Celtic coming-of-age

[zionwood]

Does anyone here have any information about Celtic coming-of-age customs and ceremonies, especially for women? Especially from Ireland and Wales? Or can anyone direct me to sources of such information?

Thanks.

[Stoirmeacha]

I am sorry to say we don't have much on that subject. The Celts recorded nothing.
However I read about Celtic coming of age ritual theories. I have heard one that said boys of 16 apparently lost their virginity ritually...not sure how that went, but I doubt that that would be useful today. Women may have had the custom of being seperated from the male part of the tribe during "first bleeding" as it was put. Some may have had rituals similar to Native American vision quests, where they would spend a time in isolation.
But all is left to educated geuss and assumption.
I'm an Irish Celtic Recon, but I can't say I have heard much within my religion of such rituals.

[zionwood]

all right, thanks.

[odubhain]

Does anyone here have any information about Celtic coming-of-age customs and ceremonies, especially for women? Especially from Ireland and Wales? Or can anyone direct me to sources of such information?

Thanks.There's the taking up of arms episode that occurs for CúChulain in the Táin. I would imagine that girls came of age in much the same way: they took up the responsibilities of a woman among their people and were most probably awarded the necessary emblems and tools of the trade (and then expected to demonstrate skill in the process). In Cú's case, he was sent out to patrol the borders. In a girl's case, she might have been given a similar task within the household: a meal, making clothes, decorating or managing the stores.

Fionn had a similar episode in his acceptance into a warrior band. This was also acccompanied by a naming ceremony IIRC.

Searles

[Phi]

Since it is well known that women often fought with the men, and that some (in myth at least)were experts at warfare, and that at least one (in history) lead armies against the Romans, and that there were women judges, physicians, ovates, ambassadors, priestesses, ect...perhaps some women's coming-of-age rites might have been a bit more broad in scope than simply "household" ...as were women's duties? Householding has it's honors, of course, but it isn't all that women are/were about.

Generally, coming of age rites have more to do with sexuality than with occupation. Mayday was a fertility celebration in which I daresay many Celtic youths of both sexes participated in coming of age rites...

Ah Searles, how easy to see from the perspective of our own culture, and how difficult to see from that of the ancient ones.

[odubhain]

Since it is well known that women often fought with the men,
I'd be very interested in learning more about this.
and that some (in myth at least)were experts at warfare, and that at least one (in history) lead armies against the Romans, and that there were women judges, physicians, ovates, ambassadors, priestesses, ect...perhaps some women's coming-of-age rites might have been a bit more broad in scope than simply "household" ...as were women's duties? Householding has it's honors, of course, but it isn't all that women are/were about.
Do you know of instances of where a coming of age ceremony was associated with being a judge, a physician, an ovate (sic), ambassador or priestess in Celtic traditions? I'd love to learn about these as well.

Generally, coming of age rites have more to do with sexuality than with occupation. Mayday was a fertility celebration in which I daresay many Celtic youths of both sexes participated in coming of age rites...
Do you have a source where this idea is featured or demonstrated? I do know that girls were considered to be women at age 14 among Irish Celts and suitable for marriage then. For some reason the age of 17 for boys to men seems to stick in my head. I'll have to track down a source (this may be the age at which boys who were fostered out cam back to their birth families.

Ah Searles, how easy to see from the perspective of our own culture, and how difficult to see from that of the ancient ones.

Phi, it is difficult to avoid projecting one's views onto other cultures. That's why stories, tales and traditions preserved from those cultures are so important.

What I've presented about "coming of age" for Irish Celts came out of such stories and tales (notably the Táin) and I'm really interested in learning where your ideas originated about this, as I feel the information available to most of us is meager on this topic.

Searles

[odubhain]

In searching for tales and traditions about womanhood or becoming a woman among the Irish, I did come across a tale about Eachtach (daughter of Grainne and Diarmuid) who sought to avenge her parents death at the hands of Fionn. On hearing of their death she has this reaction (Eoin MacNeill, Duanaire Finn, Part 1, The Lays of Fionn, XVIII, pages 149-151, Irish Texts Society, 1904):

"Out starts the spirit of womanhood that dwelt in the athletic fair-bright maid: into her comes a quick spirit of manhood when she hears the tidings.

Eachtach, raging, sends for her brothers: they come quickly, haughtily (?) at rising time on the morrow.

The deed-vaulting band come together to make a devastation: it was a devastation of mighty fame, what they had slain by evening.

For three days and full nights the spoiling of the Táin had not been greater: none to surpass them come after them until doomsday."

Later on in the same poem, we hear more of her battle feats:

"When Eachtach's golden blade touched the son of Caol of the sword-edge feats, it hewed him down with its strong stroke til it made of him two Daolghuses.

The blue keen-active blade pierced with ease through the shield of Fionn, and cuts three strong ribs in the chest of the hero.

He gave a groan of overmatching, Fionn Ua Baoiscne though a man of blood: from him fell in a mighty crash the drizzling Dripping Ancient Hazel.

Tis then that the warrior was in lamentable case at the hands of the active woman: he seemed no bigger than a half-grown boy in the shelter of his shield at the fray.

To look at Fionn in that strait the sons of Baoiscne could not bear: to his relief for the first men cam Oisin and Caoilte.

To the relief of his lord goes Lodhorn bold and handsome: slays the high-couraged maiden with triumph of exultation and achievement."

Eachtach had challenged Fionn to single combat and was clearly doing him in before the others intervened. In this part of the work, it seems that Fionn is an old man and the Fianna itself is failing. It takes nothing away from Eachtach as she was said to have "kept burning and swiftly slaying" those of the fort of Daolghus all the previous day and night.

"Fionn was seven half-years a curing that he got no wholeness, coming never among the goodly fiana from the beautiful house of Lughaidh."

This episode verges on the mythological but the idea that a woman could be filled with the spirit of a warrior and do great deeds of battle with a sword and an army is clearly illustrated in the tale. I suspect that the practice was to have women int the Irish Celtic battle groups who had demonstrated their martial abilities. In my own family, the woman are often close to six feet tall and of a strong build. I could see any of them doing battle with a sword or other weapon. They would be very daunting indeed if filled with the warrior spirit.

The way that the warrior spirit came into Eachtach was as "the spirit of manhood" while the "spirit of womanhood" left her. I hope to find where the "spirit of womanhood" is better quantified and exemplified in the Irish texts.

Searles

[skilly-nilly]

Since it is well known that ... there were women judges, physicians, ovates, ambassadors, priestesses, ect...perhaps some women's coming-of-age rites might have been a bit more broad in scope than simply "household" ...as were women's duties? Householding has it's honors, of course, but it isn't all that women are/were about.

Generally, coming of age rites have more to do with sexuality than with occupation. Mayday was a fertility celebration in which I daresay many Celtic youths of both sexes participated in coming of age rites...


Do you know of instances of where a coming of age ceremony was associated with being a judge, a physician, an ovate (sic), ambassador or priestess in Celtic traditions? I'd love to learn about these as well.

Searles

I think this is wilful misunderstanding-- a coming-of-age ceremony would not be associated with entering a profession. 'Coming of Age' (imo) implies 'sexually mature' and in a girl's case would not be associated with household skills but with menstruation. To say that a possible counterpart to the awarding of arms to a fledgling warrior is the demonstration of household skills is (imo) not a valid reflection of a society where far less gender distinction was made than many contemporaneous and even subsequent cultures.

There's clearly 2 things being considered here:

recognition of mature skills which is based on the actual skills without age (wasn't Cú very young?) or gender being prohibitive,

and sexual maturity which would be menstruation contrasted with (I have seen various markers cited) nocturnal emissions, chin hair, foam on your piss. The capability for conception is generally taken fairly seriously while male markers seem to come with rowdy horse-play.

As well, maturity and adult-place recognition as separate from sexual maturation is often dependant on other factors than just being grown-up (re 'Cattle Lords and Clansmen: The Social Structure of Early Ireland'
by Nerys Thomas Patterson ). I think it's short-sighted to cite 'awarding of arms' as a maturity marker as if there were nothing but warriors in the society.

[odubhain]

I think this is wilful misunderstanding-- a coming-of-age ceremony would not be associated with entering a profession. 'Coming of Age' (imo) implies 'sexually mature' and in a girl's case would not be associated with household skills but with menstruation. To say that a possible counterpart to the awarding of arms to a fledgling warrior is the demonstration of household skills is (imo) not a valid reflection of a society where far less gender distinction was made than many contemporaneous and even subsequent cultures.

There's clearly 2 things being considered here:

recognition of mature skills which is based on the actual skills without age (wasn't Cú very young?) or gender being prohibitive,

and sexual maturity which would be menstruation contrasted with (I have seen various markers cited) nocturnal emissions, chin hair, foam on your piss. The capability for conception is generally taken fairly seriously while male markers seem to come with rowdy horse-play.

As well, maturity and adult-place recognition as separate from sexual maturation is often dependant on other factors than just being grown-up (re 'Cattle Lords and Clansmen: The Social Structure of Early Ireland'
by Nerys Thomas Patterson ). I think it's short-sighted to cite 'awarding of arms' as a maturity marker as if there were nothing but warriors in the society.

To me from my studies of the texts and tales it seems clear that what was usually associated with "coming of age" among the ancient Irish was becoming a woman or becoming a man.

In the Triads, becoming a woman or womanhood are mentioned in connection with chastity, being well spoken and maintaining a household. These were also associated with marrying (for becoming a wife, maintaining a household and being a woman/mother, all were associated with these actions). This is not to say that women could not or did not become warriors, poets, judges or even Druids. It seems to imply that such were the exception rather than the norm.

In the tales about Fionn (one of which I've used to illustrate a point), manhood and warrior spirit are directly connected. The taking up of arms defined a man in a warrior society. I'm sure it would have defined a warrior woman as well but the idea of womanhood or womanliness would not be defined by arms in that society (or even our modern society).

The taking up of one's station in life would also have defined one as an adult in ancient Irish society. That could have been seen or done in graduating from training or studies or by demonstrating a skill that was recognized by all. Most often what we have in the tales about the ancient Irish is boys becoming men by taking up arms and girls becoming women by getting married or being of an age/skill to maintain a household.

I'm not arguing for this definition as being what is supposed to define womanhood or manhood but that it is what was defined and done in the surviving texts and stories. Becoming a woman was tied directly to being old enough to marry (14). Becoming a man was tied to being old enough to fight for one's family (17). If you think it shortsighted to present it thusly, then please provide examples from the tales and texts that support your statements (as I have).

Searles

[odubhain]

Here's what the Triads of Ireland have to say about becoming/being a woman or man:

¶180] Three steadinesses of good womanhood: keeping a steady tongue, a steady chastity, and a steady housewifery.

¶181] Three strayings of bad womanhood: letting her tongue,(telling stories) and [...] and her housewifery go astray.

¶233] Three whose spirits are highest: a young scholar after having read his psalms, a youngster who has put on man's attire, a maiden who has been made a woman.

The things that seem to stand out are that clothing is the mark of being a woman or a man. Womanhood is associated closely with households and marriage.

Searles

[odubhain]

Here's a link to an article on fosterage as it existed in ancient times (and with specific references to Ireland). Fosterage is important as it includes certain skills and requirements for a boy or a girl to "come of age" or to respectively be considered a man or a woman in the Brehon Law:

http://www.kent.ac.uk/anthropology/department/staff/parkes/Parkes2003.pdf

Here's one specfic quote from this article:

Tributary formations of cliental fosterage are more clearly evident in medieval
Ireland and Wales, which had traditional social orders of stratified clans
and clientship similar to those of the Hindu Kush and the Caucasus (Charles-
Edwards 1993:78–82; Patterson 1994). Allegiance fosterage in Celtic Gaul was
already apparent in Roman times, when Caesar’s observation that “Gauls do
not allow their sons to approach them openly until they have grown to an age
when they can bear the burden of military service” (Gallic War vi.19) exactly
matches Kovalevsky’s observations of paternal avoidance during fosterage
among the Ossetes. Early Irish practices of fosterage were also integrated within
an elaborate system of clientship, orchestrated through contractual “cattle
fiefs” (Gerriets 1983; Charles-Edwards 1993:337–63), specified in the Ancient
Laws of Ireland (ALI II:146–60; see Kelly 1989:86–91 for Corpus Iuris Hibernici
refs.). Fosterage from infancy is indicated by provisions for swaddling
clothes (ALI I:172), and there is precise specification of the educational duties
of the aite foster-father, according to the social rank of his dalta fosterling. Children
of low rank were to be instructed in basic tasks of herding and farming,
while noble children were taught martial and equestrian skills, together with
courtly accomplishments—chess-playing for boys, dressmaking and embroidery
for girls—up to an age of marriage (seventeen years for boys, fourteen
years for girls; ALI II:152–56, 176).

ALI above refers to _Ancient Laws of Ireland_. In general, the version that comes to us in the surviving texts and translations seem to imply that women had similar rights to men but were not fully invested in equal levels of status, rights or honor price. These laws did not say a woman could not achieve a high status but they seem to demonstrate a definite uphill bias against that. They were much better than other law systems at that time but not equal in all things. Land ownership, making contracts and standing before the judges are some areas where women could attain equality by their own efforts but these were not insured or promised to women as they were to men. To me this implies the same things in warfare and personal interactions.

Please note the skills itemized for girls and boys up to the age of marriage:

Noble class boys and girls were taught martial and equestrian skills with the boys also being taught things like chess playing while the girls were taught dressmaking and embroidery.

Children of lower rank were taught basic tasks of herding and farming.

The expectation seems to be that those who were of the noble class would be more involved in martial affairs while those of lower class were taught to produce foods and goods. The particulars and possible differences are not outlined in these laws to my current level of study and understanding. History seems to imply a male dominance in affairs of war and tribal conflicts while women are seen as mainly representing verbal skills and ruling the hearth (general impression).

ISTM that a thesis level article or two is required to add additional substance above modern or ancient gender bias to such things. As always, facts should trump opinions. I look forward to reading the thoughts and discoveries of scholars in this area of study.

Searles O'Dubhain

[odubhain]

In the Mabinogion, Lleu cannot be his own man until he receives a name, weapons and a wife. All of these occur with the assistance of his uncles Gwydion and Math overcoming the opposition of his mother Aranrhod:

http://www.mabinogi.net/math.htm

Obtaining a name, taking up weapons and seeking a wife are all parts of the Boyhood Deeds of Cú Chulainn in the episodes about Cullan's Hound, his taking up of arms from Conchubar and his courtship of Emer:

http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/HoundSlaying.html
http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/TakingArms.html
http://sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/cuch/lgc06.htm

In previous messages of this thread, articles have been provided where it was reported that Celts did not acknowledge their sons until they were old enough to do battle. This occurred at the same time that they "came of age" (at 17 for boys). I'm thinking that they put away their boyhood names at that time and assumed the name of their manhood. It's also said that they put of the clothing of children at that time and dressed like men.

There's no reason to think that women did not also have a parallel coming of age though it's not as well reported in the myths, stories and traditions. Being given an adult name, the tools/weapons of their trade/discipline, new adult clothing and marrying were all marks of coming to adulthood for Celtic children.

ISTM that one can also find similar parallels in the life of Fionn if one were only to look with clarity of mind and eye:

http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/f02.html

For that matter, there is also a striking similarity to the same types of events in the mythic life and legends of King Arthur: being named, receiving a sword and his marriage.

Searles

[skilly-nilly]

I would imagine .....Searles

As always, facts should trump opinions. I look forward to reading the thoughts and discoveries of scholars in this area of study.Searles O'Dubhain


You can "imagine" but the rest of everybody must supply facts, just the facts ma'am?


In citing "facts"

You discuss a woman who has battle frenzy as a result of her family being killed, which has really nothing to do with being recognized as adult:

The way that the warrior spirit came into Eachtach was as "the spirit of manhood" while the "spirit of womanhood" left her. Searles


I have no argument that 'womanhood' is partly defined by conception, gestation, and lactation (particularly in ancient times) because those are things men can't do. And that battle frenzy displaces gentler feelings; but the op was specifically asking about "coming of age". This, it seems to me, is about either 'sexual maturity' or 'recognition as an adult' depending on how you define the term and 'what happens when your family is killed' isn't part of the process.

You define the 'becoming adult'

Becoming a woman was tied directly to being old enough to marry (14). Becoming a man was tied to being old enough to fight for one's family (17).Searles

If you look back at my previous post, what I said was that these are two things. One is physical maturity (gender based) and the other is societal recognition of adult skills (non-gender based).

Again, I agree that households were largely run by women and housewifely skills were necessary but (gods hope) that a woman would be clearly recognized as physically mature before marrying.

It seems to me that that recognition of maturity was what the op was asking about, not about 14yr old child-brides.


Then you cite some triads about womanliness:

Here's what the Triads of Ireland have to say about becoming/being a woman or man:
¶180] Three steadinesses of good womanhood: keeping a steady tongue, a steady chastity, and a steady housewifery.

¶181] Three strayings of bad womanhood: letting her tongue,(telling stories) and [...] and her housewifery go astray.

¶233] Three whose spirits are highest: a young scholar after having read his psalms, a youngster who has put on man's attire, a maiden who has been made a woman.

The things that seem to stand out are that clothing is the mark of being a woman or a man. Womanhood is associated closely with households and marriage.
Searles

I disagree with your interpretation; I read this as 'man's clothes make the man', 'running a good house and not gossiping make a good wife' (no age or adult status-recognition implied), 'first sexual experience makes a girl happy', and 'Bible-reading pleases young scholars'.


I think that if you cite lots and lots your citations should be germane to the point.

The point is -when are you an adult- not -when can you marry or bear arms- . In modern society there is a big disconnect between those points. In Ancient Ireland recognition of adult status often had to do with inheritance---the Fianna were specifically defined as 'ambue' that is, 'cowless' and so status-less.

[odubhain]

You can "imagine" but the rest of everybody must supply facts, just the facts ma'am?

I've provided facts that you have chosen to ignore and have attempted to call imagination. You have provided no facts of your own in rebuttal.

It is not my loss that you have chosen to do this.

Searles

[zionwood]

And I appreciate the facts you have provided, O'Dubhain. They're very interesting, and some do provide insight into my question. Thank you for providing them.

[TomasFlannabhra]

Here's a rather informative article (http://www.clannada.org/culture_comingofage.php) on the 'coming-of-age' customs of the Gael provided by Clannada na Gadelica.

[Myrddyn Emrys]

For that matter, there is also a striking similarity to the same types of events in the mythic life and legends of King Arthur: being named, receiving a sword and his marriage.

Yes, there are similarities, but;

http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id45.html

Granted, this site uses Welsh Law from the 11th century and Arthur was (supposedly) from the 5th, but neither Arthurian Legend or 11th century Welsh Law had a boy "coming of age" at 17 years, it was 14. That was usually to leave his father's care and go under the tutelage of the local Lord, but still, a turning point from boy to man. Arthur was "named" at 14, by Merlin revealing his true parentage. Arthur also receives (some versions say the first) "Excalibur" at 14. If Arthur was born in 465CE, his "naming" and obtaining his (first?) sword would have been 479CE, possibly 480CE, if one goes by the sword being drawn from the stone at Easter rather than Christmas. With Uther being dead, Arthur's claiming of the sword would have "staked his claim" to his father's "kingship", but not necessarily having fully taken his father's place until he had proved himself as a "man" (during his 12 battles to bring peace to the land).

Arthur's "Twelve Battles" were between 485-96CE, with Badon Hill being in 496CE.

http://www.britannia.com/history/arthur/timearth.html

We only have evidence (from some of the tales) that he was wed to Guenivere sometime before Badon Hill, as she encouraged him to have the image of Mary on his sheild going into that battle. So, Arthur was wed sometime between his 20th and 30th year. Again, the tales give us a bit of a clue as from them we know Artur didn't marry Gwen until "peace" had (at least somewhat) been established...so, it is possible that Arthur married (and obtained his full Kingship, if we go by the information from Welsh Laws of the 11th century) around 28.

[odubhain]

In ancient Ireland, every part of life had its privileges as defined by law:

Here are the six stages of life:

náidendact - infancy
macdact – boyhood (I suppose that nidacht would be girlhood.)
gillacht - youth or puberty.
hóclachus - adolescence or becoming an adult.
sendacht - old age
díblidecht - decrepitude.

These are called "The Columns of Age."

In “Immacallam in Dá Thuradh” these are mentioned by Ferchertne in answer to the question “From whence do you come?”

When it is his turn to answer this question posed by Nede, Ferchertne replies that he has come down the columns of age (the coimgne or ancient wisdom, but also the five stages of a person's life: infancy, childhood, puberty, adulthood, elderhood). Each of these also has its associated wisdom and lessons.

In the book, The Wisdom of the Outlaw, Joseph Falaky Nagy discusses some of these “columns of age” relative to Finn’s boyhood. He shows how Finn leaves his fosterers (two women) along with his macdact (boyhood) when he has learned all they have to teach him. He leaves then dressed in animal skins and goes into a period of his life where he is a “gillie” (gillacht youth or puberty). He is variously an apprentice to a smith or a poet. He gains the wisdom of smithcraft in one case and the gift of imbas from cooking the Salmon of Wisdom for his teacher (inadvertently tasting it when he burns his thumb on a bubble in the fish’s skin).

Finn’s youth ends when he is identified through either his martial skill or his expertise in fidchell and affairs of martial and political art. He is then named Finn Mac Cumhal surrendering his boyhood name of Demne. Nagy discusses ideas of leaping over flames, cooking and other skills as kind of a “coming of age” in a few examples about Finn and Derg Corra. I’ve already mentioned Cú Chulainn’s boyhood experiences of a similar nature (he was Sétanta as a boy) . One episode that should be familiar to all is Cú jumping the bridge/void to Scathach’s camp. After he has done this he has sex with her daughter and so “comes of age.”

The elements of “coming of age” in Irish tradition involve training/studying under a foster/teacher, graduating and receiving a new name, having adventures (one of which is finding a mate or getting married). These rituals are not unlike the ones we go through today:

School – Graduation
Putting away nicknames
Joining the community through family, business or serving in the military
Receiving a title or rank
Getting married and starting a family

All of these experiences of growing up have rituals associated with them in modern life and I suspect the ancient Irish rituals to have been little different.


Searles

[zionwood]

all right, thanks, everyone!

[odubhain]

Here's a rather informative article (http://www.clannada.org/culture_comingofage.php) on the 'coming-of-age' customs of the Gael provided by Clannada na Gadelica.

Tracey's article is a good one. It expands on the themes I mentioned in my first reply in this thread. She picked up a great appreciation of Gaelic culture from her time in Nova Scotia and Cape Breton Island. Tracey also sings wonderful "mouth music."

Searles

[odubhain]

The ages of life among the fostered children seem to have been (Sanas Cormac):

'columns of age' i e. times (stages of human life), viz., infancy, boyhood, puberty, adolescence, old age, decrepitude.

In fosterage the periods were split into threes and seem to correspond to these ages (Ancient Laws of Ireland p. 186):

1 - 7 Infancy
7 - 12 Boyhood, Girlhood, Chikdhood
12-17 Boys - Puberty, Young Adult (teenager?)
12 - 14 Girls - Puberty, Marriageable

Searles

[Phi]

A lot of good discussion has come from the brief comment I made last week. I think that is good.

Searles, in answer to your request for sources, I must say that such a challenge does tend to limit conversation.


In regard to defending my statement that household tasks were not the only tasks of Celtic womanhood, I will simply supply some names. Those of us that are reasonably well-read on the subject of mythology and history of the Celts will perhaps recognize the names I will mention. However if you require a book title, page number, and author it will take a lot longer. Or if you are truly interested, you could actually put in the names to a search engine.
Brig Brugaid [ a Brehon famous for correcting her husband Sencha's (for which the Senchus Mor was named) judgement on rights of women...a brugaid has grade of ruling noble and twice the wealth of one, according to the Uriacecht Becc.)
Scota (slain in battle at Caherconree)
Creidne (warrior of the Fianna)
Credha (warrior daughter of Fionn Mac Cumhail)
Erni (personal warrior of Medb and treasure guardian)
Mughain Mor (warrior queen of Munster)
Etsine (warrior in the "Frenzy of Suibne"
Breifne (warrior recorded by the Dinnsenchus)
Nessa (warrior of Ulaidh, later queen of Ulaidh whose matronym Conchobar took)
Fedelm Noichrothach (granddaughter of Nessa, warrior)
Many unnamed ban-gaisgedaig, ban-feinnidh
Scathach, Morrigan, Agrona, Cymidei Cymeinfoll (war goddesses, mythological warriors)
Macha of Ulster (who cursed the Ulster warriors)
Nemhain (whose howling killed 100 Connaught warriors)
Medb (warrior queen/goddess/military commander)
Badb (who as crow/raven feeds on warriors/war, and predicts war or doom)
Scenmed (warrior sister of Emer)
Mis (fury of whom was legend: Fedilimid Mac Crimthainn(d.847) offered reward to any warrior who could capture her, but all declined except for a bard...)

Findbhair (druidess in Tain Bo Cuailgne)
Druidess community of Cluain Feart
Bodmall
Smirgat
Milucrah
Geal Ghossach
Fidelma
Sin
Most of these are legendary, ie mythological, figures. This does not invalidate them, however, but makes them even more important.
Why would a culture pass down a legend that has neither truth nor purpose, no value in training new generations? Especially a culture that so valued memory that it chose not to write, but to remember. Especially a culture that so valued truth.
ARCHAEOLOGY
Heroine of Vix (name unknown, but buried with great honor, including torc, chariot, jewels)
Warrior Couple and woman buried at Homichele Barrow in what is now Germany but was likely Celtic in 6th Century BCE (couple has fifty arrows and both male and female have a bow: adjacent chamber, woman is buried with her chariot and rich grave goods.)
Woman at Wetwang Slack (buried with chariot, grave goods)
LAW
Bretha Croilge text: (ben sues srutha coctha for cula:the woman who turns back the hand of war and rectaid geill : woman who takes/rules hostages)
Welsh law: arglewyddess: female cheiftain
HISTORY
377BC Macha Mong Ruadh (ruled all Ireland for 7 years after warring and winning this over Dithorba and Cymbaeth and their armies.)
Boudicca
Cartimandua
Onomaris warrior and leader of the Scordesi
Teuta Celto-Illyrian queen

From my notes on these subjects, much of this material comes from Celtic Women by Peter Beresford Ellis.

Just got started with historical references but gotta go have some lunch now. If you want more, there certainly is more.
I'll come back later and see what's up

[odubhain]

A lot of good discussion has come from the brief comment I made last week. I think that is good.

Searles, in answer to your request for sources, I must say that such a challenge does tend to limit conversation.


In regard to defending my statement that household tasks were not the only tasks of Celtic womabnhood, I will simply supply some names. Those of us that are reasonably well-read on the subject of mythology and history of the Celts will perhaps recognize the names I will mention. However if you require a book title, page number, and author it will take a lot longer. Or if you are truly interested, you could actually put in the names to a search engine.

I know there were some Celtic women who were warriors. I never said there weren't. I've looked long and hard into the sources years ago for them and had come up with a short list much like yours.

The topics being discussed were what were the coming of age rituals like? My remarks to date (and based on several sources) centered around the norms that have been reported in the surviving traditions and literature. If you have sources for these, then I'd love to see them.

My general impression regarding gender roles in Celtic society is that martial roles were normally filled by men but were not excluded to women. That's also the way it seems to be for Druids and others of the Aos Dana. Women were not excluded from these roles either but were not mentioned as often in the surviving tales and literature in those roles.

Requesting sources should not hinder substantial conversation and discussions at all. It should only serve as new building blocks for informed discussions and opinions. How could good information and knowledge do otherwise?

Searles O'Dubhain

[odubhain]

I thought I'd post excerpts from some of my earlier articles about the roles of women in Celtic society to better establish my attitude and approach on this topic for those who may not know me very well:

An excerpt from "The Celtic Women" - One of the Celtic Workshops I created on CompuServe in 1993 and 1994.

Celtic Workshop #15 - "The Celtic Women"

This workshop deals primarily with the role of Women in ancient Celtic life. I tried to give a feel for the position and the interrelationships of Women with Men during the early times. Women were much more "liberated" and powerful in Celtic society than they were in other European civilizations of the time and up until quite recently. This equality was due to the exercising of their own Power on the part of the Women IMVHO. It was not given to them, they demanded their rights and they earned them. This system of rights went all the way to the top of society from the bottom and included the Power to rule. Marriages and relationships were particularly equal and treated fairly by the Brehon laws.

Celtic women were many things: warriors, queens, mystics, prophets, poets, Druids, musicians and mothers. In all that they did, they matched or exceeded their men as they worked, loved, fought and embraced life in their joy at being themselves. The Celtic women we shall discuss tonight are those that lived before Christianity was placed about their necks like a yoke. I will tell you the tales of those noble Celtic Women, the women of ancient Ireland, Britain, Gaul, Scotland and Wales. Let us start with a quote from the Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus found in Nora Chadwick's book "The Celts":

"A whole troup of foreigners would not be able to withstand a single Gaul if he called his wife to his assistance who is usually very strong and with blue eyes; especially when, swelling her neck, gnashing her teeth, and brandishing her sallow arms of enourmous size, she begins to strike blows mingled with kicks, as if they were so many missles sent from the string of a catapult."

(2-15,O'Dubhain) It was the custom of Celtic women to go into battle alongside their men (a custom that lasted until around 700 CE in Ireland). Even when they were only performing a supporting role, as mentioned by Plutarch in a reference to a battle between the Cimbry and the Romans, they were very fierce. The Cimbric women were in the camp preparing a meal when the fleeing Cimbric men arrived persued by the Romans:

"Here the women met them, holding swords and axes in their hands. With hideous shrieks of rage they tried to drive back the hunted and the hunters. The fugitives as deserters, the pursuers as foes. With bare hands the women tore away the shields of the Romans or grasped their swords, enduring mutilating wounds. Their fierce spirit unvanquished to the end."

(2-15,O'Dubhain) Women were accorded a high status in ancient Ireland. They are commonly mentioned as filling the positions of Druids, poets, physicians, sages, and lawgivers. Even Amergin, the Bard, son of Mile, and chief Druid of the Gael asks for the aid of the wives of Breas and Buaigne to aid him and the Mileseans in reaching Eirinn against a Magical storm raised by the Tuatha de Danann. The high regard for women is also seen in the fact that many times a person might be referred to as the son or daughter of the mother rather than the father. The great king in the Tain of Ulster, Connor mac Nessa is an excellent example of this (with the wise advice of his mother, he is able to secure election as the King of Ulster.) The Picts even went so far as to pass inheritances through the female. This extended up to the ruling family which was matrilocal as well as matrilinear. It was not, however, matriarchal.

(2-15,O'Dubhain) The Brehon laws of early Ireland also insured women a near equally with men, though, at times, truly superior women forced the ancient Gaels to admit the superiority of women to men in many cases. Bridget, the lawgiver, Medb of Connacht, or Emer, wife of Cuchullain, are just a few examples of such superior women. In the Crith Gablach, a set of rules covering the priveledges of the noble classes, the right of every wife to be consulted on every subject by her husband is mandated. Women were considered to have an equal footing with men in regards to property acquired after their marriage. Voluntary consent of both was required to dispose of marriage property. The wife remained sole owner of any property she held prior to the marriage. Men were given preference for the inheriting of land but daughters were given coibche, marriage portion, in the form of gold, silver, animals or household items. If there were no sons, the daughter inherited all. If a woman held the land and did not go into battle as was required by law, she had to provide and pay for a warrior to go in her place.

(2-15,O'Dubhain) It was at the Synod of Tara in 697 CE that St. Adamnan established the Cáin Adamnan that exempted women from warfare. It is with the rise of the power of the Christian Church that the rights of women seem diminished in Irish history, but that is another story for another workshop. I suggest reading Mary Condren's book "The Serpent and the Goddess" for information on the oppression of women by the Christian Church. Tonight I want to tell the tales of heroic, brave and beautiful Celtic women!

( I went on to discuss Macha, Scáthach, Boudica, and Brighid as portraying these kinds of roles for women in Celtic society.)

Searles O'Dubhain - Mar 13 1999, 3:00 am Newsgroups: alt.religion.druid

"Chaith seisean an chéad sheacht mbliana dá shaol ag foghlaim draíochta agus gintlíoocta i Sí Charn Breachnatan faoin MBANDRAOI Banbhuana iníon le Deargdhualach."
- Forbhais Droma Dámhgháire, the Book of Lismore -

In Lebhar Gabála, Bé Chuille is identified as a sorceress or druidess (LG 314, 345, 369); also in Keating's _History of Ireland_, Volume I:xi:218-219.

Birog was a Bandraoi who helped Cian to visit Ethné, daughter of Balor, thereby causing the inception and birth of Lugh.

According to James Bonwick, Cormac's Glossary references a female Druid known as Serb, daughter of Scath of Connaught. He also gives these names for Bandariothe: Geal Chossach of Inisoven, Donnegal; Milucradh from Loch Sliabh Gullin. He also says that such places as Kildare, Tuam and Cluan-Feart may have originally been retreats for Bandraiothe (though this is certainly open to conjecture). I suspect that a reading of "The Druids" by Peter Berresford Ellis would provide better references for female Druids.

Now there are also those who are mentioned as being Banfilidh or Banfáidh, such as Fedelm in "Táin Bó Cuailgne," or Scáthach in the "Wooing of Emer." These are clearly distinguished from the Bandraoi in the tales. Though they are not cited as often as their male counterparts, the female Druids clearly do exist in the Irish traditions and tales as Bandraoithe, Banfilidh or Banfáidh, which corresponds to the three divisions of the Draoithe that you've mentioned: Draoithe, Filidh, Fáidh.

I suspect that the smaller (apparent) percentages of women to men in these areas may have been due to a social bias, as I'm inclined to believe that the abilities cross gender lines equally. I suspect that in matters of court function and etiquette that the male centric society would have demanded more exceptional abilities from Bandraoithe, in much the same way that modern business seems to make the same demands of women.

Searles O'Dubhain - Aug 29 1999, 2:00 am

There were women's ways and men's ways among the Celts. This does not mean that they were completely segregated or that a woman could not engage in what was normally considered a "Man's way." It's pretty much the same situation today, though not as blatant. I'm not for segregation except where it promotes fairness (since, on the average, women have the physical potential to be 90% the strength of the average man) . This means that some women are physically superior to many men. One need only watch a professional volleyball competition to be impressed by this relationship. If I consider sports today on a collegic and professional level, I see segregation for fairness. This does not mean that women and men should be completely segregated, hence there are opportunities like the space program and an increasing role for women in the military. Women who think they can compete in the sports should have that opportunity IMO. In this, I think I'm in line with what our ancestors considered. If one reads the tales, then about one warrior in a hundred was a woman, unless it was a matter of an attack on the entire tribe. In that case, the entire tribe fought with whatever weapons they had (both men and women). As one escapes from physical matters and goes into mental and spiritual matters, the playing fields become much closer, until there is no reason to distinguish a man's involvement from a woman's.

Searles O'Dubhain - Mar 15 2002, 7:25 pm

I think that Druids valued the mind and spirit above physical or social characteristics. As such, I think the essence of a person remains the same no matter what their sex may or may not be. Does an idea or a philosophy involve sexual orientation? Let that be your guide in your search for meaning in Draíocht is my advice.There are three cauldrons within every person. It how they are oriented and aligned to the ways of being that determines a Druid.

I hope that these brief quotes from articles I have written in the past help to clarify my opinions and ideas about the roles of women in Celtic society. Often, I encounter people on message boards and forums who do not know me and who project their expectations onto my words rather than reading what they actually are saying.

Searles O'Dubhain

[odubhain]

Here's a post I made last year on Mysticwicks (in a thread titled: Feminism & Religion) to further clarify my attitudes about gender and how it (and attitudes about it) shapes our society:

Too often I see people battling for their right to express and be themselves in social structures that oppose that individuality and also that tends to suppress one group or another. Often what happens is those who are most attentive to the details of power usage and influence come out on top with the danger of either becoming like the source of the problem or becoming even more polarized as the source of the repression. I'd like to hopefully discover some forms of dialog and discussion that allows everyone to realize a society that encourages the many gifts with which each of us are born (at least in potential).

I'm also interested in discussing the ways that the female and male mind differ (if they actually do and science seems to indicate this). In my own short life, I've seen where a person's strengths and weaknesses tend to change who a person originally was. By this I mean that those who are incredibly smart sometimes avoid emotional growth by using the intellect. Those who are physically gifted don't always improve their intellectual and nurturing sides because everything comes to them with ease and without having to think. Those who enjoy or who are emotionally talented modify the world around them with their own unique gifts.

The mix of genders, skills, gifts, orientation and focus of attention makes the world a very dynamic and sometimes explosive place. Communication across all barriers and along all the gift ways and waves seems to be called for but represents a risk to the ego in most people (me included). I sometimes think that there should be emotional and personal perspective training given publically along with arts, science, crafts and technology training as we develop. Parents traditionally have done this but since the Industrial Revolution, it seems that the State is preempting this role in the family.

I'm concerned about the ways that the pendullum swings as society and people make adjustments for the lack in the ways that current social systems allow a person to be a person. It can easily get completely outside the boundaries of moderation and nurturing no matter who thinks they have the reins of life in their hands.

There are worlds full of individuals who have no(t) been allowed to contribute their talents to the world because of the way our civilizations and cultures have evolved. I hope the corrections are more emotionally, mentally and spiritually aware rather than the same-old-same-old with a different set of clothing.

Now, back to writing about truth, memes, magic, psychology, customs and teachings of the Druids.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Phi]

I know there were some Celtic women who were warriors. I never said there weren't. I've looked long and hard into the sources years ago for them and had come up with a short list much like yours.

"Looking into the sources" for the names of women warriors or of any of the professions will certainly result in a relatively short list. The "sources" were written after patriarchial religion came in to determine what was and was not written, what was and was not important. What was important to the ancient Celtic society (and thus to that society where druid and druidess were the intelligentsia, females and males were warriors, ect) was not written during the times prior to the patriarchial influence. Thus to find a list as long as that which I only began before lunch...in fact to find any such references at all...shows that the norm for women was indeed changed greatly by the new concepts coming from Mediterranean areas. And the norm for pagan-era Celtic women was vastly different from that of women of the Mediterranean world, becoming less and less different as the Mediterranean influence waxed.

The topics being discussed were what were the coming of age rituals like? My remarks to date (and based on several sources) centered around the norms that have been reported in the surviving traditions and literature. If you have sources for these, then I'd love to see them.

Surviving traditions and literature would include that in the legends and sagas, I suppose?
On the Subject and for the questioner:
Fosterage seems to be a part of the coming of age rituals, involving legal contracts and monetary considerations for the training of youths both genders by foster parents with whom they would reside while in "fosterage/school." Fosterage of girls was more expensive than that for boys. Coming of age might include the "graduation" from fosterage and thus "graduation" from the education of the fostered child. There were some "colleges" mentioned in occasional texts also. Graduation is part of our current coming of age rites, perhaps it was so even then.


My general impression regarding gender roles in Celtic society is that martial roles were normally filled by men but were not excluded to women. That's also the way it seems to be for Druids and others of the Aos Dana. Women were not excluded from these roles either but were not mentioned as often in the surviving tales and literature in those roles.

My thinking is that the Aos Dana was rather a gender equal-opportunity society for persons demonstrating special intelligence, or seering gifts, or whose parents were of the intelligentsia. It was not just a caste, it was a need for the survival of the people. A seer-mind is a terrible thing to waste...

My general impression is that martial roles were filled by those persons who excelled in martial arts.( Most likely males would show more interest and proclivity for martial arts more often than women, who seem from their early years to show greater proclivity for the mental or spiritual arts.)
Not until AD 697 were laws passed in Ireland forbidding women to become warriors or military commanders at the Synod of Birr (proposed by an abbot named Adomnan.) AD697!
Now why would there need to be such a law if women warriors were so uncommon?
Celts without undue mediteranean religious influences were in control of Celts for a long time before AD 697. Brehon law was first codified in AD 430 or so, with Patrick included, so already by 430 there was a lot of the Mediterranean influence mentioned. Legend says that in 714 BC Ollamh Fodla codified Irish laws and founded the Festival (Feis)of Tara and the gatherings to discuss and change the laws as needed: they weren't in stasis but were able to be changed...
However the Ollamh Fodla law system codification is not written in a source that I can quote and give page number...

However, the role of woman as householder and tender of the homefires was entirely honorable and significant in and of itself. I do not mean to disparage that role for either gender. Just to say that roles were not divided in the Celtic world in exactly the same ways as in the Celtic-Christian world.


Requesting sources should not hinder substantial conversation and discussions at all. It should only serve as new building blocks for informed discussions and opinions. How could good information and knowledge do otherwise?

I do love to get new sources from the discussions here, and I do agree that sources are sometimes a great building block.

But other times I don't understand the need for it, as it does slow down the free exchange of personal Imbas and ideas. We are not students in a class but adults holding conversation.

Sometimes we get too caught up in our own cultural need for proofs. And I find it interesting that if it can be cited by page number and paragraph it is "true," while if it cannot it is "false." Thus, since it isn't written in a qualified source I suppose the dogwood outside my window isn't really blooming...(Oh magic! Now that I have keyed it in here my tree is actually really blooming... if you consider me and MW a qualified source!)

Druidical traditions were those of memory, thus the sagas and legends are the histories and were passed down verbally by those who made a science of memory and utilized poetry and song as memnonic help.

If this need for "proof" and "citation" of every truth, is true for any of you reading here, do yourselves a favor and choose another calling than Druidry: for the Druids didn't write things down too often, but passed things down through spoken word, through rhyming word, through song.

Insofar as I am able, I will speak truthfully. Sometimes I even rhyme. Hear or refuse to hear. My sources are my memory of all that I read, sometimes my notes (I am still not through training myself to use memory only.)
Do you (speaking here to anyone...not just you Searles) believe in Imbas, in ancestors, in the Otherworld? Or are you just interested outsiders looking for scholarly information for a college thesis? Personally mine was done long ago.


Source: Phi, page 2 of this particular discussion...(Feel free to quote me, but be sure to use the reference!:smileroll)


Searles O'Dubhain

BTW Searles, I enjoyed reading through your posts since lunch. Please relax and do not take personally my remarks. No need to defend or attack. There is no either/or here now. I greatly respect your knowledge and information, and have visited your Summerland from time to time with delight. A good discussion clears the mind though.

[odubhain]

BTW Searles, I enjoyed reading through your posts since lunch. Please relax and do not take personally my remarks. No need to defend or attack. There is no either/or here now. I greatly respect your knowledge and information, and have visited your Summerland from time to time with delight. A good discussion clears the mind though.

Thanks Phi. I enjoy good and well supported discussions. That's how we all learn things and stretch our minds at the same time.

Searles