A Link Between Some Vaccines and Some Cases of Autism?

[Lunacie]

Underlying illness may be aggravated by some vaccines. This child has the same underlying illness as her mother, but the mother never displayed any of the symptoms of autism. Shortly after recieving 9 routinely administered vaccines the girl stopped eating, failed to respond to verbal stimuli and became prone to episodes of screaming and high fever - followed by staring at lights, running in circles, looking at fans which are symptoms of autism.


ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- The parents of a 9-year-old girl with autism said Thursday that their assertion that her illness was caused by childhood vaccines has been vindicated by the federal government's decision to compensate them.
.....

Shoemaker said his clients do not oppose vaccines. "What we are all in favor of is safe vaccines," he said, calling for the removal of thimerosal from all vaccines. "If there is any question or doubt, then it should not be there."


from: http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/03/06/vaccines.autism/ (http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/03/06/vaccines.autism/)

I agree, the vaccines are adminstered for a very good reason, but when there are doubts about their safety then the government needs to look much more closely at the situation.

[Phoenix_Blue]

Underlying illness may be aggravated by some vaccines. This child has the same underlying illness as her mother, but the mother never displayed any of the symptoms of autism. Shortly after recieving 9 routinely administered vaccines the girl stopped eating, failed to respond to verbal stimuli and became prone to episodes of screaming and high fever - followed by staring at lights, running in circles, looking at fans which are symptoms of autism.
This has been happening periodically for years ... I'm not an expert on it, but my ex is an expert of sorts -- she's done a lot of research on side-effects of vaccines. And based on what she's found, I'm skeptical about vaccinating children any younger than two or three years old. The government, meanwhile, has given vaccines about as much attention (if not less) than it has Gulf War Syndrome.

[Willow Rosette]

At 10 months old Totia got a TB test and her 1st polio shot. That evening some very weird things happened. I have a friend who has a daughter that is seriously handicapped she cant talk and eats out of a feeding tube into her stomach. Any way every now and then Shannon gets this look in her eyes like she just isnt there. (Most of the time you can see her laughing and looking around).

Well the night Toria got her shots she brought her arms up to her chest, got stiff as a board and shook. She had that look in her eyes like she just wasnt there. We rushed her to the hospital and they insisted I gave her to much medicine, medicine she had been taking for 10 months and never reacted badly too.

In my heart I believe the cause of it was from one of the vaccines. There is no doubt in my mind that they could either cause or make worse certain problems like autism.

[Lunacie]

PB - the big argument in favor of giving our babies these vaccines is to prevent the spread of illness, but yeah, why give them to kids who aren't going to school with dozens or hundreds of other kids? Why not wait until the kids are at least 4 years old when many of them start attending pre-school or pre-kindergarten?



WR - That "thousand yard stare" is common among autistic kids, also can indicate petite mal seizures. We've seen Nove'Mber do that stare quite a few times, but when we asked her teachers they said they've never seen it. Maybe teachers are used to kids being bored and zoning out though. ;)

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

Er, people have been claiming that vaccines gave their kids autism for years. Similarly, people have been studying the aforementioned vaccines for years, and have pretty much disproven any link between vaccinating your kids and autism. There was a news story a month or two ago about how it's been proven that there's no link to vaccinating your kids and them becoming autistic. I seem to recall people spouting some junk about vaccinations containing mercury, or something.

Ah, here we go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy

[Willow Rosette]

WR - That "thousand yard stare" is common among autistic kids, also can indicate petite mal seizures. We've seen Nove'Mber do that stare quite a few times, but when we asked her teachers they said they've never seen it. Maybe teachers are used to kids being bored and zoning out though. ;)

Yea even though a nurse saw her do it right after bringing her into the hospital but they still swore that it was not a seizure.

And then blaming it on a medicine she had taken for 10 months instead of the vaccines she had recieved that day. The Dr.s insisted that the side effects of the polio shot is a fever and a rash and not a seizure but I believe it was what caused it.

SfDm People have been claiming there is a link because there are a lot of coincidences with kids getting sick right after being vaccinated. It is my belief that the reason there is no proof is because they dont want it getting out that it could be doing it.

[Lunacie]

Er, people have been claiming that vaccines gave their kids autism for years. Similarly, people have been studying the aforementioned vaccines for years, and have pretty much disproven any link between vaccinating your kids and autism. There was a news story a month or two ago about how it's been proven that there's no link to vaccinating your kids and them becoming autistic. I seem to recall people spouting some junk about vaccinations containing mercury, or something.

Ah, here we go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy


If the link between vaccines and autism has been disproven and it's just "junk", then why did the government compensate this family for their claim of a link between the vaccine and the changes in their child?

[Amilee]

I`m just curious but is it possible to have some forms of autism and be able to function normally? The more I read about it the more convinced I may have a minor form of it....

How do you check for such a thing if it does exist?

[Lunacie]

I`m just curious but is it possible to have some forms of autism and be able to function normally? The more I read about it the more convinced I may have a minor form of it....

How do you check for such a thing if it does exist?

I wouldn't say that someone who is able to function normally in all areas would have any form of autism, but there certainly different forms. One is called HFA or high functioning autism, which is very similar to Asperger's Syndrome or some forms of ADHD.

Here's an online test you can take to see whether you may need to be evaluated by a doctor or psychologist...
http://www.pttools.co.uk/asc/asc_wp2.php


That test gives scores from a 0 (no autistic tendencies) to a 10 (strong autistic component). I scored between 5 and 7 on all eight of the criteria. That may be because I have a very bad form of ADHD or a lesser form of Autism - probably I'll never know because I don't have the money to pay for testing by a doctor.

[sarabethv]

If the link between vaccines and autism has been disproven and it's just "junk", then why did the government compensate this family for their claim of a link between the vaccine and the changes in their child?

Because the government has a special fund set up to compensate people who have claims against vaccines. They will pretty much compensate anyone with a claim that isn't completely ridiculous, because they DO NOT want these people suing the vaccine companies for fear that they will quit making the vaccines that have saved so very many lives.

I believe we have had this argument on here before - but truthfully, I am grateful to vaccines. One of my cousins had polio (this was before the vaccines were a wide spread thing and his mom was one of the "I don't believe in this sort of thing" persons. He died before he was 20 and suffered painfully most of his life. My mom was a visionary of her time and got me vaccinated because she saw what happened to children who were NOT vaccinated.

Vaccines DO NOT cause autism - if they did, then this autism scare would have started with my generation and it didn't. Look to something else as the cause.

Also, medication batches (each and every one are different). Just because you have given a child a medication for months does not mean that the next batch might not cause problems.

P.S. I am not saying that all vaccines never cause problems. They sometimes do, but when you consider how many children are vaccinated every year and how few of those have problems caused by the vaccines, it doesn't make sense to NOT get vaccinated. I realize it doesn't help to say the odds are in your favor if you are one of the few parents whose child has been hurt by the vaccine, but it is a chance just getting up and feeding your child in the morning (a chance that you are maybe giving them something they are allergic to, or that has been contaminated..............

[Lunacie]

Because the government has a special fund set up to compensate people who have claims against vaccines. They will pretty much compensate anyone with a claim that isn't completely ridiculous, because they DO NOT want these people suing the vaccine companies for fear that they will quit making the vaccines that have saved so very many lives.

I believe we have had this argument on here before - but truthfully, I am grateful to vaccines. One of my cousins had polio (this was before the vaccines were a wide spread thing and his mom was one of the "I don't believe in this sort of thing" persons. He died before he was 20 and suffered painfully most of his life. My mom was a visionary of her time and got me vaccinated because she saw what happened to children who were NOT vaccinated.

Vaccines DO NOT cause autism - if they did, then this autism scare would have started with my generation and it didn't. Look to something else as the cause.

Also, medication batches (each and every one are different). Just because you have given a child a medication for months does not mean that the next batch might not cause problems.

P.S. I am not saying that all vaccines never cause problems. They sometimes do, but when you consider how many children are vaccinated every year and how few of those have problems caused by the vaccines, it doesn't make sense to NOT get vaccinated. I realize it doesn't help to say the odds are in your favor if you are one of the few parents whose child has been hurt by the vaccine, but it is a chance just getting up and feeding your child in the morning (a chance that you are maybe giving them something they are allergic to, or that has been contaminated..............

Well, when you consider how many children are being diagnosed with autism and asperger's every year and no one has been able to explain the huge increase, it doesn't make sense not to look at something like vaccines where parents feel the choices are being taken out of their hands.

And as far as food allergies go, consider that a lot more children seem to be allergic to peanuts every year than ever before. Is that because something like these vaccines is changing our internal chemistry and making us more susceptable to severe allergies?

But even the parents who sued over the vaccine say that the vaccines serve a purpose, but they may need to be administered in different forms, or in single doses instead of combinations, or at a later age...


edited to add:
As someone who has a granddaughter who has been diagnosed with Autism, our family is not looking for a chance to sue the government or the pharmaceutical companies or the doctors. We just want to know if the vaccines contribute and changes should be made so that so many families are not having to raise Autistic children, it just breaks your heart.

[lamoka]

I have said it before and will say it again..
to vaccinate or not vaccinate should be the right of the parents.. period.
choose the action choose the consequence.. for those who vaccinate and for those who don't..
pro-vaccinators should have no worry cause their kids are "safe", right? RIGHT? so why gripe?
families breaking down, kids shooting kids, suicide, lower immunities, stronger viruses, are all side effects of a society where government has interfered and screwed too much with the natural order of things for "the greater good"..
we are the biggest lab rats out there.. and no, they'll bury the results as long as there are profits to be made..
imho
aho

[Infinite Grey]

:nuhuh:


Argh


Baka

[NefertSatSekhmet]

I have said it before and will say it again..
to vaccinate or not vaccinate should be the right of the parents.. period.
choose the action choose the consequence.. for those who vaccinate and for those who don't..
pro-vaccinators should have no worry cause their kids are "safe", right? RIGHT? so why gripe?
families breaking down, kids shooting kids, suicide, lower immunities, stronger viruses, are all side effects of a society where government has interfered and screwed too much with the natural order of things for "the greater good"..
we are the biggest lab rats out there.. and no, they'll bury the results as long as there are profits to be made..
imho
aho

Some schools will not allow entry without proof of vaccination. So a lot of parents don't have the choice.

[Infinite Grey]

I have said it before and will say it again..
to vaccinate or not vaccinate should be the right of the parents.. period.

The use of word "period" indicats a close minded attitude, not a very smart position to take in any situation.


choose the action choose the consequence.. for those who vaccinate and for those who don't..

The consequences of choosing no to vaccinate is a good chance of a dead child and a possible outbreak of a stronger strain of an otherwise redundant disease.

pro-vaccinators should have no worry cause their kids are "safe", right? RIGHT? so why gripe?

See above. Stupid parents refusing vaccination do endanger other children, you only have to look at the outbreaks of small pox in third world countries to see the result of the idiocy of refusing vaccination.

families breaking down, kids shooting kids, suicide, lower immunities, stronger viruses, are all side effects of a society where government has interfered and screwed too much with the natural order of things for "the greater good"..

Families break down for a score of reasons, and been doing so for the entire history of humanity.

Kids shooting kids has more to do with parents and family not paying attention to their children's behaviour. I'd like to see a study that can logically connect government interference with a school shooting.

Again, plenty of reasons for suicide; usually caused by ignorance of surround friends and family members.

Oh yes, our immunities are on the floor... oops, what about the vast reduction of infantile death and much longer lifespans?

Wait, if our immune systems are so weak... why would there be stronger viruses? :lol: We have stronger viruses because... wait for it... we have stronger immune systems! :rollingla The super antigens are medicine's doing, but hey! That's nature (evolution).


we are the biggest lab rats out there.. and no, they'll bury the results as long as there are profits to be made..
imho
aho

Go the conspiracy theories!!! YEAH BABY!

It is just your honest opinion, but that doesn't make it anyless inane.

[Lunacie]

I agree that we have become a nation of "lab rats". Doctors in this country (the US) don't practice real medicine so much as simply writing prescriptions for the new "wonder drug" of the week, or refer us to a surgeon to be cut open risking infections and reactions to the drugs used for surgery.


So once again, I quote the parents from the article, saying maybe we should take a closer look at the combinations these vaccines are given in, or the carriers used to deliver them, or the ages at which they are given. It doesn't have to black and white, it shouldn't come down to vaccines are miracles or they're evil.

[lamoka]

The use of word "period" indicats a close minded attitude, not a very smart position to take in any situation.

Yep.. closed minded.. that would be me.:woot:

The consequences of choosing no to vaccinate is a good chance of a dead child and a possible outbreak of a stronger strain of an otherwise redundant disease.

The choice should still be that a choice. Women choose to abort.. what is the outcome there?

See above. Stupid parents refusing vaccination do endanger other children, you only have to look at the outbreaks of small pox in third world countries to see the result of the idiocy of refusing vaccination.

I am speaking on American soil as that is where this issue lies.

Families break down for a score of reasons, and been doing so for the entire history of humanity.

Absolutely.

Kids shooting kids has more to do with parents and family not paying attention to their children's behaviour. I'd like to see a study that can logically connect government interference with a school shooting.

Government interferes with families. It's called the trickle down effect. Don't tickle, it's abuse, don't yell it's abuse, don't spank its abuse. I know one woman who even thinks standing a child in the corner is abuse. They will come take your children and shove them into some government approved home where god knows what will happen to them and say its for the good of the child.

Again, plenty of reasons for suicide; usually caused by ignorance of surround friends and family members.

Hope you never have anyone close to you decide to end their lives. Wouldn't want you to feel ignorant.

Oh yes, our immunities are on the floor... oops, what about the vast reduction of infantile death and much longer lifespans?

Quantity of life, maybe.. have you worked in a nursing home lately.. seen the quality of that increased lifespan? And reduction of infantile death, due to what? We would rather have them maimed, malformed and again the quality of life is??

Wait, if our immune systems are so weak... why would there be stronger viruses? :lol: We have stronger viruses because... wait for it... we have stronger immune systems! :rollingla The super antigens are medicine's doing, but hey! That's nature (evolution).

Stronger viruses are due to rampant overuse of antiobiotics.. read the paper lately..





Go the conspiracy theories!!! YEAH BABY!

Can you say JFK, watergate, deep throat, cia, fbi, boston harbor tea party..
this country was built on conspiracies... :rollingla

It is just your honest opinion, but that doesn't make it anyless inane.

excuse me while I change my screenname.. I to Inane.. 8O

thank you for the debate.. got me goin'...
aho

[lamoka]

The use of word "period" indicats a close minded attitude, not a very smart position to take in any situation.

***Yep.. closed minded.. that would be me... my choice, my consequence:woot:

The consequences of choosing no to vaccinate is a good chance of a dead child and a possible outbreak of a stronger strain of an otherwise redundant disease.

***The choice should still be that, a choice. Women choose to abort.. what is the outcome there? As well, whatever God has put on this earth as a challenge, God has given an answer. I believe if it is organic in nature, the answer lies in the organic.

See above. Stupid parents refusing vaccination do endanger other children, you only have to look at the outbreaks of small pox in third world countries to see the result of the idiocy of refusing vaccination.

***I am speaking on American soil as that is where this issue lies. And the "stupid parent" part.. a little closed minded of you don't you think?

Families break down for a score of reasons, and been doing so for the entire history of humanity.

***Absolutely.

Kids shooting kids has more to do with parents and family not paying attention to their children's behaviour. I'd like to see a study that can logically connect government interference with a school shooting.

***Government interferes with families. It's called the trickle down effect. Don't tickle it's abuse, don't yell it's abuse, don't spank its abuse. I know one woman who even thinks standing a child in the corner is abuse. They will come take your children and shove them into some government approved home where god knows what will happen to them and say its for the good of the child.

Again, plenty of reasons for suicide; usually caused by ignorance of surround friends and family members.

***Hope you never have anyone close to you decide to end their lives. Wouldn't want you to feel ignorant.

Oh yes, our immunities are on the floor... oops, what about the vast reduction of infantile death and much longer lifespans?

***Quantity of life, maybe.. have you worked in a nursing home lately.. seen the quality of that increased lifespan? And reduction of infantile death, due to what? We would rather have them maimed, malformed and again the quality of life is??

Wait, if our immune systems are so weak... why would there be stronger viruses? :lol: We have stronger viruses because... wait for it... we have stronger immune systems! :rollingla The super antigens are medicine's doing, but hey! That's nature (evolution).

***Stronger viruses are due to rampant overuse of antiobiotics.. read the paper lately..





Go the conspiracy theories!!! YEAH BABY!

***Can you say JFK, watergate, deep throat, cia, fbi, boston harbor tea party..
this country was built on conspiracies... :rollingla

It is just your honest opinion, but that doesn't make it anyless inane.

***excuse me while I change my screenname.. to Inane.. 8O

thank you for the debate.. got me goin'... keeps me strong..
aho

[Infinite Grey]

***Yep.. closed minded.. that would be me... my choice, my consequence


Yes, and please keep it to yourself.

***The choice should still be that, a choice. Women choose to abort.. what is the outcome there? As well, whatever God has put on this earth as a challenge, God has given an answer. I believe if it is organic in nature, the answer lies in the organic.

1> Abortions to not affect other children
2> You can believe tiny unicorns poke holes in your muffler, doesn't make it true.

***I am speaking on American soil as that is where this issue lies. And the "stupid parent" part.. a little closed minded of you don't you think?

Biology is the same.
Nope, if a parent acts stupid, then they're stupid. Pretty simple.

***Government interferes with families. It's called the trickle down effect. Don't tickle it's abuse, don't yell it's abuse, don't spank its abuse. I know one woman who even thinks standing a child in the corner is abuse. They will come take your children and shove them into some government approved home where god knows what will happen to them and say its for the good of the child.

The trickle down effect? Don't you mean the Slippery Slope Argument? :lol:

Oh bullcrap! If anything more government involvement is needed, support facilities are needed for these people/children. If there is no open hand, these people lose hope... guess what happens then. Try looking outside of the USA at countries that do everything better and you'll see what I mean.


***Hope you never have anyone close to you decide to end their lives. Wouldn't want you to feel ignorant.

Wow! You have really mastered the inane statement thing haven't you.


***Quantity of life, maybe.. have you worked in a nursing home lately.. seen the quality of that increased lifespan? And reduction of infantile death, due to what? We would rather have them maimed, malformed and again the quality of life is??

Again, look outside the USA for that. Just because the USA rates number 8 in quality of life, doesn't mean it's all bad everywhere else. Personally I think I'll enjoy my long life.

Reduction in Infantile death due to MEDICAL SCIENCE maybe?


***Stronger viruses are due to rampant overuse of antiobiotics.. read the paper lately..

Ummm... excuse me... ummm... did you know your ignorance is showing?

Antibiotics do not have anything to do with viruses. :hehehehe: Super Bacterium is caused by excessive use of antibiotics, again, nature at work there.




***Can you say JFK, watergate, deep throat, cia, fbi, boston harbor tea party..
this country was built on conspiracies...

Not really... just a love affair with conspiracy fantasies.



***excuse me while I change my screenname.. to Inane.. 8O

thank you for the debate.. got me goin'... keeps me strong..
aho


Seems appropriate........... do you know what Inane means?

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

Sensibility

I don't think MW has a smiley for a tinfoil hat, but this thread has made me wish there was one.

Vaccines have saved and will continue to save the lives of millions. Two of humanity's greatest achievements were the eradication of smallpox and polio, due to vaccinations, and one day (and how I hope and pray for it) we'll consign HIV to the dustbin of history. And I will have my kids at the front of that HIV-vaccination line.

Lamoka, feel more than free to go live in some paramilitary compound somewhere (unless you do already, and if you do already live in such a place, well, congratulations I guess), but for the health of your children and those they interact with, for the love of God, get them vaccinated.

Parents - stop blaming THE GUVERMINT for your children's inability to learn and start doing some damn parenting!

Also, just to stir up controversy, self-diagnosis of ANY autism-spectrum disorder, and Asperger's in particular, is a classic symptom of Internet Disease. There, I said it.

[Lunacie]

Yes, and please keep it to yourself.



1> Abortions to not affect other children
2> You can believe tiny unicorns poke holes in your muffler, doesn't make it true.



Biology is the same.
Nope, if a parent acts stupid, then they're stupid. Pretty simple.



The trickle down effect? Don't you mean the Slippery Slope Argument? :lol:

Oh bullcrap! If anything more government involvement is needed, support facilities are needed for these people/children. If there is no open hand, these people lose hope... guess what happens then. Try looking outside of the USA at countries that do everything better and you'll see what I mean.




Wow! You have really mastered the inane statement thing haven't you.




Again, look outside the USA for that. Just because the USA rates number 8 in quality of life, doesn't mean it's all bad everywhere else. Personally I think I'll enjoy my long life.

Reduction in Infantile death due to MEDICAL SCIENCE maybe?




Ummm... excuse me... ummm... did you know your ignorance is showing?

Antibiotics do not have anything to do with viruses. :hehehehe: Super Bacterium is caused by excessive use of antibiotics, again, nature at work there.






Not really... just a love affair with conspiracy fantasies.





Seems appropriate........... do you know what Inane means?

This is a discussion forum, ALL opinions, even those you may consider closed-minded ones, are allowed to be expressed here. If you think someone is "inane" you might consider using the Ignore Button rather than taking potshots at the poster.

[Lunacie]

I don't think MW has a smiley for a tinfoil hat, but this thread has made me wish there was one.

Vaccines have saved and will continue to save the lives of millions. Two of humanity's greatest achievements were the eradication of smallpox and polio, due to vaccinations, and one day (and how I hope and pray for it) we'll consign HIV to the dustbin of history. And I will have my kids at the front of that HIV-vaccination line.

Lamoka, feel more than free to go live in some paramilitary compound somewhere (unless you do already, and if you do already live in such a place, well, congratulations I guess), but for the health of your children and those they interact with, for the love of God, get them vaccinated.

Parents - stop blaming THE GUVERMINT for your children's inability to learn and start doing some damn parenting!

Also, just to stir up controversy, self-diagnosis of ANY autism-spectrum disorder, and Asperger's in particular, is a classic symptom of Internet Disease. There, I said it.

"Self-diagnosis" of our children's autism? WHERE did that come from?

Doesn't sound like you know very much about autism. These kids are often very, very smart. They often keep up with their classmates very well in learning their lessons. They just have trouble with social cues, or with being able to self-regulate when they are feeling overwhelmed by light and sound and smell and texture ... all the things that neuro-typical children don't even notice.

All the really great parenting in the world isn't going to change the chemistry in these kids brains and help them to deal with the overload on their senses. And "bad parenting" doesn't cause autism.

Lamoka has just as much right to live in this country and question government mandates in raising our own children as anyone has to question or complain about anything else our government and our politicians do. That's one of the great things about this country, eh?

[Phoenix_Blue]

Ummm... excuse me... ummm... did you know your ignorance is showing?
ADMIN MODE

Comments such as this will not be tolerated. Keep the conversation civil, or the thread will be closed.

[Cat]

Well, when you consider how many children are being diagnosed with autism and asperger's every year and no one has been able to explain the huge increase, it doesn't make sense not to look at something like vaccines where parents feel the choices are being taken out of their hands..

I'm going to begin by saying that those of us who say there is no causal relationship between vaccines and autism are not insensitive to the plight of children and families affected bu this disorder. We aren't anti-autism, and we don't think autism is a walk in the park. We want the cause found and fixed.

But the relationship between autism and vaccines has already been looked at, multiple times. And the cause of autism is just not there. Might there be one or two instances where something was wrong with the injection or the child had a rare reaction that harmed them? Sure. But research has shown that for 99% of the cases, vaccinations did not cause autism.

What bothered me about what you wrote was that you are basing your opinions on feeling, and you want researchers to direct their time and money and resources in accordance with your feelings. And I'm not saying you aren't entitled to base your opinions on whatever you like, including dream communiques from the Flying Spaghetti Monster--but it's not good science.

Just because a parent feels suspicious of vaccinations does not mean they are the culprit, any more than dreaming your SO had an affair means he/she did. And by keeping the heat on vaccinations, more publicity and attention is focussed there, while the real cause (or, as I suspect, set of causes) continues unchecked.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

I don't suppose it's occurred to anyone that the spike in diagnoses of autism might, just might be due to the development of better methods of diagnosis?

[Lunacie]

I'm going to begin by saying that those of us who say there is no causal relationship between vaccines and autism are not insensitive to the plight of children and families affected bu this disorder. We aren't anti-autism, and we don't think autism is a walk in the park. We want the cause found and fixed.

But the relationship between autism and vaccines has already been looked at, multiple times. And the cause of autism is just not there. Might there be one or two instances where something was wrong with the injection or the child had a rare reaction that harmed them? Sure. But research has shown that for 99% of the cases, vaccinations did not cause autism.

What bothered me about what you wrote was that you are basing your opinions on feeling, and you want researchers to direct their time and money and resources in accordance with your feelings. And I'm not saying you aren't entitled to base your opinions on whatever you like, including dream communiques from the Flying Spaghetti Monster--but it's not good science.

Just because a parent feels suspicious of vaccinations does not mean they are the culprit, any more than dreaming your SO had an affair means he/she did. And by keeping the heat on vaccinations, more publicity and attention is focussed there, while the real cause (or, as I suspect, set of causes) continues unchecked.

That is simply not true. I don't think it would really cost anything to delay giving children the vaccines until after their 2nd or even 3rd birthday. Would it really cost that much more to give the vaccines singly instead of grouped together? Would it be that expensive to try using a different carrier agent?

When someone you love is facing a life time of dealing with a really debilitating disorder such as autism, you do feel emotional. But my continuing concern over the way vaccines are administered (not the whole idea of giving vaccines) is not based on emotions. It's based on the fact that we still don't have the answers as to why there has been such a huge upsurge in the reported cases of autism.


I don't suppose it's occurred to anyone that the spike in diagnoses of autism might, just might be due to the development of better methods of diagnosis?

Actually, in the other thread on this topic I know that was factored in by many of - who are nevertheless concerned with the growing numbers of reported cases. I don't think it can all be attributed to growing awareness. But even if it could, wouldn't it still be helpful to learn what is causing the disorders in the first place? Is it a chemical imbalance that can be helped through diet, behavior modification, or even drugs? Does giving vaccines too young, with too many clumped together, or with a poor choice of carryier agent really make good sense?

[Infinite Grey]

If only there was a study that indicated that there was no collation between MMR vaccinations and autism... oh wait a second... what is this?

British Medical Journal (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/324/7334/393?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=Fombonne+autism&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT)

But meh! What do those British people know? Damn them and their socialize medical system! I mean, even the National Autistic Society (NAS) had to admit the study was "reasonable".

I wonder if people are aware of where the original connection between MMR vaccination and autism was made... or more importantly who made that connection and why.

[Lunacie]

If only there was a study that indicated that there was no collation between MMR vaccinations and autism... oh wait a second... what is this?

British Medical Journal (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/324/7334/393?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=Fombonne+autism&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT)

But meh! What do those British people know? Damn them and their socialize medical system! I mean, even the National Autistic Society (NAS) had to admit the study was "reasonable".

I wonder if people are aware of where the original connection between MMR vaccination and autism was made... or more importantly who made that connection and why.

Funny, but in reading that article I found this...
We submit that the argument given by Kaye et al is too simplistic to reassure us that there is no link between MMR and autism. The current arguments in favour of the link, however, remain unconvincing.

Below that is a list of concerns with the way the study was conducted.
And this...
We did not study whether vaccines other than MMR are associated with the increasing incidence of autism.

So, the research is not definitive, and it doesn't cover all the vaccines that are administer to very young children.

[Gwyddyon]

Personally, I blame fluoridation of the water supply. Autism is only one of the inevitable results of Big Brother interfering with our purity of essence.

On a more serious note, put the tinfoil hats away. The government is not hiding evidence. They are not ignoring potential problems. You wouldn't believe the number of complaints I've heard from people at big medical companies (the research and development side, by the way) about how the FDA is too cautious, more cautious than is even remotely reasonable. Our government is so careful about these sorts of things, in fact, that they risk lives in exactly the way the conspiracy nutters don't expect - they keep potentially lifesaving equipment and drugs off the market for a few years too long because they want to make absolutely sure things don't go wrong.

[Cat]

Personally, I blame fluoridation of the water supply. Autism is only one of the inevitable results of Big Brother interfering with our purity of essence.

Laugh while you can. The latest conspiracy theory being floated around in a mom's group I belong to is that flouride causes autism.

Naturally I wrote back that this was silly. We already know that flouride causes communism.

[Infinite Grey]

Funny, but in reading that article I found this...


Below that is a list of concerns with the way the study was conducted.
And this...


So, the research is not definitive, and it doesn't cover all the vaccines that are administer to very young children.

Any idea why? Because there is no logical reason to connect the two. I'm going to paraphrase the Pastafarians and claim that global warming is a result of a decrease in Pirates. Get it?

The Centers for Disease Control, the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences, and the UK National Health Service have all concluded that there is no evidence of a link between vaccination and autism.

The paranoid idea of Vaccination causing Autism dates back to a study done by Andrew Wakefield, whose study found a collation between gastrointestinal pathologies and Autism. He nominated a range of environmental factors as a cause, and but the MMR vaccination on the list of possible suspects; but latter studies showed no evidence that it was connected. He did speak out against the MMR vaccination, but not vaccination in general; claiming until the MMR was proven safe the vaccinations should be taken separately. He has been since heavily criticized by the scientific community for failing to provide evidence for his claims and causing a health scare.

The idea that other vaccination is a result of the general public's paranoia and ignorance, giving the wrong sort of people fuel to increase the fire.

As a result of a reduction in vaccination cause by the MMR autism scare (late 90s) and other such nonsense claims since the 60s were increases in the diseases' morbidity and mortality. Here's a short list.
Netherlands, measles (1999–2000) A religious group refused vaccination, 3 deaths, 68 hospitalizations out of 2961 cases.
Ireland, measles (2000) The vaccination rate dropped to below 80% and in North Dublin the site of the outbreak, the immunization level was 60%. 3 Children dead.
Nigeria, polio, measles, diphtheria (2001–) Conservative religious folk refused vaccination. Polio reappeared in previously polio free areas, it spread into neighbouring nations. Nigeria account for over half of all new cases of Polio. 20,000 measles cases and nearly 600 deaths from measles and still rising . Dipheria outbreaks all over as a result of low imune systems.

All these diseases should be redundant, but noooo people have to cling to any crazy reason not to trust vaccines. It baffles me. One death from these disease is a death too many, more so because it is a result of people's stupidity... nothing more.

[sarabethv]

I don't suppose it's occurred to anyone that the spike in diagnoses of autism might, just might be due to the development of better methods of diagnosis?

Well that and perhaps the fact that our world is becoming heavily polluted with all sorts of things our children encounter daily. Like this whole pharmacuticals in the water - it is said that the amounts are too small to do any damage - I wonder if that is true?

That is simply not true. I don't think it would really cost anything to delay giving children the vaccines until after their 2nd or even 3rd birthday. Would it really cost that much more to give the vaccines singly instead of grouped together? Would it be that expensive to try using a different carrier agent?

When someone you love is facing a life time of dealing with a really debilitating disorder such as autism, you do feel emotional. But my continuing concern over the way vaccines are administered (not the whole idea of giving vaccines) is not based on emotions. It's based on the fact that we still don't have the answers as to why there has been such a huge upsurge in the reported cases of autism.


Actually, in the other thread on this topic I know that was factored in by many of - who are nevertheless concerned with the growing numbers of reported cases. I don't think it can all be attributed to growing awareness. But even if it could, wouldn't it still be helpful to learn what is causing the disorders in the first place? Is it a chemical imbalance that can be helped through diet, behavior modification, or even drugs? Does giving vaccines too young, with too many clumped together, or with a poor choice of carryier agent really make good sense?

The problem with giving them singly is that people in general are just not very good at following up. It is hard enough to get them to come in for the vaccinations in one sitting without spreading that out over a year or longer to make sure that there are no effects from each one. Plus the cost will go up, they will have to ship and package separately, the doctors will have to charge office visits separately, (so it will cost you more also). The more times a procedure must be done and the more hands and the more packaging, the more chances of something messing up.

Also, the problem with waiting is that as the child is older, parents tend to not take them to the doctor if they seem healthy. Plus, MMR and other diseases can strike at the very young - disease doesn't wait until they are 3 or older.

I am not saying you would be one of those people that wouldn't take their child to the doctor, or would not go each month for a couple of years to the doctor to sit and wait and have a grumpy child on your hands - - - - but I had a neighbor who would be just that - in fact I doubt her younger children have their immunizations at all -

Laugh while you can. The latest conspiracy theory being floated around in a mom's group I belong to is that flouride causes autism.

Naturally I wrote back that this was silly. We already know that flouride causes communism.

Absolutely. I think people are just so very freaked out by autism because the child "looks" normal but isn't and they want anything any tiny hope that here is a cause we can blame - something other than the parent - or did I have a glass of wine while pregnant - did I do or not do something that caused this.



One death from these disease is a death too many. I agree with this - because these deaths are preventable, so many are not.

[lamoka]

A persons belief system plays a huge part in how they perceive positive, negative, good and bad.
Reference the arguments all you will.. if a person believes that no one dies before their time, then it stands to follow that if a child dies due to the immunization or due to the lack of immunization it is all the same.. it was time for that soul to complete the life circle.
Doesn't make it easier just makes it a little more understandable.
When I chose to have my son vaccinated (oh no.. did I just say that?? does that mean I'm not a stupid parent anymore???) I chose the consequence.. I gave it up to God and to my sons soul that whatever the outcome was meant to be, it would. Doesn't mean I like the fact. Means even more that when he had his REACTION to that vaccine and it was pulled from the market a week or so later that I was predisposed to like it even less.
Children had died from ruptured bowels due to this particular vaccine.
One death is one death too many.. vaccine caused or otherwise.
I will not apologize for making educated, informed (as much as society allows) decisions when it comes to my and my families health. I will not be led like a sheep to the slaughter, blindly believing in anything but the innate wisdom granted to me by that which created me and lives in me.
Options need to be explored.
When you know better you do better..
my concern is that as long as the dollar is the bottom line and those who truly want better options are silenced, my children simply are not their main concern.
But then again who I am?? I lack substance and sense...
aho

[Infinite Grey]

A persons belief system plays a huge part in how they perceive positive, negative, good and bad.
Reference the arguments all you will.. if a person believes that no one dies before their time, then it stands to follow that if a child dies due to the immunization or due to the lack of immunization it is all the same.. it was time for that soul to complete the life circle.
Doesn't make it easier just makes it a little more understandable.
When I chose to have my son vaccinated (oh no.. did I just say that?? does that mean I'm not a stupid parent anymore???) I chose the consequence.. I gave it up to God and to my sons soul that whatever the outcome was meant to be, it would. Doesn't mean I like the fact. Means even more that when he had his REACTION to that vaccine and it was pulled from the market a week or so later that I was predisposed to like it even less.
Children had died from ruptured bowels due to this particular vaccine.
One death is one death too many.. vaccine caused or otherwise.
I will not apologize for making educated, informed (as much as society allows) decisions when it comes to my and my families health. I will not be led like a sheep to the slaughter, blindly believing in anything but the innate wisdom granted to me by that which created me and lives in me.
Options need to be explored.
When you know better you do better..
my concern is that as long as the dollar is the bottom line and those who truly want better options are silenced, my children are simply are not their main concern.
But then again who I am?? I lack substance and sense...
aho

Researching into anything is always a good thing, a smart thing. But educated and smart research is the really smart thing, not jumping at shadows and spewing out conspiracy theories.

How old is your son? You do know that his mummy's immune system only protects him up to 6 months old (if he's getting breast milk).

[lamoka]

He just turned a healthy and happy nine.. my daughter will be five this fall... and both were breastfed as long as the milk lasted.. I have miscarried five.. maybe that could be the reason for my unwillingness to blindly obey.. who knows.. all I can say is that what we believe, inside, is the best way for us to manage our lives, get them to a somewhat balanced adulthood and let them loose on the unsuspecting world ;)....
aho

[Lunacie]

All these diseases should be redundant, but noooo people have to cling to any crazy reason not to trust vaccines. It baffles me. One death from these disease is a death too many, more so because it is a result of people's stupidity... nothing more.

Yes, even one death from easily preventable diseases is too many.

But... how many occurances of autism are too many?

I'm not "clinging to any crazy reason not to trust vaccines", I'm wondering what exactly is causing this spike in the number of reported cases of autism, asperger's and other neurological disorders. It may very well be the floride in the toothpaste and the water, or the prescription drugs that get flushed down toilets and end up in our water supply, it may even be that those things together cause a toxicity that isn't present in either of them.

I don't know what the cause is, and I'm really getting fed up with being slammed and called stupid and crazy for questioning the complete safety of these things. Apparently the parents in the story I linked were able to convince someone that in their daughter's case, the vaccine was in part responsible for her autism. And that's all I freaking said - I've never claimed any "conspiracy theories" or "government cover ups" ... and I guess it's time for me to unsubscribe from my own thread before I write something really "emotional" and get myself temp-banned.

[Infinite Grey]

Yes, even one death from easily preventable diseases is too many.

But... how many occurances of autism are too many?

I'm not "clinging to any crazy reason not to trust vaccines", I'm wondering what exactly is causing this spike in the number of reported cases of autism, asperger's and other neurological disorders. It may very well be the floride in the toothpaste and the water, or the prescription drugs that get flushed down toilets and end up in our water supply, it may even be that those things together cause a toxicity that isn't present in either of them.

I don't know what the cause is, and I'm really getting fed up with being slammed and called stupid and crazy for questioning the complete safety of these things. Apparently the parents in the story I linked were able to convince someone that in their daughter's case, the vaccine was in part responsible for her autism. And that's all I freaking said - I've never claimed any "conspiracy theories" or "government cover ups" ... and I guess it's time for me to unsubscribe from my own thread before I write something really "emotional" and get myself temp-banned.

I don't mind people questioning everything, I encouraging it. Outrageous claims is another matter altogether. I do not recall "slamming" you down specifically, I kept everything general. Sorry if you took it personal.

He just turned a healthy and happy nine.. my daughter will be five this fall... and both were breastfed as long as the milk lasted.. I have miscarried five.. maybe that could be the reason for my unwillingness to blindly obey.. who knows.. all I can say is that what we believe, inside, is the best way for us to manage our lives, get them to a somewhat balanced adulthood and let them loose on the unsuspecting world ;)....
aho

Annd they're only just getting vaccinated? Your kids.

Because you micarried five... ok, I do not understand your logic there.

As one of the conditions of posting on this forum involves respecting other's belief (oh it is hard), I'll leave the rest of your post alone.

[lamoka]

You misunderstood Grey.. I did not say he just got vaccinated.. this happened when he was around four months old.. when I blindly believed my pediatrician that "it is perfectly safe, Mom.. no worries." I do not blame the pediatrician.. I don't blame anybody.. it is what it is..
and as for losing a child, until you have you may not understand the fierceness in a parents heart to protect the precious ones you have been given.. it is my sincere wish that this lesson is not one you ever learn..
I believe there may be better ways.. in many areas of life...
I ask only that they be explored not for their profit potential but for their health potential..
I believe all things can begin for all the right reasons.. sort of like religions.. (even my beliefs) but due to perspective and human nature it gets "warped" for lack of a better word.. doesn't make it wrong though Gray, just different..


I am so sorry Lunacie.. my posts have illicited responses that have offended you.. this was not my intention.. it scares me sometimes the bent of some to be so totally self righteous in deciding the rights and wrongs for others.. generalized statement here, no personal intent towards specific people...
aho

[SphinYote]

Most of the earlier studies (not all, mind) looked at the mercury as the potential factor in ASDs. The thing is, though, that vaccinations CAUSE an immune reaction. Not the illness itself (or at least not typically, though even in supposedly dead vaccines its been known to happen), but an immune reaction.

Children to get high fevers, especially when multiple vaccinations are given at once. High fevers can and do cause brain damage. Certain parts of the brain are more suseptible to damage than others. In young children, brain is still developing at an amazing rate.

Immunizations help more people than they hurt, but as other people have said, nothing is 100 % fail-proof.

I am in agreement with people who say it is best to simply wait a little longer, that does not hurt anyone. And get the immunizations one at a time, rather than having a sudden influx of multiple antibodies at once.

Seizures are associated with immunizations, as are fevers, particularly in very young children, but I've myself witnessed it in adults, scary as hell. Personalities do DEFINITELY change after children are given immunizations, that I have witnessed more times than I can count. They may or may not cause autism, but they do cause fundamental sudden and lasting changes in behavior for many children after the kids get the fever or have the seizure.

I don't know if its the fever or the sheer number of antibodies causing some sort of biochemical issue, but the change in behavior is definitely observable and it doesn't always go away.

If its the antibodies, one immunization at a time when the child is older should be fine.

If its the fever, then it is a simple matter of making sure the fever doesn't get beyond a certain temperature, informing parents of the side effects, possible outcomes, and how to cope. A lot of parents just blindly assume the fever is to be expected and don't do anything. I suspect it might be helpful to keep the child calm and cooler would be better.

Again, most earlier studies deal with thimiserol (sp?), and those are the ones that tend to state there's no correlation. The ones that look at instances of fever and seizures, those are the ones that point to a much more complex picture. And so does personal experience. I don't work with kids, don't even like being around them, but I'm not completely blind when the ones I do know suddenly have a complete and lasting change in behavior.

[Lunacie]

Lamoka, I do not think any of this is your fault. I thoughtfully (not emotionally) chose to post the link to that news story in the Health & Beauty forum instead of the Political forum because I didn't intend for the focus to be on "conspiracy theories" and "government cover ups". I hoped to keep this to a more general discussion where different opinions would be welcome... but some of those who responded used words that were intended to cause inflamed responses. We shouldn't have to put on flame-retardant suits to post anywhere on MW except in the Political forum, where a disclaimer has been posted.

:geez:

[SphinYote]

It is interesting that on this board at least I don't see anyone who is anti-vaccination, and yet the reaction is extreme to the mere hint of questioning.

No grey area (Definite pun intended) allowed on the issue of vaccinations, if you're not ENTIRELY with them, you MUST be ENTIRELY against them. There can obviously be no other way.

Lunacie, I'm sorry you and others have to put up with this kind of crap and complete twisting of words from people.

[Lunacie]

It is interesting that on this board at least I don't see anyone who is anti-vaccination, and yet the reaction is extreme to the mere hint of questioning.

No grey area (Definite pun intended) allowed on the issue of vaccinations, if you're not ENTIRELY with them, you MUST be ENTIRELY against them. There can obviously be no other way.

Lunacie, I'm sorry you and others have to put up with this kind of crap and complete twisting of words from people.

Thank you. I also noticed the "all or nothing", "my way or the highway" attitude and probably should have asked for the thread to be closed - or moved to Political so that those who wanted to continue the bash-fest and slam-party could completely ignore the underlying concerns and the opportunity for a real discussion. :(

[Infinite Grey]

Bitch bitch bitch :T

Try and visit my intentions all you want.

Let me ask a question; What is the point of entertaining ideas based on isane hype? They prey on the in securities of parents (as if they didn't have enough real problems to think about) unnecessarily. I have maintain throughout my posts that you should question everything, become informed, be open minded - but not so open minded that your brain falls out.

So yeah, have you little bitching session about me. I guess I struck a cord or two :rollingla

[lamoka]

My dear Sphinyote..
Let me clear something here.. my belief system, my spirituality has led me to a place where yes, I am anti-vaccine, as vaccines stand today. I have been led to believe that in their wisdom my Lord and Lady have given the remedy to the organic illnesses we encounter. Nature based illness has nature based answers. I speak in terms of childhood diseases, malnutrition, viruses, bacteria and things of the like. That is my personal belief.
My personal experiences, my personal learning, has brought me to a place of different understanding than the woman I was 9 short years ago when my son was born.

Naturopaths, homeopaths, ayurvedics, native americans and such are gaining because what they do works in harmony with the body and many times has the same if not better results without damage to the existing body.

I try to make my decisions based on the relevant information, not fear. If that info is scewed, so much the worse for me and mine. That being said, I ask daily, sometimes moment to moment, for strength, wisdom and understanding when making life decisions, which include getting into a vehicle with my children, not knowing who is traveling the road and what it may bring.

There is nothing worse than facing the challenges of less than perfect health except watching those you love facing them and not having the answers. Expecting professionals to help in whatever fashion they can. I am learning that we posess all the knowledge needed to make profound changes in our lives and our health. Illness is just another facet of growth.

Do I discount the benefits of vaccines.. no, I think they bought some time maybe.. to learn a better way.

There is no one hundred percent safe way for anything or anyone.

I trust daily, that come what may, all is in divine order and I believe fully that even though the body is broke the soul is whole.

I also believe that we choose our path before we come. That other souls contract with us to travel together and bring about those lessons that need learning.


If I think "in" this world, I recognize greed and ignorance.

If I think "out" of this world, I recognize lessons and growth.
I call this soul thinking. It is how I make peace with the decisions I make, and how I accept others.
aho

[Lunacie]

Bitch bitch bitch :T

Try and visit my intentions all you want.

Let me ask a question; What is the point of entertaining ideas based on isane hype? They prey on the in securities of parents (as if they didn't have enough real problems to think about) unnecessarily. I have maintain throughout my posts that you should question everything, become informed, be open minded - but not so open minded that your brain falls out.

So yeah, have you little bitching session about me. I guess I struck a cord or two :rollingla

Sorry if you took anything I wrote personally. I guess I struck a chord myself. :hahugh:

Nothing I posted had anything to do with "insane hype" and I can certainly debate the validity of these concerns without using rhetoric such as you have used. Apparently I can question any of this, but everything I mention is going to be met with completely closed-minds and great derision. It seems you and some of the others have made up your minds about this issue and feel some deep-seated need to convince the rest of the world that you know the only possible truth and if they don't agree with you then they are dumber than dirt.

And apparently there is no possibility that anyone can actually discuss this topic in any of the forums on MW without being attacked and ridiculed. Perhaps it is time to ask for the thread to be closed at this point, but don't be surprised if someone revisits the subject at some point in a new thread.

[Infinite Grey]

Sorry if you took anything I wrote personally. I guess I struck a chord myself. :hahugh:

Nothing I posted had anything to do with "insane hype" and I can certainly debate the validity of these concerns without using rhetoric such as you have used. Apparently I can question any of this, but everything I mention is going to be met with completely closed-minds and great derision. It seems you and some of the others have made up your minds about this issue and feel some deep-seated need to convince the rest of the world that you know the only possible truth and if they don't agree with you then they are dumber than dirt.

And apparently there is no possibility that anyone can actually discuss this topic in any of the forums on MW without being attacked and ridiculed. Perhaps it is time to ask for the thread to be closed at this point, but don't be surprised if someone revisits the subject at some point in a new thread.

The very permise is based on hype.

Poor martyr you.

[Lunacie]

I disagree about the premise of a possible link being hype, but clearly you are right and I am wrong, at least in your mind (of which I shall refrain from making snarky comments).

I have not in any way indicated that I consider myself to be martyr. I am trying the best I can to help my grandchildren deal with their disabilities (I would say I never got any help for my disabilities but then I might sound like a martyr). But if there is a link between modern medicine and autism, then the children are victims - not martyrs. That is the issue that open-minded posters are interested in discussing. When the mind is too closed, new ideas cannot possibly penetrate. What does that feel like... a clenched fist with the muscles getting sore and tired from the tension?


oops... looks like a snarky comment managed to sneak in here anyway ;)

[lamoka]

((hugs)) Lunacie.. if anyone is going to find the answers I hope it is you.. have you explored eft for helping..
aho

[Xentor]

Admin mode

Infinite Grey, Lunacie: the respect rule applies to the both of you as well.

Infinite Grey: saying you have to respect someone and actually showing that respect are two different things. The latter is what you need to be doing, if you wish to continue being a part of this community.

Lunacie: discussing someone's behaviour in a thread does not help the conversation, especially when your own responses violate the same community rules. When someone disagrees with your assumptions, they don't necessarily attack you, personally.

Both of you chose to let this conversation devolve into a bitch fest. Do not let it happen again.

[imapepper]

We definitely need to get to the bottom of what causes Autism, and I think questioning everything is reasonable. Now, I personally do not believe vaccines cause Autism (based on studies that have been done by reputable sources) but I think that every parent has the right to decide what or what is best for the health of their children. Does that mean I think not vaccinating is smart? No, I don't, but if it gives some parents the peace of mind, so be it. There's enough to worry about when you have children, if not vaccinating lessens some of that worry for parents out there, let them have it. I personally would never not vaccinate my daughter because a lot of the illnesses vax are made for, were my baby to catch them now, might kill her. That's my choice though.

Autism is a difficult disease, like any other, and it's even harder to deal with when you don't know what the hell caused it. I don't blame parents for questioning everything, they're in their right to do so, and when you see a child suffering from an illness, it's normal to be skeptical of everything.

[Philosophia]

Since I think both sides are twisting words, let me just say my opinion;

So far research has not shown any link between Autism and vaccinations. I'm also one of those people that have never experienced or seen any of these side-effects everyone keeps talking about. I've never seen any seizures, changing of personalities, etc.. Autism has been linked to a lot of different factors and vaccinations is just one of them. One of the major reasons there has been an increase of Autistic cases is because there has been more exposure and less prejudice involved. Its the same with many other neuro-disorders, mental illnesses, etc.. The more exposure, research, and diagnostic techniques, the more the rates of Autism will increase.

[Lunacie]

We definitely need to get to the bottom of what causes Autism, and I think questioning everything is reasonable. Now, I personally do not believe vaccines cause Autism (based on studies that have been done by reputable sources) but I think that every parent has the right to decide what or what is best for the health of their children. Does that mean I think not vaccinating is smart? No, I don't, but if it gives some parents the peace of mind, so be it. There's enough to worry about when you have children, if not vaccinating lessens some of that worry for parents out there, let them have it. I personally would never not vaccinate my daughter because a lot of the illnesses vax are made for, were my baby to catch them now, might kill her. That's my choice though.

Autism is a difficult disease, like any other, and it's even harder to deal with when you don't know what the hell caused it. I don't blame parents for questioning everything, they're in their right to do so, and when you see a child suffering from an illness, it's normal to be skeptical of everything.

Again... I have not said we should not vaccinate the children AT ALL, but I don't buy into the reasons for not waiting until the children are at least 24 months old (preferrably older), or giving the shots singly, or maybe using a different carrier for the vaccine. Parents are given very little choice in this matter, and even more often aren't made aware that they have any choice at all. Yet over on the Political forum people complain about "the nanny state" all the time. *scratches head*

[imapepper]

Again... I have not said we should not vaccinate the children AT ALL, but I don't buy into the reasons for not waiting until the children are at least 24 months old (preferrably older), or giving the shots singly, or maybe using a different carrier for the vaccine. Parents are given very little choice in this matter, and even more often aren't made aware that they have any choice at all. Yet over on the Political forum people complain about "the nanny state" all the time. *scratches head*

Oh I know you didn't say that. :smile:

I based my reply on the general anti-vax population, since it was mentioned in this thread and caused the ensuing debate.

I don't blame you for feeling or thinking the way you do Lunacie, you're in your right. :)

[Lunacie]

I don't know that there is a "general anti-vax" population. I think perhaps there really aren't that many that would prefer to see the vaccines completely eliminated, but they are more vocal than those of us who just want some answers and a little more caution in the use of chemically derived drugs.

And thank for your support.

[sarabethv]

You know, homeopathic medicine is based on the same idea as vaccinations.

[Xentor]

You know, homeopathic medicine is based on the same idea as vaccinations.

Since when?

Watch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWE1tH93G9U)

[lamoka]

Not that homeopathy is BASED in vaccines but this link offers information on an alternative TO vaccines based in homeopathy.. people have alternatives... why isn't the information more prevalent... why don't your pediatric doctors say "hey, this is what we can do.. this OR that.. YOUR CHOICE" which has been my contention all along.. we get to choose.. its called free will in a free country.. ok.. I'm down now..
http://www.vaclib.org/basic/health/homeotreatment.htm
aho

[Xentor]

I expect no real medical doctor to offer a medication that fails to medicate. Why do you expect to get a choice between stuff that works and stuff that doesn't? Are you medically trained? If not, then why do you expect to be able to make a decent decision? If you are, why do you visit a doctor?

[lamoka]

Mr Randi is most entertaining.. and I actually learned a few things about homeopathy that I did not know.. too bad he doesn't use his powers for good... just kidding...
but I would like to see him take on serious issues and the side effects of medicines he was so fond of making fun of..
I have been seeing a homeopathist for four years now.. have taken my husband.. hooked my friends up with him.. taken my children.. and never once have I not seen the benefits of the treatments that were given to any of the individuals..
and never once did they have to take another treatment to offset a side effect of the first treatment..
different strokes different folks..
again this is mho..
aho

[Tullip Troll]

Im a new Mom, on round two as two of my children are in their late teens and one is 4 months old.

I have been struggling with the vacine issue alot. I've read lots of studies, recent and old. Im choosing to not vacinate. Little boys seem to be the ones most affected. There does seem to be a huge link between the vaccine system and neuralogical disorders.

The possibilities they are looking at are vaccines (not just whats in them but the age they receive them and the amount they receive and the fact that maybe they are receiving too many knds) they are also looking at epidurals as well. They are looking at everything ! I do find it strnage how many more boys seem to be suffering through this then girls.

Here are a few studies and facts.

http://www.generationrescue.org/survey.html

http://www.vran.org/index.htm

http://www.gnb.ca/0208/pdf/reports/2004report-e.pdf

http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/vpd-mev/mumps-eng.php

http://www.gnb.ca/0000/pol/e/706AB.pdf

[Tullip Troll]

Sorry for two post in a row

also I'd like to say.

As a parent I try to make the best choices I can, with the information I have. In todays world of dangerous recalls, and lies for the sake of profit I do question the status quo and if more did perhaps we would have more truth.

I don't jump on hype but I am not a sheep either.

[lamoka]

Brava!!!! From one educated and continual learning non sheep to another.

[Philosophia]

Brava!!!! From one educated and continual learning non sheep to another.

Are you implying (and I may be wrong) that people who choose to vaccinate are sheep? There are many who have vaccinated and are educated on this topic extremely well.

[lamoka]

If you had read my earlier posts... uuuhhggg....
I believe... now this is MY belief.. in not blindly following... just because I am told blah, blah, blah does not make it so.. so I research, I read, listen, discuss both sides of an issue and then form my opinion based on the facts presented and what my innate wisdom values... thsoe who choose to vaccinate do the same I am sure... I know I did at the time..
I will not follow blindly like the referenced "sheep to the slaughter"
it is a catch phrase and has been used for "eons" .. come here sheep, we won't hurt you.. and then wham!...
I am not saying you are, or he is, or they are.. whatever..
I am saying that I refuse to be like the animal I referenced...
that would be all...
how one chooses to live is their choice... how one chooses to liken their life to whatever is their choice.. I am a lion, a lamb, a chicken, a ??????????????...
aho

[Philosophia]

If you had read my earlier posts... uuuhhggg....
I believe... now this is MY belief.. in not blindly following... just because I am told blah, blah, blah does not make it so.. so I research, I read, listen, discuss both sides of an issue and then form my opinion based on the facts presented and what my innate wisdom values... thsoe who choose to vaccinate do the same I am sure... I know I did at the time..
I will not follow blindly like the referenced "sheep to the slaughter"
it is a catch phrase and has been used for "eons" .. come here sheep, we won't hurt you.. and then wham!...
I am not saying you are, or he is, or they are.. whatever..
I am saying that I refuse to be like the animal I referenced...
that would be all...
how one chooses to live is their choice... how one chooses to liken their life to whatever is their choice.. I am a lion, a lamb, a chicken, a ??????????????...
aho

I have read your earlier posts, which is why I asked the question. I know its a catch phrase that has been used for a very long time, and I know that many people don't like being called a sheep. I was just asking a simple question because of how I read it. I meant no offense or insult.

[lamoka]

thats ok..

[Lunacie]

Im a new Mom, on round two as two of my children are in their late teens and one is 4 months old.

I have been struggling with the vacine issue alot. I've read lots of studies, recent and old. Im choosing to not vacinate. Little boys seem to be the ones most affected. There does seem to be a huge link between the vaccine system and neuralogical disorders.

The possibilities they are looking at are vaccines (not just whats in them but the age they receive them and the amount they receive and the fact that maybe they are receiving too many knds) they are also looking at epidurals as well. They are looking at everything ! I do find it strnage how many more boys seem to be suffering through this then girls.

Here are a few studies and facts.

http://www.generationrescue.org/survey.html

http://www.vran.org/index.htm

http://www.gnb.ca/0208/pdf/reports/2004report-e.pdf

http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/vpd-mev/mumps-eng.php

http://www.gnb.ca/0000/pol/e/706AB.pdf

Actually, I'm concerned (and many others are as well) that girls with Autism Spectrum Disorders are being overlooked in the same way that they were overlooked for ADHD issues. All these disorders present in somewhat different ways, generally speaking, between boys and girls. Girls are more likely to want to please their parents and their teachers and their friends and they may try harder to fit in, so their symptoms may be less obvious.

There is also the possiblility that boys are more likely to have a more serious form of these disorders than girls. Although if you were to ask me which is the more debilitating form of ADHD, the hyperactive or the innatentive, I'd be hard pressed to answer.

This is so similar to the way women's heart attacks were overlooked for so long because women often present with different symptoms than men. As it turns out, women have just as many or more heart attacks as men, but their symptoms arent the "classic textbook symptoms."

Doctors need to stop basing their diagnosis on one narrow set of criteria. People come in a great variety.

[SwordsFlameSong]

I am lucky as I have not had to personally deal with autism. I am concerned by the increase we are seeing in diagnosed cases of autism. I do not see people who are showing concern regarding the possible link between vaccines and this increase as denigrating and saying no vaccines whatsoever. I think that the possibility of a link needs to be further studied.

This country is experiencing an alarming increase in obesity, heart related problems and type 2 diabetes also. Why?

Beyond vaccines we have our fast food, high stess lifestyles. I am a type 2 diabetic who was uncontrolled. I had a dr who told me EVERYTHING - even my coffee would kill me. The med he put me on made me sick and he wouldn't listen. I quit seeing him and said screw it. I was a bit overweight for my size. On the high end of a healthy weight.

I was killing myself eating junk food and thinking I was screwed. In January, I radically changed my eating habits. I started exercising. I talked to a chiropractic I knew to get a new dr. I went in and my sugars were at 8 for the past 6 months. Normal is 4-6. The new doctor thought I was sol also and put me on a med. I had to get a new glucometer first. my blood sugars are normal lbased on the changes in my diet and lifestyle. At this time I do not have to take the med that could cause joint pain, weight gain etc and so on. My blood pressure has also gone down and he halved by med on that. When I last saw him - i had never experienced such honest happiness from a dr. he didn't condemn he supported. I also went from a size 14 to a size ten in two months. I feel great.

My point is that we need to examine everything when dealing with disease. WE do not know how things we put into our bodies - including vaccines - will impact us all in the long run. I don't think we can just blindly get the shots and take this or that med. We have to educate ourselves on our bodies and on the bodies of our children. We owe it to ourselves to be aware of what we are putting into our bodies.

Being concerned about possible side effects is not a bad thing and should not be denigrated. Nor does it indicate that the person who has this concern is being an all or nothing jerk.

[lamoka]

I am lucky as I have not had to personally deal with autism. I am concerned by the increase we are seeing in diagnosed cases of autism. I do not see people who are showing concern regarding the possible link between vaccines and this increase as denigrating and saying no vaccines whatsoever. I think that the possibility of a link needs to be further studied.

This country is experiencing an alarming increase in obesity, heart related problems and type 2 diabetes also. Why?

Beyond vaccines we have our fast food, high stess lifestyles. I am a type 2 diabetic who was uncontrolled. I had a dr who told me EVERYTHING - even my coffee would kill me. The med he put me on made me sick and he wouldn't listen. I quit seeing him and said screw it. I was a bit overweight for my size. On the high end of a healthy weight.

I was killing myself eating junk food and thinking I was screwed. In January, I radically changed my eating habits. I started exercising. I talked to a chiropractic I knew to get a new dr. I went in and my sugars were at 8 for the past 6 months. Normal is 4-6. The new doctor thought I was sol also and put me on a med. I had to get a new glucometer first. my blood sugars are normal lbased on the changes in my diet and lifestyle. At this time I do not have to take the med that could cause joint pain, weight gain etc and so on. My blood pressure has also gone down and he halved by med on that. When I last saw him - i had never experienced such honest happiness from a dr. he didn't condemn he supported. I also went from a size 14 to a size ten in two months. I feel great.

My point is that we need to examine everything when dealing with disease. WE do not know how things we put into our bodies - including vaccines - will impact us all in the long run. I don't think we can just blindly get the shots and take this or that med. We have to educate ourselves on our bodies and on the bodies of our children. We owe it to ourselves to be aware of what we are putting into our bodies.

Being concerned about possible side effects is not a bad thing and should not be denigrated. Nor does it indicate that the person who has this concern is being an all or nothing jerk.


Couldn't agree more with this ENTIRE POST....
aho

[SwordsFlameSong]

I do think we need to remember that doctor's, for the most part, do weigh the known benefits of any med against the side effects.

I do have a much better doctor than my old one. I have a doctor who discusses all aspects of my health care with me. For example, I smoke. Now, with my underlying health conditions this is not a good thing. I have tried numerous times and failed. So I am going to try this chantex. We discussed why I smoke. He told me that, as much as he wants me to quit as soon as possible for my health, he wants me to be comfortable with the safety nets I build in with my smoking issues. He told me it can make me nauseated and to start out at half the dose as I am small. He told me that, as they know it now, the benefits far outweigh the risks. He hopes in 20 years they won't find out it damaged more than thought it would. But it is the most effective drug out there for this kind of thing and the side effects do go away. In the now. The patients he has put on this drug have, thus far, experienced a 100% success rate.

I am adding nails to my coffin now with each cancer stick I light up. I agree with him about the benefits. But he didn't blow smoke my way on this either. I wish all doctors were like this gent.

[Lunacie]

Please clone your doctor and send him to me. :fpraise:

Too many doctors seem to simply prescribe one medication and when there are side effects they simply prescribe another to deal with those, and then another for the side effects from the second medication. I've seen people who are taking 20 different prescriptions a day, generally it all started from one issue. Often the side effects can be minimized or prevented by changing the dose of the first medication or trying a different medication. I will not go to a doctor who does the "prescription cascade effect."

Has this colored my perception of modern medicine? You betcha.

[SwordsFlameSong]

Dr J is awesome. He didn't scoff me when I told him I was a stress smoker. We talked about it. He didn't put me on a high cholesterol med - that is elevated - because he wants to give me 6 months with the changes I have made. He halved the dose of my blood pressure med becuase it was 103/64 and he hopes he can take me off that completely in three months. If he can't I can live with it. The medication he put me on helps protect the kidneys against diabetes complications. He hasn't put me back on my thyroid meds either as the numbers were barely elevated and he did another blood test on that.

When I first went in we both thought I was royally screwed. The numbers ended up not being as bad as we thought. The second time I presented him with a journal of what I am eating and my sugars. He's like "you are studying and testing yourself, looking at homeopathic remedies and conventional medicine." I guess that was refreshing for him as most just want a pill.

PS. I asked him about the benefits of garlic on cholesterol. He saw no harm in me adding and said if it increased the chance he wouldn't have to put me on a cholesterol drug than more power to me.

So I know, if I ask him about vaccinations or anything else he will be honest with me.

[imapepper]

Are you implying (and I may be wrong) that people who choose to vaccinate are sheep? There are many who have vaccinated and are educated on this topic extremely well.

QFT. Thank you.

[Lunacie]

Sorry for two post in a row

also I'd like to say.

As a parent I try to make the best choices I can, with the information I have. In todays world of dangerous recalls, and lies for the sake of profit I do question the status quo and if more did perhaps we would have more truth.

I don't jump on hype but I am not a sheep either.

I might have been one of those who doesn't give a second thought to the possible impact of vaccines, even though I have a family history of bad reactions to prescription drugs, if it hadn't been for my granddaughter being diagnosed with ASD and the research that has led me to do. If an issue doesn't directly affect most people, they usually don't think twice but just go along with the conventional wisdom, even though it has been proved to be lacking or just plain wrong in quite a few cases.

[Lunacie]

Dr J is awesome. He didn't scoff me when I told him I was a stress smoker. We talked about it. He didn't put me on a high cholesterol med - that is elevated - because he wants to give me 6 months with the changes I have made. He halved the dose of my blood pressure med becuase it was 103/64 and he hopes he can take me off that completely in three months. If he can't I can live with it. The medication he put me on helps protect the kidneys against diabetes complications. He hasn't put me back on my thyroid meds either as the numbers were barely elevated and he did another blood test on that.

When I first went in we both thought I was royally screwed. The numbers ended up not being as bad as we thought. The second time I presented him with a journal of what I am eating and my sugars. He's like "you are studying and testing yourself, looking at homeopathic remedies and conventional medicine." I guess that was refreshing for him as most just want a pill.

PS. I asked him about the benefits of garlic on cholesterol. He saw no harm in me adding and said if it increased the chance he wouldn't have to put me on a cholesterol drug than more power to me.

So I know, if I ask him about vaccinations or anything else he will be honest with me.

There are at least two factors that lead to people just wanting a pill. First, many are too lazy to do the research and make the life style changes that might eliminate the need for the doctor to prescribe drugs. But also, I think the medical community likes making money from our willingness to try all these new wonder drugs, so they don't encourage us to do the research and try combinations like conventional medicine and homeopathic or chiropractic.

[Cat]

I do not see people who are showing concern regarding the possible link between vaccines and this increase as denigrating and saying no vaccines whatsoever. I think that the possibility of a link needs to be further studied...I don't think we can just blindly get the shots and take this or that med. We have to educate ourselves on our bodies and on the bodies of our children. We owe it to ourselves to be aware of what we are putting into our bodies.

Being concerned about possible side effects is not a bad thing and should not be denigrated. Nor does it indicate that the person who has this concern is being an all or nothing jerk.

And most of us never said anything like that. I know I didn't.

I also didn't blindly vaccinate my kid because someone told me to, and I didn't blindly not vaccinate her because someone else told me not to.

My own opinion about whether to vaccinate is that I just don't care what other people do. I made my choice about my kid, other people should make their choices about their kids. Until and unless those choices affect the public welfare, its not my business.

.

[Brónach Druid]

I have argued the vaccine issue a few times in the parent forum....my opinion remains the same. As a parent it is your responsibility to research the issues. I do not believe all vaccines are necessary, for example, I do not feel that the chicken pox vaccine is a good idea. In general though, I am a firm believer in having children vaccinated and I am a person who research's everything! And I do not take nor give my children any medicine I do not feel is absolutely needed. I feel half the health problems in our country recently is due to the over prescribed use of antibiotics. So no, I am not just some sheep following the herd.
Lunacie, I understand as a grandmother of an autistic child your natural reaction is to look for a cause, as well you should, and explore every possible angle. Personally, I feel the link between vaccines and autism has already been disproved. If nothing else, think about this, the MMR vaccine has been given is the US since the early 60's, to me it makes no sense to blame the sudden rise in autism on a vaccine that has been administered for over 40 years. There are cases of unvaccinated children who are autistic, and autism typically can not be reliably diagnosed until a child is between 2 and 4 years old. These children do often appear to be "normal" and on mark before that.

[Lunacie]

I have not said that I believe the MMR vaccine causes all the reports of autism and related neurological disorders, but I do suspect it may play a part along with other factors. If some do not believe there is any chance of this possibility, that's fine with me as long as they don't call me stupid for continuing to be concerned.

BTW, according to my research, the MMR vaccine was licensed in the 1960's but wasn't widely used until the 1970's. Which is only a few years before I began hearing about autism as a diagnosis. Hmm?


edit:
Also, according to my research, there actually are signs of serious issues long before a child is 4 years old. We knew by the time my granddaughter was 3 that there was something wrong, but we didn't know what. She didn't speak until she was 4 years old, she exhibited stimming behavior, she was easily overstimulated and overwhelmed and had meltdowns that lasted for well over an hour at a time. Taking her out in public to the store or to eat a meal was most often impossible.

Autism is often suspected and sometimes diagnosed by the time a child is 2 years old, but doctors hesitate to put these labels on children, especially when they can't prescribe some medication to treat them and there aren't any drugs for the treatment of autism at this point.

[Sequoia]

Okay y'all, don't make me post the pictures of the children with smallpox again.

Vaccines have saved MORE lives than they have disturbed. Rarely, a child will have a reaction to a vaccine. This is usually around the mark of a high fever (which yes, can cause seizures as any parent should know about fevers). Rarely, a child will have an allergic reaction to a vaccine, with varying results.

But vaccines just don't cause autism. They may have their own side effects, but Autism just isn't one of them.

Now, I can understand the desperation that parents and grandparents feel when their child has a problem. In desperation, many people will turn to the "fad" problem - vaccines, vitamin "deficiencies", fluoridated water, and the list goes on. People group together and cling to a single reason.

I can also understand not wanting there to be a genetic component. Who really wants to know that they're the cause of their child's problems? Some people will go into denial about family susceptibility - even when multiple children or grandchildren exhibit similar problems.

Frankly, I think that these "rising" cases of Autism are more likely a combination of two things - 70% diagnosis-related, 30% pollution-related. What do I mean by "diagnosis-related"? Well... let's see. Fifty years ago, a child exhibiting Autistic symptoms would be labeled anything from "stupid" or "inattentive" to full blown "mentally-retarded". They would NOT receive a caring, attentive assessment and a comfortable label of a known condition. They were cast into the cruel world of "retardation", lumped together with hundreds of other conditions. Nobody cared about what kind of "retardation" it was. And of course, the more high-functioning kids were simply "anti-social", or "withdrawn", or "not paying enough attention / not trying hard enough".

How many "retarded" children in decades and centuries past were abandoned, exposed, left to die? How many persons collected accurate statistics on the incidence of various forms of retardation and illness?

Today, Autism is understood as a unique syndrome with specific symptoms. It is MORE WIDELY DIAGNOSED than it ever was in the past. Why? The word "Autism" barely even existed in the past few decades. Only NOW is it really coming to light. Not only that, but fairly normal individuals with slight developmental delays are being labeled as "Asperger's", which is again lumped together into the Autism statistics.

Now... what causes true Autism? I'm inclined to think of environmental effects, especially the heavy metals such as mercury and lead. Do you even know how much of this crap we breathe in each day, spewed out by filthy coal-burning facilities? Imagine you have a family who is genetically susceptible to a neurological illness. Back in the 1700s, they would have appeared normal. In the 1800s, they might have had slight problems, but nothing a family couldn't attribute to personality. By the 1900s, they might be noticing more severe troubles in some individuals. By the 1980s-2000s, with pollution running rampant, these genetic susceptibilities just have no more defenses left, and problems begin occurring in earnest. And you begin to see diseases appear in genetically susceptible individuals - anything from Autism and Bipolar to diabetes, MS, Parkinson's, and hundreds of other conditions that have "increased".

More diagnoses, a wider diagnosis "net" cast to catch individuals, and environmental factors easily explain the "increases" in cases of Autism. A handful of true "new" cases, and thousands of previously unrecognized or mis-categorized cases.

In conclusion... I'm inclined to agree that NOT vaccinating your children is stupid. YOU are alive today thanks to vaccines. WHY would you risk so much danger with your child's life?

Waiting to vaccinate may be waiting a week too long... in that time your child could catch one of these diseases. By all means, ask for vaccines separately. Carefully moniter your child for side effects such as a fever. TREAT side effects, such as fever.

But don't risk your child's life pretending that these diseases can't reach your child. They can. And they will. And then you'll be blaming someone else that they've become ill, disabled, or dead.

[Philosophia]

My point is that we need to examine everything when dealing with disease. WE do not know how things we put into our bodies - including vaccines - will impact us all in the long run. I don't think we can just blindly get the shots and take this or that med. We have to educate ourselves on our bodies and on the bodies of our children. We owe it to ourselves to be aware of what we are putting into our bodies.

Being concerned about possible side effects is not a bad thing and should not be denigrated. Nor does it indicate that the person who has this concern is being an all or nothing jerk.

I agree. But nobody here (including those that agree with vaccinations) has ever denied that. However, it also doesn't indicate that a person who has researched and still vaccinate are being an all or nothing jerk.

Personally, I believe that both sides of the spectrum need to realize that many people have researched, studied, and educated themselves on vaccinations and their possible side effects. A lot of studies have been conducted but most have a definite agenda in trying to push forward their viewpoints (this is from all sides).

Side effects occur in all medication, modern or homeopathy. The range of risks depends on how much a person takes, what they are taking, etc.. But there are risks in everything we do. Its up to us to determine whether the risks are real, if they outweigh the positives, etc. and act accordingly to what we feel. The risks involved in vaccinations are, in my opinion, small compared to what could happen when other illnesses occur.

Would I vaccinate my child, if I ever had one? Yes, but not for a few. I have researched a lot about vaccinations and I feel that the positives outweigh the risks. For everything I put into my body, I research to the best of my ability and weigh up the risks involved.

[Phoenix_Blue]

Rarely, a child will have a reaction to a vaccine.
*Smiles* And no one wants their child to be the one rare instance. I think it's perfectly justifiable, given the actual rates of measles, mumps, rubella, etc., to wait until a child's immune system is well-enough developed to create antibodies without placing the child's health at risk.

Because when it comes to your kid's health, even a 1-in-10,000 chance is too high.

[Tullip Troll]

My choice was based on odds, what are the odds of my little boy, developing a neurolgical disorder vs what are the odds of him getting ruebella and mumps and polio plus if he did get ruebella the chances again if he would have a bad time with ruebella etc.
Now reading Statistics, which is all we have, no clear cut yes or no's (so you people who keep saying Vaccines do not or do, there is no clear cut yes or no) a parent must base their choice and decide in which direction they will roll their dice. At this time there is mounting evidence around vaccines.

yes vaccines have saved lives, but the big question is (just like antibiotics) should we keep up the heavy vaccines if not needed. Do you still treat people for things that virtualy don't exist.

Personall;y I think we should treat as needed. thats with all things, stop taking antibiotics for flus and bugs that can be worked through. Start using alternatives. Stop vaccinating for dead diseases or diseases that can be worked through. Stop intervening on every little thing. Let our Bodies do what they are made to do. We already know that our many interventions have made super bugs. I am not saying never intervene, Im saying no more blind or blanket intervention.

No I never spell check I am always in a hurry ; )

[Philosophia]

*Smiles* And no one wants their child to be the one rare instance. I think it's perfectly justifiable, given the actual rates of measles, mumps, rubella, etc., to wait until a child's immune system is well-enough developed to create antibodies without placing the child's health at risk.

But the rates of measles, mumps, etc. increased when vaccinations decreased.

After vaccination rates dropped, the incidence of two of the three diseases increased greatly in the UK. 449 measles cases were confirmed in the first five months of 2006, with the first death since 1992; cases occurred in inadequately vaccinated children.[57] Mumps cases began rising in 1999 after years of very few cases, and by 2005 the United Kingdom was in a mumps epidemic with almost 5000 notifications in the first month of 2005 alone.[58] The age group affected was too old to have received the routine MMR immunizations around the time the paper by Wakefield et al. was published, and too young to have contracted natural mumps as a child, and thus to achieve a herd immunity effect. With the decline in mumps that followed the introduction of the MMR vaccine, these individuals had not been exposed to the disease, but still had no immunity, either natural or vaccine induced. Therefore, as immunization rates declined following the controversy and the disease re-emerged, they were susceptible to infection.[59] Measles and mumps cases continued in 2006, at incidence rates 13 and 37 times greater than respective 1998 levels.[60] Two children were severely and permanently damaged by measles encephalitis despite undergoing kidney transplantation in London.[61]

Disease outbreaks also caused casualties in nearby countries. 3,260 cases of measles were reported in the Netherlands outbreak of 1999–2000, 97% of which were in the unvaccinated Dutch Reformed community, and about 20% of these had serious complications including five cases of encephalitis and three deaths. 1,500 cases and three deaths were reported in the Irish outbreak of 2000, which occurred as a direct result of decreased vaccination rates following the MMR scare.[61]

From here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy).

so you people who keep saying Vaccines do not or do, there is no clear cut yes or no

Who said that?

yes vaccines have saved lives, but the big question is (just like antibiotics) should we keep up the heavy vaccines if not needed. Do you still treat people for things that virtualy don't exist.

The thing is, if we don't vaccinate, what's the likelihood of it returning? Or if they are in very low numbers, could they return with full force? Because we have a global community, the risk of these dead illnesses can increase due to the rate of vaccination within third world countries. I agree that some diseases don't need vaccines (children's chicken pox comes to mind) but there are many that do and they can't be worked through.

[Tullip Troll]

risks, vs risks, thats what were trying to sort out but we need more honest facts.

perferably from sources that have no money invested in the outcome

[Philosophia]

risks, vs risks, thats what were trying to sort out but we need more honest facts.

I agree.

perferably from sources that have no money invested in the outcome

Since both sides have a strong financial and ideological reason, the studies may be very hard to find.

[Lunacie]

Okay y'all, don't make me post the pictures of the children with smallpox again.

Most of the concern seems to center around the MMR vaccine, not the smallpox vaccine. Measles, mumps and rubella may have some serious lasting effects, but are the incidents of death or significant impairment from them that much higher than from the vaccines?

Vaccines have saved MORE lives than they have disturbed. Rarely, a child will have a reaction to a vaccine. This is usually around the mark of a high fever (which yes, can cause seizures as any parent should know about fevers). Rarely, a child will have an allergic reaction to a vaccine, with varying results.

At this time, that is what the data seems to indicate but as we've seen over the last few decades there have been too many deaths and alarming complications from prescription drugs that were thought to have been fully tested and have a safe history. Sometimes the data keeping has been incomplete, neh? It's not just the vaccines for children that concern me, it's the overall medical picture that has me concerned. But it's especially alarming when it's children who are affected.

But vaccines just don't cause autism. They may have their own side effects, but Autism just isn't one of them.

In your opinion...
In my opinion the jury is still out on this one.

Now, I can understand the desperation that parents and grandparents feel when their child has a problem. In desperation, many people will turn to the "fad" problem - vaccines, vitamin "deficiencies", fluoridated water, and the list goes on. People group together and cling to a single reason.

I can also understand not wanting there to be a genetic component. Who really wants to know that they're the cause of their child's problems? Some people will go into denial about family susceptibility - even when multiple children or grandchildren exhibit similar problems.

Probably this is true of some parents. But some of us are looking at the big picture, including genetic factors. One of my granddaughters and I both have ADHD, and their father (the other side of the family) has been diagnosed with Parkinson's, so I am certainly aware of the genetic permutations. However, the article that prompted this thread showed that although the mother had a genetic kink which had been passed on to her daughter, but only the daughter was affected by Autism. Doesn't that make you wonder just a little bit?

Frankly, I think that these "rising" cases of Autism are more likely a combination of two things - 70% diagnosis-related, 30% pollution-related. What do I mean by "diagnosis-related"? Well... let's see. Fifty years ago, a child exhibiting Autistic symptoms would be labeled anything from "stupid" or "inattentive" to full blown "mentally-retarded". They would NOT receive a caring, attentive assessment and a comfortable label of a known condition. They were cast into the cruel world of "retardation", lumped together with hundreds of other conditions. Nobody cared about what kind of "retardation" it was. And of course, the more high-functioning kids were simply "anti-social", or "withdrawn", or "not paying enough attention / not trying hard enough".

I've agreed all though this thread that there may be many factors involved in the exploding rate of neurological disorder diagnosis. It is even possible that 100 years ago the children who had ADHD were considered eccentric or wierd but were not ostracized the way they are in our modern society. However, the children who have Autism Spectrum Disorders generally have bigger problems than just being "anti-social, withdrawn, not paying enough attention, or not trying hard enough." That's ADHD you're describing, not Autism or Asperger's.

How many "retarded" children in decades and centuries past were abandoned, exposed, left to die? How many persons collected accurate statistics on the incidence of various forms of retardation and illness?

Today, Autism is understood as a unique syndrome with specific symptoms. It is MORE WIDELY DIAGNOSED than it ever was in the past. Why? The word "Autism" barely even existed in the past few decades. Only NOW is it really coming to light. Not only that, but fairly normal individuals with slight developmental delays are being labeled as "Asperger's", which is again lumped together into the Autism statistics.

Are you working in the mental health care field? In my own experience both online and with local support groups children who are being diagnosed with Autism have some real developmental delays, some serious social difficulties, and other problems that truly have the adults in their lives concerned.

Since the field of neurological brain studies and brain scans and tests for chemical imbalances is still relatively new, the whole business of diagnosing and classifying is still in flux. Some say Autism and Asperger's are different enough to warrant different diagnosis while others says they are similar enough to be considered on the same spectrum. But I am not seeing anyone diagnosed with any of these disorders who isn't seriously struggling with basic life skills appropriate to their age.

Actually, there is so much overlap in symptomology and behavior between all the neurological disorders (ADHD, Autism, Asperger's, BiPolar, Clinical Depression, OCD, ODD and any others) that it can be hard to make a diagnosis of just one issue. Added to that is