Homosexual Spirituality

[Hamelyn]

First off, just let me say that I don't want to offend or start brewing up any hostile conversations with this. Please, try to take this as I mean it. That said, and with respect for the ideals and rules of this forum in mind, let us begin.

I've been speaking with a companion of mine, a dear friend and a sometimes-lover, about something. He is an admitted practicioner of Wicca (which I am not), and I believe that his boyfriend is, as well. There's a long tradition in male and female energies which I'm sure Wicca draws heavily upon... the Lord and Lady, Yang and Yin, The Natural World, and more. I've heard a couple of varying views on this, but I was curious to stir up and receive some opinions from the people in this forum: in regards to spirituality (Wiccan or otherwise), where do you think that homosexuality fits in? The Great Rite, masculine and femenine energies, Universal Stuff, and the like... thank you muchly for your time, all.

[Badgerval]

because I believe that all people have masculine and feminine energies within them - regardless of their gender or sexual orientation

[Haedis]

yeah i think that the polarity is more the masculine and feminine energies than the actual gender, but this view isnt typical of a lot of older traditions.
If it was an all female coven I think that its important for them to get in touch with their Animus in order to preserve that polarity, and the opposite for a male coven. As for the Great Rite (i assume this is literal not symbolic), the energies of the God and Goddess have to be present but I personally dont see a problem with doing that in a same sex situation.

btw, I think this question has come up before so you may want to do a search on this site

[cherrywind]

I'm not Wiccan, but I have the same view as Badgerval. Since I believe everybody has male/female energies, then what's the difference? I believe biological sex doesn't really have too much to do with it. Gender of course does though (as the two are different). A male can take on a female gender, therefore producing female energies, and a female can take on a male gender, producing male energies. I'm not just speaking about transsexuals, I'm talking about those who adopt behaviours associated with one gender or the other (and I'm talking culturally here, as many have more than one gender).

Remember, gender is a social phenomenon, biological sex isn't.

[Ben Gruagach]

There are same-sex relationships in mythology so gay or lesbian (or bisexual) rituals are certainly not impossible. Zeus was smitten with Ganymede and flew down in the form of a great eagle to "sweep him off his feet," as one example.

There are references to hermaphrodites (individuals having both genders) in mythology too. Alchemists use the imagery of the hermaphrodite frequently in their work. And the famous image of Baphomet by Eliphas Levi has both clearly masculine and feminine traits. And in some Native American cultures, homosexuals were considered to be "two-spirited people." Homosexuals in some cultures set their gay people apart to become the shamans of their tribes.

I wrote some ritual stuff (Wiccan-oriented) about working with one's anima and animus a few years ago. It's on my website at http://www.witchgrotto.com/ in the "Practice" section - the article is about creating a special Soul Doll to embody one's anima or animus.

I also wrote a same-sex Great Rite (symbolic) ritual based on Mesopotamian myth a few years back. It's on the web at http://www.touchofsilk.net/main/articles/showarticle.php?id=19 and possibly a few other places.

[Ben Gruagach]

A cool book that explores language and how it can influence our world (which sounds a lot to me like word-weaving, spell-casting, etc.) is Judy Grahn's "Another Mother Tongue: Gay Words, Gay Worlds." (ISBN 0-8070-7911-1)

The book was written as an exploration of gay/lesbian/bisexual history and culture, but is very pagan as well and goes into all sorts of "countercultural" and "non-mainstream" stuff.

[mato]

even in veiled reference...

Though not a wiccan (thank dog) I do have many things in common with it, and have heard many different sides of this topic. From one memorable wiccan I heard the following, "Wicca is based on the worship of a God and Goddess, their Great Rite is the holy of holies for wicca and it's followers. the polarity of male and female is necessary for wiccan practice. Homosexuality has no place in wicca (and homosexuals should not practice)." This generally did not elicite any objections (there was me of course, the odd one of the group... lol) by the group that had formed around the conversation and there were more than a few nods of acceptance.

However there are those that view it with the grades system, I dont. I see it more like what it really is, the union of two like forces (psycho spiritual explination deleted for the comfort of those reading :)), and that there is a rite (or three) of itself. The union of fire and air, the union of water and earth, the forging of metals ect... Wicca is full of differing unions, and not all are of the 'hetero' variety.

Of course do a search I have probably screamed simmilar to deaf ears (from former screaming of mine, good dog that's alot of noise to filter!)

[note the lack of caps used ;)]

[Ben Gruagach]

It's not surprising that there are some Wiccans who insist there is no room for gay men or lesbians within Wicca. You'll find homophobes in pretty much any crowd (even in the gay and lesbian community - self-hating gays and lesbians.)

I think if we were to do an "official survey" of the Wiccan community we'd probably find the vast majority have absolutely no problem with gay men and lesbians within Wicca, or with incorporating same-sex elements into the rituals. Alex Sanders, the founder of the Alexandrian tradtion (one of the older traditions, though not as old as Gardnerian) was a bisexual man. And there is lots of history in all sorts of cultures to support the inclusion of gay men and lesbians into magickal and religious work.

[Amethyst Rose]

Originally posted by mato

"Wicca is based on the worship of a God and Goddess, their Great Rite is the holy of holies for wicca and it's followers. the polarity of male and female is necessary for wiccan practice. Homosexuality has no place in wicca (and homosexuals should not practice)."

This practically made me choke on my water...what an absolutely and utterly horribly, close minded thing for someone to say. Speaking as a wiccan, I completly disagree with that statement and probably would have argued with the person who said it.
I agree with what Ben said...the majority of the Wiccan community would disagree with that, in fact, I've known the religion to be extremely accepting of gay people.
The way I see it, if the Dianics (those that are women only covens) are wiccan, then there's no problem having same sex people doing the great rite.

[Myst]

Some people focus too much on differences and separation - When I was Wiccan I thought of God and Goddess as One, and that each of us have God and Goddess within us. Why focus on separation and exclusion rather then realizing we are all connected, we are all kith and kin, we are all one, and so it should follow that each of us have masculine and feminine within us and each of us can and should celebrate the Gods as we will.

Wasn't it Valiente herself who said "live and let live, fairly take and fairly give"?

[Ben Gruagach]

Here's where the Wiccan "live and let live, fairly take and fairly give" comes from:


Rede of the Wiccae
Also known as The Wiccan Rede - long form, and The Counsel of the Wise.
First published by Lady Gwen Thompson, in Green Egg magazine (Spring Equinox 1975, vol. III, #69.)
Lady Gwen Thompson claimed to have received this from her grandmother, Adriana Porter, in 1946.
Lady Gwen Thompson founded the New England Coven of Traditionalist Witches (NECTW.) She died in 1986.


Bide the Wiccan laws ye must in perfect love and perfect trust
Live ye must and let to live, fairly take and fairly give
Form the circle thrice about to keep unwelcome spirits out
To bind a spell right every time, let the spell be spake in rythme
Soft of eye and light of touch, speak ye little, listen much
Deosil go by the waxing moon, singing out the Witches' Rune
Widdershins go by the waning moon, chanting out the baneful tune
When the Lady's moon is new, kiss your hand to Her times two
When the moon rides at Her peak, then your heart's desire seek
Heed the North wind's mighty gale, lock the door and trim the sail
When the wind comes from the South, Love will kiss thee on thy mouth
When the wind blows from the West, departed souls may have no rest
When the wind blows from the East, expect the new and set the feast
Nine woods in the cauldron go, burn them fast and burn them slow
Elder be the Lady's tree, burn it not or cursed ye'll be
When the Wheel begins to turn, soon the Beltane fires will burn
When the wheel hath turned to Yule, light a log, the Horned One rules
Heed ye flower, bush and tree, by the Lady blessed be
Where the rippling waters flow, cast a stone and truth ye'll know
When ye have and hold a need, harken not to others greed
With a fool no season spend, nor be counted as his friend
Merry meet and merry part, bright the cheeks and warm the heart
Mind the threefold law ye should, three times bad and three times good
When misfortune is anow, wear the star upon thy brow
True in love ye must ever be, lest thy love be false to thee
In these eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill,
'An it harm none, do what ye will'.

[Myst]

Actually, Ben, we're getting a little off topic here but there is some contention on who the Rede should be attributed to. For interest's sake, I direct you to the commentary at http://www.pagan.drak.net/sheathomas/

" Thompson's byline only indicated that Thompson was the individual who submitted the poem to the magazine, and that Thompson herself obtained it from Porter. Whether Porter (or Thompson) wrote or collaborated on the poem, or obtained it elsewhere, remains an unanswered question."

http://www.pagan.drak.net/sheathomas/poem.html

The point beyond arguing over who wrote what being these words were always a fundamental part of Wicca, regardless of who author'd them. I am time and time again surprised by people who have no idea what foundations or ideas Wicca was built on and instead try to twist it into something that supports their beliefs.

[Ben Gruagach]

Originally posted by Myst

" Thompson's byline only indicated that Thompson was the individual who submitted the poem to the magazine, and that Thompson herself obtained it from Porter. Whether Porter (or Thompson) wrote or collaborated on the poem, or obtained it elsewhere, remains an unanswered question."
http://www.pagan.drak.net/sheathomas/poem.html


Thanks for that link, Myst.

Whenever I post that poem, I include the bit about where it came from (at least as it is documented.) That's the best I think anyone can expect.

I'm a bit suspicious of it myself because evidence suggests the Wiccan Rede, "an it harm none, do as you will" was very much a Gardnerian inclusion - since there isn't any real evidence for the religion called Wicca anyway prior to Uncle Gerald (bless his exhibitionist soul.) I have wondered if Thompson wrote it and then claimed it "came from her grandmother" as that seems to have been a popular trick to try and claim traditional authority.

Getting back to the topic of homosexual spirituality, if the Rede of the Wiccae really was written back as long ago as 1946, it could be used to support including gay men, lesbians, transgender, hermaphroditic, bisexual, and whatever-sexual people in Wicca. It's pretty open, what with the "live ye must and let to live, fairly take and fairly give" and the whole "an it harm none, do as you will" bits. It certainly doesn't say anything about "heterosexuals only"!

[Storm]

Originally posted by cherrywind


Remember, gender is a social phenomenon, biological sex isn't.

This is not true. It is proven that gender is biological not social. And as with anything biological and our extremely large population, you have variation.. tomboys and efeminate boys. (Of course the roles we play are socialogical.) To give an example..boys with botched circs. raised as girls always know something is wrong. I could go on but if you want to read more on that a GREAT book is Demonic Males by Richard Wrangham and Dale Peterson. It is about the evolution of violence in primates and humans. Anyway this is off the subject.

[Ben Gruagach]

RE: whether gender is "nature" or "nurture"


Originally posted by Storm
This is not true. It is proven that gender is biological not social. And as with anything biological and our extremely large population, you have variation.. tomboys and efeminate boys.

I don't think there is enough evidence to prove that gender is JUST biological ("nature") or JUST socially constructed ("nurture"). There are excellent arguments for both sides, very strong arguments, which suggest it is likely a combination of both. Hey, it's also likely that there are factors which haven't even been considered yet which could have a big part in determining gender.

My understanding of the original statement, that gender is a social phenomenon, was to point out that within ritual (specifically such as in the male-female polarity rituals of Wicca) there is certainly gender-role variability - women can play "male" roles and men can play "female" roles. It has nothing to do with sexual orientation. Many Wiccans (and I dare say many modern Pagans) feel that we all have both masculine and feminine within us, so there is no real reason to insist that men only play the masculine roles in a ritual, and women only play the feminine roles.

[Gwion]

is performed by a man and a woman. There are no variations.

[Hamelyn]

*quirks brow* Interesting zeal there, good man.

What makes you come to that conclusion?

[Gwion]

That's the balance. People of other persuasions may have sacred sex, but in my tradition, the Great Rite is performed by a man and a woman.

[Hamelyn]

In your mind, what's the difference between sacred sex and the Great Rite, if I might ask? Definitions and the like for you, meanings to you?

Just trying to get a handle on the topic, man. Not interrogating or anything.

[Gwion]

The Great Rite specifically invokes the power brought by the polarity of male and female. It is possible to have sacred sex without the intention of invoking the Great Rite.

[Ben Gruagach]

Originally posted by Gwion
That's the balance. People of other persuasions may have sacred sex, but in my tradition, the Great Rite is performed by a man and a woman.

That's the key bit there, Gwion. In your specific tradition the Great Rite is always a male-female thing. Your specific tradition is but one among many in Wicca. And in the larger Pagan community, Wicca is only one part of a larger group as well.

There are Wiccan groups who perform same-sex Great Rite rituals. I think that's wonderful. No one is suggesting that your specific tradition must change its philosophy regarding the enacting and purpose of the Great Rite - but other Wiccans also have the right to their difference of opinion on the matter.

To me, polarity is all about interaction and tension (not necessarily tension in a bad way, but tension as an acknowledgement of difference and attraction). It's a dance between two forces. Heat and cold, light and dark, day and night, male and female, big and small, yin and yang, polarity is expressed in all sorts of dual-item interactions. To me, the Great Rite is a sexual rite (if only symbolically) but that doesn't mean it is strictly a male-female thing.

I would venture to say that the Great Rite as a sexual ritual centred on the idea of tension between forces could also be a solitary ritual. I know that goes against your specific tradition's stance, Gwion, but I'm positive I'm not the first person to suggest this idea.

(For those interested in exploring the idea of a solitary Great Rite, Patricia Telesco describes a suggested one in her book "Advanced Wicca.")

Wicca is not an authoritative religion, with a pope or single text which is the absolute authority on all things. That means that we have freedom for variety - we're not all expected to have the same philosophy in all specifics, nor practice the same way, nor believe the same things. I think that's one of the greatest strengths of our path - it's one where we take personal responsibility for our paths. No one is going to give us "the answers." There is no "One True and Only Way" for us. There are plenty of religions out there that do claim to be the "One True and Only Way" so people who are looking for that don't need to look too far. Wicca just isn't one of them.

Wiccans who aren't comfortable with the idea of anything other than a male-female Great Rite are welcome to stay with what they feel works for them. But there is plenty of room in Wicca for variety - same-sex (or even solitary) Great Rites are just as valid for those who feel it works for them.

[Gwion]

but that claim is just as meaningless to me as this one. I wouldn't presume to tell Dianics what to do in their tradition, but I wouldn't expect to attend one of their circles anyway. But they don't have a female-male polarity no matter what they call a Great Rite.

>solitary Great Rites<

Okey-dokey. Here, have a sacred paper towel. (Backing away)

[Ben Gruagach]

Originally posted by Gwion
Satanists may call themselves Witches...but that claim is just as meaningless to me as this one. I wouldn't presume to tell Dianics what to do in their tradition, but I wouldn't expect to attend one of their circles anyway. But they don't have a female-male polarity no matter what they call a Great Rite.

I've had Gardnerians tell me that only Gardnerians are Wiccans. I've had Alexandrians tell me that only Gardnerians and Alexandrians are Wiccans. I've had people tell me that Wiccans must practice in a coven, skyclad, with the Great Rite done male-female and rarely "in token," with ritual scourging at some point or else they're not "real Wiccans."

Sorry, but I don't buy it.

As I said previously, your specific Wiccan tradition can have whatever position it likes regarding what the Great Rite means and how it must be enacted. Other Wiccans might agree, but they have every right to also hold different opinions on the matter.

Because our community is one of great variety, and because we aren't an "authoritative" organization with a pope or central text which must be followed, we need to learn to respect that diversity in others or how can we expect them to respect ours? You don't have to like or agree with anyone else's philosophy, and have every right to express your opinion and provide evidence to support your stance. But to show disrespect for those who have different opinions, no matter how foolish you might personally think they are, doesn't help at all.

I respect your right to hold your personal beliefs and to follow your particular tradition within Wicca. I also respect other Wiccans who practice differently than you, and differently than I do. To me, that is a central tenet in a religious philosophy like Wicca - "An it harm none, do what you will."

If I wanted to be part of a judgemental community I could have joined any of the many "One True and Only Way" religions that are out there.

[Gwion]

I also have the right to discriminate between those ideas that I accept or reject. I don't believe that I have to preface everything I write with, IMHO, nor do I expect anyone to accept my beliefs as immutable cosmic law. There is a differance between tolerance for diversity and wholesale acceptance of every concept presented. I have the right to disagree. Bushmen in Africa have the right to believe that the world is flat. I can respect their right to believe that and still disagree. I can look at a rainbow with delight without thinking about gay pride. I can wear purple, the ancient color of royalty without doubting myself or caring what others think. It's really a moot point since I would never attend a circle where homosexuals are having sex, no matter what they are calling it, and the idea of a "solitary Great Rite" would seem like a sick mockery if it weren't so laughable.

[Ben Gruagach]

There is a problem when someone stands up and presents their particular opinion, or the stance of their particular tradition within Wicca, as being somehow authoritative for all Wiccans.

No one tradition within Wicca has exclusive ownership of the term Wicca or Witch. Gardnerians have every right to call themselves Wiccan, as do Alexandrians, Georgians, and the multitude of other traditions and solitaries who also call themselves Wiccans. And when it comes to the term Witch, we have to remember that Wiccans are not the only Witches either. There are many forms of witchcraft that have little to do with Wicca.

Gwion, you can discriminate however you like, agree or disagree with whatever ideas you like. However, you should not expect to be able to make statements that Wicca is X when you actually mean just your specific Wiccan tradition, and be able to not be challenged on it.

Respect is a two-way street. If you don't show respect to others, then how can you expect anyone to respect you?

Showing respect for other does not mean always agreeing with them. Debate is wonderful and should be encouraged. When people discuss ideas, presenting different points of view with evidence provided to support the different stances, we are all able to consider the sides and make up our own minds. Disrespecting others is not debating.

I've personally been an active Wiccan for two decades now. I've read enough, practiced enough, and have talked with enough people in our community to know that Wicca isn't just one tradition, that Gardnerians for instance aren't the only Wiccans out there. Many of the people who read and participate in these message boards on the internet are quite new to the whole Wiccan and modern Pagan scene, though, and don't really know what is what. It bothers me when people who present themselves as being "in the know" on a topic spout an opinion but present it as fact. Newbies see that and don't always have the skill or knowledge to realize it's just opinion, or just the way things are in one particular tradition.

As participants in these discussions, and as people who've got things to share, we MUST remember that we are speaking in front of others, including newbies. When someone speaks for their tradition they should be clear about that. When someone speaks from personal opinion they should be clear about that. When someone speaks about the larger Wiccan or Pagan community, they should be extra careful that they are being honest and representative of the diversity which is our community.

I promise I'll keep my posts to the topic of the Great Rite in this thread now!

[Gwion]

To me, even suggesting that the Great Rite can be performed alone or with two of the same sex is worse than disrespectful, it's profane; but everone is entitled to their opinion.

Newbies reading these posts also shouldn't be led to believe that marginal practices are accepted by the majority of Witches, or that Pagans are so nebulous in their beliefs that they accept absolutely any idea so as not to offend someone. Satanists may call themselves Pagan or Witches, but I will never accept that. If that is disrespectful of Satanists, I don't care. I also take strong exception with those who seem to think it especially important to indoctrinate newbies and the young into homosexual traditions.

[Ben Gruagach]

Originally posted by Gwion
Newbies reading these posts also shouldn't be led to believe that marginal practices are accepted by the majority of Witches, or that Pagans are so nebulous in their beliefs that they accept absolutely any idea so as not to offend someone. Satanists may call themselves Pagan or Witches, but I will never accept that. If that is disrespectful of Satanists, I don't care. I also take strong exception with those who seem to think it especially important to indoctrinate newbies and the young into homosexual traditions.
Newbies should realize too that there are homophobes in every community. The vast majority of Pagans who I've met in my twenty years in this community have been wonderfully accepting of gays and lesbians and are not judgemental of others who call themselves Pagans.

In Wicca one of the central philosophical statements is the Wiccan Rede: "An it harm none, do what you will."

Gwion's stance certainly has a place in Wicca, as do the stances that same-sex and even solitary Great Rites are acceptable. People can decide for themselves whether a specific stance is "marginal" or not, and if that means anything at all as a value statement.

The Great Rite is one ritual, admittedly one which is central for many Wiccan traditions, but it's not the sole reason for practicing Wicca. Traditions, covens, and individuals decide for themselves what the meaning is for them, how they wish to celebrate it, how and why to incorporate it into their worship. That autonomy is what allows Gwion to have his opinion, and for his tradition to have its stance. And it is that same autonomy which allows others to choose to embrace same-sex and even solitary Great Rite enactments.

[Gwion]

They should also realize that there are sexual predators in every community.

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1951

Plenty of them would like to convince young people how normal and widely accepted homosexuality is and how everyone really has a homosexual side that should be explored under their tender guidance.

Crying "homophobe" every time someone disagrees with you is pathetic.

[Ben Gruagach]

Originally posted by Gwion
They should also realize that there are sexual predators in every community.

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1951

Plenty of them would like to convince young people how normal and widely accepted homosexuality is and how everyone really has a homosexual side that should be explored under their tender guidance.
So - homosexuals are by definition predators and pedophiles? And heterosexuals never sexually molest too, right?

Oh yeah - and witches eat babies and sell their souls to the Christian devil.

By all means share your opinions, Gwion, but please, give people here SOME credit for having at least a little common sense!

[Hamelyn]

Ben, Gwion, I respect you both and honor your opinions. I've seen you guys around in other threads and you both have a way of making me think, if in your different ways. However, this thread was not started to turn into an Us Versus Them thread. Don't let it turn into that, please?

Gwion, you say that you consider it profane and an insult to suggest that the Great Rite could be undergone by two of the same sex. I tend to surround myself with more liberal worldviews, and as such, this is a relatively foreign viewpoint for me. I'm not saying you can't feel that way... but I started this topic to gather knowledge. If it's profane and an insult, tell me -why-. Actually give your reasons, please?

As far as you go, Ben, you were one of the first people to really give me some solidity on this topic and I've thanked you for that. i can understand the defensiveness, but just settle, my friend. *grin*

I guess the big thing I'm asking is that we stay relatively on-topic and don't try to generalize the morals of others. A sexual predator is a sexual predator if they're being predatory. If you find something to be Wrong, then say it, and say why. But don't just say it's wrong for everyone. That's one reason that paganism is such a diverse path these days. Alright, guys?

Waiting to hear from you now, Gwion. *Grin*

(Added to post after reading more) Also, disagreeing I'm fine with. I'm not alright with insults just because a person feels they don't have to care. You don't have to care, no. But be mature and don't use insults. If you're going to express your views here at least be respectful. It's the entire point of this forum in the first place.

[Phoenix Blue]

Because the body happens to be male or female, does that mean the spirit must match? I think not.

[Marchosias]

I hate to sound apathetic, but what two consenting adults do behind closed doors is their buisness and theirs alone. It is not for you, I, nor anyone else to be concerned with.
On the subject of energies, though, i must say that i do not see them as either masculine or feminine. We are souls with bodies, not bodies with souls. The only real concepts of masculine/feminine are instilled into our biological brains through hormones. To think otherwise would be to "give" the sexes their own little attributes...and that line of thinking seems to directly correlate that wonderful xtian programming we all know and love...

[Marchosias]

Originally posted by Gwion

Satanists may call themselves Pagan or Witches, but I will never accept that.
Whoa there buddy, Im not entirely sure WHERE you got that idea from, but one of the main things we Satinists are concerned with in the non-xtian community is asserting that we ARE NOT a pagan, wiccan etc. Now if this was something you have seen repeatedly, i would beg to see examples...otherwise, proper organazation and proven truthfulness of your points would be nice.

[Ben Gruagach]

Originally posted by Marchosias
Whoa there buddy, Im not entirely sure WHERE you got that idea from, but one of the main things we Satinists are concerned with in the non-xtian community is asserting that we ARE NOT a pagan, wiccan etc. Now if this was something you have seen repeatedly, i would beg to see examples...otherwise, proper organazation and proven truthfulness of your points would be nice.

Not making fun of you, Marchosias, but the typo "Satinist" is really amusing. It make me think of a religion where people REALLY get off on silky-smooth cloth!

There is precedence for the term "Satanic Witch." Anton Szandor Lavey wrote a book titled "The Satanic Witch," sort of a companion book to "The Satanic Bible." And back in the Burning Times the whole philosophy of witchcraft that was pushed by the Christians was that witches were servants of Satan, so to them they were Satanic Witches (whether the accussed were or not, or even witches or not.)

Wiccans are certainly free to use the term Witch for themselves (I'm a Wiccan and I say I'm very much a Witch) but there are plenty of Witches who are not Wiccans. Wiccans don't "own" the term Witch.

And that means that Satanists who want to say they are Witches can do so, as can Christian Witches, Jewish Witches, etc.

I think it is wrong to say "Satanic Wiccan" though, as it's like saying you're a Catholic Protestant - it's an oxymoron. Saying you're a Catholic Christian or Protestant Christian is like saying you're a Satanic Witch or a Wiccan Witch.

Does that make sense?

[Mithrea]

A Satanic Wiccan discussion can be found here: http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19836&highlight=Satanic+Wiccan

[SagaDraco]

As a "laissez-faire" type, what consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.....as a Pagan, I agree with those who said there is no room for homosexuality. Man and woman, woman and man. I have always and will always view homosexuality as an unnatural aberration. That's my opinion and if anyone has a problem with it, well, too bad really. I never back down and don't expect anyone else to either.

[Ben Gruagach]

Originally posted by SagaDraco
As a "laissez-faire" type, what consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.....as a Pagan, I agree with those who said there is no room for homosexuality. Man and woman, woman and man. I have always and will always view homosexuality as an unnatural aberration. That's my opinion and if anyone has a problem with it, well, too bad really. I never back down and don't expect anyone else to either.
There may be "no room for homosexuals" in your particular Pagan tradition, but there are plenty of Pagan traditions and philosophies which have plenty of room, and in some cases, are openly welcoming of gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered people.

And I think that diversity is one of the great strengths of the Pagan community.

[SagaDraco]

"There may be "no room for homosexuals" in your particular Pagan tradition, but there are plenty of Pagan traditions and philosophies which have plenty of room, and in some cases, are openly welcoming of gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered people.

And I think that diversity is one of the great strengths of the Pagan community."

Again, as a laissez-faireish person, what those Pagans choose to do is up to them. I won't piss in their Cheerios if they don't piss in mine.

[widukind]

I personally don't believe in 'male' and 'female' energies. I believe them to be based on social stereotypes. Gender and sex aren't defined by these energies, either. At least, IMO.
Energy is androgynous(sp?) and neutral.

[Raevyn]

I think you spelled it right.

I don't think energy is as much neutral as transcending gender - divine is god and goddess, both and one. I see gender as something very physical and earth-bound - we see things in male and female, and we view the God and Goddess sometimes we use our understanding of masculinity and femininity to interact with the divine. To me though, the divine is well beyond physical, and beyond our understanding, and gender is one way we try to make sense of it.

Since our understanding of the divine as masculine or feminine is our own, I feel we are free to use it as we wish. I don't feel the divine say "oh no, you have to have a God and Goddess or we won't work with you", simply because some people have achieved results and don't work that way.

I do believe how we interact with the divine is largely on us - if it makes sense to you to work with a man and woman as God and Goddess, then that is how it will work for you, and perhaps it will never work any other way. If, however, you consider the God and Goddess to manifest within us as masculine and feminine energies, and it makes sense to work with two women or two men or what have you, then that will work for you.

Some people believe Wicca must include a God and Goddess as it did in the beginning; that that and the interplay of masculine and feminine energies, fertility, etc. are a required part of Wicca, and if you don't have a man and woman in the rite it isn't Wiccan, simply because the God and Goddess as all that man and all that is woman are essential to what Wicca is. Personally, I can understand this.

Other people believe Wicca can be made so eclectic as to not include a God and Goddess as a physical man and woman. They can pick or choose and make Wicca what they will. I can understand *this* mentality as well, though at the same time I can understand how some might say "well you might call that Wicca, I wouldn't".

I think both ways are valid and understandable. I think it's important that both viewpoints were brought up so strongly, because that's how it plays in Wicca. One doesn't have to be right and the other wrong - Ben might say "yeah that's Wiccan" and Gwion would say "no that's not Wiccan, I find that insulting".

And, so? If I say "well what you did isn't the great rite, it didn't involve a man and woman!" does it change that it was an enlightening and valuable experience?

I've actually considered what Wicca is and what it's not (not just the great rite, but the whole of Wicca) and how the label's stretched and bent, for years now. At what point does Wicca stop being Wicca, or the great rite stop being the great rite? When does eclectic Wicca become so eclectic as to stop being Wicca at all?

I've learned this - you might call it Wicca, you might call it the great rite, and I might not. Or someone else might not. And in the end, the experience occured, and it was beneficial and enlightening, and it was what it was. Putting the right name on it doesn't make it valid or not. No one needs to justify their beliefs, no one needs to validate themself, and anyone who is secure in their beliefs will not spend a lot of time defending themself (this is where, btw, I think whywiccanssuck.com got it exactly right).

Point being, if you think it's the great rite and it's ok, good. If you don't, like Gwion, also good. I'm not on the fence on this, I like both sides.

And now I can see why homosexual spirituality is different from hetero, at least in terms of what is acceptable and politics etc. etc. etc.

[One Eyed]

Originally posted by Ben Gruagach
You'll find homophobes in pretty much any crowd (even in the gay and lesbian community - self-hating gays and lesbians.)


Just because you oppose homosexuality it does not mean you are 'homophobic' I know many people which do not accept that lifestyle and are definetly not afraid of gay people and are not gay - they just do not think it is natural and their culture is strongly against it.

[MistOfTheSea86]

I feel homosexuality is a completely natural occurence and judging by the research done by many scientists it is. It is found in many other species of mammals and as well as other cold blooded creatures such as snakes.

When it comes to spirituality, I think it matters not which sex you lie with on this plane. Your soul is trying to fulfill it's purpose whatever that may be and that is never wrong or deviant.

When it comes down to it, what people argue is the resistance to accept homosexuality because they hate it, rather than they don't personally agree.

[Aijou_no_Tenshi]

Homosexuals rock. ... I'm actually straight, myself. ... I have TONS of homosexual/bisexual friends. ... I love them all. They're just as good/normal as anyone else. There's nothing wrong with them. I'm proud to say that I support gay rights too. It's all about love, so what's there to hate?

[Nyxee]

Query:

If a homo man and a homo woman were to perform the Great Rite (say, symbolic), what would the energies be like?

Are gender energies created by sex or sexual persuasion?

If a homo man and a hetero woman were to perform it, what then? Or a hetero man/homo woman? Or a bi man/bi woman? Etc...

I personally don't think sexual persuasion has anything to do with the energy one can provide/work with/whatever. And I'm a bisexual woman, just for the record.

[MistOfTheSea86]

Originally posted by Aijou_no_Tenshi

Homosexuals rock. ... I'm actually straight, myself. ... I have TONS of homosexual/bisexual friends. ... I love them all. They're just as good/normal as anyone else. There's nothing wrong with them. I'm proud to say that I support gay rights too. It's all about love, so what's there to hate?

Yes they do don't they?:)

[Sequoia]

First off, I'd like to say it's kind of sad that folks have been slightly jumped on for saying that they thought homosexuality was wrong/unnatural. It makes me sad that they feel this way, because for all they know they might be missing out on a whole 'nother side of life, but hey- it's their belief. I didn't hear anyone say "PUMA, YOU'RE A SICK TWISTED DYKE!" (just as an example. Does that word need to be edited? :huh: *not sure*)

Personally, as someone who has a girlfriend, I'm not too worried about those who don't agree. That's fine. You don't have to. So long as you're not openly mocking/attacking me, it's your thing. Not my business. Don't agree with it, but I'm probably not going to change your mind anytime soon. So let's just live. :)

On the religious note- I'm not Wiccan. I don't really know what the Great Rite is, other than something sexual(?).

While I believe that there is balence out there in the universe. . . I actually really feel that what causes motion, fate, destiny, life, joy, pain, etc- are the things that aren't balenced. Because you have "too much" of one thing over here, "not enough" over there. . . but in the end, the universe is pretty level, isn't it? If *everything* had a perfect balence, there wouldn't be any motion. *smiles* I don't know. Saying that there is balence within everyone to me is like saying every apple is red. Even if there weren't Granny apples, or Fuji apples. . . *chuckles* what if I thought this one was crimson, and you thought it was more of a deep pink?

If guys want to honor the goddess in them, more power to 'em. Same for women and the god. Personally, I don't believe in the whole "One God, One Goddess; Male Divine/Female Divine" thing. So I suppose my perspective is a bit skewed. Perhaps this 'Great Rite' can only be done with a woman and a man. Or perhaps everyone'd feel better if it was a drag queen and a butch. I'm not Wiccan. I don't know. But it seems to me that people of any race, ethnicity, orientation, etc will find a way to worship that is meaningful to them. Whether it's "right" or not. . . well, you'll have to ask God/dess that.

[Phoenix Blue]

Originally posted by mato
From one memorable wiccan I heard the following, "Wicca is based on the worship of a God and Goddess, their Great Rite is the holy of holies for wicca and it's followers. the polarity of male and female is necessary for wiccan practice. Homosexuality has no place in wicca (and homosexuals should not practice)."
Incidentally, if I recall this was Gardner's view of homosexuality, almost word-for-word.

I don't agree with it, and I'm glad that Wicca has evolved away from it.

[Haruka2077]

I belonged to an on-line Dianic group which had many, many discussions of the issue of polarity... I wish I could remember them better and post them here because many wise things were said. *sigh*
Long story short, I believe that we each hold all possibilities within ourselves... But I have never participated in or witnessed a Great Rite, so I can't claim to be really familiar with the energies involved. In theory, I would assume it is just as easy for a same-gender couple to do it as a mixed.
*shrug*

[mol]

Originally posted by Puma Hime
Don't agree with it, but I'm probably not going to change your mind anytime soon. So let's just live. :)

Thats about where I have always been on the subject.

[She-Arna]

I can see both points of view here.

Wicca, as Gardner presented it, seems to require both a male and female in certain rites and the polarity of male and female was emphasised. That could suggest that it's very hard to be homosexual and Wiccan and probably not a good idea.

On the other hand, the Charge of the Goddess clearly states that "all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals." So obviosuly, that means homosexuality is not condemned, or should nto eb condemned by the Wiccan community.

To me it seems that in some rituals, a male and female are required, for instance the Great Rite. However, most of the time, I don't see that it makes any difference whether the Wiccan is gay or staright.

Blessings!
She-Arna

[Ben Gruagach]

I'm not really wanting to reopen this can of worms again (at least with the debate) by bumping this thread. However, I wanted to add a bit of information that could be useful to those who are researching homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgender issues in Paganism.

The latest issue of newWitch magazine (Summer 2003 - issue #4) has an article by Sheela Ardrian called "Beyond Pink & Blue: Gender Bending and Transgender Realities in Pagan Culture."

I've also discovered a book called "Cassell's Encyclopedia of Queer Myth, Symbol and Spirit: Covering Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Lore" by Randy P. Conner, David Hatfield Sparks, and Mariya Sparks. It looks pretty good and is not a slim volume.

There are likely other resources out there. I haven't read Sheela Ardrian's article yet, or looked through the book, but expect the bibliographies provided in them would point to a lot more material in print.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Ben, this is a fascinating discussion. Thanks for opening it back up.

I think that one thing that a lot of people (on this thread and otherwise) are missing is that the Great Rite is meant as a symbolic representation of the joining of the God and Goddess. It can be represented as the actual physical act of sex, or it can be represented as plunging an athame into a cauldron filled with water, or 100 other ways. Even if "that's not what Gardner says", modern Wicca has moved away from some of Gardner's instructions, and found its own way.

My coven is one that has grown out of the Minoan Brotherhood, an Eclectic Wiccan organization founded in the early 70s by a number of gay men in Brooklyn (the "Magickal Childe" folks, to be exact). The traditions embraced by our hive of covens is now entire omnisexual. When we represent the Great Rite in rituals, it is done with three couples -- male/female, male/male, and female/female -- and with a short speech and a kiss. No exchange of fluids or body parts necessary. Since we are in possession of an anima and an animus, we are all able to represent the God and/or the Goddess for the purpose of rites.

As someone said, there are predators in the Wiccan community. This is true. A very sweet young woman I met a festival in the fall was troubled because of a coven she was part of. The priest and priestess (a heterosexual married couple) had announced that in order to be raised to 3rd Degree, the women would all have to sleep with the priest, and the men would have to sleep with the priestess. I find this to be an abuse of power, and completely unacceptable. This is one of the reasons why I'm adamant that the Great Rite should only be considered a symbolic representation.

[Pesha]

First off, just let me say that I don't want to offend or start brewing up any hostile conversations with this. Please, try to take this as I mean it. That said, and with respect for the ideals and rules of this forum in mind, let us begin.

I've been speaking with a companion of mine, a dear friend and a sometimes-lover, about something. He is an admitted practicioner of Wicca (which I am not), and I believe that his boyfriend is, as well. There's a long tradition in male and female energies which I'm sure Wicca draws heavily upon... the Lord and Lady, Yang and Yin, The Natural World, and more. I've heard a couple of varying views on this, but I was curious to stir up and receive some opinions from the people in this forum: in regards to spirituality (Wiccan or otherwise), where do you think that homosexuality fits in? The Great Rite, masculine and femenine energies, Universal Stuff, and the like... thank you muchly for your time, all.

In Wicca you have the male and female energies and in all living things this is evident. The Great Rite is a marvellous ritual and can be and has been and is to this day practiced by Wiccans of different sexual orientation, literally and symbolically. Here is my feelings......... We are all children of the ONE, the Universe and there for entitled to all there is to have and know on this earth on this plain. It is not what your orientaion is that makes you a person, but what is in your heart. That is true witchcraft/Wicca. Open hearts and open minds. All are one in the eyes of They Who Care and Create. You are my brother and I am your sister.......so shall it ever be. Many blessigs to you.

BB

D'S...also known as...

[mol]

B A very sweet young woman I met a festival in the fall was troubled because of a coven she was part of. The priest and priestess (a heterosexual married couple) had announced that in order to be raised to 3rd Degree, the women would all have to sleep with the priest, and the men would have to sleep with the priestess. I find this to be an abuse of power, and completely unacceptable. This is one of the reasons why I'm adamant that the Great Rite should only be considered a symbolic representation.

Would this be a tell tale sign of Wicca needing to become a more organized religion so that such practices can be better regulated?

[Ben Gruagach]

A very sweet young woman I met a festival in the fall was troubled because of a coven she was part of. The priest and priestess (a heterosexual married couple) had announced that in order to be raised to 3rd Degree, the women would all have to sleep with the priest, and the men would have to sleep with the priestess. I find this to be an abuse of power, and completely unacceptable. This is one of the reasons why I'm adamant that the Great Rite should only be considered a symbolic representation.


Would this be a tell tale sign of Wicca needing to become a more organized religion so that such practices can be better regulated?

I don't know if Wicca needs to be more organized. This sort of problem would also be dealt with by more general awareness that there are Wiccan traditions that DON'T require actual sexual contact of any sort between coven members. Talking more openly about things doesn't necessarily mean more organization...

[Ben Trismegistus]

Would this be a tell tale sign of Wicca needing to become a more organized religion so that such practices can be better regulated?

I do believe that Wicca needs to become a more organized religion, and this is only one of the many reasons.


I don't know if Wicca needs to be more organized. This sort of problem would also be dealt with by more general awareness that there are Wiccan traditions that DON'T require actual sexual contact of any sort between coven members. Talking more openly about things doesn't necessarily mean more organization...

Well, if there were more organization, there would be a central location at which seekers could find definitive information on the various trads.

[Ben Gruagach]

Well, if there were more organization, there would be a central location at which seekers could find definitive information on the various trads.

Witchvox.com is turning out to be an excellent repository of information about Pagan traditions. And since the essays on the traditions are purportedly submitted by people within those trads (and are hopefully actually representative of their trads) it's about as authoritative as one could hope for.

The resources exist... we just need to do a better job in letting people know they are there!