Do the statues actually show your goddess?

[MonSno_LeeDra]

In recent days I have been moved to look closely at ancient statues that were supposed to have depicted Artemis / Hecate / Diana. One would think that you would be able to tell them apart but as I dive deeper and deeper into this the obsivious becomes as clear as mud.

Statues I though to be Hecate may not be her. Statues that claim to be the Greek Artemis more often turn out to be the Roman Diana. Yes Diana and Artemis are supposed to be the same person myth wise but are they? I once though so until I got slapped real hard on the Island of Rhodes and the Island of Korfu when I though something was Artemis and she said in no uncertain terms that was not her but Diana.

In light of my connection to Artemis I have used her imagery as the source for comparing the differences.

http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Artemis.html (http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Artemis.html)

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/aegean/amazons/artemisandapollo.html (http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/aegean/amazons/artemisandapollo.html)

With regard to Artemis it's difficult enough to seperate the elder Artemis from the semi-recent Artemis. The Ephesian Artemis , The elder or Asia Minor Artemis is more of a multi breasted mother figure or known as the Lady of Ephesus

http://www.turizm.net/cities/ephesus/artemision.html (http://www.turizm.net/cities/ephesus/artemision.html)

The Arcadian Artemis seems to be the model upon which the Diana / Artemis figure is based when seen as the hunter. Ironically, in this presentation she almost always is seen as wearing the short Chiton or tunic dress. This presentation also has little to no connection to her persona as a sister of Apollo.

When in this persona she also seems ot wear the flat sandle soe more so than the boot like shoe when seen with her brother.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sebastian-silva/2096038122/sizes/o/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/sebastian-silva/2096038122/sizes/o/)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/majorbonnet/168585660/sizes/l/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/majorbonnet/168585660/sizes/l/)

The Taurian Artemis / The Brauronian Artemis / Artemis tauropolos: I have not found any statues tht I can say for sure indicate this persona of Artemis. Though this version is associated with blood shed and scourging of young boys at her alters.


The Olympiam Artemis is most often seen with her brother Apollo. In this presentation she appears wearing the long Chiton most often from what I have discovered.

http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/A/Artemis.html (http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/A/Artemis.html)

http://www.beloit.edu/~classics/main/courses/classics150/museum150/apollo/images/Parthenon_Frieze_Poseidon_Apollo_Artemis_L.jpg (http://www.beloit.edu/~classics/main/courses/classics150/museum150/apollo/images/Parthenon_Frieze_Poseidon_Apollo_Artemis_L.jpg)

http://www.timelessmyths.com/classical/mother.html (http://www.timelessmyths.com/classical/mother.html)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithmaguire/1023772422/sizes/o/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithmaguire/1023772422/sizes/o/)

http://www.vroma.org/images/mcmanus_images/apollo_artemis.jpg (http://www.vroma.org/images/mcmanus_images/apollo_artemis.jpg)

http://www.lclark.edu/~ndsmith/Niobids.JPG (http://www.lclark.edu/~ndsmith/Niobids.JPG)

http://www.lclark.edu/~ndsmith/Apollo_Leto_Artemis.JPG (http://www.lclark.edu/~ndsmith/Apollo_Leto_Artemis.JPG)

Artemis as Queen of the Beast I have only found displayed on vases.

http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/K6.3.html (http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/K6.3.html)

These are but a few examples of the differences that art may take to present the various facets of the goddess. Yet I think if we rule out one visual because it doesn't fit our scope then do we known the goddess in question. Yet if we study and view them closely I htink a whole lower level of identy is revealed to us.

[Zephyrstorm]

I think the Gods are so much bigger than any way that they've been depicted. Just think how much information has been lost to us and remains that way. *sigh*

Like you, Artemis and I are close to each other, and like you, this drove me to investigate her images and the relationships she has with Hekate and Selene and Diana, depending on era and region. It's almost too much isn't it?
I was pulled towards the Artemis Ephesia, and my research remains in her area when it comes to Artemis - though I like to think I am keeping my mind open to other facets of her.

It would help if we had a better idea of how the surviving pieces were painted. In my mind, Artemis has dark hair, and Hekate has bright white hair (and later I found out that she was "Bright-Coiffed"). And Artemis is less likely to appear with torches, and somehow the hounds that accompany her in my meditations tend to be... more... domesticated? if that's the right word, than the hound that I see with Hekate.

I find I'm often pulled by Goddesses who are associated with the Potnia Theron "Queen of Beasts" epithet. Its led me to wonder if I'm more bound to that than I am to any specific Goddess. Oy. Me head hurts thinking about it all.

[Theres]

I find I'm often pulled by Goddesses who are associated with the Potnia Theron "Queen of Beasts" epithet. Its led me to wonder if I'm more bound to that than I am to any specific Goddess.
hence the draw to the Asian Artemis?

yes, it is all too much to process sometimes. however the journey is often as rewarding as the destination. my research into the REAL Hekate has led me to a study of Greek pottery which i am thoroughly enjoying. added to my background in ancient numismatics i am finally starting to understand the nature of these attributions in a way which (i believe) is closer to the ancients' intent than to any neoPagan correspondences, and this HAS helped to give definition to my research. however as you mentioned there is just too much variation in time and location to nail all this down into one nice uniform package. picking an era to specialize in certainly seems to have its advantages!

anyway, while this may be dangerously ON-topic, here are some examples...

> scene of a young woman with a bull;
this will usually be a depiction of the myth of Europa. however young women with bulls is a common theme among Greek artists, so how can we be sure if any given scene is actually Europa?
the scene will ALWAYS depict some form of water, usually a wavy line or a dolphin. without this we may or may not bve looking at Europa. with it it is certain.

> a torchbearing goddess;
this is usually taken to be Hekate, and quite possibly is. but there were other torch bearing goddesses in Greek myth, most notably Demeter and (occasionaly) Artemis. how can we be sure the scene depicts Hekate and not one of the others?
if She is holding TWO torches it is absolutely Hekate. just one? maybe, maybe not, and we need to look for other attributes, such as...

> short chiton;
when everything else in the scene seems to point to either Artemis or Hekate, the short chiton usually refers to the former goddess.
however, as MonSno showed in the Hekate/patron thread, even this is called into question (damn you! lol). the vase painting he posted clearly shows Hekate (TWO torches, Kerberus), but She is wearing a short chiton as opposed to the more common long flowing one.
but one absolutely sure attrribute to determine Artemis over Hekate is...

> bow and/or quiver;
when all else is equal this will be the determining factor. Hekate is NEVER shown with either of these attributes, while Artemis (the western Artemis anyway) almost invariably is. in fact a trace of Her quiver can be seen in the rightmost figure on the Pergamon frieze we discussed in the other thread.

> footwear;
this one is new to me, but MonSno has be going through ALL of my Greek art books looking at their bloody shoes! (lol)
obviously more research is needed here.

etc, etc, etc...

a wonderful book which deals with this kind of attribution is Jane Henle's 'Greek Myths: A Vase Painters Notebook' (1973). i have found it to be not only an invaluable tool, but a very interesting perspective on the myths themselves. a thoroughly enjoyable read!

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Zephyrstorm wrote:


It would help if we had a better idea of how the surviving pieces were painted. In my mind, Artemis has dark hair, and Hekate has bright white hair (and later I found out that she was "Bright-Coiffed").


This is purely a UPG for me but when ever I see Hecate (Crossroads Artemis) it is a young woman (mid to late 20's). Her skin is almost an alabaster white while her hair is a very fine yellow to white color that shimmers. Almost as if one was looking at a spun white gold with just a hint of yellow in it. Her garments are alwasy a silvery white that catch above her right shoulder and flow downward with a large binding about mid waist. Yet even as they are white their is a green hue to them that I can't put into words. It show's as she moves almost like a shadow.

I think the garment would be a Doric style with the one arm open and a slit down the side that runs from at least her knee maybe higher. When I do see her feet it's like she is wearing some soft shoe or boot. Her steps are light and leave no impression upon the ground.

It is alwasy a forrested area upon a pathway when I meet her. While not at a crossroads a crossroads is alwasy close by, within 500 feet I'd say.

Her presence is like speaking to my mother. Her eyes are a dark color, perhaps a dark brown to black but they sparkle as she speaks to me and thier is a glint of mischief in them. Her voice is low but also calming yet hides a trace of sharpness if needed.

I have never seen her with two torches, but one time I recall something sticking up from her back which I initialy though to be a bow. In her hand or slighty above it she held a glowing light. I think it was her right hand as it was to my left as I looked upon her.

That is who I have called the "Crossroads Artemis",

The Wilderness Artemis is a different story.

Her dress is alwasy a short garment. At times it appears Doric to me at others almost Romanized. It has the same mid waist wrap but the catch is over both shoulders not just the right like the other one. Where the Crossroads Artemis has softh boots the Wilderness Artemis has a heavy sandle with a think pad.

In some instances the pad seems to be laced to her foot with just a few heavy straps over the foot while other times it appears almost as if the lacing is across the front but a heavy leather supports the arch and heel area.

Where the Crossroads Artemis is mature and motherly the Wilderness Artemis is almost a ball of energy to me. She is ever on the move and when I come upon her it's like the urge to run with the hunt comes upon you. The hills roll with her laughter which is a high pitched sound almost bird like in its call. Yet her voice is a wisper in the forest that can climb to horrific heights if she directs her anger or discont upon you.

Her garments to me seem to change each time I come accross her. At times they are hues of brown and green while other times it's more of a white and silver.

Her hair is almost a deep brown yet it also has hues of copper or gold that reflect the sun. Where the Crossraods Artemis has her hair wrapped and up high the Wilderness Artemis seems to have it pulled back yet wrapped in such a manner that a single pull of the ponytail (?) and her hair would tumble donw her back.

One big difference is that the Wilderness Artemis is always up high on the ridge lines. She goes in the areas where it is still very wild and is accompanied by the largest Stag I have ever seen. It's never far from her and stands guard it seems to me.

Though I can't say for sure one of them has giant raven's or similar black bird associated with them. I've found it in the valleys with the Crossroads Artemis and watched the Wilderness Artemis raise her eyes skyward and call to it.

Ironically I have never seen either of them with dogs. Yes with the giant Stag and what I took to be a dwarf like creature (couldn't tell what it was really). I have never seen either of them with another female figure and only the Crossroads Artemis once had a male hunter figure with her that seemed to stand just out of my vision range hidden in the forest. I though he had antlers or other head dress but I'm not really sure anymore.

But that is how they appear to me.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Theres wrote:


> footwear;
this one is new to me, but MonSno has be going through ALL of my Greek art books looking at their bloody shoes! (lol)
obviously more research is needed here.



Something that has been at the back of my mind is the possibility that thier origin may be indiacted in thier footwear. The soft shoe or boot makes me think about the Persian influence and the Asia Minor influence upon Hecate.

The Ephesian Artemis has that open faced look. Toes uncovered by her garments but no clear view. Perhaps a single toe hook but for the most part open faced. I initialy though that should she and Hecate have similar origins thier foot wear would be the same but I haven't found an early image of Hecate to really say if her footwear changed or not.

I will admit sometimes this whole thing makes my head hurt. It's like my mind says thier are clues hidden in plain sieght for us we just need to figure them out.


a wonderful book which deals with this kind of attribution is Jane Henle's 'Greek Myths: A Vase Painters Notebook' (1973). i have found it to be not only an invaluable tool, but a very interesting perspective on the myths themselves. a thoroughly enjoyable read!


Thanks for the suggestion, i'll have to check that one out.

[Theres]

> short chiton;
when everything else in the scene seems to point to either Artemis or Hekate, the short chiton usually refers to the former goddess.
however, as MonSno showed in the Hekate/patron thread, even this is called into question (damn you! lol). the vase painting he posted clearly shows Hekate (TWO torches, Kerberus), but She is wearing a short chiton as opposed to the more common long flowing one.
so, to really put the mockers on this theory...

i just bought a new coin which clearly shows an image of Hekate, but once again She is wearing the short chiton!
the coin is from the 3rd century AD, minted in Lydia during the reign of the Roman emperor Severus Alexander, and Hekate is depicted holding two torches, but also with a full moon rising behind Her head (ie; Selene-Hekate). this moon reference would have been highly unusual for the earlier Greeks, but was rather common by this era.

[Zephyrstorm]

That's quite the find, hon! Nice. :)

[erika]

so, to really put the mockers on this theory...

i just bought a new coin which clearly shows an image of Hekate, but once again She is wearing the short chiton!
the coin is from the 3rd century AD, minted in Lydia during the reign of the Roman emperor Severus Alexander, and Hekate is depicted holding two torches, but also with a full moon rising behind Her head (ie; Selene-Hekate). this moon reference would have been highly unusual for the earlier Greeks, but was rather common by this era.

where did you get that coin? I hope you didn't get it from ebay :(

i'm a classics/archaeology student and I'm totally against, and think looting is ethically wrong, which is how most 'artifacts' on websites like ebay are found. once some idiot with a metal detector and a shovel digs it up we lose all the historical significance that coin/weapon/piece of jewelry could have given us from where it was found. basically things found in this way simply become something pretty to look at. even the cleaning process removes valuable information.

indiana jones was one of those idiots lol he'd just swing in grab some treasure and then he'd be out

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I have not done a great deal of research in comparrisons to the old representation versus the new representation of Hecate but I wonder if one might see a change in the clothing portrayal?

Perhaps showing the transistion of her as a Greek goddess to a multi-national (Romanized) version. I do think I may need to look at Selene now to see if her garments might show a ongoing change!

[Theres]

where did you get that coin? I hope you didn't get it from ebay :(
don't worry, i would NEVER buy anything on eBay, ever!
this one i found it with my metal detector while perusing around an important archeological dig in Italy, and then had it smuggled back here to the U.S.
:rolleyes:

actually i've been collecting coins like this for over 20 years, and i am well aware of international law regarding such objects.
most countries do not extend the concept of 'historical patrimony' to common coins such as this, only to national treasures or artifacts considered 'culturally interesting' (the definition used by some countries, including Italy). this can extend to coins in certain circumstances, such as entire collections which are considered culturally important, or individual coins found in an archeological context.
nothing i collect fits any of these categories, and they are all purchased from reputable dealers, mostly out of previous collections or released hoards.

[Theres]

I have not done a great deal of research in comparrisons to the old representation versus the new representation of Hecate but I wonder if one might see a change in the clothing portrayal?

Perhaps showing the transistion of her as a Greek goddess to a multi-national (Romanized) version. I do think I may need to look at Selene now to see if her garments might show a ongoing change!
i considered that too, when i first found this coin.
however there is a time difference of well over four centuries between this coin and the vase painting you posted in the other thread. that is a long time for fashion in any era!

[MonSno_LeeDra]

One thing I am coming to the conclusion of is that the more I search and research the more I find I actually do not know.

It's strange that paintings and pottery of one era seem right for what I sense and feel yet another era with similar styles and such feel wrong. Yet perhaps that is the truth of a god / goddess, they are what they are and we see facets of them but each search reveals another facet.

Yet I am starting to wonder if all are not the same goddess / god (ie Hekate is Hekate regardless of which artist painted, sculptured or envisioned her regardelss of the historical age of the artist. I guess simply put she is all things to all men so each shall see her as she desires to be seen at the time.

[Zephyrstorm]

We also need to remember that the historians and archaeologists who are labeling the finds don't always know who it is that they're looking at. If there isn't an inscription, and the imagery is something like the Running Maiden... then different scholars will label her differently. Some will list a Running Maiden as Hekate, others as Artemis, and others as Running Maid.

Same happens with the famous bronze of a man throwing a thunderbolt - some say its Zeus and a thunderbolt; others Poseidon and his trident. They don't really know.

[Meadhbh]

The thing you need to remember about statues is that no matter how great they look their still just statues. So they are the artists view of what the god or goddess looks like or should look like. The problem is that their take may not work for every body. It take some looking before you come across one that speaks to you.

[Theres]

The thing you need to remember about statues is that no matter how great they look their still just statues. So they are the artists view of what the god or goddess looks like or should look like. The problem is that their take may not work for every body. It take some looking before you come across one that speaks to you.
the thing here is that i am not just looking for what "speaks to me".

i study ancient art to try and understand what spoke to them.
that matters to me, and in looking at many different pieces one starts to see conventions unfold. it is in these conventions that we get an idea of what the collective thought was back in that time, and that can be very instructive.