Cruel Vets?

[flar7]

Danu posted something about yipping dogs that reminded me of
something sad that I saw. These people had adopted a chihuahua
that couldnt bark because it had been surgically altered! Do you
think vets should be allowed to do this?

I think its a sign of animal cruelty, what do you think?







This may get moved later, just depends on which way discussion goes...

[Myst]

You don't know how much the vets were bothered and harassed to do it. Besides that they were just doing what the owners wanted - why blame them? I don't consider it animal cruelty - the dog was surely gassed during surgery and probably didn't have much pain - that surgery is probably less invasive then ovariohysterectomy's. I do think it's dumb tho - if they couldn't take the barking they don't damn well need a dog.

Blame the assinine owners that shouldn't have gotten a dog in the first place! Those kind of people make me :mad:

[flar7]

I dont mean to blame the vets, but do you think it should be a
case for the humane society? Should a vet be required to notify
the authorities if someone wants to "shut up" a dog?


edited to add. I have a great relationship with my vet.
but not all vets are nice guys. so this thread is not definitive on
that. It is definitely a pet owners fault for getting this surgery done.
But I think that maybe the humane society should be notified by law!

[Myst]

I suspect the humane society already has the arms full with cases of people beating their dogs or not feeding them or doing nasty things to them - I'm not sure if they would be willing to investigate a dog who had a legitimate surgery by a proper vet. I don't know about the humane society needing to look into it, but I still think the owners are dumb dumb dumb!!!

[flar7]

shoot. tried to change the thread name, but it didna woik!

I chose this name to get ya to look in people, but not to actually
slam vets. I just dont think it should be legal to maim an animal
that way.

[Melysande]

I actually agree with this practice. It doesn't hurt the dog because dogs (like people) have no pain receptors in their vocal cords. It was far more humane to silence a a dog that barks incessantly than it is to kill it outright.

Not all chihuahuas are as yappy as others. When these people found out that they had a chronic yapper, I think they made an extremely wise decision. Not only did they keep their "problem child" rather than abandoning it on a highway or giving it to a shelter, but they also saved their own sanity.

The dog was not hurt in any way and these owners should be commended.

**my 2 cents..... edited to make it 6 cents**


As to other maiming practices.... what about doing their ears or docking their tails? I disagree with doing those (Especially the way the tails USED to be done), but some breeds just wouldn't look right without it. I'm not sure what the reasoningis behind doing the ears, but the tail is done because some breeds have tails that are like whips that hurt like a son of a gun when they hit you.

Also, what about spaying and neutering? Does anyone disagree with this practice? Neither of these *needs* to be done, either. Males can be kept away from females and females can wear the bitch britches that are available. The only reason spaying/neutering is done is for the convenience of the owner. Just like the non-yappy dog procedure is for the convenience of the owner.

[Phoenix Blue]

**Nods** Neutering comes with its own set of health risks, to boot. Neutered cats should be kept on a urinary-tract-friendly diet, as they're more prone to blockage from "regular" cat foods.

But you know what? I'll deal with that, because it means my males don't spray all over the bloody house. :p

Declawing, I suspect, is much more controversial. . . :cool:

[Storm]

My sister is a vet tech and the vet she works with does not do the de-barking surg because she says it is horrendous. Personally, however, I would prefer to keep my pet than be forced to give it up.

I had a horrendous horrifying c-section and I do it a hundred times over again cause it means my beautiful son is alive. A pet can't make that choice but I bet it would if it could.

[Semele]

Ahhh Phoenix-Blue, you trouble maker!!:p I knew someone would bring up the whole declaw thing! Actually I was going to myself, because some do find it wrong. I, however, would like for my cats to live, so they are declawed usually very young at the same time they are neutered/spayed. That way they only go under anesthesia once. By live I mean, Mol would kill them if they scratched him/me/Trey one to many times. It is their natural defense but as kittens they just don't control it very well.

Take Krusty for instance. This is Trey's baby kitten. She hasn't been in for the treatment yet and usually does very well. The other day I was standing about five feet from the couch where she was and she decides she suddenly needs to be on me so she jumped and scratched me all the way down my stomach. My OB was a little concerned, in fact she said, "why don't you get her declawed?"

We have never had any problems with our declawed cats, they can still groom etc. and they don't seem to resent us for it.

As for clipping of ears and tails...I don't see much of a point. We have a pit bull and elected not to get hers done. She is too cute with her floppy, crooked ears and waggly tail. Besides I think it makes them look mean and that breed already has enough negative press attatched to it. Not sure how I feel on the de-yapping surgery...I guess it is less in humane than some of the afore mentioned alternatives. I just wonder if they do a similar procedure for six year old boys??!! hhhmmmmm!!!

[callalily]

We have our cats neutered -- we always seem to get males -- because they are outdoor cats and could easily be making kittens for years. There's too too many unwanted animals. We also always get them from the SPCA [she says self-righteously] so there are that fewer cats that get put down.

I too disagree with the docking of ears and tails. I saw a horrendous documentary on thye practice and it's horribly cruel and painful for the puppies, and for what? So people with gobs of money can get a "pure-breed" that looks "perfect"? I completely disagree!

[Phoenix Blue]

**Smiles** Y'know, Semele, before I called myself Phoenix Blue, I called myself Coyote. . . :bigredgri

I don't mind declawing cats, either--two of my three are declawed. The third gets his claws trimmed on a regular basis. . . **shrugs** he's over a year old, my furniture's already wrecked; so why put him through the trauma?

[Melysande]

I totally disapprove of declawing cats whenever possible because it gives them awful back problems later on in life.

[Phoenix Blue]

:eyebrow: I've never had a cat with back problems, and I've lived with cats as old as 10-11 years.

[Semele]

Yeah...our old man, Ozzy is older than dirt...we can't be sure of how old really because we got him as a "mature" adult who was already neutered and declawed. He has had a couple of close brushes with death but our awesome vet pulls him through, no back problems though, even though he is overweight!! When he passes we will have to bury Mol with him.

[Melysande]

Um, birdy... cats live to be 24. My whole family has never had a cat that lived to be less than 17.

[Phoenix Blue]

So is it my fault I haven't lived with a cat that old? :p Besides, by that age, they may well have back problems whether you declaw them or not.

[callalily]

Our cats are 13 and 14, respectively. One is huge, the other just plump. The huge one, when we got him as a kitten, was so small he could sit in my hand. Now he weighs about 15 lbs., bigger than some small dogs I've seen. :-)

[Myst]

Neutering and spaying can also prevent further behavioural and physical problems. Also, if you ever plan to have more then one cat, it is wise to fix them both (we have a male and female, as do most people we know have at least one male and one female) or at least one fixed (duh).

You have the people who think keeping the animal inside is cruel, and that believe letting it out is cruel (and of course if you're in the former you need to fix the cat!). Personally, we keep animals inside since we're in the city, but with my parents in the country and when we move out to a farm, there really isn't danger of them being harmed when they go outside. And really, to me the cat doesn't really mind the other way - they will adapt to one way or the other. I know even when we move to the farm Orion will love to go outside, whereas Andromeda probably never will. He's always the adventurer and she's skittish and shy. I'm sure neither harbour any ill will about it :)

Other then that, I wouldn't declaw, dock, or remove anything. Tho I can say declawing isn't that painful a procedure and you can get pain meds for the animal anyway, tho they often don't because if it doesn't hurt a bit to be a maniac sometimes the cat will be jumping and tearing around like nothing's changed and rip his stitches/claws open.

Incidentally not many cats live to 24 and when they do I suspect there could be more to their back problems then the claws.

As far as "commending" people for getting debarking surg.? If they'd done some research they probably wouldn't have gotten the dog in the first place. Especially a chihuahua, they're little big dogs and usually yappy - same with terrors, err I mean terriors, especially jack russel's. They could've just as easily got a lhasa. even a toy poodle as they are often not as yappy. Sorry I'm pretty stingy about people being stupid - do some research, then get a pet. Too many animals are mishandled or die because of stupid stupid owners.

[Melysande]

I wasn't commending them for getting the dog in the first place. I was commending them for dealing with their own mistake, rather than making it someone else's problem.

[Myst]

Originally posted by Melysande
I wasn't commending them for getting the dog in the first place. I was commending them for dealing with their own mistake, rather than making it someone else's problem.

Yep, I know. Sorry I kind of went off on a rant/tangent on bad owners. I knew what you meant :)

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth Myst:
You have the people who think keeping the animal inside is cruel, and that believe letting it out is cruel (and of course if you're in the former you need to fix the cat!). Personally, we keep animals inside since we're in the city, but with my parents in the country and when we move out to a farm, there really isn't danger of them being harmed when they go outside.
**Smiles** I'm in the latter camp. I live in a city, one block from a major four-lane road. My cats go outside once in a blue moon. . . usually when I accidentally let Fizzgig out the front door. :p


As far as "commending" people for getting debarking surg.? If they'd done some research they probably wouldn't have gotten the dog in the first place.
I would commend it given the less humane alternatives. :) But commend the action in-and-of-itself? You're right, there's nothing "commendable" about it. **Shrugs** Not necessarily anything wrong with it, either, though.

[Melysande]

**smiles at Myst**

[Rubi Waters]

At my vet's office (where I work :) ) we don't do tail or ear dockings or the debarking surgury, but we do Spay, neuter and declaw.

Our declaws stay 3 nights with us. We use pressure bandages instead of stitches or that awful glue. By the time the furry critters go home they are partially healed already and only require minimal care at home. That way if they happen to need pain meds we are there to give them those first few days.

Plus since I'm the tech working in the kennel , I spoil each and every "baby" that comes to us. :) The owners know I love the animals better than most people, and will do everything i can for them while they are in my care!
(can you tell i love my job?)

[Myst]

Incidentally you have to edit the thread by clicking that under Admin Options or whatever your dropdown box below the thread is labelled to edit the thread title so its reflected on the thread list in this forum, flar.

[Yvonne Belisle]

I have had 2 declawed cats in my life the first my parents had declawed when I was born for safety reasons and she had to wear a bell because she was a fantastic hunter and took out bluejays all the time even with no front claws and a bell. She was over 20 when she passed on with no back problems. The second lived to 10 and would have lived longer if some ()*(*+)( hadn't poisoned her and the neighborhood squirrels for eating her birds ad thier food. She was declawed because she was doing major damage to the house. We had to replace the supports in the basement and the window sills. The choice was to declaw her. My family doesn't believe in doing the back claws only the front so they can still protect themselves.

[flar7]

if you have to get your dog silenced, perhaps you should be the
bigger person and give it to another.

[Phoenix Blue]

Maybe they loved the dog and didn't want to give it away.

**Shrugs** I fail to see exactly how the dog was harmed, here.

[Myst]

Same reason some people don't believe in declawing or tail docking - unnecessary painful surgery that benefits the owner rather then the animal.

[Phoenix Blue]

Yeah, except as someone else pointed out: there're no pain receptors in the vocal chords. Therefore, the operation isn't painful to the animal.

[Edit] Well, no moreso than declawing. :) And both operations have benefit, to the animal's owner if not to the animal itself. And the owner's continued sanity is in the best interests of the dog, yes? :bigredgri

[Myst]

I'm glad you edited that before I could type out my smartass response :D

But if your'e asking why that surgery bugs me you have to remember I said I wouldn't declaw a cat either. Mine use the scratching post, and furniture is only something I sit on anyway :D

[Phoenix Blue]

Fastest fingers in the West! :bigredgri Umm, when I'm in the West, that is. . .

The one cat left in my house who has claws uses just about whatever he wants. **Shrugs** Couch, bed. . . me. . . and claw-trimming is a viable option, so I probably won't bother declawing any cats I own in the future.

[flar7]

imagine trying to scream in pain, yet you cannot for your voice
has been stolen. You can make no sounds to communicate with
the world. NO one can hear you if you are in distress. You cry
silently. When I heard this poor animals plight, I thought, how
criminal. Its pain is so obvious on its face when it tries to bark,
and no sound comes out.......this is true emotional cruelty.

[aquinnah]

I wonder if these chihuahua owners looked at the reasons their dog barked so much or if the surgery was their first recourse? Often dogs that bark uncontrollably are simply lonely, frustrated, bored, or sick. Dogs require attention and exercise and need to feel a part of the pack. Very often training helps. I have a four month old puppy (purebred American mixed breed rescued from a kill shelter in VA - thanks sterlingshelter.org for the rescue!). She knows she's part of the pack and never gets left alone for too long a period of time. She has her crazed puppy moments, but training works. Training teaches us humans how to communicate with dogs in a way they'll understand and to build respect and trust. In worst case scenarios, where other factors have been ruled out there are collars that can teach the dog not to bark. One is electric, similar to the invisible fence, and the other one uses a spray of citronella oil that gets released when the dog barks. They learn pretty quickly because they don't like the smell. I hope that chihuahua never meets a predator or gets stuck down in a well or something.......I can't say the same for the owners or the vet, though.

[Phoenix Blue]

Originally posted by flar7
imagine trying to scream in pain, yet you cannot for your voice
has been stolen. You can make no sounds to communicate with
the world. NO one can hear you if you are in distress. You cry
silently. When I heard this poor animals plight, I thought, how
criminal. Its pain is so obvious on its face when it tries to bark,
and no sound comes out.......this is true emotional cruelty.
:huh: That's silly; you're anthropomorphizing, here. And further, you're blowing this out of context--taking a dog that you saw for. . . how long?. . . and instantly condemning its owners for a treatment that you disagree with.

You don't live with the dog. You didn't take it to the vet, so you can't know if other options were discussed and other solutions attempted first. You don't know if this yipping was a nervous disorder or simply an unbreakable bad habit.

[Phoenix Blue]

They learn pretty quickly because they don't like the smell. I hope that chihuahua never meets a predator or gets stuck down in a well or something.......I can't say the same for the owners or the vet, though.
Oh, well, a death-wish for the owners ought to change their minds!

[Myst]

An animal in pain often communicates that in different ways then making noise though - they might limp or they'll be depressed or catatonic. However, it is true that in a fight or if they get suddenly hurt a silent dog will not be able to communicate that - I hope the people at least keep the dog in the house or keep an eye on it all the time.

Incidentally my experience has been that the electric and citronella collar don't work very well as they have to be loose enough not to choke the dog, and will thus be loose enough to easily turn to a section of the body that isn't shaven or away from the nose (the electric one has to be on skin, the citronella has to spray at the nose/face).

[Semele]

One thing my mom does with her yappy dog...Teddy the fat, fat, fat wienie dog, is to squirt his mouth with diluted lemon juice. If she picks it up he shuts right up and gives her sad eyes. It, however doesn't work with her Samoya...he seems to love the stuff. Strangely enough so does my son. No, I haven't been trying to train him with it...he sees grandma using it so he has to taste it when he's over there.

I feel your pain Flar...I think we all know that what you are really afraid of is someone cutting your whiny vocal cords out!! It may be worth mentioning to Doc K!!!!:D

Edited to add: How would you know if a Chiuaha (however you spell it) is sad...what do they look like when they are happy???! JK, I know of your love for the little rats!!

[Yvonne Belisle]

My dad found that the more he cut her claws the more she scratched the studs. The vet had us try sprays to keep her away from them and she had scratching posts she wouldn't touch. She was actually doing several hundreds of dollars worth of damage. Sometimes you have to make unpleasent choices.

[flar7]

actually, was more than one dog. And how many acts of cruelty
does it take? People that feel strongly for pets have done more
about their care and such, over much less. PB I understand you
feel differently, and thats you. I just dont limit the way I feel for
people or animals. I have to tolerate so much cruelty, that somethings
just stand out more.


Little dogs are very good at displaying sadness, they whine(if not
operated on) mope and such. But express pain? If you picked up
an injured dog, it would scream,bark,whine,etc. (usually) before
it tried to bite you. I say its wrong to deny the animal its voice.
If you wish to do this, then do so. I just think that it should be
considered animal cruelty. I have seen people lose their pets for
much less.

I dont plan on starting a petition, or storming the capital. This was
just my way of venting on a subject involving very insensitive treatement
of our little friends.

[Myst]

And on a side note, I'd suspect even if a dog couldn't bark that it'd be so used to being able to, were it in sudden pain it would still make the motions of whining/screaming/barking, so you would see that.

I *wish* I'd "seen owners lose their animals for much less". Here, you basically have to be running a puppy mill or publicly beating the animal before anything is done.

As far as an animal doing "hundreds of dollars in damages", well, I think, so what? Something that has been made painfully clear to me in the past while is that money, nice furniture, carpets, or anything material, means dick all. Certainly, I care more about how my pets feel then any thing they could scratch. Just my personal opinion and experiences though.

[Yvonne Belisle]

Well my family likes to have the ceiling supports where they are supposed to be. If the ceiling fell it would have taken the floor from the main floor and that could have killed more than the cat.

[Myst]

Yvonne, if a cat can scratch through a ceiling support beam it needs to be replaced anyway.

[*~*Chary*~*]

hmm .... a cat that can scratch through a ceiling support ... she must be a friend of sekhmet !!

Thats one heck of a dangerous kitty !!!
i would like to get in a cat fight with him/her ... oh sorry bad joke :D

[Yvonne Belisle]

She went threw three before the vet gave up with ideas and my dad said fine we will declaw her

[*~*Chary*~*]

Personally i could never de-claw a cat, to me that would be a breach of the cat's "honour" or self esteem ... and yes i may sound crazy but thats what i think

[SimplyStrange]

I don't declaw any of my cats either, Chary. That would be like someone ripping out my fingernails...

[Amethyst Rose]

The only altering surgery that I feel animals should get is to be spayed or neutered. There is really no reason for any other surgery.
Cutting ears and docking tails, is just plain stupid. Have you ever noticed how clumsy rottweilers without their tails are? It's because they don't have a tail to balance with. Nature put it there for a reason, so why take it off?? For looks??? For your comfort? What about the dog's comfort? (incidently, when I said this to my cousin his response was, "well nature put the sex organs there, but you'll remove them?" That's different though.)
And as for debarking.... how about taking the time to train your dog? I have two dogs, and both of them have been trained not to bark, except when we're playing. This is out of kindness to our neighbors, as well as to keep my own sanity.
Declawing.... well, there are alternatives to that, too.... training does help some of the time, but there are also these plastic claw covers that you can get. I saw them on the vet clinic's cat when I was last in. I thought that they had painted her claws, but it was actually just a plastic cover that you put over the claws so they don't do any damage when/if they scratch. I can't remember what they're called, unfortunately. It's a great idea though! If I had known about it, I would have gotten them for my cat, instead I suffered through ruined furnature.

There's my $0.10 :)

[Amethyst Rose]

Originally posted by SimplyStrange
I don't declaw any of my cats either, Chary. That would be like someone ripping out my fingernails...

Actually, it's the equivilant of cutting your finger off at the top knuckle. They don't just take out the nail, the take out the knuckle as well.

[lorhawks]

I work for a veterinary clinic. When I first started, I asked my vet what her views were on superficial surgery (declaws, docking, and vocal chord removal). She said that the vocal chord altering was considered so cruel, that they would not even teach it at her vet med school.

If you every watch any television shows by the RSPCA (the British equivalent of the humane society) the British consider american treatment of animals to be cruel on all of those issues. In fact, you CANNOT declaw a cat in Great Britain. The concept of slicing the vocal chords is a horror story.

I personally disagree with altering your animal as a matter of convenience for the owners. Cats scratch; dogs dig and bark. I've found that training helps with loud dogs, and clipping my cats' nails every month stops the obsessive scratching. I believe that neutering/spaying your pets is important, and a sign of a responsible owner, but so is monitoring estrus cycles and safekeeping a pet during it. However, there are far more health concerns for an unfixed pet. Unneutered males are at a much higher risk for prostate and testicular cancer, not to mention are generally more aggressive. Unspayed females are susceptible to mammary, uterine, and ovarian cancers, and if you had seen the mammary abscess on the 8 year-old schnauzer I saw last week, you'd think about spaying your pet when past breeding age.

Just my oppinion...

[Yvonne Belisle]

I wish the dr had suggested covers for her claws but in 1980 that wasn't one of the options he had for us.

[*~*Chary*~*]

Great Britain take animal welfare VERY seriously !!!!


The only altering surgery that I feel animals should get is to be spayed or neutered. There is really no reason for any other surgery.

well dogs sometimes need to have the dues claw removed (the one half way up their leg) as they can rip that easily on things and damage their leg forever.

[silentbreeze]

Anyone that declaws a cat should be obligated to have a de-fingering.

Just where the hell do people get off of torturing their animals anyway?

It's true, Great Britain DOES NOT declaw, period.

And anyone that thinks that furniture is more important than the psychological/emotional well-being of their pet doesn't deserve one.

just my NSHO.

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth silentbreeze:
Anyone that declaws a cat should be obligated to have a de-fingering.

Just where the hell do people get off of torturing their animals anyway?

It's true, Great Britain DOES NOT declaw, period.

And anyone that thinks that furniture is more important than the psychological/emotional well-being of their pet doesn't deserve one.

just my NSHO.
If you think I should be de-fingered, come and try it.

And if you want to claim that declawing a pet harms its emotional well-being, prove it. The anthropomorphism going on here is just sad. "Ohh, poor widdle kitty had his fingers chopped off!"

Poor widdle kitty will get over it. And I'm not concerned about my furniture--but I rather like my skin, thanks.

[WandererInGray]

No one's going to de-finger anyone. :rolleyes:

That said...a person's skin is just as easily saved by regular nail clippings.

*shrugs* I've been scratched by my cats more times than I care to count, sometimes they get infected, most of the time it hurts.....but every single time it's been my own darn fault I got scratched.

Heck, I scratch myself more with my own nails....*wicked grin*...Phoenix too, come to think of it....but I've yet to hear you suggest that I get declawed, love. ;) :D

[Phoenix Blue]

True on all points, Love. :smooch:

There're lots better things to be righteously indignant about, though. I love my cats and take wonderful care of them, so of course I take offense to someone suggesting that declawing them is abusive.

Hél, they don't even know they're declawed. Fizzgig regularly tries to sharpen his pads on the speakers (which would be toast if he still had claws), and Jupiter loves to knead my stomach (which wouldn't be in any better shape).

Disagree with declawing? Fine, but the holier-than-thou attitude is out-of-place.

[Yvonne Belisle]

Thank you Phoenix_Blue I think my father made the best choice for our family it wasn't something he simply decided for convience it was something he felt was nessisary and it wasn't an easy choice for him. I personally think it depends on the pet and the options around at the time. To simply say that it is cruel without being in the situation is to make assumptions that may not be true in that particular animals case.

[Semele]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue
I love my cats and take wonderful care of them, so of course I take offense to someone suggesting that declawing them is abusive.

Disagree with declawing? Fine, but the holier-than-thou attitude is out-of-place.


Hear Hear!!!

I totally agree. Anyone who knowsmy family or has visited our house knows that our animals are very much a part of the family and to insinuate that I would cause them harm to make my life easier quite irritates me.

We will very soon have a newborn in the house and cats are very attracted to all things baby. I love it and have always let my cats love the baby...Trey was a catlover before he knew what Mommy meant. However, some who visit the house feel differently and may try to shoo the cat away from the baby and the cat could accidentally scratch the baby in the process. Thankfully, all of our cats are declawed except for the youngest, and she is going in soon. So if anyone feels it is wrong to declaw...fine have your opinion and state it, but don't try to point accusing fingers at those of us who are also responsible pet lovers just because we view things a little differently.

I am a nurse and often have to do things to children and babies that seems cruel and yes at times very painful, but as an adult I can see that the good outweighs the bad.

[Myst]

Incidentally, declawing isn't any more like "ripping fingers off" then a gastric bypass is tying a rope around your belly or a lipo is like ripping fat out with a grapefruit spoon. Yes it does involve taking out the nail bed/knuckle, but is done carefully, cleanly, and with sterile instruments as well as anesthetic and pain meds if need be.

[Rubi Waters]

Originally posted by Myst
Incidentally, declawing isn't any more like "ripping fingers off" then a gastric bypass is tying a rope around your belly or a lipo is like ripping fat out with a grapefruit spoon. Yes it does involve taking out the nail bed/knuckle, but is done carefully, cleanly, and with sterile instruments as well as anesthetic and pain meds if need be.
exactly!!!!

[silentbreeze]

you speak nothing but a load of horse-pucky as far as I am concerned.

And it certainly isn't anthropomorphising to suggest that animals have emotions and feelings.

If you think otherwise then maybe it's because your animals don't feel inclcined to show you?


There is absolutely no excuse that I have ever seen to declaw a cat, period.

Abuse your animals if that makes you feel better, I'll hold onto my righteous indignation, thanks.

[WandererInGray]

:rolleyes:

SilentBreeze.....since you know absolutely nothing about Phoenix and the way he *does* treat his three lovely cats...I respectfully suggest that it is you who is "speaking a load of horse pucky".

Just because you don't agree with his position on the matter, doesn't mean you have to be disrespectful about it. For the record, I don't agree with declawing either, but it doesn't mean I go around calling him an animal abuser....because I KNOW for a fact that he doesn't abuse his animals. And they do infact show him quite a bit of love and affection.


And it certainly isn't anthropomorphising to suggest that animals have emotions and feelings.

Huh....the definition of "anthropomorphize" is To ascribe human characteristics to things not human. So technically, it is anthropomorphizing to suggest that animals have emotions and feelings.

[Amethyst Rose]

Originally posted by WandererInGray
Huh....the definition of "anthropomorphize" is To ascribe human characteristics to things not human. So technically, it is anthropomorphizing to suggest that animals have emotions and feelings.

While the definition is accurate, do people really believe that their animals don't have emotions and feelings? I think my dog has feelings.... so is it a bad thing to feel that way?
It's an emotional issue on both sides....

[Myst]

Personally I know my pets have emotions and feelings - I have only to see my dog mope when she's been in trouble or my cat being mischievious or the other cat begging for some lovin' to see that myself.

But do cats necessarily realize they don't have claws anymore, and do they necessarily care? It's like people who try to tell me I'm cruel because I don't let my cats out - who is anyone to tell me how my cats feel about that? They certainly don't seem to be miserable to me and I think I'd know better then some stranger.

I guess I see both sides of it.

[*~*Chary*~*]

Disagree with declawing? Fine, but the holier-than-thou attitude is out-of-place.

Here Here!!! I disagree with de-clawing but i realise that it is necessary sometimes and i dont believe it makes you any better or less of an owner. !!!


you speak nothing but a load of horse-pucky as far as I am concerned.

And it certainly isn't anthropomorphising to suggest that animals have emotions and feelings.

If you think otherwise then maybe it's because your animals don't feel inclcined to show you?


There is absolutely no excuse that I have ever seen to declaw a cat, period.

Abuse your animals if that makes you feel better, I'll hold onto my righteous indignation, thanks

Man, calm down ! He is entitled to his oppinion just as much as you or i or any other member of this family and i DO NOT believe for a seconf thast PB ABUSES his animals. And for the record i do not think you have any place to suggest such things as you do not know him,. Just my oppinion of course

Chary

[GoddessofWisdom]

I personally never got my cats declawed, not bc I think it's inhumane but bc they were indoor/outdoor cats and I wanted them to be able to defend themselves when they were out.

[Phoenix Blue]

**Smiles** Thanks, Chary and Wanderer both.

I know for a fact my cats have feelings. They're all wonderfully expressive. :) Fizzgig sharpens his pads frequently--something he wouldn't do if he realized he doesn't have claws. He also chased a stray tomcat out of the front yard on one occasion where he got past me and out the door; and I'm positive he wouldn't have done that if he knew he was declawed!

My cats never want for food, water, or attention; they're brushed regularly; and I spend $60 every two months for Frontline Plus, which is arguably the best flea-prevention product on the market. They're all spayed/neutered. And on the two who had their claws removed, I paid to have them given an extra shot of pain medication so that they'd feel comfortable after the surgery.

If you really think that's abuse, SilentBreeze, feel free to call the ASPCA and report it. But none of my cats are complaining.

[Yvonne Belisle]

You want abuse how about modern medicine. Or how about the fact that when someone is suffering and dying piece by piece with something like cancer they can't have someone help them go without more pain. They have to live with it as long as our wonderful medical people can keep them alive. It isn't the fault of the drs and nurses it is the fault of a system that can't give up even when there is no hope. We are far kinder to our pets when they have a body riddled with cancer we don't stick them in a hospital on life support and force thier body to live a bit longer in massive pain. We let them gently go on to thier next existance. So if along the way ssome are declawed at least they are asleep when it is done and they heal quickly there is not a lingering pain. Most of our pets get excellent care and in many instances it is far better than the care available to a human so it is my opinion that people should do what needs to be done for thier small members of thier family and those that don't like it don't have to live with those choices.

[Myst]

Uh some people don't let their animal "gently go" at all. I also know a lot of people don't consider it abuse to have treatment of illnesses such as cancer. Again, it's a matter of preference and personal opinion.

[WandererInGray]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue
.....But none of my cats are complaining.

:D Well actually Fizzgig complains a lot, but that's just because you don't "let him out this instant." ;) :T


*grins at Amethyst Rose* Naw, I know my cats have feelings too...that's just the spirit of my English teacher mother taking over in me....:D

[SerenityMoon]

frankly, i don't see how comparing a dog's inability to cry out in pain to a human's inability to scream is anthropomorphism. we feel pain, animals feel pain, everyone here has admitted it. so how is this anthropomorphism? that really makes no sense to me.
i saw a story, a long time ago, on television about these boys who tortured a neighbors dog, put it in a bag, and set it on fire. obviously, the owner was livid and wanted these kids prosecuted. the kids' parents thought they deserved next to no punishment, saying that it was "Just a dog". this kind of thinking sickens me. i'm not saying anyone here thinks that way; however, what i AM saying is that i think taking away a dog's voice is just as inhumane. research is extremely necessary before getting an animal, and if one cannot handle barking becuase of some reason or another, getting a dog is NOT a good idea. i don't agree with it, but it's kind of like abortion: i'm pro choice, but i'm not about to go force someone to go get an abortion, just as i'm not going to persuade someone to agree with me. there are two sides to everything.

[Myst]

Originally posted by SerenityMoon
frankly, i don't see how comparing a dog's inability to cry out in pain to a human's inability to scream is anthropomorphism. we feel pain, animals feel pain, everyone here has admitted it. so how is this anthropomorphism? that really makes no sense to me.

Probably because Phoenix wasn't even talking about dogs, he was talking about someone commenting on a cat's emotions upon being declawed, which really has nothing to do with crying out in pain or the inability to do so.

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth Myst:
Uh some people don't let their animal "gently go" at all. I also know a lot of people don't consider it abuse to have treatment of illnesses such as cancer. Again, it's a matter of preference and personal opinion.
I could be wrong, but I think the "gently go" thing with the terminal cancer may have been a reference to not allowing civilized deaths for human beings. That's one area where I think animals have more rights than humans(!).

The parents of the kids who burned the dog just don't get it. **Shrugs** If anything, that's where the kids got their blatant disregard for life, which I don't agree with at all. All life is sacred.

The danger of anthropomorphism is that pets don't have the same physiology or psychology as human beings. And what we may think they would be aware of, they oftentimes aren't--they don't have the same level of self-awareness that humans do, if they have any at all.

[Yvonne Belisle]

Yes Phoenix_Blue that is what I am talking about. At leat the option is there without fear of procicution. If you help a human you not only have the pain of thier loss to deal with you would have procicution for murder hanging over you. At least if my pet gets sick to where it is a slew of pain and there is zero chance for recovery I have the option to help it go to the otherside. With a person I have to watch them go downhill while the dr and the nurses are helpless to do anymore for them.

[SerenityMoon]

myst, actually i was commenting on something totally different. i was posting on phoenix's comment:
"That's silly; you're anthropomorphizing, here. And further, you're blowing this out of context--taking a dog that you saw for. . . how long?. . . and instantly condemning its owners for a treatment that you disagree with."
he was replying in reference to what flar7 said about the DOG, not the declawing. (which is obvious, because we're talking about screaming and voices, NOT claws)

[WandererInGray]

Just a thought on the anthropomorphizing comments.

I think what started the original discussion was the inferrance that animals (either cats or dogs) are some how psychologically tramautized by certain surgical procedures. (ie. voice mods or declawing)

Phoenix considered this to be anthropomorphizing and I agree. We have no way of knowing for certain if procedures like this cause some kind of psychological damage to an animal.

Therefore, it seems out of line to liken it to "torture" especially when the procedure is done in a clean surgical environment complete with anestisia.

[SerenityMoon]

well, i don't know anything about them being traumatized becuase i don't have the gift of reading animals' minds (*sweat drop*), but i do consider it an inhumane practice.