Sexism?

[RivaWitch]

This is a respond to the "Racism" topic posted.
I have not incountered racism but I have seen sexism. I have come in contact with people who were predigest against Gays & Lesbians practicing a fertility religion. They say they are dishonoring the God & Goddess by practicing any form of Paganism. Some go as far as saying groups like Dianic are created so Lesbians have a place to bash men.

I don't agree but it saddens me in this day there are some who think this way.


Riva

[Belgalad]

I agree. I've seen it all over the place in paganism (as well as pretty much everywhere else). Apparently, most people are decent at replacing the more blatant forms of poor mental/spiritual hygiene when they take on a new path, but less adept at removing the deeper stenches that they've grown up with. Most people who are sexist don't even smell it anymore. It's just "normal" to them.

The Dianic prejudice really, really disgusts me. They're the butt of so many jokes for no reason other than they have all-female covens. Apparently women are simply not allowed to have any spaces for themselves that men are not permitted to just waltz into whenever they wish. Talk about control issues!

But, you know, obviously, if a bunch of women want to get together and explore women's spirituality without, you know, men constantly throwing in their input about women's spirituality, then they must all be gay, or hate men, or both. :p

[Lupabitch]

We could go into a whole long discussion about -isms and phobias. Some people who are perfectly fine with "women's mysteries" and "men's mysteries" get all freaked out by transgender people. I've known male to female TG people who weren't allowed in women's circles "because you're not a REAL woman".

[aluokaloo]

someone on witchvox phrased it well, "We are people first, pagans second." Pagans are not all accepting, open minded, or tolerant of others. Why ? Because they are people. There are plenty of biased pagans among our ranks.

[Nox_Mortus]

I personally haven't encountered a lot of LGBT prejudice, but I'm well aware of existence and don't agree with it.

What I have seen is a lot of reactionary misandry, and from my experience a lot of this comes from Dianics, which may be why they are the butt end of a lot of jokes, I'm not saying that all Dianics are like that, but the majority of the ones I've met in person are.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

At the heart of every stereotype there is a grain of truth.
I will freely admit that my main prejudice in the pagan community is against idiots. I'll also admit that I don't care for the extremely rare but really noisy radical feminists, who I've fortunately only come across in books and the Internet. The reason women's groups get tarred with the feminazi brush is because there are, unfortunately, some women's groups and Dianic writers that are very misandritic, and as a male I take enormous issue with misandry. I have absolutely no problem with disregarding and viewing with contempt people who say that I shouldn't worship my Lady just because I have a meat and two veg.
There's a transgendered person in my community who I essentially view as family; him and his partner have done so very much for me that I cannot view them otherwise. There's been some talk of starting up the men's group, and while most of the men who're interested have no problem with the person in question being a member, a few have expressed reservations about it. I personally see no problem with it - if someone thinks male, acts male, talks male, then you know what? That person's a dude, dude.
One interesting aspect of sort of institutionalized sexism in my community is this: I was recently installed as Fetch (male Handmaiden) for the Hamilton temple of the Wiccan Church of Canada. Until fairly recently this would have been an Unheard Of Thing. I'm the third male to fill this role in any WCC temple, so far as I am aware. The gender politics of this are very curious: there are those who think that I must be more feminine, or possibly even gay, because I have chosen to take on this responsibility. There have been a few people who think that men should just be Summoners and women Handmaidens, as that's what most men and most women are somehow naturally good at. It's....odd.

[childofbast]

I've always felt really lucky in this department. I've never felt discriminated against sexually, and I hope I don't every come across as doing so. The groups I'm a part of are really open to any gender and any sexual orientation.

That being said, I do think it's fair that people have the ability to have exclusive groups, but open groups should be accepting.

[Philosophia]

I'm one of those Dianics that are so sick and tired of people who label us as "male hating feminazis" without properly knowing us. The majority I've met, both online and off (which is a lot), are not of the male bashing variety. Dianics are probably one of the most misunderstood groups in Paganism and it stems from people assuming (rather falsely) about how they practice and what they believe in. I have met Dianics and feminists who are misandric in nature but they are in the minority and shouldn't be used as a representation of the whole tradition. Unfortunately, bigotry does exist within Paganism

Its like saying that all Christians are fundamentalists, all Muslims are terrorists, all Astarus are racist, all Eclectics are fluffy, etc.. Stereotypes generally exist because most people are too scared to look beyond the common perceptions and find out what people truly believe in.

[Tanya]

As a straight female and a feminist... I'm saddened deeply by the behavior of some of my female witchy sisters.....

One of the reasons I left christianity was because I felt it was aggressively paternalistic....

and i would hate to see that replaced with an aggressively Maternalistic approach to religion... have we learned nothing from our spiritual disenfranchisement? that we would disenfranchize others?

One of the first covens I met was a group of Dianics. They seemed awesome and invited me to join.. but i got this bad feeling about one of them... the sort of feeling i've had at frat parties.... where you think you are talking about literature or religion or something else innocuous and you realize you are being primed for a 'hook-up"

so I was really open with this lady who was giving those vibes and said," Look, I'm straight. I've heard around that you aren't, and I don't care, but if you are asking me to join this coven because you want to date me. I have to tell you now with the greatest respect.. you aren't my type."

To which she replied... "How do you know unless you have tried?"

Now i have a number of friends who are gay, lesbian, bi and transgendered... and they have all spoken to me about their sexuality not as a 'choice' but in terms of 'this is simply what i am, like the color of my hair or skin...' and I totally get that.. because i know how that feels... i feel that way about MY sexuality too... i'm not choosing to be straight! I just AM.

so...I found that remark incredabily offensive and AGGRESSIVE... and I RAN not WALKED away from that coven.... and I've gotta say it's left a bad taste in my mouth.

I think one of the most beautiful thing about most pagan traditions is that it honours us for what we ARE not for what ANYONE thinks we OUGHT to be.

I would hate to see men or any other group treated like less... it pretty much goes agains my idea of what at least my brand of paganism is all about.

[Windsmith]

Oh, there's all sorts of "-isms" all over the place. We shouldn't assume that Pagans will be above it just because we want to see ourselves as somehow lofty and far above the human condition. Like aluokaloo said, we're people first.

I like Starhawk's writing a lot, but she's said some things that really burn my butter. One of the worst ones is something she said along the lines of how, if you want to balance a see-saw, you have to sit far on the other end. You can't balance the see-saw by sitting in the middle. There are women who honestly believe that the way for the world to overcome centuries of male supremacy and suppression of women is with a couple centuries of female supremacy and suppression of men. Doing unto others what they done to you isn't equality: it's revenge.

Of course, I've seen plenty of sexism toward women in Pagan circles, too. Funny how no one bats an eyelash when one of the leaders of my community organizes a Men's Mysteries workshop, but the 2 local Dianic groups are under constant scrutiny and criticism - just for existing, as near as I can tell.

There's this other form of sexism I see in Pagan circles that I don't see in the "world at large." In "normal" America, sexism is about denying women's power. In a lot of straight Pagan men I've met, it's about associating every woman they meet so closely with "the Goddess" that they fail to see her as a person. If she won't sleep with them, or if she chooses to work for a Fortune 100 company and drive an H2 rather than growing her own food and volunteer at a soup kitchen, she's "denying the Goddess within." Hey, buddy - the Goddess has many faces, or so you tell me. Why not extend women the same courtesy?

[Stoirmeacha]

This is a respond to the "Racism" topic posted.
I have not incountered racism but I have seen sexism. I have come in contact with people who were predigest against Gays & Lesbians practicing a fertility religion. They say they are dishonoring the God & Goddess by practicing any form of Paganism. Some go as far as saying groups like Dianic are created so Lesbians have a place to bash men.

I don't agree but it saddens me in this day there are some who think this way.


Riva

Which is ridiculous, because Greece and Rome was like homo-central....

[RivaWitch]

Which is ridiculous, because Greece and Rome was like homo-central....

Good point

[Earthwalker]

Does anyone else here sometimes feel that Neopaganism re-emphasizes sexist stereotypes rather than helps combat them, by at times obsessing over gender roles or maleness-femaleness? It's always bothered me that there's this tendency to slap the label 'masculine' and 'feminine' onto so many things. Whatever happened to just calling it like it is instead of reinforcing these outmoded gender constructs?

[FYI, sex = chromosomes & genetics; gender = social construct of behaviors/traits believed to be appropriate or intrinsic to each sex. While this distinction is often lost in casual conversation, I thought I'd mention it because I always speak of these terms with this understanding.]

[Belgalad]

Does anyone else here sometimes feel that Neopaganism re-emphasizes sexist stereotypes rather than helps combat them, by at times obsessing over gender roles or maleness-femaleness? It's always bothered me that there's this tendency to slap the label 'masculine' and 'feminine' onto so many things. Whatever happened to just calling it like it is instead of reinforcing these outmoded gender constructs?

[FYI, sex = chromosomes & genetics; gender = social construct of behaviors/traits believed to be appropriate or intrinsic to each sex. While this distinction is often lost in casual conversation, I thought I'd mention it because I always speak of these terms with this understanding.]

I absolutely agree!!!


And on the "misandry" note, I'd like to point out that I consider myself a radical pro-feminist and don't feel misandried against at all even on the far reaches of the internet. Mostly that's because I don't hear the phrase "men raping women is common" and assume the speaker is calling me, personally, a rapist rather than simply stating a fact that's been true since nearly the beginning of patriarchal time. I also don't assume the statement "pornography is bad because..." is somehow a hate-filled indictment of the male half of the species any more than I assume the statement "rabies is bad because..." is an anti-raccoon manifesto or "Blood diamonds are bad because..." is a misAfricanist rant.

I also don't consider excluding me from a space where I share none of the relevant experiences of the other people in that space to be a form of hatred against me. Cancer survivor groups exclude me because I'm not a cancer survivor and don't share or have anything to add to those experiences. Alcoholics Anonymous groups exclude me because I have nothing personal and relevant to add about alcoholism. Various clubs and groups whose memberships are based on the experiences of belonging to a minority ethnic group exclude me. Rich people groups exclude me. Great Literature book clubs exclude me. Coffee klatches exclude me. Tupperware parties exclude me. Horticulturist's flower-exchange groups exclude me. I'm pretty sure I'd be excluded from a bar-mitzvah. I'd certainly be excluded from a Holocaust survivors group. I'm not (yet, knock on wood) a Veteran of a Foreign War.

I don't think any sane person would be pissed off about any of those exclusions. I don't even know why I'd want to be a part of those groups just in the interest of some bass-ackwards notion of "hooyah, fairness!"

So why on earth should I whine about not being allowed in a women's spirituality group? Does anyone honestly believe these women haven't been exposed to the male position on women's spirituality to the point they should add men for "balance"? I mean, holy hell, everyone is drowning in the male position on women's (and every other kind) of spirituaity! If they need balance, they could just come here and say "Hey, dudes, what's your position on women's spirituality? We're totally interested!"

So, I guess my point is, "misandry" is in the eye of the male who currently is pouting because he's being excluded from something he has no business being involved with, or who is all indignant over someone pointing out a statistic or social science fact that everyone knows but is usually too PC to mention in mixed company.

I have yet to meet a woman who "hates men", and I've been all over the place in some spaces that might be considered "male hostile" and gotten nothing but welcome. Of course, that might be because I keep my mouth shut unless someone would like my opinion in those spaces, and I bug out when time comes to bug out, and I don't insist that butterflying my penis up backwards will make me a woman with all the attendent experiences and knowledge that come with a lifetime of being a woman. Even if I decide to add silicone bags to approximate boobies.

[Windsmith]

Does anyone else here sometimes feel that Neopaganism re-emphasizes sexist stereotypes rather than helps combat them, by at times obsessing over gender roles or maleness-femaleness? It's always bothered me that there's this tendency to slap the label 'masculine' and 'feminine' onto so many things. Whatever happened to just calling it like it is instead of reinforcing these outmoded gender constructs?Depends on which branch of Neopaganism we're talking about, but when you hit the right tradition (or wrong tradition, depending on your perspective), ohhhhhh yeah.

It's almost like some Pagan traditions don't recognize you as a "real" woman unless you're popping out babies underwater and tending a garden barefoot, or you're not a "real" man unless you're out communing with the spirit of the deer before you shoot it. What about women who want to shoot the deer? What about women who don't want babies? Aren't we "the Goddess," too? What about men who tend gardens barefoot? Aren't they "the God," too?

[RivaWitch]

I will admit I am hated by a few because I am a woman and not a feminist.
I see nothing wrong with the image of a woman tending to the home and or children.
If that is what I choose then that should be OK.

I notice women like to have the right to choose what she want to do with her life. Just as long as she chooses NOT to be a wife and mother.

Riva

[Nox_Mortus]

I absolutely agree!!!


And on the "misandry" note, I'd like to point out that I consider myself a radical pro-feminist and don't feel misandried against at all even on the far reaches of the internet. Mostly that's because I don't hear the phrase "men raping women is common" and assume the speaker is calling me, personally, a rapist rather than simply stating a fact that's been true since nearly the beginning of patriarchal time. I also don't assume the statement "pornography is bad because..." is somehow a hate-filled indictment of the male half of the species any more than I assume the statement "rabies is bad because..." is an anti-raccoon manifesto or "Blood diamonds are bad because..." is a misAfricanist rant.

I also don't consider excluding me from a space where I share none of the relevant experiences of the other people in that space to be a form of hatred against me. Cancer survivor groups exclude me because I'm not a cancer survivor and don't share or have anything to add to those experiences. Alcoholics Anonymous groups exclude me because I have nothing personal and relevant to add about alcoholism. Various clubs and groups whose memberships are based on the experiences of belonging to a minority ethnic group exclude me. Rich people groups exclude me. Great Literature book clubs exclude me. Coffee klatches exclude me. Tupperware parties exclude me. Horticulturist's flower-exchange groups exclude me. I'm pretty sure I'd be excluded from a bar-mitzvah. I'd certainly be excluded from a Holocaust survivors group. I'm not (yet, knock on wood) a Veteran of a Foreign War.

I don't think any sane person would be pissed off about any of those exclusions. I don't even know why I'd want to be a part of those groups just in the interest of some bass-ackwards notion of "hooyah, fairness!"

So why on earth should I whine about not being allowed in a women's spirituality group? Does anyone honestly believe these women haven't been exposed to the male position on women's spirituality to the point they should add men for "balance"? I mean, holy hell, everyone is drowning in the male position on women's (and every other kind) of spirituaity! If they need balance, they could just come here and say "Hey, dudes, what's your position on women's spirituality? We're totally interested!"

So, I guess my point is, "misandry" is in the eye of the male who currently is pouting because he's being excluded from something he has no business being involved with, or who is all indignant over someone pointing out a statistic or social science fact that everyone knows but is usually too PC to mention in mixed company.

I have yet to meet a woman who "hates men", and I've been all over the place in some spaces that might be considered "male hostile" and gotten nothing but welcome. Of course, that might be because I keep my mouth shut unless someone would like my opinion in those spaces, and I bug out when time comes to bug out, and I don't insist that butterflying my penis up backwards will make me a woman with all the attendent experiences and knowledge that come with a lifetime of being a woman. Even if I decide to add silicone bags to approximate boobies.

When I was talking about misandry I was talking about women who actually hate me, and if you haven't met any then you are pretty fortunate. I think it's rather arrogant of you to assume that we are talking about merely being excluded from womens spirituality groups, which is something I personally don't give two shits about, people should be able to practice whatever they want and if that includes excluding men, then so be it.

[Philosophia]

I will admit I am hated by a few because I am a woman and not a feminist.
I see nothing wrong with the image of a woman tending to the home and or children.
If that is what I choose then that should be OK.

I notice women like to have the right to choose what she want to do with her life. Just as long as she chooses NOT to be a wife and mother.

As a feminist, I have never heard from people that hate others because they have chosen to stay at home and have children. I have also never noticed that women cannot choose to be a wife and mother. A feminist can believe in all those things, do them, and still consider themselves to be one.

[Tanya]

I will admit I am hated by a few because I am a woman and not a feminist.
I see nothing wrong with the image of a woman tending to the home and or children.
If that is what I choose then that should be OK.

I notice women like to have the right to choose what she want to do with her life. Just as long as she chooses NOT to be a wife and mother.

Riva

I think what Windsmith was getting at is that we are all VALID in our expressons of our gender and sexuality.

people are complicated, and that's one of the cool things ABOUT them.

I chose to be a wife. And a mom. And a feminist... and a scientist. Its possible... at least for me... it works.

and I honor and respect any other mix of things that might work for somebody else.

for instance my husband is a bad-ass tattooed Harley dude who gardens bare foot, has a duck for a pet, honors the spirit of the deer and is a damned good home-maker.

my sister is a deer hunting mom of 2 and an MD.

Can't what we just ARE be cool enough. I think it is.

[RivaWitch]

I agree we have all met out share of...Anyway :-) I often tell folks to think twice about lumping all Christians into one catagory. Some are boldly Fundementalist but many are open minded and respectful to people who follow a different path. :smile:

Riva

[Fiamma]

There's this other form of sexism I see in Pagan circles that I don't see in the "world at large." In "normal" America, sexism is about denying women's power. In a lot of straight Pagan men I've met, it's about associating every woman they meet so closely with "the Goddess" that they fail to see her as a person. If she won't sleep with them, or if she chooses to work for a Fortune 100 company and drive an H2 rather than growing her own food and volunteer at a soup kitchen, she's "denying the Goddess within." Hey, buddy - the Goddess has many faces, or so you tell me. Why not extend women the same courtesy?


Funny, I've only ever seen this sort of thing from other women.

And if you don't like the maiden/mother/crone construct, oh it's okay honey, you'll understand when you're a mother yourself! What do you mean you don't want to have kids? but you must have the experience of motherhood blah blah blah womb blah blah blah goddess blah blah menstruation moon cycle spiral blabitty blabitty blabitty if you don't do that you're denying being in touch with the goddess.

Errrr.....yeeeeah.

[Belgalad]

When I was talking about misandry I was talking about women who actually hate me, and if you haven't met any then you are pretty fortunate. I think it's rather arrogant of you to assume that we are talking about merely being excluded from womens spirituality groups, which is something I personally don't give two shits about, people should be able to practice whatever they want and if that includes excluding men, then so be it.

I'd be really interested to hear about the nature of this "hatred" towards you. How has it been expressed? Have any misandrist women threatened to rape you? Brandished weapons at you? Vandalized your home or workplace? A brick through a window, perhaps? A burning wooden Mars symbol on your front lawn? Deny you a tee time at the local golf club?

I only ask because every single time I have heard something like this from a man, "hate" tends to mean "complain about men".

[Nox_Mortus]

I'd be really interested to hear about the nature of this "hatred" towards you. How has it been expressed? Have any misandrist women threatened to rape you? Brandished weapons at you? Vandalized your home or workplace? A brick through a window, perhaps? A burning wooden Mars symbol on your front lawn? Deny you a tee time at the local golf club?

I only ask because every single time I have heard something like this from a man, "hate" tends to mean "complain about men".

Well I've had people tell me that heterosexual sex is rape many times, that women where far superior to men at pretty much everything, that men have no business running anything etc. These weren't things said out of simple frustration either, these were long winded rants about how it's time for a matriarchy or whatever. I've never been overtly threatened with violence by these people, but apparently that has happened before to other people. Of course this is only one small group, but still the fact that they are there negates your argument that I'm only bitching about being excluded from activities that I wouldn't want to participate in anyway.

[RivaWitch]

Well I've had people tell me that heterosexual sex is rape many times, that women where far superior to men at pretty much everything, that men have no business running anything etc. These weren't things said out of simple frustration either, these were long winded rants about how it's time for a matriarchy or whatever. I've never been overtly threatened with violence by these people, but apparently that has happened before to other people. Of course this is only one small group, but still the fact that they are there negates your argument that I'm only bitching about being excluded from activities that I wouldn't want to participate in anyway.


Heterosexual sex is rape?? That's is worse as calling Heterosexuals breeders. 8O


Riva

[Jeremy Westenn]

First off you touched on homophobia, not sexism. ;) It is different but I will honestly say I have thus far only encountered one person in the pagan community via online that had issues with gays and lesbians. They are not the majority of this religion and it's branches, certainly not, and I think calling them a minority is a joke to because their so small.

I would actually say the majority of sexism though in Paganism is against men, not woman. And I have issues with it. My issue with Dianic covens and practices is that they quite explicitly participate in a religion that has a hisotrical basis of a male God and a female Goddess and essentially say, " Well, we don't like dealing with men and we don't want to so were not even going to bother with it, we also want to spend our whole life practicing and exploring being a woman (even though that shouldn't take your entire life or spiritual practice to experience), K? " and actually negate an allready acknowledged deity.

I find it unnaceptable, sexist, and egotistical, it drives me nuts and is one of the few instances where I will point at a Dianic Wiccan and say, " Your not a Wiccan, your something else, deal with it, ". It ain't right and it drives me up a wall.

But certainly I'd say allmost outright sexism in paganism is directed by woman and at men. That doesn't mean men aren't doing the discrimination with the expectation of some stuff above, but it's no where near as prevalant and I think most people here are aware of that.

[Windsmith]

I would actually say the majority of sexism though in Paganism is against men, not woman. And I have issues with it. My issue with Dianic covens and practices is that they quite explicitly participate in a religion that has a hisotrical basis of a male God and a female Goddess and essentially say, " Well, we don't like dealing with men and we don't want to so were not even going to bother with it, we also want to spend our whole life practicing and exploring being a woman (even though that shouldn't take your entire life or spiritual practice to experience), K? " and actually negate an allready acknowledged deity.

I find it unnaceptable, sexist, and egotistical, it drives me nuts and is one of the few instances where I will point at a Dianic Wiccan and say, " Your not a Wiccan, your something else, deal with it, ". It ain't right and it drives me up a wall.emphasis mine)But here you seem to be conflating Paganism and Wicca. Wicca may be a religion that has a historical basis of a male God and a female Goddess, but Paganism is a big house with a historical basis in hard polytheism, goddess-only monism, even atheism. A lot of Dianics I know have actually rejected the "Wiccan" label for just the reason you cite. They call themselves simply "Dianic Pagans." But then, some others choose to retain the label because everything else about their practice is hardline Wiccan, and to them, that justifies their continued use of the label. Unless they're getting in your face and telling you that you couldn't call yourself Wiccan unless you believed like they do, I'm not sure what you've gotten yourself in such a twist over. Why does what they call themselves bother you so much?

If you're going to be such a stickler over other people's terminology, it might help to start by turning the mirror on yourself, and asking yourself why you claim to see so much sexism in "Paganism," when what you're really talking about is a wee minority of Wiccans.

[Windsmith]

First off you touched on homophobia, not sexism. One other thing - do you not see these two issues as interconnected? When we're not talking about slavering Bible literalists, I see homophobia as a form of sexism. A lot of people's negativity against GLBT folks is that we're trangressing "normal" understanding of what a man or a woman is "supposed to" be and act like. I even see it within the GLBT community, when people say they don't like to go to particular queer bars because "the women are so butch, and the men are so queeny." Even within the community, we've internalized societal constructs about how men and women "are." I think that, until we can all surrender our preconceived gender notions (nooooo problem, right?), sexism and homophobia will be 2 inextricable prejudices feeding each other in a very vicious cycle.

[Jeremy Westenn]

But here you seem to be conflating Paganism and Wicca. Wicca may be a religion that has a historical basis of a male God and a female Goddess, but Paganism is a big house with a historical basis in hard polytheism, goddess-only monism, even atheism. A lot of Dianics I know have actually rejected the "Wiccan" label for just the reason you cite. They call themselves simply "Dianic Pagans." But then, some others choose to retain the label because everything else about their practice is hardline Wiccan, and to them, that justifies their continued use of the label. Unless they're getting in your face and telling you that you couldn't call yourself Wiccan unless you believed like they do, I'm not sure what you've gotten yourself in such a twist over. Why does what they call themselves bother you so much?

If you're going to be such a stickler over other people's terminology, it might help to start by turning the mirror on yourself, and asking yourself why you claim to see so much sexism in "Paganism," when what you're really talking about is a wee minority of Wiccans.

First off I recognize that people have right to practice what they want, but to the detriments of facts is where I take an issue. As for Dianic Wiccans and Pagans and the difference that's absolutely understandable, at the time I was writing specifically in reference to Dianic Wiccans, which I think most of them refer to themselves as. It's just one of those things that for whatever reason gets under my skin personally. /shrug.

When I say sexism in Paganism I didn't explain myself fully. I don't mean outright hatred towards men or being mean to people. I mean the sort of thing when where you have to do anything with the divine you go pray to the Goddess this, pray to the Goddess that, etc. etc. That sort of emphasis off the male counterpart that you do believe in and an all most superior appreciation of what is suppose to be an equal counter part.

<_< Do you understand what I mean now? :/

[Jeremy Westenn]

One other thing - do you not see these two issues as interconnected? When we're not talking about slavering Bible literalists, I see homophobia as a form of sexism. A lot of people's negativity against GLBT folks is that we're trangressing "normal" understanding of what a man or a woman is "supposed to" be and act like. I even see it within the GLBT community, when people say they don't like to go to particular queer bars because "the women are so butch, and the men are so queeny." Even within the community, we've internalized societal constructs about how men and women "are." I think that, until we can all surrender our preconceived gender notions (nooooo problem, right?), sexism and homophobia will be 2 inextricable prejudices feeding each other in a very vicious cycle.

I agree. :) I just wanted to clarify that the majority of homophobia in Paganism is very, very small and and the other form of sexism via against men and woman is so, so much more prevalant than the homophobia. Hope I didn't run that in circles there. :/

[Windsmith]

When I say sexism in Paganism I didn't explain myself fully. I don't mean outright hatred towards men or being mean to people. I mean the sort of thing when where you have to do anything with the divine you go pray to the Goddess this, pray to the Goddess that, etc. etc. That sort of emphasis off the male counterpart that you do believe in and an all most superior appreciation of what is suppose to be an equal counter part.

<_< Do you understand what I mean now? :/I do understand what you mean now, and I must say that now I agree with you even less! Sorry.

I believe that sexism (or racism or any other "ism") is only sexism when applied towards people. Now, granted, I'm a non-deist, which I know is a big part of our difference of opinions here. But, to me, if a woman is kind and respectful towards actual, physical men she encounters in her life, and honors them as her equals (which is what you seem to be implying), then she can pray to as many female deities as she wants, and ignore as many male deities as she wants, and she can in no way be called a sexist. For me, you can't be sexist towards gods.

[Jeremy Westenn]

I do understand what you mean now, and I must say that now I agree with you even less! Sorry.

I believe that sexism (or racism or any other "ism") is only sexism when applied towards people. Now, granted, I'm a non-deist, which I know is a big part of our difference of opinions here. But, to me, if a woman is kind and respectful towards actual, physical men she encounters in her life, and honors them as her equals (which is what you seem to be implying), then she can pray to as many female deities as she wants, and ignore as many male deities as she wants, and she can in no way be called a sexist. For me, you can't be sexist towards gods.

No, but you can acknowledge two beings as being equal, worship them, and then pay explicitly more attention to another based off that ones gender, and I think that's innappropriate. But that's just my view. ^_^

[Baba Yaga]

No, but you can acknowledge two beings as being equal, worship them, and then pay explicitly more attention to another based off that ones gender, and I think that's innappropriate. But that's just my view. ^_^

Maybe for most its just a matter of some people are closer to thier mother than thier father, and vice versa. Feeling a closer kinship and connection with one doesn't neccesarily marginalize the divinity of the other, although I am aware that some people do marginalize.

Of course, I'm not a wiccan, so I may be totally off base.

[Nox_Mortus]

Heterosexual sex is rape?? That's is worse as calling Heterosexuals breeders. 8O


Riva

Yeah thats what I said, but apparently this is a fairly common sentiment amongst extremely hardcore feminists.

[Philosophia]

Let me just say this, I'm a Dianic witch. The majority of Dianics are witches and call themselves such but not wiccans. Many do honor the God but do hold the Goddess up higher. This is a huge misconception about Dianic practices. Many Dianics do work or worship the God. They just don't do it with the Goddess. Also, it highly depends on whether they are monotheists, polytheists, etc.. And then you have differentiate them from Goddess worshipers (which is a different kettle of fish altogether). Plus, there are a lot of sub-sections and groups within the Dianic path that its difficult to even categorize them.

Not all Dianics are the same. You may encounter a few bad apples but the majority are not "male hating", "rape", "matriarchy", etc.. I've had bad experiences with Gardenians, reconstructionists, eclectics, etc. but I'm not going to base the whole tradition on the actions of a few. If a woman doesn't want to deal with a man, then so be it. That is their choice.

[Philosophia]

Yeah thats what I said, but apparently this is a fairly common sentiment amongst extremely hardcore feminists.

No, its not. For as long as I've been a feminist, I've heard that once or twice and by the same person.

[Nox_Mortus]

No, its not. For as long as I've been a feminist, I've heard that once or twice and by the same person.

I've heard that from about 50 different people, bare in mind I'm not talking about your average feminist, just the really extreme ones.

[Philosophia]

I've heard that from about 50 different people, bare in mind I'm not talking about your average feminist, just the really extreme ones.

The really extreme ones are an extreme minority. That being said, I have only heard it once or twice from the same person. Even radical or hardcore feminists (which I know many of) don't believe in that.

[Nox_Mortus]

The really extreme ones are an extreme minority. That being said, I have only heard it once or twice from the same person. Even radical or hardcore feminists (which I know many of) don't believe in that.

Yes, unfortunately they are a very loud persistent minority, which sort of gives feminism a bad name to a lot of people.

[Philosophia]

Yes, unfortunately they are a very loud persistent minority, which sort of gives feminism a bad name to a lot of people.

Unfortunately, yes. Its the same with most philosophical, political and religious organizations.

[Jeremy Westenn]

I have to actually balk at a Pagan that claims to be a monotheistic God or Goddess specific worshipping person. o_O How can you look at Wicca, a religion that is quite possibly not over 100 years old, wipe away apart of establishment and then presume to say there is no God but just a Goddess because it fits your view of reality?

But... Meh. Were running circles here. Or at least I am. O_o

[Nox_Mortus]

I have to actually balk at a Pagan that claims to be a monotheistic God or Goddess specific worshipping person. o_O How can you look at Wicca, a religion that is quite possibly not over 100 years old, wipe away apart of establishment and then presume to say there is no God but just a Goddess because it fits your view of reality?

But... Meh. Were running circles here. Or at least I am. O_o

Theres a lot more to Paganism than Wicca, although, yeah if they claimed to be Wiccan and only worshiped "the Goddess" then I would have a problem with that. It has however been stated that a lot of Dianics don't call themselves Wiccans.

[Jeremy Westenn]

Bah, I kinda fumbled my words on that. I meant to write balk at a Pagan that claims to essentially practice monotheism but practices Wicca in a way where they just tick off what doesn't work in their views.

But I actually hadn't been under the impression before that Dianic Wiccans were not all Wiccans. I was under the impression before this thread that Dianic= Wiccan. Learned something new. :)

[Belgalad]

Yeah thats what I said, but apparently this is a fairly common sentiment amongst extremely hardcore feminists.

I've been fairly active in both the internet and RL radical feminist communities and I have never heard this. I have heard a long complex explanation of the idea that the gendered power differential inherent in any western heterosexual relationship can make the question of consent academically sketchy, and I'm sure that someone without any perspective and a chip on his shoulder might hear that as "all sex is rape", but that's such a gross twisting of the concept that I'd be tempted to say it's an intentional misrepresentation of the entire hypothesis.

In short, radical feminists are going to say "all sex is rape" about as often as evolutionary biologists are going to say "we evolved from monkeys". Which is to say, never.

So no, I have never heard any feminist say "all sex is rape", and I seriously doubt you have either.

[Windsmith]

But... Meh. Were running circles here. Or at least I am. O_oMaybe that's got something to do with that spinning avatar you've got there... ;)

[Nox_Mortus]

I've been fairly active in both the internet and RL radical feminist communities and I have never heard this. I have heard a long complex explanation of the idea that the gendered power differential inherent in any western heterosexual relationship can make the question of consent academically sketchy, and I'm sure that someone without any perspective and a chip on his shoulder might hear that as "all sex is rape", but that's such a gross twisting of the concept that I'd be tempted to say it's an intentional misrepresentation of the entire hypothesis.

In short, radical feminists are going to say "all sex is rape" about as often as evolutionary biologists are going to say "we evolved from monkeys". Which is to say, never.

So no, I have never heard any feminist say "all sex is rape", and I seriously doubt you have either.

This is horribly arrogant and one sided, yes I have heard them say that, explicitly, I 've heard people talking about the power dynamics involved in sex and whatnot I know the difference. You seem to be in denial that like all groups, feminists have nutcases too.

[Belgalad]

This is horribly arrogant and one sided, yes I have heard them say that, explicitly, I 've heard people talking about the power dynamics involved in sex and whatnot I know the difference. You seem to be in denial that like all groups, feminists have nutcases too.

Find me an example and link me to the quote, then I'll believe you. Otherwise, you're simply repeating an urban legend as a personal experience, which makes me very suspicious. Same as when Creationists claim they really, honestly have heard evolutionists say specifically that "humans evolved from monkeys". They heard someone else say that evolutionists/feminists have said that, and they commit a fallacy of transference to give their position credibility that claim it was they, themselves, who heard the offending phrase.

[Nox_Mortus]

Find me an example and link me to the quote, then I'll believe you. Otherwise, you're simply repeating an urban legend as a personal experience, which makes me very suspicious. Same as when Creationists claim they really, honestly have heard evolutionists say specifically that "humans evolved from monkeys". They heard someone else say that evolutionists/feminists have said that, and they commit a fallacy of transference to give their position credibility that claim it was they, themselves, who heard the offending phrase.

I don't have any links, since i don't visit websites like that, I've heard this from people in person. I never said all or even the majority of feminists say this, just the really really extreme ones.

[Nox_Mortus]

Find me an example and link me to the quote, then I'll believe you. Otherwise, you're simply repeating an urban legend as a personal experience, which makes me very suspicious. Same as when Creationists claim they really, honestly have heard evolutionists say specifically that "humans evolved from monkeys". They heard someone else say that evolutionists/feminists have said that, and they commit a fallacy of transference to give their position credibility that claim it was they, themselves, who heard the offending phrase.

I don't have any links, since i don't visit websites like that, I've heard this from people in person. I never said all or even the majority of feminists say this, just the really really extreme ones.

[Belgalad]

I don't have any links

Exactly what I suspected. Thank you for admitting it.

[Nox_Mortus]

Exactly what I suspected. Thank you for admitting it.

Like I said before, don't accuse me of being liar because of your own willful ignorance and arrogance. I have a feeling that even if I posted links you would just write them off somehow.

but just because i felt like digging http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/faq/allsexisrape.html

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

Like I said before, don't accuse me of being liar because of your own willful ignorance and arrogance. I have a feeling that even if I posted links you would just write them off somehow.

but just because i felt like digging http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/faq/allsexisrape.html

While I support your stance on this view, Nox, I'm wondering if Communist sources are the best ones.
I wish I could find the list that one crazy psycho-'feminist' compiled that basically boiled down to 'if you so much as look at a woman the wrong way, it's rape'. I'll have to do some digging around.

[Nox_Mortus]

While I support your stance on this view, Nox, I'm wondering if Communist sources are the best ones.
I wish I could find the list that one crazy psycho-'feminist' compiled that basically boiled down to 'if you so much as look at a woman the wrong way, it's rape'. I'll have to do some digging around.

well this guy is saying that no feminists say that, I say that only the very extreme ones say that, which is why I can only find sources like this.

[David19]

That's ridiculous, how is being gay dishonoring a deity in any way? That's just an excuse to exclude gays from a group, not a theological reason.

I respect groups that want to worship or network as just women, or men or as gays, and I know that there are some theological reasons why certain sexes may be excluded from certain rituals or activities (for example, Brighid's flametending or Vestal Virgins), but when exclusiveness is the result of phobias, hate, or ignorance, then there is a major problem.

I agree with your post, but I did just want to add something, in Palo Mayombe, I've read that gay people (maybe all LGBT people) can't practice and/or become priests in the religion 'cause the spirits or possibly Gods (I'm not too sure whether the beings they serve are considered Gods or spirits, like in Vodou and Santeria) don't want them.

That said, I do really agree with your post :).

[Lunacie]

Cool, I have learned something today. I had never heard of "misandry" before.

I have had experience in real life with a group of Dianic Wiccans who might not have actually hated men, but certainly denegrated them at every opportunity (and from what I hear continue to do so), saying things like "men can't do magic." :lol: Balderdash.

Do I care if they call themselves "Wiccan" and devote themselves to only female goddesses? Nah. From what I've heard, most of them acknowledge that there are male gods, they just don't resonate with them or honor them specifically. Heck, I can relate to that as I have a goddess for a patron and have not encountered a god with whom I chose to work or who has called me to work in his behalf. That doesn't make me a misandrist, eh?

When I am working with my Grove in ritual, we honor both The Lord and The Lady, and when I do spells and rituals at my own personal altar I generally honor and invoke both a god and a goddess. But my personal connection with the divine spirit is through a feminine goddess. I used to think there was something wrong with me if I didn't have both a god and a goddess as patrons, but if they don't think it's necessary to call me to their service, then why should I worry?

[Jeremy Westenn]

I understand what you mean Lunacie, I'm really gravitating to Hecate in such a way I know I'm more then likely going to be exclusively worshipping her. I believe in male Gods but I don't feel called to them etc., and I don't really feel comfortable worshipping another deity beside Hecate. However, I don't espouse that all Gods are one God then try to exclude certain deities from that statement.

My issue is that there are some Wiccan Dianics, that refer to themselves as Dianic Wiccans and there are other general Wiccans who are Goddess specific and still espouse themselves as being Wiccans.

And that's fine to practice that way. But your not a Wiccan, your something else.

- Jeremy

[Lunacie]

I understand what you mean Lunacie, I'm really gravitating to Hecate in such a way I know I'm more then likely going to be exclusively worshipping her. I believe in male Gods but I don't feel called to them etc., and I don't really feel comfortable worshipping another deity beside Hecate. However, I don't espouse that all Gods are one God then try to exclude certain deities from that statement.

My issue is that there are some Wiccan Dianics, that refer to themselves as Dianic Wiccans and there are other general Wiccans who are Goddess specific and still espouse themselves as being Wiccans.

And that's fine to practice that way. But your not a Wiccan, your something else.

- Jeremy

Sorry but I don't agree with you. I know some Wiccans who claim if you don't practice skyclad you're not really Wiccan. Or if you don't use the scourge in your practice you're not really Wiccan. Or ... you get the idea.

I've always felt like if you follow most of the practices of Wicca and have a good reason for the change(s) you make, I don't have a problem with accepting that label.

From what I've read, Dianic Wiccans don't deny there is a god, they just don't include him in their rituals. I don't practice skyclad and I've never used a scourge in my rituals. Are we all making a mockery of the Wiccan religion?