Christian mass ... a magickal ritual?

[Emaleth]

The topic may sound odd, but recently a few times I've come across a statement that a mass is a magickal ritual. I thought it was an extremely interesting idea that for so many years I regularly took part in magickal events and didn't even realize that:)

When you come to comparing a typical pagan ritual and a mass there are so many similarities it's pretty scary. What do you think about this?

Blessed Be

[SnowStar]

The similarities are certainly there, and not by accident, either! There is plenty of evidence to show that early Christian missionaries, especially in places where there was a deep-seated tradition of Paganism adopted many of the practices and traditions in order to more easily convert (and essentially assimalate) the locals into the Church. The close proximity of many major Christian holidays to Pagan celebrations is an example of this, and it is also thought that the Catholic Church's deep reverence for the Virgin Mary was forged as a way to integrate a female figure into the worship for those following Goddess-honouring paths. Studies have also shown that many Saints may not have actually existed, but instead were ficticious Christian figured based upon the Gods and Goddesses of local polytheistic religions.

There's a lot more that what I've mentioned, but a storm is blowing up here and I'm trying to keep it short so I don't fry the poor modem again. I'm sure that if you did a little bit of looking around that you could find quite a bit about this. Maybe after the storm has passed I can make another installation.

[buttercup]

It's weird you should mention that. I was just discussing that subject with my husband this weekend. He is catholic and our kids attend a catholic school. I was very involved in the church until a few years ago.
The catholic mass can certainly be seen by some to have magical and/or ritual leanings. The catholics are different from other christian denomination in that they believe that the bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus. It is not simply a symobolic gesture or rememberance, but a divine change. The reason the catholic church doesn't allow non catholics to participate in communion is for that reason. When you receive communion the person distributing is says, "This is the body/blood of Christ" and the recipient says "Amen" meaning 'I believe'. You believe that through the priests' actions and the collective belief of those gathered that bread and wine are "magically" changed.
Beyond that, there are the candles, incense, alter, etc. But everything you do in mass leads to the eucharist (communion). I don't think most catholics would prefer to equate the mass with ritual or magical dealings, but I don't think it's scary. In fact, I find it interesting that two such different belief systems have similar workings.

[Emaleth]

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There is plenty of evidence to show that early Christian missionaries, especially in places where there was a deep-seated tradition of Paganism adopted many of the practices and traditions in order to more easily convert (and essentially assimalate) the locals into the Church. The close proximity of many major Christian holidays to Pagan celebrations is an example of this, and it is also thought that the Catholic Church's deep reverence for the Virgin Mary was forged as a way to integrate a female figure into the worship for those following Goddess-honouring paths. Studies have also shown that many Saints may not have actually existed, but instead were ficticious Christian figured based upon the Gods and Goddesses of local polytheistic religions.
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Yes, I've read about it all. To me it was quite obvious that christianity adopted the pagan practices. I think that the Church itself admitted that. Well, at least to some aspects. The most famous example of "producing" saints out of gods is St Brigid. I don't remember more examples...

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Beyond that, there are the candles, incense, alter, etc. But everything you do in mass leads to the eucharist (communion).
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There's also pagan simbolism present. We have the elements represented by candles, incense, wine and bread. The church is treated as a sacred space, just like the circle. Invoking God and the saints. We could even treat the eucharist as cakes and wine ritual :)

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I don't think most catholics would prefer to equate the mass with ritual or magical dealings, but I don't think it's scary. In fact, I find it interesting that two such different belief systems have similar workings.
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I'm sure they wouldn't ;) But it is magick in a sense that pagans understand it. Because what is the purpose of the mass? Meeting the Divine and inner change through the eucharist. And there are, of course, the intentions (?): today we are praying for the soul of ... Whatever the purpose, changes are supposed to have place, it's some kind of a reality shaping... I don't know, I'm not an expert, it's just how I see it:)

Blessed Be

[Xander67]

there is nothing scarey at all about it.

:) a ritual is something that we do repeatedly,
it could be something as simple as your morning ritual when you wake up even...

[Myst]

nor surprising, really.

I see it as an interesting parallel but nothing else.

[Xander67]

I think alot of people are uncomfortable when they hear terms like Ritual, mabey this is because of the stereotypes in the media... in my opinnion

[Haedis]

Personally I think that the similarities between Wicca and Christianity is more because of Wiccan rituals being loosely based on Christian rituals rather than based on anything pre-Christian. (And the reason I say "Wicca" though the original post used the word "Pagan" is since Paganism is so loosely defined that it would be hard to pinpoint what a typical Pagan ritual consists of. )

[Myst]

Well since Wiccan rituals are a) frequent and b) often ceremonial (complex) we can assume they weren't based on ancient Witchcraft. Witchcraft practiced by heart dwellers wouldn't have a place for lots of flowery or celebratory complex rituals. Those people had to concentrate on just getting by, I don't think they would have the time for 8 sabbats and 13 esbats a year.

I wouldn't agree Wicca was based on Christianity tho either, but rather more on ceremonialism, buddhism, and perhaps hermeticism. That much you'd gain from doing some reading into it's founders and the other systems that were contributory to Wicca :)

[Flar's Freyja]

I've given this a lot of thought as a recovering Catholic and often joke that we make great pagans because we do candles, incense and ritual so well.....Catholic mass is a ritual, yes ~ as to whether it's magickal could be argued both ways. The intent is to acknowledge God and is a form of prayer. Personally, I consider my own rituals to be prayer.

I've noticed so many similarities in the way that Christians and pagans practice their religions. For instance, many Christian churches "stand on the promises of God" ~ using scripture to manifest intent. It seems to me that magick is prayer and prayer is magick.........and it's a shame that we can't all see how similar our differences really are.

[Rick]

Yep...

[Mithrea]

It's not odd at all. :p

[Emaleth]

Maybe it's not odd, but intriguing, fascinating. One day I took part in a mass that was in Spanish and it was really like a strange kind of ritual, when I didn't understand a word;)

I agree with Myst that ordinary people wouldn't have time and energy to practice complex, frequent rituals, but in most communities there must have been some priests who could do that...

Haedis, you're right, I did refer to pagan rituals in my first post, I meant it to be more general, but later I forgot about it. Being Wiccan I tend to think of other paths as having similar rituals and traditions. Sorry :)

Blessed Be

[Haedis]

well I understood what you meant...i wouldnt have mentioned it except i didnt want anyone to wonder why i switched it to 'wiccan' in my post. i wasnt trying to nitpick...honest! :D

[Mithrea]

What I was really wanting to say but didn't is that I don't think it has anything to do with a connection between Christianity and Wicca at all. The fact that anyone would be surprised shows what a limited view many pagans have of magic. Magic is not limited to your rituals. It is in everything we assign power to. There is magic in a Stop Sign. As pagans, witches, Wiccans, whatever, we do not get private access to something the rest of the world doesn't have.

[Myst]

Originally posted by Emaleth
I agree with Myst that ordinary people wouldn't have time and energy to practice complex, frequent rituals, but in most communities there must have been some priests who could do that...

Yes but since we were discussing witches we know that priests weren't needed or wanted. Witches don't need priests.

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Myst


Yes but since we were discussing witches we know that priests weren't needed or wanted. Witches don't need priests.

Unless, of course, it's a High Priest.....;)

[Witchy Cowgirl]

Originally posted by Freyja
Personally, I consider my own rituals to be prayer.

I've noticed so many similarities in the way that Christians and pagans practice their religions. For instance, many Christian churches "stand on the promises of God" ~ using scripture to manifest intent. It seems to me that magick is prayer and prayer is magick.........and it's a shame that we can't all see how similar our differences really are.

HERE! HERE! (clapping hands to show approval and appreciation)

[Silver_Alhena]

Sorry I'm so late to contribute to this thread, but I have to get my oar in!

When I was in a Catholic school, the teachers and the priests (bar one) ond the nuns seemed unable and/or unwilling to discuss and explain core tenets of the faith. In fact, the most common response to questions like, "why do we do/say/belive this?" were, "you just do" and "why are you questioning your faith."

ANYWAY.. rant over! *deep breath* to get back to the point, it was only when I read a book called "magick and ritual" by Cass Eason, and read the chapter on ritual, that I finally did understand all the parts of a mass. That book did what only one priest attempted to no, and no-one managed - explain the different parts and their significance.

Interestingly, it mentions 'cakes and ale' as the stage before closing the circle, as a grounding ceremony, the point being that you should be menally and physically exhausted. I immediatly drew parallels with the Catholic equivalent, especially due to the placing of this part of ritual/mass as being near the end.

If anyone has also read this, I would be greatful to hear your comments!

Silver_Alhena

[Myst]

Originally posted by Freyja
Unless, of course, it's a High Priest.....;)

Erm, we still don't need a High Priest either :D

[Flar's Freyja]

Bumping this interesting discussion.

[st0rm]

Originally posted by buttercup

"This is the body/blood of Christ" and the recipient says "Amen" meaning 'I believe'.



Amen means "so be it" or something very similar