the deemphasis of sexuality in Wicca

[Nox_Mortus]

I've been thinking a lot about this lately, a lot of modern books on Wicca seem to strongly deemphasize the sexual side of it. I think this may have a lot to do with trying to clean up Wiccas image in the media especially since Wicca (or at least a very watered down facsimile of it) has become so popular with teens. Also, I think this is part of the general trend of trying to make Wicca more mainstream, as things like the Great Rite probably wouldn't be considered generally acceptable.

I personally think that this is a very bad thing as sexuality is in my view a very important element of Wicca (after all our most important ritual is a sexual one) and should not be treated as some sort of minor apocryphal thing. What do you guys think?

[Myzterio]

Hrm. I'm not all that knowledgeable about Wicca, but I do know that one religion shouldn't be judged on basis of another; and that includes not looking at Wicca from a Christian point of view. Therefore, yes, sexuality should be included in Wicca. That isn't to say that teenagers should be encouraged to engage in sex-based rituals, though, or at least only as far as is natural (that is, let them take it as far as they want to, if you ask me), and lawful.

[Nox_Mortus]

Hrm. I'm not all that knowledgeable about Wicca, but I do know that one religion shouldn't be judged on basis of another; and that includes not looking at Wicca from a Christian point of view. Therefore, yes, sexuality should be included in Wicca. That isn't to say that teenagers should be encouraged to engage in sex-based rituals, though, or at least only as far as is natural (that is, let them take it as far as they want to, if you ask me), and lawful.

I agree with this, and as for teens, the general rule for most traditional covens is that you have to be a legal adult to join in most cases any way. I would also say that if they aren't comfortable with it then maybe they should look at other paths. That being said it would be very un-Wiccan to try to get people to participate in rituals they are uncomfortable with.

[Myzterio]

Very true, but there's people who think they know better how things are supposed to be done in all circles. :)

ETA: 'circles'-pun not intended.

[Lunacie]

I've been thinking a lot about this lately, a lot of modern books on Wicca seem to strongly deemphasize the sexual side of it. I think this may have a lot to do with trying to clean up Wiccas image in the media especially since Wicca (or at least a very watered down facsimile of it) has become so popular with teens. Also, I think this is part of the general trend of trying to make Wicca more mainstream, as things like the Great Rite probably wouldn't be considered generally acceptable.

I personally think that this is a very bad thing as sexuality is in my view a very important element of Wicca (after all our most important ritual is a sexual one) and should not be treated as some sort of minor apocryphal thing. What do you guys think?

It's probably true that sexuality isn't as important in Eclectic Wicca as it is in Traditional Wicca. Even though my own group is Eclectic we perform the symbolic Great Rite at every ritual we do. We are celebrating the fertility of the earth by doing this even more than we are celebrating the sexual union between the god and goddess. Is this a bad thing? I don't think it is, it's just a somewhat different perspective of the Great Rite.

[Nox_Mortus]

It's probably true that sexuality isn't as important in Eclectic Wicca as it is in Traditional Wicca. Even though my own group is Eclectic we perform the symbolic Great Rite at every ritual we do. We are celebrating the fertility of the earth by doing this even more than we are celebrating the sexual union between the god and goddess. Is this a bad thing? I don't think it is, it's just a somewhat different perspective of the Great Rite.

I don't think it is a bad thing, but then you get into the question of how far can you deviate from traditional Wicca and still cal it Wicca debate, and I think here specifically is important since traditional Wicca puts a great deal of importance on sexuality.

[Lunacie]

I don't think it is a bad thing, but then you get into the question of how far can you deviate from traditional Wicca and still cal it Wicca debate, and I think here specifically is important since traditional Wicca puts a great deal of importance on sexuality.

I can't be sure, but from my reading Gardner's group used symbolic sex as often as the real thing - maybe sometimes both. Symbolic during the ritual and the real thing after the ritual. Some people* are so hung up on "how far can you deviate from the traditional practices and still call it Wicca" that they get really annoying to those of us who know what we are doing, and why we are doing it, and that every tradition (maybe even every group) does it just a tiny bit different.


*generic "some people", not directed at Nox or anyone in particular

[jetpiston]

When you get down to it, Wicca is a fertility cult, and how do humans reproduce? Sex.

[Lunacie]

When you get down to it, Wicca is a fertility cult, and how do humans reproduce? Sex.

Nature herself is fertile, and there are many way of reproducing. Sex is just one of them. If the focus were to be only on sex as a means of reproduction we'd be like the Catholics in more ways than just candles and incense and chanting. :lol:

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Well...

There are many here , who have idealogical differences
with me...however , I should care to add something to
the cauldron here , so to say...

A part of the Faery Tradition I teach...( not the same as
other variants )...Is the word , title , and way...

Wieckaan...

We could argue , of course , if this word , people , or
way , ever existed...but that is not why I am posting...

I am trying to bring some understanding to the original
poster's question...and , in the process , confirm both the
sexual , and non - sexual approaches , at least regarding
the Great Rite...

Those who have looked into what I do , have an inkling
at least , of the symbol - letter - number code , utilized
by our Tradition , to create , and confirm , reality...

Including retual...so , given that , I wish to bring just
one formula from the Tradition to the table...which , as
a total sum number value , adds to what we call , a dual
Mother , and dual Father column arrangement , with
boundary runes...

We can have one Mother column of symbols up , one down...
same with the Father columns...we call this arrangement , the
"As Above , So Below" principle...or Mother Earth , Father Sky ,
Mother Sky , Father Earth arrangement...

The total sum , equals 2212...so , the formula...

Runes For Wieckaan Great Rite Retual : Kaen - Yar = 2212

( Each word here , having a number value )...so the word
formula , equals the number value for our columns...

Thus the union of feminine , and masculine principles...

Now , Kaen - Yar , most would know today , as the runes ,
Kaenaz , and Jera...

If you note the shapes , in the attachment , I should care to
bring your attention to some meanings...

Kaen = Light , Yar = Seasonal Cycle...

Kaen = Passion / Heat ,Yar = Fertile Season...

Kaen = Torch , Yar = Marriage Heaven Earth...

Yet in shape...Kaen being the man's straight body , with an
erect Lingam...( invert rune )Yar , being the open woman's Yoni...

Yet again...there are many "fertility" statues , with these
shapes , as well fashion and sexual illustrations...

Do you even note , in the combined shapes...Yar , over Kaen...

The shape of someone standing , one leg straight , one forward...

Hands , behind neck , or on hips ?

We have seen these figurines , or statues , in differing cultures...

Or seen our lovers stand like this...

Yet again , the Yar rune , or Jera , is the wreath , placed on the
pole of light , Kaen , in many old traditional villages...symbolizing
the wheel of the year , or , fertility...

My point is this...many layers of meaning to these symbols ,
which may be combined in many , many ways , to create varying
traditions , and retuals...even within the same single tradition ,
such as "modern" Wicca...

Yet , the basis is the same...perception being the key...

You see...in our Tradition , of the Wieckaan...there are 77 levels
of meaning to each symbol...thus , Kaen having 77 , Yar having
77...

That gives us 77 squared , different ways of percieving the two
symbols , which are our symbols for the Great Rite...

Two other things...

One...when I invert a Mother column , leaving the Father column
upright...which has many implications...two rune pairs , line up ,
to produce these words...( eight symbols , each column )

Kaen - Dea

Ret - Aerr

Which become...

Neak - Aed

Ter - Rrea

Neakaed ( on ) Terrrea...Skyclad , anyone ?

Lastly...the sum of our single Mother , single Father columns...
one each...equals 994...

Perfect Love , Perfect Trust = 994

As does :

Wietch's Book Of Shadows = 994


Hmmm...perhaps there are , as Lunacie said...many ways of
percieving these things...:lol:

( hope this was not too hard to read , Lunacie...)

[Against The Tide]

I agree. Its as though sex has become a shameful thing. Even for established couples - most books tend to skimp on that subject, which as a follower of tantric practices I think is a real shame as sex is one of the most beautiful things we can ever hope to do.

But imagine how much trouble it would be for an author if they wrote books that young, promiscuous teens used as a scapegoat when they were found give ummmm love freely? Better the author downplay that aspect of the religion, not for their own reputation, but the credibility of the entire religion. The media is just itching to print headlines like ' Wicca recruits young teens for satanic sex rituals' and all that tripe.

[la tortuga]

I agree. Its as though sex has become a shameful thing. Even for established couples - most books tend to skimp on that subject, which as a follower of tantric practices I think is a real shame as sex is one of the most beautiful things we can ever hope to do.

But imagine how much trouble it would be for an author if they wrote books that young, promiscuous teens used as a scapegoat when they were found give ummmm love freely? Better the author downplay that aspect of the religion, not for their own reputation, but the credibility of the entire religion. The media is just itching to print headlines like ' Wicca recruits young teens for satanic sex rituals' and all that tripe.

Yes, I agree to this. I can definitely see some mother finding a book about Wicca in her child's possession and using it as a reason for his or her "promiscuousness". However, I see it as a definite double-edged sword. It's partially the fault of the parent for not keeping tabs on their child's life (although my sister is sixteen and is quite sneaky, and I feel my mother is far too harsh on her trying to figure out what's going on anyway, etc, etc) and yet it is the fault of the child for not telling his or her parents about their interest in Wicca and the like. This is because of the parents' perceived lack of understanding blah, blah, blah, blah I could go on with THIS forever... but one key thing I really honestly believe with all of my heart is that the teenage years are not the proper ones for true religious experimentation. I, myself, am no exception. Things are too turbulent in your life at that point to really know that your questioning of your place in the universe and the answer you find are going to suit you and be the best for you. There is a huge difference between being interested and reading up on it and doing the research... in comparison to buying ONE book just and going ahead with it. This, I believe is not only the mistake of youngsters but also that of people of any age.

To respond to the OP... yes, I have recognized that there has been a significant amount of content simply left out of books and resources that are available about the sexual aspect of Wicca. Many resources I've come across simply refer to the Great Rite in the symbolic way, which isn't bad, but there's honestly so much more to that that is just cut out in favor of promoting an honorable image.

It's a shame that, culturally, sexuality has been outcast, rejected, and denied to a point that mentioning sexuality in a way that is not negative or threatening is perceived as seductive and immoral.

[jetpiston]

Nature herself is fertile, and there are many way of reproducing. Sex is just one of them. If the focus were to be only on sex as a means of reproduction we'd be like the Catholics in more ways than just candles and incense and chanting. :lol:We're talking about Wicca here, yes? Wicca specifically celebrates the union of the male and the female and the fruitfulness that comes from that union. In Wicca, that's where the whole thing starts. Wiccan ritual doesn't mimic the asexual reproduction of a planarian because that is not how we humans do it. We do it by having sex, and through sympathetic magic (plunging a phallic athame into a womb shaped cup, or even engaging in 'the Great Rite' or whatever) we encourage the rest of the world to be fruitful also.

The problem is that people assume that sexuality equals promiscuity and/or immorality.

Jet Piston
3* Gard.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Jetpiston...

I , for one , do understand your stance...

However , let us for a moment , approach it on planes
of consciousness...the physical , sacred sexual act , in a
mgieckal context , may be utilized , and often is , as a
way of grounding the mgieckal current , into the physical
plane of existence...

If that is the intent of a retual , then fine , and good...

What if the working is for mental , or astral planes ?

Then the symbolic methodology would be more applicable ,
to leave the current to operate on that plane...

It is my belief , understanding , and experience , this is so...

Have I had sex , within the circle ?

Yes , most definitely , and specifically with intent to ground
the current...and fluids of male and female , were absorbed
into the earth...purposefully...

I do feel there are differing approaches , due to need , as is
applicable for the moment...

That is perhaps where we diverge...otherwise...I agree...

[PrincessKLS]

Wicca becoming popular with teens? As far as I know it's always been a fascination with the rebellious occult among teenagers, especially in bible belt America.

[Nox_Mortus]

Wicca becoming popular with teens? As far as I know it's always been a fascination with the rebellious occult among teenagers, especially in bible belt America.


Only since a lot of the really fluffy books started coming out in the early-mid 90s, and then also that movie the Craft and all that helped. Then it kind of died out a little right as I was getting into it then Harry Potter and simmilar things came along and sort of jump started it again (actually I think it was less Harry Potter and more Christian fundies bashing Harry Potter)

ETA:
If you read most any book about Wicca from before say 1990 (that is actually written by Wiccans and not wacko fundies) you will notice that they tend to approach issues like ethics and sexuality much differently than most newr books do.

[PrincessKLS]

Oh yes, the rise of the Christian fundies while Bush is in office :lol:

[Lunacie]

We're talking about Wicca here, yes? Wicca specifically celebrates the union of the male and the female and the fruitfulness that comes from that union. In Wicca, that's where the whole thing starts. Wiccan ritual doesn't mimic the asexual reproduction of a planarian because that is not how we humans do it. We do it by having sex, and through sympathetic magic (plunging a phallic athame into a womb shaped cup, or even engaging in 'the Great Rite' or whatever) we encourage the rest of the world to be fruitful also.

The problem is that people assume that sexuality equals promiscuity and/or immorality.

Jet Piston
3* Gard.

If you're arguing with what I wrote, then I don't get the distinction you're making. A lot of Wiccan ritual is "sympathetic magic", including the Great Rite. Whether it's done with a man and a woman having sex, or by the symbolic use of an athame and a chalice/cauldron. As I said, it all relates to the general fruitfulness of Nature herself.

[jetpiston]

Jetpiston...

I , for one , do understand your stance...

However , let us for a moment , approach it on planes
of consciousness...the physical , sacred sexual act , in a
mgieckal context , may be utilized , and often is , as a
way of grounding the mgieckal current , into the physical
plane of existence...

If that is the intent of a retual , then fine , and good...

What if the working is for mental , or astral planes ?

Then the symbolic methodology would be more applicable ,
to leave the current to operate on that plane...

It is my belief , understanding , and experience , this is so...

Have I had sex , within the circle ?

Yes , most definitely , and specifically with intent to ground
the current...and fluids of male and female , were absorbed
into the earth...purposefully...

I do feel there are differing approaches , due to need , as is
applicable for the moment...

That is perhaps where we diverge...otherwise...I agree... I'm not sure that there is that much of a divergence. Perhaps just that I am speaking of very specific ideas.

[Nox_Mortus]

If you're arguing with what I wrote, then I don't get the distinction you're making. A lot of Wiccan ritual is "sympathetic magic", including the Great Rite. Whether it's done with a man and a woman having sex, or by the symbolic use of an athame and a chalice/cauldron. As I said, it all relates to the general fruitfulness of Nature herself.


The point is that whether symbolic or not it still has a sexual undercurrent, which presently is being ignored by a lot of modern writers and practitioners, which is really the whole issue here.

[Lunacie]

Jetpiston...

I , for one , do understand your stance...

However , let us for a moment , approach it on planes
of consciousness...the physical , sacred sexual act , in a
mgieckal context , may be utilized , and often is , as a
way of grounding the mgieckal current , into the physical
plane of existence...

If that is the intent of a retual , then fine , and good...

What if the working is for mental , or astral planes ?

Then the symbolic methodology would be more applicable ,
to leave the current to operate on that plane...

It is my belief , understanding , and experience , this is so...

Have I had sex , within the circle ?

Yes , most definitely , and specifically with intent to ground
the current...and fluids of male and female , were absorbed
into the earth...purposefully...

I do feel there are differing approaches , due to need , as is
applicable for the moment...

That is perhaps where we diverge...otherwise...I agree...

I agree, rather a good explanation. :smile:

[jetpiston]

If you're arguing with what I wrote, then I don't get the distinction you're making. A lot of Wiccan ritual is "sympathetic magic", including the Great Rite. Whether it's done with a man and a woman having sex, or by the symbolic use of an athame and a chalice/cauldron. As I said, it all relates to the general fruitfulness of Nature herself.The post I was replying to seems to suggest that there is something wrong with the sexual component of Wiccan practice, i.e.,
If the focus were to be only on sex as a means of reproduction we'd be like the Catholics in more ways than just candles and incense and chanting.I was simply pointing out that sexual fertility would seem to be one of the most basic facets of Wicca, as most Wiccan ritual is at it's heart a reenactment of creation, usually specifically the sexual act (knife, meet chalice, chalice, meet knife). In other words, it seems that sex as a means of reproduction already is, and always has been, the main focus. This is not to say that Circles are, or should be, sexual playgrounds, or that there aren't other ways. Far from it. But the creative or generative force behind Wiccan practice would seem to be based on the male plus female equals something new formula sometimes known as sex because it mimics the way we do it in 'real life'.

Jet

[Lunacie]

No, I was saying that for the Catholics it's simply about human reproduction. As you said, in Wicca it goes beyond just representing nature, the Great Rite inspires nature through sympathetic magic. Similar to the way some Wiccans believe the rituals actually help to turn the wheel of the year.

[PrincessKLS]

Are there some old, not-watered down books on Wicca?

[Lunacie]

You could look around for any of the books that Gardner himself wrote.
Or Doreen Valiente books. Or "Drawing Down the Moon" by Margot Adler.

I'm sure BenG can recommend other books with solid information.

[Nox_Mortus]

Are there some old, not-watered down books on Wicca?

A Witches Bible by Janet and Stewart Farrar is very good, albeit somewhat feminist, and it's views on homosexuals are very dated.
Bucklands Complete Book of Witchcraft while pretty basic is also pretty good.

[Lunacie]

:doh2:
Uncle Bucky's Big Blue Book... of course.

[Ben Gruagach]

Personally I think a lot of the puritan attitudes about sex that are showing up in mainstream Wicca are a result of so many books on Wicca being written by Americans. I tend to find the attitudes about sex are not as watered down among British, Canadian, Australian, or other Wiccan authors.

And while I do agree that sex is an important part of Wicca I think it's also important to remember that the Great Rite and the idea of sex and polarity are symbolic and not the "real thing" which is the mystery of Divine fertility/creativity/abundance. Let's not mistake the roadmap for the journey itself.

And in addition to the books that were already mentioned, I highly recommend "Lid Off the Cauldron" by Patricia Crowther and "Fifty Years of Wicca" by Frederic Lamond for insight regarding Gardnerian Wicca in particular. And Raven Grimassi's books are also pretty good for presenting core Wicca.

[Lunacie]

You'd think by now I would remember that you always recommend Fred Lamond - someday I'm going to have to see if I can get ahold of that book myself.

[Lupabitch]

When you get down to it, Wicca is a fertility cult, and how do humans reproduce? Sex.

Sex =/= universally heterosexual.

Or are gays and lesbians, as well as infertile and deliberately childfree people not capable of any type of fertility?

What about the fertility of artistic creativity? Or the fertility of a good garden? Or of ideas and inventions? Unless you want to take everything literally, fertility has a much wider definition than heterosexual sex.

[jetpiston]

Sex =/= universally heterosexual.

Or are gays and lesbians, as well as infertile and deliberately childfree people not capable of any type of fertility?

What about the fertility of artistic creativity? Or the fertility of a good garden? Or of ideas and inventions? Unless you want to take everything literally, fertility has a much wider definition than heterosexual sex.Perhaps I haven't been clear. Wicca has nothing to do with sexual orientation. It is a system that mimics the observed natural phenomenon of the majority of European animals, including humans, of having sex and then having something miraculous happen: new life from old. It doesn't matter who you love or what your state of reproductive fertility is. What matters is whether or not the you are drawn to honor the Gods of the Wica and to turn the wheel through their method.


Jet Piston

[Ben Gruagach]

Perhaps I haven't been clear. Wicca has nothing to do with sexual orientation. It is a system that mimics the observed natural phenomenon of the majority of European animals, including humans, of having sex and then having something miraculous happen: new life from old. It doesn't matter who you love or what your state of reproductive fertility is. What matters is whether or not the you are drawn to honor the Gods of the Wica and to turn the wheel through their method.


Jet Piston

Sex is a symbol, though, and is not the Mystery itself. Insisting that heterosexual sex is the point mistakes the symbol for what it symbolizes.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I must be way out in right field here. For it seems the whole content of the "Great Rite" has shifted from what I was taught that it dealt with and pertained to.

I was always taught that the rite was the actual final point of balance between the forces of creation. The point when male and female energies where in balance and the spark of creation was obtainable. A point where the two halves of a whole are for a brief moment re-connected. Where two beings may actually touch upon the place where energy is devine and both are part devine and part human (dealing with humans of course).

From an eastern perspective the point where the kundalini has risen and both experience the unique union of energy. A point where the vessel is both male and female, can experience the harmony of universal balance.

The physical act is only important to the extent that it is the dance that is performed to align the energies. The point where the energy lies in balance, where both are set to receive and give of themselves.

In some tantric texts it talks of perfect balance and union without penetration. Where hand upon face and union of breathing creates the balance and union without the actual spark of creation being present. But in that union the joining is to bring both halves together to experience the fulness of the whole.

To me it's not the carnal or animalist drive. Of the kingdom of animals man is the only one that may join for the creation of life or the union of physical pleasure. Where the Great Rite was used for the creation of union I think over time it has slipped into the realm of union for physical pleasure only.

For some I think that factor is why the specialness of the rite has been allowed to slip or be dropped. I think it will join the old fertility rites of showing how high the crops should grow and the abundance of the land was wanted. The loss of our "Personal" charge of creation upon the land that supported us. The point where our collective creation energy was aligned with the greater global creation.

From another perspective, I think the sexuality of man has become more of a trigger than the purpose of the rite. In an earlier response one made mention to lesbian or gay joinings, in my opinion their is no great rite joining for they as man on man or woman on woman are incapable of creating that union. Even where one half to assume the opposite position they could not create the spark of creation.

Yes they could be consumed by the physical or carnal facet of the act but never create the perfect balance of energy to cause creation to occur. However, I do think in a coven or circle experience they may experience the tantric union of global energy and known the balance of it. Perhaps even know the creation of the conditions for "Creative Spark" to form as the greater male and female energies combined within the confines of the circle.

I do think in that instance they would be joined on the global union for the creative energy could be feed to woman to create and give birth or like the old fertility rites have the energy feed into the ground to start the cycle of conception.

But then that is a different story..... one of corn dollies, dances of blood and perhaps a ride or two on the besoom.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Just a quick note :

In the Obri - Runic code system...by number value
of the words...letter = number...

Lord And Lady = Masculine And Feminine = Control / Respect

As well..."I Am Balanced Energy"...

Just a thought...take it as you will...

[jetpiston]

Sex is a symbol, though, and is not the Mystery itself. Insisting that heterosexual sex is the point mistakes the symbol for what it symbolizes.I'm not insisting that it is the point, I'm saying that sexual symbolism is perhaps the most basic place from which Wica springs. What you do with it, no matter what that is, is the "point".

[Louisvillian]

I personally think that this is a very bad thing as sexuality is in my view a very important element of Wicca (after all our most important ritual is a sexual one) and should not be treated as some sort of minor apocryphal thing. What do you guys think?
I agree. I think that Wicca was intended primarily as a fertility-based religion, and much of Wiccan mythology reflects this intent. I do not ignore the fertility and sexual aspects of Wicca.

However, I think the process of de-emphasising sexuality served a purpose in the time that it originally occurred. The books which originally de-emphasised sex in Wicca were written during the 1970s and the latter part of the sexual revolution, which witnessed the advent of LGBT rights and liberty as a social, political, and religious issue. To make the religion more accepting of LGBT practitioners, Wiccan authors began to de-emphasise heterosexuality-centred rituals and rites in Wiccan literature and liturgy.

But, I don't think this anti-emphasis is necessary any longer.

[Thyrsos]

the Great Rite and the idea of sex and polarity are symbolic and not the "real thing".

A flat lie. They are not merely symbolic anymore than the positive and negative polarities of a magnet are "symbolic." This knee jerk argument that gays can by-god do anything heterosexual couples can is getting a bit shrill.

And old.

[Sequoia]

A flat lie. They are not merely symbolic anymore than the positive and negative polarities of a magnet are "symbolic." This knee jerk argument that gays can by-god do anything heterosexual couples can is getting a bit shrill.

And old.

Um, short of making a baby, they can. It's all just an exchange of sexual fluids. And newsflash - asses are just as good an orifice as cootches.

Sexual magick is about the energy raised, not the gender of the individuals involved. I'm pretty sure the divine has more important things to worry about than whether you're mixing milk and fish or not.

Unless you're trying to make a baby, it truly does not matter.

[Cassie]

A flat lie. They are not merely symbolic anymore than the positive and negative polarities of a magnet are "symbolic." This knee jerk argument that gays can by-god do anything heterosexual couples can is getting a bit shrill.

And old.
By using the term 'merely' symbolic, you imply that symbolism is somehow less significant or meaningful than the real thing, which would negate the practice and ritual of virtually all religions.
I think when Ben said "the Great Rite and the idea of sex and polarity are symbolic and not the "real thing"; he meant that even performing the Great Rite as an actual sexual act is itself only a symbol of a greater reality and mystery of creation which has never fully been explained by science or religion... But can be expressed symbolically.

There is nothing 'mere' about symbolism.
And there is no reason why any group should be excluded from this act of faith on grounds of their sexuality.

[Ben Gruagach]

People who don't like gay sex don't have to have gay sex. It's pretty simple.

Wicca has included much more than just heterosexual versions of the Great Rite for quite some time. I seriously doubt that Alex Sanders (with all the boyfriends he had, and the men-only covens he ran at times) never thought to include same-sex Great Rite rituals in his work for instance.

(Maxine Sanders talks a bit about one of Alex's men-only covens in her autobiography "Fire Child.")

There are two pretty strong justifications for more than just heterosexual expressions of the Great Rite in Wicca:


"An it harm none, do what you will."

"All acts of love and pleasure are My rituals."

Those who want to restrict their practice to solely heterosexual versions of the Great Rite are free to do so. No one is saying that alternatives are being made mandatory.

[Thyrsos]

Let me spell it out for you. When done properly, there is an alchemical transmutation of the semen within the vagina. Not. Symbolic.

Just as some women use their menses fluids in certain magic, the so "elixir" thus created through the Great Rite is then used in magic.

Now if you want to fish the aftermath of gay sex out of some guy's butt and use that in your magic, knock yourself out. You can call it anything you want.

[Ben Gruagach]

Let me spell it out for you. When done properly, there is an alchemical transmutation of the semen within the vagina. Not. Symbolic.

Just as some women use their menses fluids in certain magic, the so "elixir" thus created through the Great Rite is then used in magic.

Now if you want to fish the aftermath of gay sex out of some guy's butt and use that in your magic, knock yourself out. You can call it anything you want.

You have a terribly limited conception of what is involved in same-sex interactions. Just like the Great Rite is hardly exclusive to heterosexual penis-vagina sex (alchemical justifications or not.)

By the way, Gardner very likely based most of the Great Rite on Aleister Crowley's work along with a lot of other stuff he "borrowed" for Wicca. Crowley's OTO held sex magick, the Great Rite, as a central rite. And guess what? The core of one of the highest degree levels, the XI, is a homosexual Great Rite. (The OTO's highest degree is the XII, and is reserved for the Outer Head of the Order.)

Just something to think about.

(Those who are interested in learning more about the influence of Aleister Crowley on Gardner's Wicca should start by reading Roger Dearnaley's excellent essay at http://www.geraldgardner.com/dearnaley.php )

[Lunacie]

Let me spell it out for you. When done properly, there is an alchemical transmutation of the semen within the vagina. Not. Symbolic.

Just as some women use their menses fluids in certain magic, the so "elixir" thus created through the Great Rite is then used in magic.

Now if you want to fish the aftermath of gay sex out of some guy's butt and use that in your magic, knock yourself out. You can call it anything you want.

FORUM GUIDE MODE: This is a PG 13 forum. Please consider that when posting anything graphic or sexual. Thank you.

[Louisvillian]

Let me spell it out for you. When done properly, there is an alchemical transmutation of the semen within the vagina. Not. Symbolic.
You realise that classical alchemy as it exists now is symbolic, right? It is an outmoded manner to describe the natural world, and is thus delegated to a practice of symbols.

Not that such a thing is bad, of course. To quote Cassie, there is nothing mere about symbols. Symbolism is an important part of rituals, and is a very powerful thing as a focus for energy. Sexual energy included, when one uses sexual rites, even if those rites do not contain literal sex. It is not the energy raised that matters, and same-sex Great Rites can do that just as well as heterosexual Great Rites.

[HetHert]

You realise that alchemy as it exists now is symbolic, right?
The elements and concepts in alchemy are rooted in Ancient Greek philosophy and medieval proto-chemistry; they are not literal descriptions or definitions on how things in the world work. They are symbolic references, and symbols apply regardless of the sex of those using them.


Quote your source please. Alchemy is far more than a symbolic system of attainment of "gold". If it were only about symbolism why do I have an enfluerage setup in my house so I can extract essential oils (the plant's "gold") from my lavender plant I've nursed in the garden.

[Louisvillian]

Quote your source please. Alchemy is far more than a symbolic system of attainment of "gold". If it were only about symbolism why do I have an enfluerage setup in my house so I can extract essential oils (the plant's "gold") from my lavender plant I've nursed in the garden.
That's not at all what I meant when I said "alchemy". I was talking about classical alchemy, the alchemical ideas of Aristotle and Plato. Those are by and large insufficient to describe the natural world and the chemical elments thereof.

But if by alchemy, you mean using chemicals and elements to raise and manipulate energies, then I was imprecise. That kind exists and is a core part of Wiccan ritual symbolism. I have gone back and fixed my post to be more precise.

[Thyrsos]

Just like the Great Rite is hardly exclusive to heterosexual penis-vagina sex (alchemical justifications or not.)

As a man, I may not well understand the power of a woman using her menstrual fluid as a material component of a magic spell, but I'm not going to mock or disrespect that by insistinjg that my feces would work just as well. By choosing to ignore the physical differances between a woman's vagina and a man's rectum, this is essentially what you are suggesting.

The Elixir created in the crucible of the vagina during the Great Rite is a highly charged, and power magical substance.

Whatever "elixir" is produced from your homosexual version...you know what? Forget it. I don't even want to know. The very idea is nauseating.

[Lunacie]

As a man, I may not well understand the power of a woman using her menstrual fluid as a material component of a magic spell, but I'm not going to mock or disrespect that by insistinjg that my feces would work just as well. By choosing to ignore the physical differances between a woman's vagina and a man's rectum, this is essentially what you are suggesting.

The Elixir created in the crucible of the vagina during the Great Rite is a highly charged, and power magical substance.

Whatever "elixir" is produced from your homosexual version...you know what? Forget it. I don't even want to know. The very idea is nauseating.

It can indeed be a marvelous thing - magical - perhaps alchemical - when a man and a woman enact the Great Rite together. But it can also be a marvelous thing when one person does the Great Rite all alone, it can be a marvelous thing when a man and woman enact the Great Rite symbolically, and it can also be a marvelous thing when two people of the same gender enact the Great Rite, whether they do it symbolically or otherwise.

Many of us get frustrated and perhaps a bit hot under the collar when someone comes along and tells us that there is Only One True Way of doing things. Gardner himself showed us the Eclectic nature of The Craft of the Wise. As he explained it, when The Craft was driven into hiding, each group grew and evolved on it's own, making changes, loosing part of the group knowledge, until in his day each group had some of the pieces of it, but no group had all of the pieces.

If you don't want to think about what it takes to do the Great Rite in a different way than you prefer to do it, who is forcing you to do that? Your way is good and it works for you, but there are other ways that work for other people. Even if you don't agree with that, please be respectful of those who do believe it.

[Sequoia]

As a man, I may not well understand the power of a woman using her menstrual fluid as a material component of a magic spell, but I'm not going to mock or disrespect that by insistinjg that my feces would work just as well. By choosing to ignore the physical differances between a woman's vagina and a man's rectum, this is essentially what you are suggesting.

Hardly. There is a huge difference between feces and menstrual fluid. (I, being a woman, am very aware of the difference!) The difference between semen and vaginal fluid is not that great. Both are merely vehicles for procreation. SOME have suggested that when a woman orgasms, she releases a fluid much like seminal fluid (sans sperm, of course). But all of this is related to procreation.

And again, that only matters if your end result is to be procreation


The Elixir created in the crucible of the vagina during the Great Rite is a highly charged, and power magical substance.

Because we all know that vaginal mucous has alchemical properties. If only the ancients had bothered a woman, all of us chicks would be turning Lead into Gold!

I could say that the snot I make when I have allergies is a "power magical substance" because it combines nature (the allergen) and a mysterious battle that few people understand (allergic reaction) inside of my own body (oo, mystical!).

But this obviously does not make allergies sacred. Why? Because people don't enjoy allergies. You can't raise a lot of energy by sniffling and sneezing. Nevermind that they're mysterious and full of bodily fluids. So what does this tell us? Well, it tells us that it's about the energy raised in a ceremony (rite, ritual, spell, etc) that is what is driving and powering that situation.


Whatever "elixir" is produced from your homosexual version...you know what? Forget it. I don't even want to know. The very idea is nauseating.

And what exactly are you suggesting? Please tell me you aren't one of those people who think that there's feces commonly involved in anal sex.

Frankly, assuming that the second partner ("bottom") orgasms, there would be "clean" semen to be collected. I imagine that that would be some pretty powerfully charged stuff.

And if you've never tasted semen, never encountered it outside your own personal masturbation, you cannot possibly tell me that you know just how "charged" or "sacred" it would be. And judging by your litany of why homosexuals could not POSSIBLY perform the Great Rite with all of the supercalifragalisticness of heterosexuals, I'm fairly certain that you've never caused another male to orgasm, been there to taste his semen, or otherwise involved yourself in a sacred ritual with another man with whom you had a bond deeper than friendship.

Hey, if you're 100%, chest-pounding heterosexual male, that's fine. You can't "convert" people to one sexuality or another, nor would I want to even try to do that to a person. But YOU, my friend, are trying to convince us that homosexuals just aren't good enough for the Great Rite, despite historical evidence to the contrary. And that's just wrong.

I know a couple... I've read your posts in various threads to them. They LAUGH, and shake their heads. They pity you. You know why? Because for them, a couple who have been performing something akin to the Great Rite for decades, the idea that some poor sap out there just doesn't get it in this day and age is kind of sad. They don't need your approval for their rituals to work. And they HAVE worked. Consistently.


You are wrong. Sorry, that's just how it is. You have never experienced "gay sex", and hence don't know the power that it DOES hold. You have never held a deep and sacred loving bond with another man, nor experienced the power that THAT holds - the same power that any deep, loving bond would have.

We're talking about energy. There's no such thing as "alchemy," unless you're literally trying to turn substances into other substances. Extracting essential oils from plants isn't alchemy, no matter how fluffy that makes you feel to say it. It's basic science. Just like baking is not alchemy, it's science. We understand how these things WORK now. There's no mystery in them, unless you're ignorant of the processes.

So unless you're going to demonstrate for me a reaction between seminal fluid and vaginal fluid that roughly approximates the reaction between vinegar and baking soda, I'm going to have to shake my head at you and wonder where you get your ideas.

[Ben Gruagach]

Absolutely wonderful posts, Lunacie and Sequoia. In my humble opinion it's pretty clear that you both Get The Mystery that is the essence of the Great Rite.

One little side note:


But this obviously does not make allergies sacred. Why? Because people don't enjoy allergies. You can't raise a lot of energy by sniffling and sneezing. Nevermind that they're mysterious and full of bodily fluids. So what does this tell us? Well, it tells us that it's about the energy raised in a ceremony (rite, ritual, spell, etc) that is what is driving and powering that situation.

I read once that the mechanism behind the sneeze is actually surprisingly similar to the orgasm. Apparently that's one of the big reasons why snuff was so popular.

[Sequoia]

Absolutely wonderful posts, Lunacie and Sequoia. In my humble opinion it's pretty clear that you both Get The Mystery that is the essence of the Great Rite.

I just figure that people have sex, with bodily fluids, every day... and no magickeal alchemical process occurs, other than the occasional pregnancy (which isn't alchemical, it's basic reproduction). It takes a special circumstance to perform a "Great Rite", meaning you have to have the right mindset, the right energy, the perfect moment with your loved one. It's not just a wild falk-for-the-gods. (Although I understand that you CAN get the right energy going in a spontaneous nature, it's not that common.)

In other words, SEX =/= GREAT RITE. Yes, the Great Rite involves sex, but it's not the bodily fluids that are making the ceremony. Hence why people can do it symbolically with different tools.


One little side note:

I read once that the mechanism behind the sneeze is actually surprisingly similar to the orgasm. Apparently that's one of the big reasons why snuff was so popular.

Lol! :hehehehe:

[Lunacie]

I know that Wicca is often considered to be "an adult religion" or a religion for adults, but this forum is rated PG 13 and if we can't talk about this subject without following the guidelines, then I will have to ask for the thread to be closed.

Don't wanna do that, because I think this is a great discussion otherwise.

[sidhe]

What got said before by Lunacie and others.

The point of the Great Rite is to raise energy via sexual means. Symbolic, heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual orgy, masturbation, BDSM...whatever. If it works, it works, and what works for one individual won't work for everyone. There's no super-majickal alchemical reaction in heterosexual sex that causes the energy to be raised. Besides...who said that the heterosexual couple was doing...umm...that particular act?

[Shawn Blackwolf]

We're talking about energy. There's no such thing as "alchemy," unless you're literally trying to turn substances into other substances. Extracting essential oils from plants isn't alchemy, no matter how fluffy that makes you feel to say it. It's basic science. Just like baking is not alchemy, it's science. We understand how these things WORK now. There's no mystery in them, unless you're ignorant of the processes.


Interesting thread...nice posts...

I do think what is being missed here , by many , is the union
of the physical substances , and energetic transformation...

Yes , there may be great energy released , transformed , and
transmitted , by any combination of the sexes...but it will not
be the same result , if it is AA , rather than AB , BB , or any
larger group configuration...the physical substance , and energy
accessed , would vibrate at differing frequencies...

There are differences in the brain chemistry of male and female ,
at least according to modern research...let alone other physiological
differences...so , I would agree , the substance would not be the
same...and , I know from my work with vibrational energetics ,
Tantra , and the combinations of male and female secretions ,
physical , and subtle , enhanced by ritual , the energetic frequency
would differ...

However...whatever combination , the end process would produce
a transformative energy , substance , and result...

This was one of the reasons for the variant combinations in the
Sex Magick practices of many traditions , not just O.T.O. , or
other "secret societies"...

Sequoia...I only quoted you , regarding the Al - Khemi , and
plant section of your post , to bring this to people's attention...

This man studied these sciences extensively in France...I met
him in Oregon...this information might be found interesting...

http://www.al-qemi.com/welcome/Al-Qemi/al-qemi.html

May we find ways to respect each other's traditions...:thumbsup:

[Moonlight's Daughter]

Hardly. There is a huge difference between feces and menstrual fluid. (I, being a woman, am very aware of the difference!) The difference between semen and vaginal fluid is not that great. Both are merely vehicles for procreation. SOME have suggested that when a woman orgasms, she releases a fluid much like seminal fluid (sans sperm, of course). But all of this is related to procreation.

And again, that only matters if your end result is to be procreation



Because we all know that vaginal mucous has alchemical properties. If only the ancients had bothered a woman, all of us chicks would be turning Lead into Gold!

I could say that the snot I make when I have allergies is a "power magical substance" because it combines nature (the allergen) and a mysterious battle that few people understand (allergic reaction) inside of my own body (oo, mystical!).

But this obviously does not make allergies sacred. Why? Because people don't enjoy allergies. You can't raise a lot of energy by sniffling and sneezing. Nevermind that they're mysterious and full of bodily fluids. So what does this tell us? Well, it tells us that it's about the energy raised in a ceremony (rite, ritual, spell, etc) that is what is driving and powering that situation.



And what exactly are you suggesting? Please tell me you aren't one of those people who think that there's feces commonly involved in anal sex.

Frankly, assuming that the second partner ("bottom") orgasms, there would be "clean" semen to be collected. I imagine that that would be some pretty powerfully charged stuff.

And if you've never tasted semen, never encountered it outside your own personal masturbation, you cannot possibly tell me that you know just how "charged" or "sacred" it would be. And judging by your litany of why homosexuals could not POSSIBLY perform the Great Rite with all of the supercalifragalisticness of heterosexuals, I'm fairly certain that you've never caused another male to orgasm, been there to taste his semen, or otherwise involved yourself in a sacred ritual with another man with whom you had a bond deeper than friendship.

Hey, if you're 100%, chest-pounding heterosexual male, that's fine. You can't "convert" people to one sexuality or another, nor would I want to even try to do that to a person. But YOU, my friend, are trying to convince us that homosexuals just aren't good enough for the Great Rite, despite historical evidence to the contrary. And that's just wrong.

I know a couple... I've read your posts in various threads to them. They LAUGH, and shake their heads. They pity you. You know why? Because for them, a couple who have been performing something akin to the Great Rite for decades, the idea that some poor sap out there just doesn't get it in this day and age is kind of sad. They don't need your approval for their rituals to work. And they HAVE worked. Consistently.


You are wrong. Sorry, that's just how it is. You have never experienced "gay sex", and hence don't know the power that it DOES hold. You have never held a deep and sacred loving bond with another man, nor experienced the power that THAT holds - the same power that any deep, loving bond would have.

We're talking about energy. There's no such thing as "alchemy," unless you're literally trying to turn substances into other substances. Extracting essential oils from plants isn't alchemy, no matter how fluffy that makes you feel to say it. It's basic science. Just like baking is not alchemy, it's science. We understand how these things WORK now. There's no mystery in them, unless you're ignorant of the processes.

So unless you're going to demonstrate for me a reaction between seminal fluid and vaginal fluid that roughly approximates the reaction between vinegar and baking soda, I'm going to have to shake my head at you and wonder where you get your ideas.

QFT!

[David19]

Um, short of making a baby, they can. It's all just an exchange of sexual fluids. And newsflash - asses are just as good an orifice as cootches.

Sexual magick is about the energy raised, not the gender of the individuals involved. I'm pretty sure the divine has more important things to worry about than whether you're mixing milk and fish or not.

Unless you're trying to make a baby, it truly does not matter.


By using the term 'merely' symbolic, you imply that symbolism is somehow less significant or meaningful than the real thing, which would negate the practice and ritual of virtually all religions.
I think when Ben said "the Great Rite and the idea of sex and polarity are symbolic and not the "real thing"; he meant that even performing the Great Rite as an actual sexual act is itself only a symbol of a greater reality and mystery of creation which has never fully been explained by science or religion... But can be expressed symbolically.

There is nothing 'mere' about symbolism.
And there is no reason why any group should be excluded from this act of faith on grounds of their sexuality.

QFT, sex magic is about the energy raised, and directed, that's why it works, it has nothing to do with one partner having a vagina and another a cock, a cock and ass can be just as good, hell, it can even work on your own!.

And, I really agree with you, Cassie, just 'cause something is symbolic doesn't invalidate it, it can still be very powerful, IMO, anyway.

[David19]

People who don't like gay sex don't have to have gay sex. It's pretty simple.

Wicca has included much more than just heterosexual versions of the Great Rite for quite some time. I seriously doubt that Alex Sanders (with all the boyfriends he had, and the men-only covens he ran at times) never thought to include same-sex Great Rite rituals in his work for instance.

(Maxine Sanders talks a bit about one of Alex's men-only covens in her autobiography "Fire Child.")

There are two pretty strong justifications for more than just heterosexual expressions of the Great Rite in Wicca:


"An it harm none, do what you will."

"All acts of love and pleasure are My rituals."

Those who want to restrict their practice to solely heterosexual versions of the Great Rite are free to do so. No one is saying that alternatives are being made mandatory.

Again, QFT, and the more you talk about 'Fire Child' by Maxine Sanders, the more I really want to get it (hopefully, if I get a part-time job soon, I'll have some money and can order it, as well as your book, even though I'm not a Wiccan).

Also, since Alex Sanders contributed a lot to Wicca, including Traditional Wicca (Alexandrian Wicca is, as far as I know, still considered traditional and still a mystery religion), I don't think there's anything wrong with being LGBT and being Wiccan, I mean, if Alex Sanders can do it, I don't think the Wiccan Gods care (and, I may be wrong, but I don't think Doreen Valiente (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doreen_Valiente) (and here (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Doreen+Valiente&meta=)) cared whether you were straight or LGBT or not, if anyone knows different, please correct me, as I'd be interested to know?). Also, Feri witchcraft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feri_Tradition) (and also here (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Feri+Witchcraft&meta=) for a lot more links, articles, sites, books, etc) has no problem with sexuality and LGBT people, it's a mystery religion (as far as I know, maybe SoulFire can correct me on this or explain more?), and is more ecstatic, etc. So, I don't think being hetrosexual is a requirement to work magic, or worship the Wiccan Gods, or practice the Great Rite/sex magic, etc.

BTW, sorry if I got a bit OT in my post :).

[David19]

You have a terribly limited conception of what is involved in same-sex interactions. Just like the Great Rite is hardly exclusive to heterosexual penis-vagina sex (alchemical justifications or not.)

By the way, Gardner very likely based most of the Great Rite on Aleister Crowley's work along with a lot of other stuff he "borrowed" for Wicca. Crowley's OTO held sex magick, the Great Rite, as a central rite. And guess what? The core of one of the highest degree levels, the XI, is a homosexual Great Rite. (The OTO's highest degree is the XII, and is reserved for the Outer Head of the Order.)

Just something to think about.

(Those who are interested in learning more about the influence of Aleister Crowley on Gardner's Wicca should start by reading Roger Dearnaley's excellent essay at http://www.geraldgardner.com/dearnaley.php )

Again, QFT, Ben, and thanks for that link, I'll read it more later, but it's definitely very interesting. I've also heard that the OTO has homosexual sex magic and practices at the highest level, and since, Gardner, likely, got the idea for the Great Rite from Crowley (and probably other places too?), etc, it's gives you a lot to think about, especially regarding the claim that LGBT sex can't be called the Great Rite or part of the Great Rite or that it can't create magic, etc. I've heard Crowley was very into homosexual sex magic (not sure if that's true?), and that, while he used women in sex magic, he didn't see women as equals, and more as "magical tools", and was more into men (again, I'm not sure if that's true, are there any good books on Crowley, especially his magical exploits and adventures?, I know that's quite OT, though).

[David19]

You realise that classical alchemy as it exists now is symbolic, right? It is an outmoded manner to describe the natural world, and is thus delegated to a practice of symbols.

Not that such a thing is bad, of course. To quote Cassie, there is nothing mere about symbols. Symbolism is an important part of rituals, and is a very powerful thing as a focus for energy. Sexual energy included, when one uses sexual rites, even if those rites do not contain literal sex. It is not the energy raised that matters, and same-sex Great Rites can do that just as well as heterosexual Great Rites.

QFT, and great post :) (I'd give you karma, but, apparantly, I've given too much today and can't give anymore).

[David19]

Quote your source please. Alchemy is far more than a symbolic system of attainment of "gold". If it were only about symbolism why do I have an enfluerage setup in my house so I can extract essential oils (the plant's "gold") from my lavender plant I've nursed in the garden.

Good post too, I find alchemy quite interesting too, and want to learn a lot more about it :).

[David19]

As a man, I may not well understand the power of a woman using her menstrual fluid as a material component of a magic spell, but I'm not going to mock or disrespect that by insistinjg that my feces would work just as well. By choosing to ignore the physical differances between a woman's vagina and a man's rectum, this is essentially what you are suggesting.

The Elixir created in the crucible of the vagina during the Great Rite is a highly charged, and power magical substance.

Whatever "elixir" is produced from your homosexual version...you know what? Forget it. I don't even want to know. The very idea is nauseating.


Hardly. There is a huge difference between feces and menstrual fluid. (I, being a woman, am very aware of the difference!) The difference between semen and vaginal fluid is not that great. Both are merely vehicles for procreation. SOME have suggested that when a woman orgasms, she releases a fluid much like seminal fluid (sans sperm, of course). But all of this is related to procreation.

And again, that only matters if your end result is to be procreation

Because we all know that vaginal mucous has alchemical properties. If only the ancients had bothered a woman, all of us chicks would be turning Lead into Gold!

I could say that the snot I make when I have allergies is a "power magical substance" because it combines nature (the allergen) and a mysterious battle that few people understand (allergic reaction) inside of my own body (oo, mystical!).

But this obviously does not make allergies sacred. Why? Because people don't enjoy allergies. You can't raise a lot of energy by sniffling and sneezing. Nevermind that they're mysterious and full of bodily fluids. So what does this tell us? Well, it tells us that it's about the energy raised in a ceremony (rite, ritual, spell, etc) that is what is driving and powering that situation.



And what exactly are you suggesting? Please tell me you aren't one of those people who think that there's feces commonly involved in anal sex.

Frankly, assuming that the second partner ("bottom") orgasms, there would be "clean" semen to be collected. I imagine that that would be some pretty powerfully charged stuff.

And if you've never tasted semen, never encountered it outside your own personal masturbation, you cannot possibly tell me that you know just how "charged" or "sacred" it would be. And judging by your litany of why homosexuals could not POSSIBLY perform the Great Rite with all of the supercalifragalisticness of heterosexuals, I'm fairly certain that you've never caused another male to orgasm, been there to taste his semen, or otherwise involved yourself in a sacred ritual with another man with whom you had a bond deeper than friendship.

Hey, if you're 100%, chest-pounding heterosexual male, that's fine. You can't "convert" people to one sexuality or another, nor would I want to even try to do that to a person. But YOU, my friend, are trying to convince us that homosexuals just aren't good enough for the Great Rite, despite historical evidence to the contrary. And that's just wrong.

I know a couple... I've read your posts in various threads to them. They LAUGH, and shake their heads. They pity you. You know why? Because for them, a couple who have been performing something akin to the Great Rite for decades, the idea that some poor sap out there just doesn't get it in this day and age is kind of sad. They don't need your approval for their rituals to work. And they HAVE worked. Consistently.


You are wrong. Sorry, that's just how it is. You have never experienced "gay sex", and hence don't know the power that it DOES hold. You have never held a deep and sacred loving bond with another man, nor experienced the power that THAT holds - the same power that any deep, loving bond would have.

We're talking about energy. There's no such thing as "alchemy," unless you're literally trying to turn substances into other substances. Extracting essential oils from plants isn't alchemy, no matter how fluffy that makes you feel to say it. It's basic science. Just like baking is not alchemy, it's science. We understand how these things WORK now. There's no mystery in them, unless you're ignorant of the processes.

So unless you're going to demonstrate for me a reaction between seminal fluid and vaginal fluid that roughly approximates the reaction between vinegar and baking soda, I'm going to have to shake my head at you and wonder where you get your ideas.

Like Ben said, great post, Sequoia, I really agree with you :). Also, like you said, it's about the energy, as far as I know, not the substances that are produced, yes, the fluids will be magically charged, and sexual fluids can be very powerful, like in chaos magic, when charging a sigil, one of the more powerful ways of charging it (at least, IMO anyway) is to use sexual fluids, like cum (or for a woman, the fluid that is released in female ejaculation, which does happen, for those that don't think so), etc, plus, it's fun getting it ;)! (whether from masturbation or with a partner), you create a sigil, keep it in your mind at the point of orgasum, then smear your sexual fluids on it, etc (I'm sure someone else can explain it better than me). Like Sequoia said, if female fluids were alchemical, then, Sequoia, Lunacie, and all other women on MW and elsewhere, you are so rich, just have sex with your male partner, and start turning some lead into gold (or anything else into gold, like Midas!), and if you do, don't forget about your friends at MW ;).

And, like others have said, it is false to say anal sex involves feces, it doesn't, if it's done right, LGBT sex magic can be just as powerful as hetrosexual sex magic.

The same "elixir" that a hetrosexual Great Rite/sex magic produces is similar to the one a homosexual or any LGBT Great Rite/sex magic produces, it works, why can't you accept that?.

I'm going to quote something someone I know, from my uni LGBT, said, a hole is a hole is a goal or something like that, why does it matter which hole is which?.

[David19]

It can indeed be a marvelous thing - magical - perhaps alchemical - when a man and a woman enact the Great Rite together. But it can also be a marvelous thing when one person does the Great Rite all alone, it can be a marvelous thing when a man and woman enact the Great Rite symbolically, and it can also be a marvelous thing when two people of the same gender enact the Great Rite, whether they do it symbolically or otherwise.

Many of us get frustrated and perhaps a bit hot under the collar when someone comes along and tells us that there is Only One True Way of doing things. Gardner himself showed us the Eclectic nature of The Craft of the Wise. As he explained it, when The Craft was driven into hiding, each group grew and evolved on it's own, making changes, loosing part of the group knowledge, until in his day each group had some of the pieces of it, but no group had all of the pieces.

If you don't want to think about what it takes to do the Great Rite in a different way than you prefer to do it, who is forcing you to do that? Your way is good and it works for you, but there are other ways that work for other people. Even if you don't agree with that, please be respectful of those who do believe it.

Again, QFT, both ways are powerful, beautiful, and they work, etc. There is no "One True Way", if it works, it works, and homosexual and LGBT Great Rites/sex magic, work just as well as hetrosexual Great Rites/sex magic. Like Ben mentioned, Alex Sanders ran all male covens, and, since Alexandrian Wicca is, technically, Traditional Wicca, I'm guessing he included the Great Rite, and it must have worked (I find it hard to believe, Alex would have kept doing it, if the magic didn't work, unless the sex was just that good!, although sex and magic is probably an amazing combination).

Symbolic or physical, it doesn't matter, LGBT people can work magic and make the Great Rite/sex magic work, just as well as straight people can, IMO.

[David19]

I just figure that people have sex, with bodily fluids, every day... and no magickeal alchemical process occurs, other than the occasional pregnancy (which isn't alchemical, it's basic reproduction). It takes a special circumstance to perform a "Great Rite", meaning you have to have the right mindset, the right energy, the perfect moment with your loved one. It's not just a wild falk-for-the-gods. (Although I understand that you CAN get the right energy going in a spontaneous nature, it's not that common.)

In other words, SEX =/= GREAT RITE. Yes, the Great Rite involves sex, but it's not the bodily fluids that are making the ceremony. Hence why people can do it symbolically with different tools.



Lol! :hehehehe:

Again, QFT and great post, IMO, Sequoia :).

[David19]

What got said before by Lunacie and others.

The point of the Great Rite is to raise energy via sexual means. Symbolic, heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual orgy, masturbation, BDSM...whatever. If it works, it works, and what works for one individual won't work for everyone. There's no super-majickal alchemical reaction in heterosexual sex that causes the energy to be raised. Besides...who said that the heterosexual couple was doing...umm...that particular act?

QFT, again, great post, and I agree. If it works, it works, Whether it's hetrosexual, LGBT, BDSM, on your own, whatever, etc, they all work, and they all great paths, they might not work for everyone, but they are all equally valid ways of doing the Great Rite/sex magic. None is better than the other, IMO. If we all focused on our own practices, we might really all improve at magic, and make it even more incredibly powerful.

[David19]

Interesting thread...nice posts...

I do think what is being missed here , by many , is the union
of the physical substances , and energetic transformation...

Yes , there may be great energy released , transformed , and
transmitted , by any combination of the sexes...but it will not
be the same result , if it is AA , rather than AB , BB , or any
larger group configuration...the physical substance , and energy
accessed , would vibrate at differing frequencies...

There are differences in the brain chemistry of male and female ,
at least according to modern research...let alone other physiological
differences...so , I would agree , the substance would not be the
same...and , I know from my work with vibrational energetics ,
Tantra , and the combinations of male and female secretions ,
physical , and subtle , enhanced by ritual , the energetic frequency
would differ...

However...whatever combination , the end process would produce
a transformative energy , substance , and result...

This was one of the reasons for the variant combinations in the
Sex Magick practices of many traditions , not just O.T.O. , or
other "secret societies"...

Sequoia...I only quoted you , regarding the Al - Khemi , and
plant section of your post , to bring this to people's attention...

This man studied these sciences extensively in France...I met
him in Oregon...this information might be found interesting...

http://www.al-qemi.com/welcome/Al-Qemi/al-qemi.html

May we find ways to respect each other's traditions...:thumbsup:

Good post, and I really agree with your last point, that's something we all need to do (not just on MW or even in the Pagan world, but in the world at large, IMO, anyway).

Thanks for providing those interesting links too :).