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Apollo and Dionysus- how do they relate? [Archive] - MysticWicks Online Pagan Community and Spiritual Sanctuary

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Fiamma
February 26th, 2008, 01:23 AM
I was going to start this about a week and a half ago, adfter interest was expressed in the topic over in the God of the week thread for Apollo (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=182789) as well as in a few pm's that I recieved.

I haven't forgotten it, I've really been trying to write some more about that and not gotten very far due to things like life going on and stuff taking up my brain....

So I'm going to start out with something that I wrote back in November. This is personal experience and UPG, though I keep finding interesting bits here and there, such as calling Apollo "Bakkhos" (a name also given to Dionysus) in Orphic hymn #34 (the text of the hymn can be found in the thread linked above), and their sharing of the sanctuary at Delphi.

Hmmm....this is interesting. For some weeks now, I've been expecting to wake up and feel like something was different, or amiss. Ever since the dream I had of Dionysus a few weeks ago, the Delphic split has been on my mind to one extent or another on a near constant basis, and it made sense that perhaps Dionysus was coming to take a more predominant part of my life for the moment, while Apollo would step back but that's not happened.

Dionysus hovers close, I am frequently reminded of his presence, though I don't actually need reminders. However, it seems that Apollo has drawn even closer. I sometimes wake up in the morning feeling a similar semi-delirious languor as I did when he stepped from the shadows during the Dionysus dream and pulled the arrow that he had just shot at me from my chest. When I'm awake, I feel a nearly-constant, almost tangible-presence.

I find it fascinating that each has been appearing in a manner more obviously appropriate to the other. In my mind, the ideas of balance and binary opposition- two opposites, without the other, one cannot exist- which have always been interesting to me have jumped much more to the forefront of my mind.

And then there is this theory which I recently ran across, I think while reading William Broad's book The Oracle: Ancient Delphi and the Science Behind Its Lost Secrets, mentioned only very briefly but still churning around in my mind since then, that some scholars have had the idea that Apollo and Dionysus are two halves of the same god. To be clear, I do not believe this but it is a fascinating idea and I can see where it could come from. The related idea that I have settled on for the moment as my understanding is not two halves of one whole...but more like two atoms sharing a covalent bond, connected by common threads, very difficult to separate one from the other.

I don't know. Maybe I'm experiencing some sort of between-time overlap. I'm working on a ritual to celebrate Lampteria next weekend. Maybe that will trigger a more seasonally-appropriate shift in my perception. Or another possible cause is that it's all connected to some things that have been going on with me that I'll not go into now (though I can suddenly see inspiring an interesting work of short fiction...) in that I need to be seeing this intricate connection of one and the other, two separate entities that cannot be wholly bisected- seasonal events be damned. Part of me is hoping that the first is true, part of me is hoping the second. In any event, the gods will do as they will, I will (hopefully) see what they want me to see.

Do I sound like a raving lunatic here? At the same time, it's making perfect sense to me...but sounding somewhat ludicrous as I reread the words.

And after someone suggested the idea of twins, without a whole lot of elaboration as to what was meant:

I hadn't thought of this in the sense of twins...and I don't actually think that that's what I'm thinking of here, but I'm not sure.

It's like....ummmm...different evolutions of the same little slice of the divine? In one way, they're so different, but if you go 359 degrees from one, you come to the other. All the difference is contained in that 360th degree. Small, but still there and if you look closely enough, you can see the same inner core...


If anyone has further thoughts on this, it is a topic of great interest to me and I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts, experiences etc on the matter.

Theres
February 26th, 2008, 12:20 PM
an interesting, and complex, question. i see a kind of paradoxical relationship between the two.

on the one hand They have some very obvious connections, such as Their temple, theater, etc.
then again you have two gods who represent two absolute opposite ends of the behavioral spectrum... one very disciplined and one widly ecstatic.
but perhaps these dichotomies too are connections of a sort?

Zephyrstorm
February 26th, 2008, 03:21 PM
But simultaneously, Dionysos is necessary for civilization to continue - I've heard tell that his rites may function as a pressure valve for the impulses that are normally buried.

I host a group of students of Dionysos on another site, and one of the members said this:
Apollo says "Know Thyself"
Dionysos says "Be Thyself"

Theres
February 26th, 2008, 03:38 PM
But simultaneously, Dionysos is necessary for civilization to continue - I've heard tell that his rites may function as a pressure valve for the impulses that are normally buried.

I host a group of students of Dionysos on another site, and one of the members said this:
Apollo says "Know Thyself"
Dionysos says "Be Thyself"
i agree completely (and i like that quote... ::): ).

i've been reading an interesting commentary on 'Works and Days' and the Greek harvest season. Hesiod published dire warnings against being lazy during the harvest/threshing season, likening "the man who lies abed by day" with the cicada, an association which has lived on in the harvest songs of modern Thrace, Rhodes, etc until this day. WD is replete with admonitions of this kind, and the ancient harvest season was a difficult time for the men-folk, with endless days and short nights and no relief for at least six weeks at a stretch, and often more. it was only through this kind of diligent work that the farmer could assure himself and his family of enough food to survive the year. any slacking now could prove fatal!

however Hesiod also speaks of the necessity to celebrate the successful harvest well, with feasts and drink and communal merriment.

perhaps then this is the physical manifestation of the the dichotomous pair?
perhaps the seasonal change of deity at Delphi is synonomous with this natural cycle, with Apollo ruling the longer work season and Dionysus playing through the winter.

i'm not sure i would've made that connection had this thread not popped up right as i was finishing that particular book though. hmmm...

eta;
oh, for the record...
'Heat and Lust; Hesiod's Midsummer Festival Scene Revisited' by J.C.B. Petropoulos (1994)

Twinkle
February 28th, 2008, 08:47 PM
In my opinion...Apollo is Discipline, Dionysus is Liberation, while they are at opposite ends of the spectrum, both are necessary to create balance.

patch
February 29th, 2008, 01:43 PM
Apollo has his thumbs in every godly pie xD
Recently I've been looking at his relationship with poseidon.

This is a thread I've really enjoyed reading :)

solinviticus
March 24th, 2008, 06:42 PM
Has someone been reading The Birth of Tragedy by Friedrich Nietzsche?

Fiamma
March 24th, 2008, 09:02 PM
Has someone been reading The Birth of Tragedy by Friedrich Nietzsche?


Hehehe...nope.

It's on my list though.

Right now, I'm reading The Greeks and the Irrational by ER Dodds

I found a poem this weekend by Hilda Doolittle titled Delphi. At first glance, it seems to be specifically about Apollo. But after reading it several times, I'm not entirely sure that it's not Apollo and Dionysus. But I'm not sure that it is either. It's really long (several pages), or I'd post it here.

Fiamma
March 24th, 2008, 09:05 PM
Apollo has his thumbs in every godly pie xD
Recently I've been looking at his relationship with poseidon.

This is a thread I've really enjoyed reading :)

I haven't seen much about Apollo and Poseidon, but I haven't really seen it from the Apollo side and had little cause to do extremely in-depth research on Poseidon. I'd be interested in reading whatever you've got though.

Twinkle
March 24th, 2008, 09:57 PM
Perhaps you will find this helpful:


According to Pausanias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pausanias_%28geographer%29), Poseidon was one of the caretakers of the oracle at Delphi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphic_oracle) before Olympian Apollo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo) took it over. Apollo and Poseidon worked closely in many realms: in colonization, for example, Delphic Apollo provided the authorization to go out and settle, while Poseidon watched over the colonists on their way, and provided the lustral water for the foundation-sacrifice. Xenophon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophon)'s Anabasis describes a group of Spartan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta) soldiers in 400-399 BCE singing to Poseidon a paean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paean) - a kind of hymn normally sung for Apollo.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon



From Pausanias:

From here the high road to Delphi becomes both steeper and more difficult for the walker. Many and different are the stories told about Delphi, and even more so about the oracle of Apollo. For they say that in the earliest times the oracular seat belonged to Earth, who appointed as prophetess at it Daphnis, one of the nymphs of the mountain. [6] There is extant among the Greeks an hexameter poem, the name of which is Eumolpia, and it is assigned to Musaeus, son of Antiophemus. In it the poet states that the oracle belonged to Poseidon and Earth in common; that Earth gave her oracles herself, but Poseidon used Pyrcon as his mouthpiece in giving responses. The verses are these:--
Forthwith the voice of the Earth-goddess uttered a wise word,
And with her Pyrcon, servant of the renowned Earth-shaker.

They say that afterwards Earth gave her share to Themis, who gave it to Apollo as a gift. It is said that he gave to Poseidon Calaureia, that lies off Troezen, in exchange for his oracle.

http://www.indiana.edu/~dmdhist/Pausaniasdelphi.htm

Theres
March 24th, 2008, 10:12 PM
nice dig Twinkle, thanks.

Twinkle
March 24th, 2008, 10:17 PM
I ran across it when I had been doing some reading on the Oracle at Delphi. I was glad to see that I could add something to the discussion here. I was unaware of the link between Poseidon and Apollo before that.

Theres
March 24th, 2008, 10:51 PM
nor was i, especially since They were on opposite sides during the Trojan War.