It's time to show the world what we really are.

[Darius Asgaroth]

Hello everybody. I was looking through a copy of the Webster's dictionary the other day and was startled to find that it defines the word witch as:
1. "A women who pratices black magic"
2. "An ugly, vicious old woman"
3. "A bewitching young woman or girl"

I am bothered that such a commonly used dictionary could be so wrong about things. First off, I am not a woman nor do I practice black magic. Second, I would never call any witch I've met an ugly, vicious hag. Personally I think that Webster should study a little more before throwing such harsh stereotypes at a group. From my experiences with other witches most of us are kind and giving. I think it is time for us to make a stand. I'm tired of being spit upon by those who think they're better than me. It is time for us to show these people what we are really like. It is time for us to kill the stereotypes that have haunted us for centuries. I want my children to grow in a world where they will not recieve the treatment I have faced. I will do anything to ensure that they don't.

[Myst]

So you plan to do...? What do you have in mind? :D

[Darius Asgaroth]

It could be anything. I know what the first step has to be though. We must come out with our beliefs. We can't keep hiding and hope people never find out what we are. Then we would have to do good things. Help with charities. Show the others how great our gift is when used for good.

[kcrys]

We could have an email potition for those interested in signing it sent out, or put on this board as a new thread?

Just a thought

Layde Kcrys

[Darius Asgaroth]

good that's the idea. We have to get positive things started that will show the rest of the world that we're good people.

[Theres]

maybe we could go door to door and hand out our magazine! or stand at airports and give people flowers.

actually Darius, i think you might have gotten hold of an older copy of Webster's. i do believe they have changed that definition as of a year or two ago. i know there was a big stink awhile ago about the Brittanica article about witchcraft being equally biased.
but ultimately, what does it matter? those who are so pig-headed as to define us by that are not going to change their minds because Webster's changes their definition.

[WtchyChick13]

Originally posted by Greenman
Maybe we could go door to door and hand out our magazine! or stand at airports and give people flowers.



LOLOLOL Everyone! Up at 6am on Sunday Mornings to go-a-knocking! (Hey they do it to us, right?) hehehe

There are other definitions in the latest Webster Dictionary, although yes, they do include the ones you mentioned, they now have the following:

Date: before 12th century
1 : one that is credited with usually malignant supernatural powers; especially : a woman practicing usually black witchcraft often with the aid of a devil or familiar : SORCERESS — compare WARLOCK
2 : an ugly old woman : HAG
3 : a charming or alluring girl or woman
4 : a practitioner of Wicca

Since they updated it every year, I'm sure that the definitions will only get more and more positive. They do however have to stick with the traditional no matter how we feel. After all, a certain stereotype has been linked to us. Sad? Yes. But this was the belief for a long, long time.

Besides, it is because of the old way of thinking that many of us (myself included) are still very much in the old "broom closet". It is my own choice and has not been thrusted upon me, it just makes my life a hell of a lot easier this way.

I'm sure though that it will only get better from here. There is only one way to go and that's up! :)

[Darius Asgaroth]

Webster's is not the big point. I think we should do everything within our power to better the image of witches.

[WtchyChick13]

I totally understand what you are saying. Actually, I had to revise my last post to include the fact that I'm in the "broom closet."

Yes, our image has been tarnished drastically because of the past, however, it seems that we are becoming more and more accepted. (In certain areas anyway.)

People need to start associating the word "witch" with the religion of Wicca a bit more--once that catches on and folks start to understand that, who knows?

[Theres]

Originally posted by WtchyChick13
People need to start associating the word "witch" with the religion of Wicca a bit more--once that catches on and folks start to understand that, who knows?

but then how will the NON-Wiccan witches feel?
personally, i don't think that a crusade is the answer. perhaps those witches who choose to live 'out of the closet', like myself, can lead by example. eventually (and these things notoriously take time) we will change people views by our actions.
but remember, the 'wicked witch' stereotype has a few centuries headstart!

[WtchyChick13]

Originally posted by Greenman


but then how will the NON-Wiccan witches feel?
personally, i don't think that a crusade is the answer. perhaps those witches who choose to live 'out of the closet', like myself, can lead by example. eventually (and these things notoriously take time) we will change people views by our actions.
but remember, the 'wicked witch' stereotype has a few centuries headstart!

Very well put. My apologies to the Non-Wiccans, I honestly wasn't thinking. (It's late and I'm on Zyrtec. LOL)

I don't think a crusade is the answer either. I think you stated my opinion much better than I did.

Thanks Greenman!!! :)

[Twig]

We must come out with our beliefs. We can't keep hiding and hope people never find out what we are. Then we would have to do good things. Help with charities. Show the others how great our gift is when used for good.

I used to think the same things 30~odd years ago. So did lots of other people. THat is why you enjoy the freedoms you now have. Belive me, you have NO idea of the freedoms of expression you enjoy compared to then.

Twig

[Phoenix Blue]

The word "Witch" has been around a lot longer than any neoPagan tradition. If you want to add an additional meaning to the definitions for the word, that's cool; but you can't just rewrite history. It doesn't work that way.

[Semele]

Originally posted by Darius Asgaroth
Webster's is not the big point. I think we should do everything within our power to better the image of witches.

Why?

Seems like a perfect waste of energy to me. Those with negative views aren't likely to change their minds if we march or sign petitions or other types of "action" to prove we wre worthy.

I am perfectly content being who I am and doing what I need to do and ignoring the rest of the world and their organized religion. I am not trying to convert or save anyone other than myself, so I preach to noone. I can't very well complain about the fundies and other groups who try to force their religion down my throat if I do the same.

[Storm]

Pumpkinhead, The Wizard of Oz, whatever...etc etc. You can't get past it so get over it. I am what I am and I never talked about religion before I stumbled on my path and I see no reason to talk about it now. If someone mentions it I would tell them and maybe they will look at me like I have three heads or they might walk away thinking "huh, you learn something new everyday". If you are going to color your hair green you'll get strange looks. If you wear a pentacle you may encounter remarks. It is the way of life. You cant change the world, you can only change the way you deal with it.

the ugly green hag I am sure is a christian based folklore superstition stereotype and it is centuries old and I am not offended by it.

[MammaStar]

The thought about "doing" good for othere, i.e. charities and such.

A LOT of us do that anyway, but we just don't disclose our religon. I'm not going to go to the women's shelter dropping off clothes saying "here I'm doing this, cause I'm a witch." I do it cause I'm human.

Do I like the sterotypes no. Which is why for the most part i'm "in the closet" too. But I do wear my pentacle and if someone asks me, I do answer, Yep, I'm a witch. :D

I'm with Semele's though (after all she is my future mother in law :lol: ) I don't have to prove to anyone who I am. I am me. :cool:

[Myst]

Originally posted by Darius Asgaroth
It could be anything. I know what the first step has to be though. We must come out with our beliefs. We can't keep hiding and hope people never find out what we are. Then we would have to do good things. Help with charities. Show the others how great our gift is when used for good.

I don't hide and never have. I also volunteer and have for years and I know many many other people have. Semele's right - many won't change their minds no matter what and it's not worth the time to try, and those who would probably already are open minded without us doing anything.

[ChelleOfShadows]

We came to America and ran the native Americans into the dredges of the continent. Those people came here why??? To escape religious persecution!! Slavery was ended years ago, yet people still hate blacks because they are black. We outraged over WWII and the atrocities that were done to the Jewish people and those who sympathised, yet there are still those who hate the Jews. We now have a war against terrorism, such a monstrous thing, yet when it is over, the people of Islam may still very well hate Americans.

As long as there has been human life on this planet, there has been anger, racism, and horrid things done in the name of one's race, creed or color.

Darius as I have said before, I am terribly sorry that you live somewhere where you are persecuted for your beliefs. However, in some other countries you would still be put to death.

You have an admirable zeal, I only wish you could put it to better use than attempting an uprising. To many people, Wicca, Paganism, many other personal (for want of a better word) religious choices considered "different" feel that their choice is a personal and private thing. Those who don't are making the marks they want to make without rising against the injustice that very few of us see in this day and time.

I have a life with my children, it is my choice on how to raise them. This is a free country and noone can tell me how to raise my children as long as they are loved, fed and taken care of.
Children are cruel enough to each other over the most minute thing to burden them with something they are in no way mature enough to make a decision on. I have allowed my children free choice, for the present my oldest has chosen the path, but if tomorrow he comes home and tells me he want to convert to Buddhism or Baptist it is something I will only say, son try it all now and when you are older then your decision will be clear!

I am sorry I do not mean to sound so very negative, however, I feel there are many causes in the world much more important than pushing Wicca in the worlds face and demanding acceptance. Yes other religions come knocking at my door, and yes at 8:00 am on a Saturday it really makes me mad. It doesn't give a good impression on their choice does it when it makes me so angry. I would rather have respect as a person than approval for my personal religious choices. Again, I use religious and religion for want of a better word. Geez this turned into a lecture eh? Sorry!

[Sequoia]

Darius -

While I think that it is a nice, idealistic view, I also see that there are problems with it, as others have stated.

It would be quite wonderful if we could do a "million-witches-march" or something of the like, a sort of "look at me, I'm a witch, and you must accept me for who and what I am! And I am not your definition of the word!" The problem being. . . to change such an old idea, will take much time. That witches are in the minority. That not all witches are wiccan, not all wiccans consider themselves 'witches', and that probably something akin to 90% of the major religions of this country associate "witch" with "evil", whether it is true or not. And for those people, especially those who hold their beliefs deep.. . . or perhaps, are insecure, and feel they need to prove their faith. . . you will become an example. An enemy. Or a mission.

You remember the black rights movement, correct? At least, the things you've learned about in school. Or women's rights. These were equally difficult things - changing an entire nation's mind. It took decades, and a lot of pain and suffering, for these people to get even a smidgent of what they wanted. And we still see today, racism, and sexism. There has yet to be complete equality. And to be quite frank, I seriously doubt there ever will be. It is human (barbaric) nature to segregate, seperate, judge, define, mock, create status, heirarchify (is that a word?).

I don't mean to sound so dismal, but. . . To achieve recognition, and equality, is a painful and slow process. And even once the laws and books and definitions say so, the people may not. They often do not. You cannot change history, and you cannot change someone's mind unless they wish to think differently. And those who are willing, are already learning. And those who are not, are already judging. A couple laws and a few newspaper articles are probably not going to change that much.

I will definately support any movements that are being wise about how they try to spread information. I will definately support groups who are trying to stride for equality.

You just have to realize, there is no ideal situation, no ideal world or country, and no magic wand to wave to correct the situation.

If you're willing to work for it. . . do so. But I wouldn't reccomend a crusade. They're awefully bloody, and don't usually accomplish much.

What would your definition of witch be? Of equality? Of victory? Think about it awhile.

Best Wishes,
Puma

[cherrywind]

Originally posted by ChelleOfShadows
I feel there are many causes in the world much more important than pushing Wicca in the worlds face and demanding acceptance.
I agree Chelle. While there are times when indeed that Paganism should be brought to light (specific cases where somebody is not allowed to have a job based solely on that, etc.), starting a crusade about that instead of focusing attention on much more global things seems rather disproportionate to me.

[Happydog]

Yes, there are other causes that are as important as letting people know that witches aren't all evil.

However, letting people know that witches aren't evil is important too, because it's part of standing up for what you believe in. It is difficult, and sometimes it's not prudent, to say something when you hear someone say something negative about witchcraft, Wicca, or paganism, but sometimes it's necessary to do it for your own mental health, to stand up for your own rights.

It doesn't have to be a big dramatic statement. It can just be, "Well, you know, I don't think that's fair. I think you can't judge people like that until you know them." Or it can take the form of someone writing a letter to Webster's and saying "Hey, I'm a witch, and that definition is no longer correct. (Yes, I know Webster's fixed their definition, I'm just using the example to make a point).

In other words, I recognize there are a lot more pressing issues than Wiccan/Pagan rights. However, there is no denying that witches of all sorts still do not have all the freedoms that other religions, particularly Christianity, are allowed. And it is not at all wrong or self-indulgent to point that out from time to time, nor is it inappropriate to stand up and fight for our rights when the circumstances call for it.

We live in a time where many officials in the government, particularly the odious John Ashcroft, are very openly born-again, intolerant Christians, and make no bones about it. If it were not for September 11, Mr. Ashcroft's agenda would certainly have included acting against groups of people who do not follow his God's will. The fact that he ordered clothes for the nude statues in the Rotunda is only the tip of the iceberg; read up on Mr. Ashcroft, our current head of the Department of Justice, and find out what a scary man he really is.

With people like the current administration in office, it may well become necessary for us to march and to stand up for our rights in a big way. And not just for our own rights to practice whatever religion we please. We may have to stand up for all our Constitutional rights, which are being attacked every day.

I am a little disturbed by all the white light passivity in the responses to the original post. Yes, we pagans are generally peace-loving people, but we should always have a warrior's heart and be quick to act against injustice when it is clear injustice has been done.

[Theres]

Originally posted by Happydog
The fact that he ordered clothes for the nude statues in the Rotunda is only the tip of the iceberg; read up on Mr. Ashcroft, our current head of the Department of Justice, and find out what a scary man he really is.

that was only because it was taking attention away from the even bigger boob standing in front of it! (himself).

i agree that no one should turn their backs on civil rights abuses of ANY sort. and i too am a bit disturbed by the arguement that "it doesn't do any good". nonsense! whether it does or not shouldn't make a damn bit of difference, if the cause is just and worth the fight.
but i think we have to pick our fights carefully, and spend our energies where they will do the most good.

as a Wiccan witch, i choose to spend my energy fighting against the atrocities being committed against our Mother. things such as the Alaskan wolf kill, Arctic drilling, and the easing of pollution restrictions for major corporations, and waste.
i fight the fight by driving a fuel efficient car, eating organic foods whenever possible, recycling AND buying recycled goods, standing on the frontline at old growth logging demonstrations, and voting 'Green', among other things.
against these obstacles, forcing my spiritual beliefs into the mainstream consciousness just doesn't seem that important, and may even be a bit hypocritical. if the other battles are won, the rest will take care of itself, imo.

[materra]

Darius you do have a way of making people think don't you? :) I have to admire your zest for taking on the big chores.
I agree we need to start changing the way people identify or perceive the word witch and witches. I don't know exactly how to go about it either. I just keep living my quiet life, working, doing good deeds, and occationally when someone I know askes what religion are you..tell them. It isn't a big dramatic kind of deal but seems to have been making a small difference. Person by person.

I live a caring and practical life, mostly quiet. But...I have had to fignt for my rights as a witch, I have had jobs lost because of my beliefs and I get mad when dofus's run our government. And I am concerned about the bigger picture.

I don't want to see anyone lose their constitutional rights and we seem to be heading down that path. I suspect, if this continues, having a clear definition in the dictionary will be the least of our concerns. I always thought the concept of thinking globally, act locally was a great idea. Lately the US governmet is runing amuck without any thoughts let alone reason. I am more worried we will be dead and imprisoned than badly defined in a dictionary.

In someways this echos your feelings and discriptions of the dangers you feel and act on. Perhaps we are dealing with different manifestations of this negativity and energy depleting forces in our world. Regardless, may the powers that be bless you and may they protect us all. We do truely need it.

[cherrywind]

Originally posted by Greenman

i agree that no one should turn their backs on civil rights abuses of ANY sort. and i too am a bit disturbed by the arguement that "it doesn't do any good". nonsense! whether it does or not shouldn't make a damn bit of difference, if the cause is just and worth the fight.
but i think we have to pick our fights carefully, and spend our energies where they will do the most good.
That exactly what I meant to say but couldn't say it as well :D.

[Darius Asgaroth]

I am doing everything in my power to change things. To start I am forming a clan in my area that will show the people around us that witches are around and that they would never guess. It will show that we are like everyone else. If that doesn't work my clan plans to begin plans for a colony of witches somewhere that will eventually become its own country.

[SerenityMoon]

um..i think people already KNOW that witches are around, darius. if they didn't, how would they be able to bad mouth or support them? if people didn't know wiccans/witches existed, how would they be able to badmouth jk rowling and her wonderful books? sure, they aren't KNOWLEDGABLE about what witches or wiccans really do or are, but they do know they exist.
you're going to create your own country?....................you can show you're like other people without doing that....o_O;; i think that's overdoing it a little....but that's my opinion *shrug*

[Phoenix Blue]

I know a few folks up in Montana who tried that "separate country" thing. It didn't end well for them. . . and secession from the United States is unconstitutional besides. So I hope you have an island or an oil derrick lined up for your relocation!

[cherrywind]

A community, like a commune or something, I could understand. A country? I believe that's going a little too far and rather unbelievable.

I've been one to believe seperation is never the answer if things can be discussed and handled properly. Saying "well, we're going to make our own country!" is a little juvenile, it's not that easy to just make a country.

[Old Witch]

I, for one, love this country.....don't want another one........

[MammaStar]

Originally posted by Old Witch
I, for one, love this country.....don't want another one........


What she said. :cool:

[mol]

Originally posted by Darius Asgaroth
Webster's is not the big point. I think we should do everything within our power to better the image of witches.

Aww man. Thanks a lot Darius. Now I have to agree with my wife. :p

Its a big waste of energy over a LABEL of all things. *sigh* But, ya know...whatever floats your boat.

[quixote]

there will always be people who don't share our viewpoint.their path is their own, just as we have our own paths in paganism. live your truth and know that you don't have to be accepted by everybody

[SerenityMoon]

i give a big round of applause to quixote! YAY!
<br> and i totally agree. you just have to accept that people will disagree. but who cares? love yourself, love who you are, and don't give a damn about these people. as long as they aren't physically harming you, your family, and your children, what does it matter? do you really care if these people love you?
<br> and i still think the country thing is going way too far o_o;