Do the Gods Change?

[S_Wodening]

A discussion on another thread got me to thinking, do the Gods and Godddesses change? I had always thought that they adapt and change with the times. Yet, it was brought to my attention that some feel they are timeless and unchanging. This to me seems alien to Germanic belief although it may well be true of other pagan religions. I think if the Ese (Aesir) and Wen (Vanir) are subject to Wyrd, they must change to survive. What do others think?

[Gyda]

I've always thought they adpt and chage with the tmes and the people who honour them. It's never made sense to me that they'd be static.


Gyda

[Against The Tide]

I think the Gods are static, but with infinate ways humes can interpret them our views of them change as we do.

[Xentor]

I've yet to see anything in our universe that is static... exception made for static electricity ;)

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I think of the gods / goddess as being both dynamic and static in nature. I see them as statis (unchanging) in their capacity to exist. They exist today as they existed in the past and will exist in the future, that being my perspective so others may differ.

However, I also see them as dynamic (changing). Dynamic, in that thier connection to us will change as man (collectively) changes as we advance and evolve. As we change our social, moral and ethical values to match our current world condition I believe they recognize those changes and accept the changes that must follow in our method of recognizing and worshiping them.

In many ways I think people think the actual item sacrificed or dedicated to the god / godees is what mattered to them. I personaly believe it was the energy and intent of the sacrifice or dedication that maters. Given that I believe we can not destroy or create energy but only modify it's charge, then it seems logical to me that the god (s) / goddess (es) would take the energy of the event vice the physical item of the event.

In that light, I do not see any true change in man's ability to modify energy that is being charged in honor of the gods / goddesses. Yes the physical methods used change by century but not the results of energy modification. Of course this again is all my opinion.

[Xentor]

I think of the gods / goddess as being both dynamic and static in nature. I see them as statis (unchanging) in their capacity to exist. They exist today as they existed in the past and will exist in the future, that being my perspective so others may differ.

That'd mean that there is no possibility for the emergence of new gods, nor for the disappearing of existing ones.

I disagree.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I disagree.

Since I believe that energy ie life can not be created or destroyed it can only be changed it provides the means for the creation of new gods and the destruction of old gods.

It is in the changing of the life force that I think man creates or destroys thier god / goddess figures. The charasterics of an energy signature would simply fade until a new signature is imposed upon an unformated energy.

So the elder gods of early civilizaiton are lost to the sands of time. Yet thier energy is constant, so when no longer known the energy fades to a null status until a new god / goddess form emerges to take shape in the energy.

Of course that is my opinion so others may differ. However, I think the older signatures are reasons some gods / goddesses have atributes or similarities of elder gods that carry accross the ages. Echoes of the older usuge and identy as man recalls them stamped upon the regenerating form appearing later.

[aluokaloo]

I think that Gods are like people, they have their core personalities whether it's party hardy or bad ass or easy going or whatever and they have learned behaviors and attitudes too as the ages have passed by.

[S_Wodening]

Hmm, I never counted on this discussion becoming so interesting. I have to agree, I think old Gods can be destroyed and new ones born. It is a part of Norse myth, Ragnarok, and shows that apparently the ancient Heathens though so also. As to the Gods themselves, as I said I think they change and adapt much as we do. Some things I think such as their values, perhaps their pesonalities, and such are constant, but for the most part they can adapt. Looking back at my own life, I see how I have changed and adapted as technology and society changed. As Mankind is ever changing I think the deities change with them.

I do not think the old Gods are lost however. They went on existing, perhaps even helping Man unseen for no thanks. I attribute the comeback of Germanic Heathenry for example to the ancient Germanic Gods. I think it was their hands that prompted Steven McNallen for example to bring back Asatru in the 70s in the USA, and the same of the Icelanders within a year or two, and the Odnic Rite in England. They will go on living and existing until the time of Ragnarok.

[Against The Tide]

Talking about Gods 'changing to survive' and the death and birth of Gods makes them sound so frail and temporary - what makes a God a God if not for being immortal (as in can't age/be killed)? Any other creature in this universe can learn and have the power to change all that is around them.

[Hærfest Leah]

The gods are not exempt from wyrd in my opinion, therefore they must change with it, the times and their descendants.

[Halstrom]

Saying that the gods are static and don't change with the times doesn't make any sense to me. Why wouldn't their domain grow as our technology grew.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Just for discussion but placing the ability to be killed, fade or be forgotten as an identifier for the gods seems to be an effort to place them within our physical constraints. To subject them to the forgone conclusion that as we must eventually die so to must the gods we believe in.

Reminds me of a line from the movie Excalibur "Make a circle to remember for it is the bane of man that he is doomed to forget." Not quoted exactly but near as I recall at the moment. But it does hold to the concept of Ragnarok, the gods will seem to die for we will forget them, the battle possibly being thier battle to survive in a world that grows away from them and becomes more of something else. Technological? Civilized? Mechanized? , who knowns for sure, but we can be sure it's not the world that man first came to know them in.

I also wonder about the concept that as we change so to must the gods. If we get more technological then so to must the gods. Maybe in realility for the gods to see us maybe they have to step down for they are already so far above us that we seem like children to their level of development.

It seems to make as much sense to assume they must change for and with us as it is to say we must change to speak to a waring headhunter. We step down to their level to understand and communicate, they do not step up to ours. Over time they will advance to ours hopefuly, but in action as the group above we step down to them to understand and relate.

[Theres]

Saying that the gods are static and don't change with the times doesn't make any sense to me. Why wouldn't their domain grow as our technology grew.
and yet this makes no sense to me.
everything we can ever know, do, invent or accomplish is already within Their domain. after all, They're gods!

so why should They need to change... to keep up with us?

[Xentor]

I tend to define gods as those having most influence in a region. As we advance, their influence dwindles. They must grow, lest they stop being gods.

[S_Wodening]

Well, going back to the Norse myths I think it is apparent that the Gods learn and grow. We are told in the Eddas that Odin learned seidhr from Freya, and that he won the knowledge of the runes.

[Against The Tide]

and yet this makes no sense to me.
everything we can ever know, do, invent or accomplish is already within Their domain. after all, They're gods!

so why should They need to change... to keep us with us?

I agree. To assume that the Gods will die when we stop believing in them is a bit vain. Are they like fairies in Peter Pan? Do we clap our hands and say 'I believe in God' and they start popping out of nowhere and taking root?

The Gods were here before us, the Gods will be here after. Do they need worship (influence) to be powerful in their realm? Isn't that a bit of a shortfall, at least, if no one believed in me, I'd still exist and be just as capable.

No, I think that the Gods have been here since before the beggining and will be here after the end. How can they change if they are powerful, all knowing, all seeing entities already?

Thats why I believe that Gods are static constants, and it is only we, the observer that changes, and thus its easy to mistake our change as theirs. Like those who used to believe that the Sun went around the Earth.

[Tanya]

I think it is rather WE who change.

I remember watching the moon one long night journey when I was 4. I thought the moon followed me all the way..

lol....

it is easy to forget how very SMALL we are.

[Against The Tide]

I think it is rather WE who change.

I remember watching the moon one long night journey when I was 4. I thought the moon followed me all the way..

lol....

it is easy to forget how very SMALL we are.

No it really DID follow you... ;)

(I remember the moon following me too, and when it hid behind the trees I was looking out for it)

[David19]

Hmm, I never counted on this discussion becoming so interesting. I have to agree, I think old Gods can be destroyed and new ones born. It is a part of Norse myth, Ragnarok, and shows that apparently the ancient Heathens though so also. As to the Gods themselves, as I said I think they change and adapt much as we do. Some things I think such as their values, perhaps their pesonalities, and such are constant, but for the most part they can adapt. Looking back at my own life, I see how I have changed and adapted as technology and society changed. As Mankind is ever changing I think the deities change with them.

I do not think the old Gods are lost however. They went on existing, perhaps even helping Man unseen for no thanks. I attribute the comeback of Germanic Heathenry for example to the ancient Germanic Gods. I think it was their hands that prompted Steven McNallen for example to bring back Asatru in the 70s in the USA, and the same of the Icelanders within a year or two, and the Odnic Rite in England. They will go on living and existing until the time of Ragnarok.

I agree with you, I think the Gods do change and adapt. I can't speak for the Germanic Gods, but, for the Sumerian Gods, from what I know about them and what I've been told by a guy I really respect, is that they do change. Civilization is very important to the Sumerian Gods and they work to advance it (there's a reason why Sumer is called the first and oldest civilization), just as the concepts of civilization change, so do the Gods, maybe even the Gods influence those changes too. I also think that the Gods can gain new attributes, for example, Gibil is the Sumerian God of fire and messages (he's responsible for taking the essence of the burnt offerings up the Gods), he seems to be, in the modern times, a God of communication, the internet, and among other things, and there are many other examples too, etc.

Also, think of YHWH, he has changed, for example, in quite a few Jewish myths, he can lose his temper quite a bit (which is bad for humans), and while his personality may be similar to back then, he seems to have calmed down a bit more.

So, yes, I definantly agree with you that the Gods can and do change. Some Gods can, at least in the Sumerian pantheon, become even more powerful than they were in ancient times (and the opposite is true too, like they might become weaker, in status if nothing else), etc.

I also agree with you that the Gods could be responsible for advancements in society, and that they don't need the beliefs of people to exist. Like I said, the Sumerian Gods work to advance civilization, so, from what I'm told and feel, I think they have been behind some of the changes that have happened in the modern world.

[David19]

Talking about Gods 'changing to survive' and the death and birth of Gods makes them sound so frail and temporary - what makes a God a God if not for being immortal (as in can't age/be killed)?

Sometimes what is a God for one person may not be for another, for example, you think that Gods are immortal (can't be killed or grow old, etc), and while that can be true for some Gods, it's not true for all of them, for example, the Norse Gods can be killed (the Ragnarok prophecy shows that) and, any Heathens please correct me, but I think they can also age too, that's why they have to eat golden apples to keep themselves young or something like that.

Also, in the Sumerian religion and mythology, some Gods can die, granted, it, IMO, takes a lot of effort and power (same for all Gods, really), but a few of them can and have died (although what's death for mortals and death for Gods may be quite different, again, that's my own personal opinion as I think death affects Gods and mortals differently). Inanna was technically "killed" and turned into a rotting corpse when she attempted to take over Kur (the underworld) from Ereshkigal, Dumuzi, technically, "dies" when he has to descend into Kur to take Inanna's place (and the same is true for his sister as she takes his place in one 1/2 of the year), etc.

That said, for most Gods, death doesn't seem to bother them that much, some can have their head cut off if one myth and in the next scene, be walking around normally, etc.

And, finally, like I said, what's a God for one person may be different to other people, like Lilith is a Goddess to some people, but is a demon to others (personally, I see her as a demon who managed to rise in power to achieve the status of Godhood), etc.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I find it ironic that we assume that since man has changed and our persceptions of our gods have changed over time that the gods / goddesses them selves must have changed or evolved.

It would seem quite logical that as man grows and becomes more civilized that his / her gods / goddess would do so also. Those traits that run counter to our (collective our) beliefs or social defining classification should be dropped or changed to reflect what we see in ourselves and thus would assume our gods / goddess to reflect.

If we love peace it would only be logical that our gods / goddess would reflect that social position. Even the most deadly and corrupt would been seen to develope either a peaceful demeaner or they would be dropped from the mythos to a great extent. Histories and stories which support our collective position are maintained while those that counter it are lost or sliced and diced to make them seem to support it.

If one looks to many examples of re-discovery within the Pagan / Heathen community it is rampant with gods / goddess that are changed even now to reflect what the group wants to believe vice what may be written about him / her.

I think many of the gods / goddess are still just as corrupt or manipulative or self centered as was once believed but humanity needs to dis-believe or acknowledge those traits as they try to keep thier ability to believe up to date with thier social stigma and social order.

I personaly think we do a great disservice to ourselves and the gods / goddesses when we try to make them fit the mold of our social , political, morale, and civil changes. I believe it is correct to worship or honor them under the guise of our modern world but we should also remember that just because the advancement of man has accepted a certain goal does not mean that is the same goal the gods / goddess have accepted.

YHWH is still hot tempered but it wouldn't make him viable to expanison if he wasn't changed to meet the social expectations of each new grouping. He was changed to sell the product just like the others where changed to sell the product when introduced to a new area, or undermined over time.

[Stoirmeacha]

I think the Gods may be too complex for us to understand, yet. Though, change is a very good possibilty.

[Xentor]

We don't have to mold them, though I'm sure some of us try. Let me explain why I think so.

My path has it, that we exist in our human form because we can do something the gods cannot. Otherwise they would've done it, instead of wasting the energy on us. That means that we learn things they can't learn themselves. We ourselves use other things and beings in a similar manner. Compare it to the probe sent into the sewer to find a blockage where a human body doesn't fit. Compare it to using pigeons in helicopters to spot people at far greater distances than humans can see. Compare it to the budgies brought down into the mines to detect carbon monoxide before humans start dying off.

If those things and beings change, we necessarily must change along. Especially with animals and plants. For if we don't, we die. The system that lock all of us together is too interdependent to allow us to steer our own course. If we'd try, we run a good chance of getting expelled.

My path has it, that we are in a similar interdependence with the gods. After all, they are made from energy and / or matter, just like us. If we weren't interdependent, they wouldn't be able to influence us, and our prayers and worship would be a waste of time. Since we depend on each other, and all parts of an interdependent system must either change altogether or remain static altogether, and we already established that we change, so must they.

[Against The Tide]

Thats a really good way of putting it Xentor. I still see things differently but I am very happy comming away with your (very valid) angle on things.

Reminds me of the Star Trek TNG episode when Data talks about a kettle always taking the same amount of time to boil regaurdless of whether its watched or not. Once he was convinced to turn his inbuilt clock off he learnt a valuable lesson.

Maybe we are all trying to tune into the devine, comprehend the infinate, the devine is tuning into US, to explore feelings they wouldn't be able to have as Gods.

[blackroseivy]

As living beings, they evolve over time as we do - as archetypes, they remain timeless. So I think that it's a paradox.

1 thing I have done in my own path, is to relate the old Gods & Goddesses - the more powerful ones - to the heirarchy of angels. This relates to hermeticism & is certainly not an unprecedented idea. :)

John Michael Greer has a very interesting book called "Monsters", which is about all manner of supernatural being. Though I have about 2 really major arguments with him, I'd say about 98% of it is most fascinating & gives a great deal of insight into how the non-human universe works, & what the denizens of it are about.

He gives a fascinating account about a woman in England who called in to a radio discussion about UFO encounters in the area; she described her own experience, but it turned out that the seemingly sentient light that she saw in the sky, which seemed to be fully aware of her, watching her & trying to communicate in some way, was in fact the planet Venus.

Greer's answer to this was simple: Venus WAS sentient, watching her, & trying to communicate in some way. It is called an "intelligence" - an angel - a god or goddess, call it what you will. But at any rate, if they can be so present even to the modern-day mind, surely they change their form in ways that will enable the modern mind to perceive them, & feel their power even when they are unaware that this is what is actually happening.

I actually feel that the true nature of what we call Gods & Goddesses is pretty much out of our comprehension - or very nearly. We touch on an understanding, but it is a subjective as well as objective phenomenon, just as we learn with quantum physics. Not only the divine powers, but the entire universe is subject to these rules.

[cesara]

They exist today as they existed in the past and will exist in the future, that being my perspective so others may differ.



Since we depend on each other, and all parts of an interdependent system must either change altogether or remain static altogether, and we already established that we change, so must they.

The responses thus far are interesting because I haven't seen one person suggest that the Gods are beyond the limitations of the 4th dimension: Time.

The Gods existed in the past, exist today, and DO exist in the future.....

If I were to speculate, I'd have to say that they simply use different means to interact with humans at different moments in time. I would consider this similar to how a teacher will use different techniques to teach different children. One child might learn best visually, while another, aurally. This doesn't mean that the teacher has changed, just that they are aware of the different needs of the children and adapts their techniques to accomodate the child.

This is the biggest reason why a Recon path is just not for me. I feel the Gods accommodate the ancients (and still do!) revealing that which they can relate to, that the Gods accommodate us, in 2008 revealing that which we can relate to, and that the Gods accommodate future generations, revealing that which they can relate to.

They are static, but also infinite. They are beyond time.

[cesara]

Hmm, I never counted on this discussion becoming so interesting.

It IS interesting! Thanks!

And I also just wanted to thank you for your well thought out post in the other thread, as, unfortunately, I couldn't find the time to respond this week.

[Gemyndig]

I'm of the opinion that gods do change in a sense, that they can "die", but i see such a "death" as perhaps simply them entering a state of dormancy. We're told that many of the gods do die at Ragnarok but we're not really told if they're "dead forever" or just awaiting their alloted time to return, as Balder returns (if one god can come back then maybe others can too?) Actually, looking at other indo-european mythologies, the theme of dying gods is present there too, but they do re-emerge usually to live another day (and it's usually the means by which they gain certain powers, such as Woden seems to "die" as part of his ordeal hanging from the world tree to gain the runes. Another example is the Hindu Shiva, who drank all the poisons of the world to gain wisdom).

My view of gods is also that they are beyond the constraints of our regular human perceptions. Therefor we need mythic tales to provide allegories our minds can grasp so we can gain even a little understanding of the mysteries of the Holy. We do have evidence in Germanic lore of people treating the gods' places and other holy areas with quite a degree of reverential awe (Tacitus mentions this) and such were set apart and subject to special rules of entry and conduct within them. This, for me, speaks volumes about how they were viewed - i suspect that in reality the gods are vastly, vastly powerful and we might actually know them little.


As others have mentioned, the gods are subject to Wyrd, who we're told in an AS poem is "strongest of all", so therefor they're subject to some kind of evolutionary process overseen by another power. I'm just wondering if Wyrd is really the only being that doesn't actually change, is utterly beyond such, standing behind everything else as the "organ grinder". Hmm, this thread's really got me thinking now!:ballonsmi


PS - I think Cesara does have a point about the gods as teachers - even though i do believe they're subject to inevitable change processes i do think that there is something to the idea that they deliberately alter their methods somewhat to suit new "students" and times.