About spirits and gods

[AsterdiS]

I'm a shaman. I talk to spirits all the time...
I've felt and experienced a lot of spirits, but none I have positively identified as an ancestor, no.

They all "feel" current to me.

But the most overwhelming I've encountered is my own, my Shadow, as I became "it", as I became Me. I rose above the Earth, "above" the sun, the stars itself and walked the path of the firespitting dragons.
Even beyond universes. Beyond labels, beyond rainbows. I was born and reborn a million times, as I experienced everything I've ever done, ever felt, ever seen. Every thought, every action, every emotions, every passionate moment.
The Universe is unborn, unending and Vast beyond words, so complex, so simple and Timeless. The passing of Time, the non-existence
of time makes us... Us.

There was/is no need for gods.

To me, even the mythic "existence" of gods is denigrating humanity, is lessening us all.

We put ourselves in chains, transferring power to anyone that may strike our fancy. We have lived ten thousand years in the insane mire of our own waste.
It's about time we stopped.

Amos The Unending

[Myst]

Bit of an ego thing you have going there huh?

Yeah I wish we were all as strong as you seem to think you/we are, but I've got news for you, we aren't. You can't create nor destroy life at will, nor create nor destroy species or planets. That is the essence of God, giving and taking life, and it isn't within our sphere at all.

As Pagans we don't "submit to Gods" or put our faith in whatever comes along hoping there's a higher power. We know we are not alone here, nor are we the baddest mofo's on the block. As far as I'm concerned deity provides kinship and guidance. There need not be ego involved. I'm sure you'll understand my skepticism anyway - if you've never even spoken to ancestors, who's to say you've been privy to the voice or power of God? You admit you have not seen or done all, so why assume those of us who have had experiences with deity must be wrong?

No no one "needs" deity, I think we're all aware of that. We have after all made it this far without working with one, at least without the bible and a priest between :) If you don't want to work with deity that's great. I will, however, keep my experiences with the awesome power of Hekate and Aset thanks :D

[Eeluna]

Asterdis,

Sounds like you've had some amazing and wonderful experiences. Thanks for sharing them, but please realize that what is *true* for you will not be *true* for everyone else. I believe each person experiences the truths of the Universe in the way best suited to their personality--their deepest self. No two people can view Divinity in exactly the same way. That's why it is so important to be respectful of other people's beliefs. Many wars have been fought (are still being fought) because one group insists that their way is the "One True Way".

[Mithrea]

I've read this post many, many times now. All I can say is that is an *interesting* take on things. Do you think your beliefs are related to atheism in any way? I'm not sure you can be a atheist shaman :huh:

[AsterdiS]

To all three of you "above"...

Thanks.

I like to think I've "risen above" most labels.

But I do think it is possible to be both an atheist and a shaman. And a witch for that matter.

I do certainly belive there are spirits.

I don't believe I have any more right to an exclusive view on The Universe than anybody else. That was actually one of several points I made.

I do feel very strongly that there are no gods. Other inteligences, yes, certainly, but no one wiser or "better" than us. Not aliens, not any of any higher elevation. Reality doesn't work that way, fortunately so. And I say again: Beliefs in gods have ****ed up this world thoroughly.
People can certainly claim tha their gods, their beliefs in gods are better than those of another denomination, but I don't believe tham.

And lastly: We humans are certainly capable of destroying life. As for creation of Life: One thing and one thing only did that: Time. No supreme being(s) was/were involved.

As for strength and weakness: So you do agree with me that "weakness" is our reason for needing gods?That's good. Why don't you then take the next logical step, too?

In the beginning fear created the gods.

http://www.midnight-fire.net/civilization/tumor.html

btw I believe "strength" and "weakness" are just more labeling. No human or being is only strong or only weak, if those words have any real meaning or signifigance what so ever. We are each or us, an entire specter of facets and emotions. Each person is potentially many.

In other words: It is interesting that you (one of you at least) interpreted my post to be a claim for strenght, when I "thought" it was about human's boundless curiosity and discovery of Self...
We are wonderful creatures. There is really no need for gods. On the contrary: The very belief in "higher" beings is detrimental to our Life and Growth.

Well, my experience is that people defending their chosen pantheon get more than a bit defensive when their beliefs are challenged...

Amos the Witch, the Pagan and about a thousand other labels.

edited for content by Myst

[Myst]

Time did not create life. Time is a dimension and used to measure change, not a creator.


As for strength and weakness: So you do agree with me that "weakness" is our reason for needing gods?That's good. Why don't you then take the next logical step, too?

No, as I pointed out, none of us need gods. Some of us look to them for guidance, support, and knowledge. I certainly don't recall saying people need gods because they are weak. Nor did I say people were "only strong" or "only weak" either.

I of all people know they aren't there to make someone strong, and that people can't create or destroy life.

[Mithrea]

First of all, I don't think you need to cuss like that in a post. Second of all, while I thought your first post was a little over the top, the second one was just plain hateful.


As for strength and weakness: So you do agree with me that "weakness" is our reason for needing gods?That's good. Why don't you then take the next logical step, too?

Because that is NOT logic you are using, it's ego.

And I think it's a tad odd that you think we are such wonderful, endless, boundless people and yet you believe that the way we organize ourselves (civilization) is like a tumor. If we are so smart and wonderful, why don't we think of something better, eh?

And hey, before you get your nickers in a bunch, I'm not saying that I'm sure I believe there are deities either. But I am sure I'm not going to completely discount the fact that there might be or belittle other people for believing so. You claim you aren't attacking people for believing in gods, but you really are whether you believe it or not.


Edited for typos (darn broken finger ;) )

[MistOfTheSea86]

You have your beliefs and we have ours. They differ but in the end, at least I believe, it won't really matter. You don't believe they are gods. We do. You don't believe in Eating Cheese (Example only) Someone does. Does that make it wrong or right? *Shakes head*

I believe that we are much too diverse for one person to be right.

So believe in your spirits
and I will be believe in my gods.

[Semele]

Well, I had a very nice, eloquent post typed up and the computer went nuts, so to summarize, here are the highlights.

#1: The original post was not rude in my opinion, just taken perhaps the wrong way and jumped on by a few members who found offense at this persons own ideas and beliefs...wtf??

#2: If someone is sharing their experiences with us, the last thing we should do is call them egotistical...I mean, if I shared some of my personal experiences is that how I would be treated? To tell someone that what they are proclaiming to be is not possible...atheist shaman (which incidentally was not claimed until after the label was given) is just wrong. We had this whole discussion on Christian Wicca a while back and my feelings stand firm. Noone is in the position to tell anyone else that they cannot be anything or do anything that they desire. I may call myself a Catholic rabbi...you may disagree with me as to whether or not it is possible, but point blank if I believe it...then your lack of belief, no matter how vocal, doesn't touch my faith.

Not to sound too protective, but I just think it is a little strange to see a group of very open-minded people getting so worked up over someone's ideas. Does AsterdiS' lack of belief in diety really affect us in any way? No, not any more than some of our belief in Diety seems to affect him/her. I think that perhaps this poster is a little higher evolved than some of us...at least in the tolorance department. He/she could have been stating the doctrine of the holy order of lobsters and raccons as dieties and I think I would have more respect for the way this person chose to present the information, than for the way the veteran members of MW reacted to that info. There is but one rule of the community, lest we forget.

[Haedis]

I think it was more the tone of AsterdiS' posts that was upsetting, rather than the conflicting beliefs, (atleast it was to me). Its possible to state viewpoints that many do not believe in WITHOUT degrading those other people. Instead many of the things s/he stated didnt just present his ideas, they condemned other viewpoints as well, which to me is disrespectful, egotism or not.

[Semele]

Originally posted by Haedis
Its possible to state viewpoints that many do not believe in WITHOUT degrading those other people.

Exactly, and it is just as easy to defend your own beliefs without being degrading. I think that perhaps the original post was taken a bit more harshly than intended as often happens in this medium. I also think that AsterdiS tried to clear up some of the misconceptions, ie that s/he was claiming strength when it was the opposite point trying to be made. Also take a look at this quote:


"I don't believe I have any more right to an exclusive view on The Universe than anybody else. That was actually one of several points I made."

It certainly sounds to me as if AsterdiS is trying to remain very civil and level-headed about this and is showing a great deal of self-discipline in my eyes.

[*~*Chary*~*]

Originally posted by Semele:

Exactly, and it is just as easy to defend your own beliefs without being degrading.

In that light i would like to comment on this.


But the most overwhelming I've encountered is my own, my Shadow, as I became "it", as I became Me. I rose above the Earth, "above" the sun, the stars itself and walked the path of the firespitting dragons.

Perhaps this was not meant to sound this way, and i am not critiscing, but the way this comes across does sound to be slightly egotistical. and so i can see where Myst was coming from on that.


There was/is no need for gods

Again this is your oppinion, and i don't think anyone here will disagree in that we dont need god's however many people choose to be guided by them and to form bonds and friendships with the Gods and many of us choose to work with the God's. We may call on them in our time of need for support and perhaps a little help, and this is our choice and again our beliefs on the dieties are just that ours are they wrong or are they right, they are neither as they are what we believe.


To me, even the mythic "existence" of gods is denigrating humanity, is lessening us all.

As you say this is your belief, however i think that many people here, including myself, will disagree with you. i perosnally do not believe that the existence of gods is lessening us, conversely, the God's help to guide us on our paths, and in a way help us to achieve some sort of spiritual balance. My belief in the gods has held me strong in the most demanding of situations and i personally fail to see how that can have any bad implications. To me the Gods strengthen me and hold me firm in times that i am lacking in self-belief or confidence.


We put ourselves in chains, transferring power to anyone that may strike our fancy. We have lived ten thousand years in the insane mire of our own waste.
It's about time we stopped.

Again this is your oppinion. I must disagree in that i do not transfer my power to anyone. My power is my own and it comes from inside of me. Have we really created waste and wallowed in it. Personally i believe not. We have created large societies and we have improved the standards of lives, improved health, improved and lengthened our life-spans, achieved an intelligence to rival any other species. Waste? - in my oppinion and i am sure in many others No !


but no one wiser or "better" than us

Well if there are wiser people than me in our own species, which believe me there are, why not in any other race or species ?


Beliefs in gods have ****ed up this world thoroughly.

Again i am not saying this is wrong or proposterous but please provide me with some examples


And lastly: We humans are certainly capable of destroying life. As for creation of Life: One thing and one thing only did that: Time. No supreme being(s) was/were involved.

As myst said time does not create, time is a human label used to measure change and is the indefinite continous progress of past, present and future events etc regarded as a whole. It is not a creator.


There is really no need for gods. On the contrary: The very belief in "higher" beings is detrimental to our Life and Growth.

Again i disagree, could you please provide me with some evidence or situations to back this up.


Well, my experience is that people defending their chosen pantheon get more than a bit defensive when their beliefs are challenged...

Doesn't everyone ? NO-ONE and i mean NO-ONE has the right to tell us our beliefs are wrong as there is no concrete evidence to prove that they are wrong OR right just as their is no evidence to prove that your beliefs are wrong or right either.


You have your beliefs and we have ours. They differ but in the end, at least I believe, it won't really matter. You don't believe they are gods. We do. You don't believe in Eating Cheese (Example only) Someone does. Does that make it wrong or right? *Shakes head*

That helps to support my previous statement, thankyou Mist


Also asterdiS i am perfectly happy to discuss this, i am not saying you are wrong, and i am not saying i am right. I would find it interesting to hear more of your beliefs

Chary xxx

***edited July 30 2002 20.33GMT to edit spelling mistakes ***

[Myst]

Originally posted by Mithrea
I'm not sure you can be a atheist shaman :huh:

I'm pretty sure that says "I'm not sure", not "you can't be", thus that makes it someone's an opinion and no it doesn't mean Mithrea told him he can't be an atheist shaman.

Besides that, last time I tried to moderate a thread in here I was told by mol that heated discussions happen here and that it's ok for people to argue the validity of their beliefs, which is what we're doing.

[*~*Chary*~*]

I'm pretty sure that says "I'm not sure", not "you can't be", thus that makes it someone's an opinion and no it doesn't mean Mithrea told him he can't be an atheist shaman.


I have to say i agree !

[Mithrea]

Originally posted by Mithrea
I've read this post many, many times now. All I can say is that is an *interesting* take on things. Do you think your beliefs are related to atheism in any way? I'm not sure you can be a atheist shaman :huh:


First of all, these are two questions. I didn't put a question mark at the end of the second, I used a smiley and I apologize if it was taken as an attempt to label anyone. That was not my intention at all. I was merely searching for a little clarification because from the original post I was not sure how the two worldviews fit together. In my mind they don't. And I wasn't sure that atheism is what AsterdiS was describing anyway. I was not offended by this post and I wasn't intending to "jump on" anyone.

But after I read the second post, when I read the comments that we are illogical and weak for believing in gods and that that belief has "f*****d up the world, I did not feel respected at all. I apologize that I responded in kind out of being offended and so quickly. I should have waited until I calmed down. However reading it the day after, my response to the post is the same, I just might not have posted it. As I believe Haedis to be saying, it's mostly the tone and the condemnation of *my* beliefs that gets me, not his/her beliefs themselves. I believe they are just as free to not believe as I am to believe.

It is still my personal opinion, my belief, that to believe we have no need for deities is egotistical. I mean "ego" in the sense of pride and self worth not in the sense of conceit. It's a perfectly acceptable use of the term. I look at the things that go on in this world and I can't see that we should have that kind of pride because look at the things we create, destroy and mutilate. Which is something that goes along with what AsterdiS says about civilization, yet I come to a different conclusion. I see that we are extremely weak and selfish and therefore, I *hope* there is something better than me out there.

But the bottom line is that the bent of both of AsterdiS' posts is that my belief in a deity is wrong. I have still not ever said that his/her belief that there are no deities is wrong. In fact I said:


I'm not saying that I'm sure I believe there are deities either. But I am sure I'm not going to completely discount the fact that there might be or belittle other people for believing so.

And I stand by that. Don't tell me I'm wrong and I won't tell you you are wrong. No scratch that. I won't tell you you are wrong even if you think I'm wrong. But I will ask for clarification so that we can discuss as Chary has attempted to continue.

I apologize again for being so offensive.


*edited again for typos :( *

[widukind]

AsterdiS,

While I respect your views and cannot claim to fully comprehend them from the two posts in here, I get the impression that you assume that belief in deities always results in blind obedience or dedicated service to those very deities. That isn't true. You might want to check this poll (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16714) on that issue. Furthermore, some will claim that talking to spirits is in fact talking to a neglected part of the self or to figments of the imagination. I don't, but we all have our opinions.

[Myst]

Originally posted by widukind
Furthermore, some will claim that talking to spirits is in fact talking to a neglected part of the self or to figments of the imagination. I don't, but we all have our opinions.

This is absolutely true. Certainly any random passerby might think us all crazy and that we've degraded ourselves by believing any of this at all. Interesting how perspectives can be so important, and yet in the end we know, as Semele said, it doesn't really matter what someone else thinks of what we believe.

[Semele]

Myst,
I most certainly wasn't attempting to moderate...just playing devil's advocate because I thought perhaps some of the comments made were being taken the wrong way, on all parts. I know you well enough to fully understand what you were trying to say! :D

Mithrea,
Thanks for clearing up the meaning of the ego comment...I must admit I had taken it quite differently.

Chary,
You quoted an exerpt from asterdiS' post about him becoming his shadow, him self and rising above the earth...you used that as an example of him being egotistical. Perhaps...but I don't think you fully grasp what he is trying to describe here. To me it sounds as if he is speaking of deep meditation and astral travel. These can be very powerful experiences, and yes, they can make you aware of things you never knew possible. Gifts from a diety? Maybe, maybe not. Personally I have experienced such awesome awareness and closeness and energy exchange that I do feel most of the time to be an equal to God/Goddess/Allmighty. Not because I have made it so, but because it has always been intended to be so and I was/am finally able to accept it.

In fact, friends, I guess I really have a lot in common with AsterdiS, although I would perhaps phrase things a little differently, or not at all. No, I don't claim that Diety or the belief in Diety has f@#$ed up the world...I give that glory in part to RELIGION.

I do agree with AsterdiS also on the comment that, yes, Man can and does destroy life as well as create life...both can be equally damaging, in my opinion.

Perhaps Gods were created out of Fear...who is to say? Maybe it is just that in times of fear, people listen and pay attention more.

So, perhaps AsterdiS can give us some more insight into how he came to these conclusions in life, I for one would be very interested.

[Myst]

Originally posted by Semele
I do agree with AsterdiS also on the comment that, yes, Man can and does destroy life as well as create life...both can be equally damaging, in my opinion

I don't, and never will, and I'm sure you know exactly why. I certainly didn't have the "strength" or "power" to choose whether life continued or not, nor do any of us really have control on when life is begun or ended. Even if you shoot someone point blank in the face or spend years planning around fertility cycles, I'm sure you know as well as I do that we don't have authority on life.

[*~*Chary*~*]

Chary,
You quoted an exerpt from asterdiS' post about him becoming his shadow, him self and rising above the earth...you used that as an example of him being egotistical. Perhaps...but I don't think you fully grasp what he is trying to describe here. To me it sounds as if he is speaking of deep meditation and astral travel. These can be very powerful experiences, and yes, they can make you aware of things you never knew possible. Gifts from a diety? Maybe, maybe not.

Yes, now that i think back on it, i do see what you are saying, and perhaps it was a fault of mine for not realising this sooner, however, my feelings still stand that at least on a first read or even a second this does sound to be slightly egotistical - i'm not saying it is egotistical just that it came across like that, although now i have thought on it i can grasp the concept of what he is saying far bettre :)


Personally I have experienced such awesome awareness and closeness and energy exchange that I do feel most of the time to be an equal to God/Goddess/Allmighty. Not because I have made it so, but because it has always been intended to be so and I was/am finally able to accept it.

Sounds like you've had some pretty awesome experiences :D :)
(oh and that was a sincere commment - some of my posts seem to come acroos in a rather sarcastic manner - they aren't intended to be) I've had some pretty powerful experiences myself but never to the extent i would consider myself a God/Goddess/Almighty but as has been said before it's all down to personal experience i guess.


So, perhaps AsterdiS can give us some more insight into how he came to these conclusions in life, I for one would be very interested.

As would i :)

Oh and widukind,
Thanx for that link, i hadn't seen that one before, i'll check it out in a bit :):)

Love
Chary xxx

[Semele]

Originally posted by Myst


I don't, and never will, and I'm sure you know exactly why. I certainly didn't have the "strength" or "power" to choose whether life continued or not, nor do any of us really have control on when life is begun or ended. Even if you shoot someone point blank in the face or spend years planning around fertility cycles, I'm sure you know as well as I do that we don't have authority on life.

(((((Myst)))))

I did not mean to be insensitive. However, I do still feel that some folks, for whatever reason, do seem to be able to easily produce life and take it away with little or no obvious consequences, and certainly without having to prove themselves worthy to the public eye. In fact this is a conversation Mol and I had the other day and he got rather annoyed with me. I was complaining about the fact that some folks just seem to pop kids out willy-nilly and then have no responsibility for raising them with love and such and how some of the most awesome would-be parents have to struggle for years and are sometimes still not successful. Mol said I was looking at the bleak side of things and that sometimes the fertile people who are having so many damn kids really do love them and want them and conversly some folks that are unable to have kids do not want them anyway. We just basically listened to each other and went on believing our own thing.

My point is, I think I have one....;) humans, as well as Diety, as I see it, can take life. The only difference is when it is an act of a Diety, ie, natural causes, freak accident, whatever, we tend to think that there were some noble devine reason for the loss and that we have a lesson to learn from the experience of losing someone we love. Even if another human takes the life of our loved ones, we often try to associate it with an act from Diety...again for our own good. The mysterious workings of God Allmighty. More and more I believe this less and less and quite frankly it frightens me very much because I am not sure how to feel or react to things. I can tell myself...Karma will prevail and the person/feeling/spirit/whatever that caused this tragedy will get it back. Someone I respect a great deal once told me that Karmic retribution only happens if you think it will, meaning I could hit you in the face as hard as I could and if I feel no guilt or fear no Karmic retribution...I am safe. Of course I thought he was nuts and held fast my own fluffy beliefs that good prevails over bad eventually. I am coming to realise more and more, for me anyway, that I can't wait around for good to prevail and I have to often utilize everything I can to make things happen for the better for myself and my own. My son has an obsession with superheros, especially spiderman. Lately he draws more pictures and acts like the villans more than the heros...I tried to tell him the good guys always win, but even as I say the words I feel like a liar.

I am not sure where or if this even fits in here, but it is just on my mind a lot. I am sorry if I appeared to be attacking you all over something non-existent. I am just dealing with some of my own demons right now and it is manifesting in strange ways.

[Mithrea]

Alright I'm researching David Lynch for a paper and just found this quote. It seemed appropriate . . .


"I don't think that people accept the fact that life doesn't make sense. I think it makes people terribly uncomfortable. It seems like religion and myth were invented against that, trying to make sense out of it." --David Lynch (came from http://us.imdb.com/Bio?Lynch,+David)

Just thought I'd throw that out there! :) Take from it what you want ;)

[Semele]

Thanks for sharing that with us Mith! It is a great statement indeed. I once heard someone compare God or religion to a crutch to get people through difficult times. He went on to say that it is quite allright to use a crutch if you are handicapped, implying that we are all lacking something without religion. There are times I disagree wholeheartedly with this line of thought, but other times I know I need spirituality and belief in a higher being or beings in my life for my own sanity.

[Mithrea]

And of course there is always that faithful Marx standby (which I will paraphrase) *Religion is the opiate of the masses.* But that might be a teeny bit OT. I'm not sure. Since the idea that deities don't exist and pointing out the "problems" of religion are two different things.

And hey, I think we are all handicapped in some way. :)

[Ardea]

Where do you draw the line between gods and spirits? What are Glooskap, Raven, Coyote? Are gods only found in "civilisation"? Or aren't we just using a different word to separate "ours" from "theirs"?

[Myst]

Originally posted by Ardea
Where do you draw the line between gods and spirits? What are Glooskap, Raven, Coyote? Are gods only found in "civilisation"? Or aren't we just using a different word to separate "ours" from "theirs"?

Spirits are unique entities that exist not on this physical plane but another that sometimes is so close to ours they can communicate with us or be seen - if you're thinking of ghosts or ancestors they are the "souls" of passed or not born people. Gods aren't people but groupings of energy that spread across various planes and the universe and are higher beings. They've lived so many lifetimes they've learned enough lessons so they were able to ascend to a higher level of consciousness then us (a more complete post about my ideas on what God is/are is at http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=254368#post254368 ). This is all my opinion of course :)

Coyote and raven are animals and have animal spirits, which I consider to be equal to ours but different. They exist on the same plane with us and are at different levels of learning (whether they're higher, lower, or equal to you is probably up to you - I often wonder that animals without emotion are actually higher then us).

Gods only in civilization? I suppose that depends on what you think "civilization" is or who is civilized? Way back when Natives weren't considered "civilized" they had gods of their own anyway. Certainly vikings, celts, etc. etc. who weren't necessarily considered "civilized" had their own gods as well.

To me, to try to insist that Gods are make believe hallucinations is no different then insisting that all spirituality and beliefs and magic may also be hallucinations. Which may also be true, and is something Mastermoon has discussed with a few times, and certainly is something I've considered myself. But then, I wouldn't go telling people their beliefs are make believe; one can't really know for sure.

To take away beliefs and hopes and dreams is to take away a big part of what someone is as well as their purpose for living. I know, I spent several weeks there. Believe me, there's a reason why some of us hold onto our beliefs so strongly :)

[Mythrel]

I have a quick question, for someone who claims to be above labels, you sure seem to have quite a few. Why do you have so many labels??? (ie. Shaman, Pagan, Athiest, Witch, Amos The Unending, Amos Keppler, Nomad and Hunter)

[Arzhela]

Originally posted by Myst


I don't, and never will, and I'm sure you know exactly why. I certainly didn't have the "strength" or "power" to choose whether life continued or not, nor do any of us really have control on when life is begun or ended. Even if you shoot someone point blank in the face or spend years planning around fertility cycles, I'm sure you know as well as I do that we don't have authority on life.

I agree, with a certain reservation: we don't have authority on life, but we can encourage or discourage it in certain directions. One can shoot someone and end *a* "life" or one can plant a seed and provide for it or engage in sexual intercourse with another and "create" a life out of that. However, the life was, in fact, there to begin with, and in the case of killing someone, life will continue from that being's body after death. What, after all, is decomposition? The best analogy I can think of to clear up what I'm trying to say is that life, as a whole, is like an infinite river. One can plant a stone in the river (shooting someone, crushing an ant, letting a plant die), and water will run around the stone, **not being permanently displaced from the river**. Or one can create a crude channel on the river bottom, channeling more water into a certain route ("creating" a child, coaxing a seed into a plant). No life can be created or uncreated by humans, no water displaced or introduced, but we can direct the flow, resulting in consequences that are difficult to forsee.