Pentacle/Pentagram

[Artemis84]

I'm sure this has been posted a few times, but I haven't been able to find anything on the search engine.

What's the difference between a pentacle and a pentagram? I've had people tell me that one is for Satanism and the other is Wiccan, one is 3D and the other is 2D, and one has a circle and the other one doesn't. For some reason I don't think that I've gotten the right answer. :D

Any ideas?

[Mithrea]

Well . . . dictionary.com will tell you there is no difference. My understanding wast that "gram" in "pentagram" referred to the actual drawing of a pentacle. Thus the pentacle is the shape and the pentagram is the drawn representation. I think though this is another one of those words that has bee misused so much that the meaning has actually changed (like "cult"). Most people I know use them interchangeably.

[Myst]

Yep Mith! :)

You'll also see them used to refer to the upright/inverted forms. Keep in mind that for some the inverted pentagram/cle is used to refer to the second initiation, and/or delving into the underworld, the unknown, or God.

[Artemis84]

Who ever came up with the pentagram/cle anyway? Was this recent or ancient.

And I've come up with a new word. Let's just call it a "pentagramsicle!" It's the best of both worlds! :nyah:

[Myst]

penta means 5, gram is part of 'diagram', the 'cle' I don't know but I think there's a thread on it somewhere.

[AradiaSupernova]

pentagram=just a 5 point star
pentacle=five point star with a circle around it.

[jelly.belly]

Originally posted by AradiaSupernova
pentagram=just a 5 point star
pentacle=five point star with a circle around it.

thats what i was gonna say... :dis:

[ChelleOfShadows]

Hey I settled this for myself years ago, I just call them pents. For the record, I did some research before posting and Mith is actually right, there is no difference in the definition. However the -acle is usually referred to when the pent is hanging and not drawn or on the ground....... hence pentagram in your circle and pentacle on you earrings.

Hey just my 2 cents from the peanut gallery..........:D

[Haedis]

My unpopular opinion...I usually use pentacle to refer only to the ritual tool. Anything else from the symbol drawn on paper to one on a pendant I'd consider a pentagram. I havent really heard of anyone else using that logic but it works for me.

[Chibi-Fallon]

Long ago I just said "screw it" to the whole deal and use the one I like better at the moment. It's easier then all that other stuff. If anyone tells me I'm wrong I'll just kick 'em. That's the only way they'll learn. :D
But I thought a pentagram was anything with 5 sides. Or is that a pentagon? Even so if gram is for "diagram" couldn't it be *any* 5 pointed thingy. If you had an octagram would that be an 8 pointed star? It boggles the mind. :eek:

[Myst]

*shrugs* I guess that's up to you to decide for yourself :)

"-gram \-gram\ [Gr. ? a thing drawn or written, a letter, fr. gra`fein to draw, write. See Graphic.] A suffix indicating something drawn or written, a drawing, writing; -- as, monogram, telegram, chronogram. " ~ Websters

tho it's also associated with a measure of weight or a chick pea too I guess that's the most pertinent one there :)

[Ravenesse]

Hello!

I am Ravenesse and new to this forum.

I thought I'd help shed a little light on this because there is a distinct difference between the pentagram and the pentacle according to Wiccan sources that is not addressed in abridged modern dictionaries. In modern mysticism and Wicca, a pentacle is indeed a pentagram within a circle; however, this is a modern representation of the symbol. The pentagram is a five pointed star and has a history as old as history itself. If you look up pentagram or pentacle in the word index at symbols.com, http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/27/2721.html, you will find that the words pentagram and pentacle are used interchangeabley and the symbol has no circle. If you look up pentagram within a circle, http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/29/2913.html, it is defined as having a totally defferent meaning, astrological as apposed to mystical, and is never once referred to as a pentacle.

My point is, the modern use of the term has little to do with the academic history of the symbols involved. It has been used and adopted by dozens of cultures whom have all applied their own meanings to it. In modern witchcraft, the pentacle is associated with nature, the elements, and unity. Unity being represented by the circle that surrounds the pentagram. There is a very nice article referring to the Wiccan pentacle here:

http://www.witchvox.com/basics/pentacle.html

This is not an original interpretation; I have read it many times in many books on Wicca. And you'll note that much of the history does not coincide with symbols.com. I myself, use the pentacle for purely symbolic purposes in meditation and again, the circle is essential, this time being equivalent to the Magick circle. My interpretation is here:

http://www.theravensfeather.com/pentagram.shtml

I just thought you might be interested in some food for thought. This is the New Age and we are paving our own paths. Influenced perhaps, by the old ways, but unique unto themselves.

Blessed be!

[Myst]

I hope you mean Pagan pentacle rather then Wiccan. Important to make that distinction (says the non Wiccan wearing a pentacle). :D

[Mithrea]

IMHO Ravenesse, that is way over complicating it for me. The information is interesting but this is the way I see it. :)

My pentacle is on my altar and around my neck. A pentagram is something I draw on a piece of paper. Both of them symbolize, the elements, and the directions and unity between the divine and the earth. Plain and simple. I'm not really sure I care about the history or what it means to other people or what it meant historically. If you overanalyze something, it tends to lose meaning and effectiveness.

[Ravenesse]

In siting the history of the words Pentagram and Pentacle, I was predominantly responding to posts that were making reference to dictionary definition and entymology of the word pentacle. The point was, the answer really doesn't lie there due to its wide adoption by various paths.

The article I sited is in fact regarding the "Wiccan" interpretation of the Pentacle. It is the perspective of one of many Pagan paths. I didn't mean to insult anyone who isn't Wiccan. I am not Wiccan. However, Artemis84 is according to her profile. In that light, I was responding to her question from a Wiccan perspective and thought she might be interested in a widely accepted Wiccan interpretation of the Pentacle.

I apologize if I was overwinded. It is a personality flaw.

[Myst]

Originally posted by Ravenesse
The article I sited is in fact regarding the "Wiccan" interpretation of the Pentacle. It is the perspective of one of many Pagan paths. I didn't mean to insult anyone who isn't Wiccan. I am not Wiccan. However, Artemis84 is according to her profile. In that light, I was responding to her question from a Wiccan perspective and thought she might be interested in a widely accepted Wiccan interpretation of the Pentacle..

And how do non Wiccan Pagans see this differently?

They don't - we all see both these symbols representing elements and unity, basically. The difference between cle/gram is largely a personal one (which hasn't really been stressed enough - the definitions of anything magical or pagan are almost always largely personal rather then academic), but the meanings behind both are largely known and celebrated by any Pagan and not defined by Wicca or any other specific group. I also think it should be stressed that it is not "Wiccan" to say one has a circle and one doesn't, or one is drawn and one is 3d, because it's not. The difference is largely personal and varies depending on who you ask, and there's no "Wiccan" answer to the question or to what a pentacle or pentagram is.

I could easily find books that present a different answer as well, and I wouldn't say they prove that different answer is "Wiccan", but that it is the personal belief and understanding of the author.

[Ravenesse]

In rereading my post, I realize that I said that pretty much backwards. I meant to say that it was an interpretation of pentacle that was widely accepted by Wiccans, not that it is a Wiccan interpretation. Of course, this could apply to other Pagan paths. I hesitate to generalize and say that all Pagans would view it the same way because that would depend on what you define a Pagan to be. I apologize again.

I too have read many books on Wicca and have to agree that I have seen the word pentagram used to describe a five pointed star within a circle. However, I have never seen the term pentacle used in the absence of the circle, so I always considered that to be significant. Maybe it isn't.

Ultimately, anything that isn't hard science is left to personal opinion and preference.

[Myst]

Ah well, it's only semantics anyway :D

[Sequoia]

Originally posted by Chibi-Fallon
Long ago I just said "screw it" to the whole deal and use the one I like better at the moment. It's easier then all that other stuff. If anyone tells me I'm wrong I'll just kick 'em. That's the only way they'll learn. :D
But I thought a pentagram was anything with 5 sides. Or is that a pentagon? Even so if gram is for "diagram" couldn't it be *any* 5 pointed thingy. If you had an octagram would that be an 8 pointed star? It boggles the mind. :eek:

octacle

Does this sound wrong to you guys, too?? :rotfl:

[*~*Chary*~*]

:rotfl:

[Ravenesse]

An octagram is an eight pointed star. There is no mystical octagram though as far as I know. In basic geometry and architecture a polygon would be a figure with equal sides and angles and a polygram is the shape that results when you connect it's vertices. Hence:

pentagon/pentagram
hexagon/hexagram
octagon/octagram

[Dalia]

I have read too that the pentagram is the five pointed star and the pentacle is the pentagram in a cirlce. oh and hace another word for the last one, a friend of mine uses it: pentalpha. Dont ask me why he calls it that way :rolleyes:
But, anyways, I guess it really has no importance, who cares if you call it pentagram or pentacle or polly LOL! It is still the same thing, the same dog with a different collar ;)

[Myst]

Speaking of dogs in a different colour, mine got groomed today - my mop dog is now a nekkid chihuahua!! Ack!!

Ok I'll stop being off topic now :p

[Shawn Blackwolf]

This needs to be added to this thread , as well , there are
a number of other discussions on MW , regarding pentagram ,
"inverted pentagram" , and pentacle...they are *not* always
what people assume , and this is important , if this thread is
being linked to new members FAQ...

http://mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=3838633&postcount=10

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

This needs to be added to this thread , as well , there are
a number of other discussions on MW , regarding pentagram ,
"inverted pentagram" , and pentacle...they are *not* always
what people assume , and this is important , if this thread is
being linked to new members FAQ...

http://mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=3838633&postcount=10

It's been added thanks Shawn!

[Louisvillian]

I'm sure this has been posted a few times, but I haven't been able to find anything on the search engine.

What's the difference between a pentacle and a pentagram? I've had people tell me that one is for Satanism and the other is Wiccan, one is 3D and the other is 2D, and one has a circle and the other one doesn't. For some reason I don't think that I've gotten the right answer. :D

Any ideas?

Pentagram is a shape; specifically, the geometrical object of a five-pointed unicursal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eulerian_path)star.

A pentacle is a physical, three-dimensional representation of a pentagram, usually enclosed within a circle.