exist. (You'll notice that we don't hit every single week, but we try, I promise!)

If there's any not on the list that you're interested in seeing, let us know, or just pantheons in general that you'd like to see more of. (Personally, I tend to default to Greek, I'm a bit of a Hellenic nerd...but try to get a little more exotic from time to time.) Or if you know of any good links for any of them that aren't included in the thread, feel free to post them (I'm pretty sure they're all still open for updating)

Zephyrstorm
February 18th, 2008, 05:42 PM
I can't really buy the idea that Apollo and Dionysos could be the same being. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the relationship between Dionysos and Hades - however close that might or might not be.

lol
Nothing says that Apollo and Dionysos couldn't have developed their ritual year simply because the Greeks noticed a symmetry in their... I don't have a word that fits here... beings?
We know that Dionysos has possible origins in Crete and in Anatolia, and that Apollo is said to have come from the North. Could it be a case where the locals were coming to terms with these "foreign" Gods, and so they emphasized the parts of the Gods and the lore that rang true with them?

Just speculation of course.
I need to learn more about Apollo, since Dionysos has clocked me on the head with a thyrsus, before I can comfortably really delve into ideas.

(and you don't want to get me started on the Victorian keywords for deities thing, we'll be here for days listening to me rant about the inadequacies of it. LOL)

Fiamma
February 18th, 2008, 07:10 PM
I can't really buy the idea that Apollo and Dionysos could be the same being. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the relationship between Dionysos and Hades - however close that might or might not be.

There's a thread around here about that. I forget who started it, it was a few months ago. If it wasn't you and you never saw it, you might be interested in that... I'll look for it when I get to work .



lol
Nothing says that Apollo and Dionysos couldn't have developed their ritual year simply because the Greeks noticed a symmetry in their... I don't have a word that fits here... beings?
We know that Dionysos has possible origins in Crete and in Anatolia, and that Apollo is said to have come from the North. Could it be a case where the locals were coming to terms with these "foreign" Gods, and so they emphasized the parts of the Gods and the lore that rang true with them?


Actually...Apollo also is believed to have come from Asia Minor, as are Leto and Artemis. Actually, Anatolia was a major center of Leto's worship. There is a place called the Letoon, where all three were worshipped together. (I can post more on this later when I get to work...I'm leaving in a few mintues.) But he spent his winters in the north, with the Hyperboreans




Just speculation of course.
I need to learn more about Apollo, since Dionysos has clocked me on the head with a thyrsus, before I can comfortably really delve into ideas.

If I can help at all, let me know.



(and you don't want to get me started on the Victorian keywords for deities thing, we'll be here for days listening to me rant about the inadequacies of it. LOL)

Listening? I'd probably be competing with you for who can rant the longest and loudest :-P

David19
February 18th, 2008, 09:19 PM
There's a thread around here about that. I forget who started it, it was a few months ago. If it wasn't you and you never saw it, you might be interested in that... I'll look for it when I get to work .

I'd like to see that thread too, as it sounds quite interesting.



Actually...Apollo also is believed to have come from Asia Minor, as are Leto and Artemis. Actually, Anatolia was a major center of Leto's worship. There is a place called the Letoon, where all three were worshipped together. (I can post more on this later when I get to work...I'm leaving in a few mintues.) But he spent his winters in the north, with the Hyperboreans

I've heard something similar before, I've also read Apollo came from the Middle East. I think Utu, the Sumerian sun God, was a big influence on Apollo (although despite the connection, I don't see them being as the same deity, evolved from, yes, but not the same anymore).

Although you might know more about that. Also, if you wouldn't mind, could you post more about Leto, Apollo and Artemis being worshipped together.

Thanks and really great posts, BTW, I'm learning a lot :).

Fiamma
February 18th, 2008, 10:31 PM
I'd like to see that thread too, as it sounds quite interesting.


You don't remember it? You participated in it...lol...I even want to say that you started it, but I think i'm wrong on that count.


*goes to dig it up

Fiamma
February 18th, 2008, 10:40 PM
There's a thread around here about that. I forget who started it, it was a few months ago. If it wasn't you and you never saw it, you might be interested in that... I'll look for it when I get to work .

Okay...there's a thread but apparently my memory wasn't what I thought and it's much shorter than I remember it being. (Zephyrstorm, you started it!!)

http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=171212&highlight=zagreus

I had meant to bring my Gods of the Greeks boom with me to see what references I could pull from it, but it seems I left it at home in my kitchen...so, tomorrow.

Fiamma
February 19th, 2008, 12:04 AM
Although you might know more about that. Also, if you wouldn't mind, could you post more about Leto, Apollo and Artemis being worshipped together.

Soon as I decide if I should start a new thread or tack it onto an existing thread...and if so, which one...lol

Zephyrstorm
February 19th, 2008, 11:30 AM
lol - I vaguely remember that now.

silly life distracted me from investigating deeper. Thanks for bringing it back up.

Now we could always start one for Apollo and Dionysos. :D

Toki Wartooth
February 19th, 2008, 06:53 PM
I apologize if this is in any way annoying, but ... is there any way you can find any Roman-specific information? I've tried googling it myself, specifying "Roman Apollo," but I constantly find web sites or pages that say things like, "Greek or Roman ... Apollo" rather than simply the Roman one. I have a feeling books might be more of use to me than web sites, and I already own a copy of the Dictionary of Roman Religion by the two Adkins; but, I think there's also a handbook to ancient Roman religion, possibly by them...

I also know that a few of the Religio Romana sites have some info on the specifically Roman Apollo, though that's already information I possess. I'm not sure where I could find more.

On a different note, I find it intriguing how Apollon and Dionysos are sometimes mentioned together for a variety of reasons. I myself have personally almost always associated (going back to the Roman) Apollo with Mercury.

Fiamma
February 19th, 2008, 10:51 PM
I apologize if this is in any way annoying, but ... is there any way you can find any Roman-specific information? I've tried googling it myself, specifying "Roman Apollo," but I constantly find web sites or pages that say things like, "Greek or Roman ... Apollo" rather than simply the Roman one. I have a feeling books might be more of use to me than web sites, and I already own a copy of the Dictionary of Roman Religion by the two Adkins; but, I think there's also a handbook to ancient Roman religion, possibly by them...

I also know that a few of the Religio Romana sites have some info on the specifically Roman Apollo, though that's already information I possess. I'm not sure where I could find more.

On a different note, I find it intriguing how Apollon and Dionysos are sometimes mentioned together for a variety of reasons. I myself have personally almost always associated (going back to the Roman) Apollo with Mercury.

No worries, this isn't annoying at all.

I'm far more educated on things Hellenic than I am Roman, but here's what I've been able to gether in the last year or so since I started looking for more on Roman mythology:

1. Apollo is a wholly Hellenic import to Rome. From what I can gather, they associate him a bit more closely with the sun than the Greeks did, but otherwise, pretty much just picked him up and ported him over.

One thing that I've found that may be helpful to you, if you haven't found out yourself already- there is very little actual Roman mythology. Most of what is called Roman mythology is actually Greek mythology with Roman names- Ovid's Metamorphoses, for example is an extremely extensive collection of Greek mythology written into one volume by a Roman poet.

That doesn't mean though that all the Roman deities are Greek imports- from what I can tell, Apollo is fairly unique in that sense. He and Leto (Latona to the Romans, though I think she actually took on a little bit more to her identity with the
Romans, having somethign to do with graveyards instead of being strictly a mother goddess, wholly tied to her relationship with Apollo and Artemis and no mythology of her own...I'm not entirely clear on that though) Most of the Roman "conterparts" to the Greek deities actually are at least somewhat, if not very different from the Greek- for instance if you research at all Venus versus Aphrodite or Mars versus Ares

you'll probably find this article on wikipedia interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Di_indigetes

2. I don't know about Apollo and Mercury and how the Romans associated the two, but Apollo and Hermes are quite closely associated also by the Greeks- havea look at the long Homeric hymn to Hermes if you're not fgamiliar with the story of Hermes and Apollo's cattle...it's availabe in the MW library (link is conveniently placed in my signature!). Also, I don't know what sort of associations may or may not be made with Apollo and Liber or Bacchus. (Actually, Apollo, Hermes and Dionysus are all very closely related, and I don't know if you've talked to many Hellenics, but if you talk to any number, you'll sooner or later stumble upon quite a few who closely worship some combination of those three, and often will find that even amongst folks who worship only one or two of them, that the other one or two will pop in and out from time to time.)


Have you looked at all at Nova Roma (Roman reconstructionist organization) They treat Apollo as a foreign deity- http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Main_Page If you look underthe "Roman religion" box and click "foreign priesthoods", apollo is listed, thogh there's not any real information...here's their main religion page: http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Cultus_deorum_Romanorum

I hope this was of some assistance, but I'm afraid I'm not especially helpful in Roman territory, and wouldn't even really be sure who to ask around here for more info. I'd probably suggest just starting with Nova Roma...lol

Oh...also, there are some Roman books here, a bit more than halfway down the page: http://www.adf.org/training/resources/reading.html

Toki Wartooth
February 20th, 2008, 01:43 AM
I can't and won't say I ever was or am any sort of armchair expert on Roman mythology, but I can say I used to be an eclectic pagan with very big Roman leanings. (But, I never considered myself a Recon.) But, I do know that quite a bit of the actual folk lore behind Roman religion was borrowed and/or adjusted from the Greek. Still, I know that Roman religion was also influenced by the old Etruscans' religion, an old Italian tribe that was basically swallowed up by the Empire. And, I'm fairly certain that, at least most of, the Roman deities weren't actually anthropomorphic, that they gained such characteristics later, particularly when coming into such close contact with Grecian ideas. And, later, I think, if memory serves, when the Empire had expanded enough to reach Britannia, sometimes the deities were associated with Celtic deities and whatnot. I suppose that starts go into the diversity within the Roman Empire, though.

There are certainly many deities that are quite different (whether in importance, attributes/associations, appearance, personal histories, &c.) from their supposedly equivalent deities in the Greek pantheon, so it's interesting to find Apollo was almost taken whole-sale, so to speak. Even so, I tend to treat them as individuals, since one originated and remained in one culture, while the other got transferred and became rooted in another.

I've read quite a bit of that Ovid book you mentioned. In fact, I had a Latin class back in high school where almost half of the material was from it. I have yet to finish the whole thing, but I'm glad I own a copy. I'll make sure to read it and pay attention closely. :) (I also own Virgil's Aeneid and a whole collection of Catullus' poetry, though I need/want to buy Ovid's Fasti, which would be very useful on the Roman religion topic.) Speaking of books, have you ever read or heard of The Mask of Apollo by Mary Renault? I've recently started reading it, and it's very well-written! I couldn't tell if it's accurate as a historical novel, since I know much less about Hellenic culture, but you might enjoy it. Oh, and, of course, as the book's title suggests, Apollo himself, his oracle, his cities, &c. are all over the place in the story.

Oh, I hadn't seen that at Nova Roma. Interesting. Well, I don't know if this means or helps anything, but: http://www.religioromana.net/dii_consentes/apollo.htm That speculates some on the etymology of Apollo's name and touches upon some possible foreign (Etruscan and Phoenician in particular) influence.

As for the Apollo/Mercury association, that may have been of my own doing. I'm not sure how many ties those two historically had in ancient Roman religion, but when I was a pagan (consider myself agnostic for right now), I definitely associated those two quite often. I had considered them my patron gods, and I found that they worked together extremely well. I think part of it had to do with their crossing paths in the mythology, when Mercury was born and pulled that cow trick but then made a lyre and exchanged it for the caduceus. I've also read that Mercury is considered a minor god of poetry, and since Apollo tends to be a god of (the) art(s), those two stick out to me as arts-related gods, though Apollo moreso than Mercury. Mercury's also a deity of oratory, which although I believe starts out as a science (when one is a student of it and has just started learning the rules and whatnot), turns into art by professionals; so, to me, that is another bridge between the two gods.

Then there is the caduceus itself. It is associated with Mercury, and supposedly it can cause someone to fall asleep/wake up when touched with it, though it's also a sign of medicine, something Apollo (and his son, Asclepius) reign over.

Whew. That was a lot to get out.

Fiamma
February 20th, 2008, 03:15 AM
As for the Apollo/Mercury association, that may have been of my own doing. I'm not sure how many ties those two historically had in ancient Roman religion, but when I was a pagan (consider myself agnostic for right now), I definitely associated those two quite often. I had considered them my patron gods, and I found that they worked together extremely well. I think part of it had to do with their crossing paths in the mythology, when Mercury was born and pulled that cow trick but then made a lyre and exchanged it for the caduceus. I've also read that Mercury is considered a minor god of poetry, and since Apollo tends to be a god of (the) art(s), those two stick out to me as arts-related gods, though Apollo moreso than Mercury. Mercury's also a deity of oratory, which although I believe starts out as a science (when one is a student of it and has just started learning the rules and whatnot), turns into art by professionals; so, to me, that is another bridge between the two gods.

Then there is the caduceus itself. It is associated with Mercury, and supposedly it can cause someone to fall asleep/wake up when touched with it, though it's also a sign of medicine, something Apollo (and his son, Asclepius) reign over.

Whew. That was a lot to get out.

Ah yeah...the caduceus- also written of in the long Homeric hymn to Hermes- in that story, it was given to him by Apollo.

I've heard of the mask of Apollo, but not read it. I was interested in looking into it, but had forgotten all about it, I'll have to add that to my list.

Fiamma
February 20th, 2008, 09:07 PM
All right, I've got this figured out, so look for a couple of threads later tonight or early tomorrow morning on the subjects of the relationships of specific deities as people have expressed interest in discussing.


Soon as I decide if I should start a new thread or tack it onto an existing thread...and if so, which one...lol

Toki Wartooth
February 23rd, 2008, 12:42 AM
I remembered I had some poems/hymns in a binder related to certain deities, and Apollo's one of them. So, here's one by Percy Bysshe Shelley to start:


The sleepless Hours who watch me as I lie,
Curtained with star-inwoven tapestries
From the broad moonlight of the sky,
Fanning the busy dreams from my dim eyes,--
Waken me when their Mother, the gray Dawn,
Tells them that dreams and that the moon is gone.
From: http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext03/shly210.txt
(Fastest way to find it = Ctrl+F "Hymn of Apollo")

Here's Keats' "Hymn to Apollo":

God of the golden bow,
And of the golden lyre,
And of the golden hair,
And of the golden fire,
Charioteer
From: http://emule.com/poetry/?page=poem&poem=779

And, here's the Orphic hymn, translated by Thomas Taylor:

BLEST Pan, come, propitious to my pray'r,
Illustrious pow'r, whom Memphian tribes revere,
Slayer of Tityus, and the God of health,
Lycorian Phbus, fruitful source of wealth .
From here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hoo/hoo38.htm

Twinkle
February 24th, 2008, 01:33 PM
I've found that where there is Apollo, there is Dionysus, and where there is Dionysus, there is Hermes.

I'd be interested in discussing the connection between all three of them.