Goth Murder; a hate carime?

[Cassie]

A 15-year-old boy has been found guilty of murder after he kicked a woman to death because she was a Goth.

Brendan Harris set upon Sophie Lancaster, 20, in a Lancashire park after he and four other youths assaulted her boyfriend Robert Maltby.

Ryan Herbert, 16, had already admitted murdering Miss Lancaster in Stubbylee Park, Bacup, last August.

Det Supt Mick Gradwell, of Lancashire Police, said it was one of the most violent murders he had seen... From here. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/7316601.stm)

Ade Varney, a Goth since the age of 17, says that the reality is that the abuse aimed at Goths is alarmingly regular.

Following Sophie Lancaster's killing in a Lancashire park, he is campaigning to have the definition of hate crime to include offences against people based on their appearance or subcultural interests.



Preston Crown Court heard they were attacked by teenagers purely because they were dressed as Goths.

Mr Varney said: "Among a bunch of young kids, who shouldn't even have been out at night, were some teenagers, who operated with an 'us and them' gang mentality.

"We get verbal assaults every day, and not just from young people. But now younger teenagers have the mentality of hardened criminals and I definitely sense this violent aspect getting worse.

"It's often exacerbated by misconceptions about what Goths are.

"Goth teenagers can tend to be bookish, quiet and thoughtful. As a result they can sometimes become distanced from the majority and become targeted.

"In my experience of over 20 years, as a general rule, you have to search hard to find a Goth who is violent in nature and even harder still to find one who has not been targeted in some way.

"These packs so often see a slightly built guy on his own, wearing make-up and to them, he is fair game, an easy target to bully. It is happening to girls now, more than ever. From here. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/7314306.stm)
Apart from this being further evidence that serious gang violence is getting out of control in the UK, what do you think; should violence against particular self chosen lifestyles be seen as hate crime in the same way that crimes motivated by race, religion and sexuality are?

[aranarose]

I don't like crimes being labeled hate crimes in the first place. Murder is horrendous no matter what the reason. They are all spurred on by hate in one way or another, and to distinguish one from another minimizes the pain of those whose family members were killed in a 'normal' murder.

[Cynyr]

what do you think; should violence against particular self chosen lifestyles be seen as hate crime in the same way that crimes motivated by race, religion and sexuality are?

It goes without saying, the answer is a resounding, "Yes". What else would such a crime be based on?

[Cynyr]

I don't like crimes being labeled hate crimes in the first place. Murder is horrendous no matter what the reason. They are all spurred on by hate in one way or another, and to distinguish one from another minimizes the pain of those whose family members were killed in a 'normal' murder.

Perhaps it's because "Hate Crime" will carry a much harsher sentence, than just a run of the mill murder.

[aranarose]

Perhaps it's because "Hate Crime" will carry a much harsher sentence, than just a run of the mill murder.

And again, don't all murderers deserve a harsh sentence? Kids are sentenced to life for drug crimes, but murderers can get out after five years. We don't need more laws, we need to enforce the ones we've got in a proper manner.

[Stormbeard]

This is a hate crime.

It shocked the country and I've seen incidents like this first hand. I've STOPPED incidents like this from happening personally.

[Cassie]

It is certainly a hate crime but I agree with aranarose that most, if not all, murders are hate crimes. I'm not sure if there is any reason to catagorise some murders differently.
I also agree that we need to enforce the laws and the punishments we have more properly. It angers me when I hear of murderers and rapists being sentenced to a handful of years and getting out in even less.

[Kaylara]

This is a hate crime.

It shocked the country and I've seen incidents like this first hand. I've STOPPED incidents like this from happening personally.

As have I. I've been at the brunt end of people fucking with me because I was a goth too.

In fact, yesterday, one of my neighbors who is a goth, told me that one of her upstairs neighbors was harassing her and being nasty because she dresses gothy.

Fuck that. These kids should absolutely be put away for life. I think it's definitely different from other murders or crimes because it's based entirely on a perceived difference, and I think that when you harm someone based purely on those perceived differences, you need to be treated to a much harsher penalty. I know it's not allowed, but this is one of those instances when I'd really like to give the local goth community about 5 minutes along with these little assholes. Sure, MOST goths are pretty non-violent. Until you screw with them. Personally, you mess with me, and I'll make you wish you were never freaking born.

And that the parents were joking about the murder and assault with the children is absolutely appalling. Those parents should be thrown in jail too. And sterilized. If they have any other children, they should be taken away and not allowed to see their parents until they're adults. IMO that they raised children like this and see nothing wrong with beating someone up or murdering them because they are dressed differently shows that they are incapable of properly raising their children and are possibly a danger to the greater public.

[Kaylara]

It is certainly a hate crime but I agree with aranarose that most, if not all, murders are hate crimes. I'm not sure if there is any reason to catagorise some murders differently.
I also agree that we need to enforce the laws and the punishments we have more properly. It angers me when I hear of murderers and rapists being sentenced to a handful of years and getting out in even less.

I think it's worse in the US than it is here though Cassie. The average time that a murderer spends in jail in the US is 5 years. A rapist, 3 years. A drug user, around 15 years. Kinda shows you where the priorities are. And usually there is nothing similar to what we have here in the Netherlands where even if you're due for release, if the courts think you're dangerous you get remanded to a psychiatric hospital until they decide that you're not a danger anymore. And that could very well be for the rest of your life.

[aluokaloo]

well if we wait another fifty years then all murder and torture crimes will be hate crimes, the pendulum swings both ways ya know. And yeah the U.S. prioirities suck! stupid idiots

[Cassie]

I think it's worse in the US than it is here though Cassie. The average time that a murderer spends in jail in the US is 5 years. A rapist, 3 years. A drug user, around 15 years. Kinda shows you where the priorities are.
Yep... That is so screwed up.

[Kaylara]

But you know, here in NL a racist will be treated much harsher for attacking someone of african descent than a non-racist who attacks someone of the same race. This is partially because racism is illegal here. (Shhh, don't tell Geert Wilders.) Perhaps they need to do something similar in the UK? I mean, if you go after a specific group of people and purposefully do them harm, you should be treated very harshly.

[Cassie]

(Shhh, don't tell Geert Wilders.) .
I hear he is in trouble for posting an inflamatory video on the internet...
Perhaps they need to do something similar in the UK? I mean, if you go after a specific group of people and purposefully do them harm, you should be treated very harshly
True, but I would say if you go after any person or group of people and purposefully do them harm, you should be treated very harshly.

[aranarose]

In the U.S., if you get busted 3 times for smoking pot, they can put you away for life. Just for smoking it. Three strikes you're out. But if you kill someone? You could be out in 5.

[Kaylara]

I hear he is in trouble for posting an inflamatory video on the internet... No, because he was about to release his racist bigoted video on the internet. Heh. His US hosting company shut down his site. But he's a subject for a whole other thread. :)

True, but I would say if you go after any person or group of people and purposefully do them harm, you should be treated very harshly. I agree. :)

Then again, I'm all for the death penalty for paedophiles and rapists. You can accidentally kill someone. You can't accidentally molest or rape someone. And there's an almost 100% recidivism rate for rapists and paedophiles which to me means that you're not going to be helped. We may as well put you out of our misery because we can never let you out of jail because you're a danger to society as a whole, and it's cruel to keep you in jail for the rest of your life. Especially since most of that will be in solitary confinement so that the other inmates don't kill you. The fact that we currently do let them out of jail at all again shows where our priorities lie.

[Stormbeard]

As have I. I've been at the brunt end of people fucking with me because I was a goth too.

In fact, yesterday, one of my neighbors who is a goth, told me that one of her upstairs neighbors was harassing her and being nasty because she dresses gothy.

Fuck that. These kids should absolutely be put away for life. I think it's definitely different from other murders or crimes because it's based entirely on a perceived difference, and I think that when you harm someone based purely on those perceived differences, you need to be treated to a much harsher penalty. I know it's not allowed, but this is one of those instances when I'd really like to give the local goth community about 5 minutes along with these little assholes. Sure, MOST goths are pretty non-violent. Until you screw with them. Personally, you mess with me, and I'll make you wish you were never freaking born.

And that the parents were joking about the murder and assault with the children is absolutely appalling. Those parents should be thrown in jail too. And sterilized. If they have any other children, they should be taken away and not allowed to see their parents until they're adults. IMO that they raised children like this and see nothing wrong with beating someone up or murdering them because they are dressed differently shows that they are incapable of properly raising their children and are possibly a danger to the greater public.
When listening to a police chief on the radio he was asked "What's the best way to keep my kids safe from harm?"

His answer was "Get them into alternative music. If they're at home listening to Radiohead or out in a club thrashing around to Megadeth, then he's not in the town centre having his head glassed in by a drunken hooligan looking for an easy victim"

[Kaylara]

In the U.S., if you get busted 3 times for smoking pot, they can put you away for life. Just for smoking it. Three strikes you're out. But if you kill someone? You could be out in 5.

Yeah, and I think that's entirely ridiculous. I also think that the US people should be standing up and speaking out about how completely stupid this policy and really the whole of the "war on drugs" is.

[Kaylara]

When listening to a police chief on the radio he was asked "What's the best way to keep my kids safe from harm?"

His answer was "Get them into alternative music. If they're at home listening to Radiohead or out in a club thrashing around to Megadeth, then he's not in the town centre having his head glassed in by a drunken hooligan looking for an easy victim"

I give serious kudos to that police chief. And yeah. those hooligans are freaking scary.

[aranarose]

Yeah, and I think that's entirely ridiculous. I also think that the US people should be standing up and speaking out about how completely stupid this policy and really the whole of the "war on drugs" is.


The war on drugs that sent drug use and drug trafficking through the roof.

My son had a "drug education" day at school several weeks ago. After hearing exactly what he learned, I've sent a letter to his school stating that I want to be informed of any future sessions, and that my son will NOT be attending them. "Drug education" teaches kids the names of all the drugs, how to identify them, how to know if someone is selling or manufacturing them, how they are manufactured, where they are bought and sold, etc., all under the guise of teaching them what not to do and where not to go.

[Kaylara]

Very nice. I remember being in school and them telling us to spy on our parents to see if they were doing drugs. And if they were doing drugs, we were supposed to call the cops on them. I was a bad kid, I told my dad what they said. He went up one side of them and down the other.

[Happydeadkitty]

In the U.S., if you get busted 3 times for smoking pot, they can put you away for life. Just for smoking it. Three strikes you're out. But if you kill someone? You could be out in 5.

I think you may be confused with the three strike rule, it only applies to repeat violent offenders. (and is it still in effect? Not sure)

Cannabis consumption, and possession laws vary from state to state. In some states, it's decriminalized, and in others,with a medical card, you have the right to medicate yourself as you see fit.

That said, all violent crimes are awful, and hateful. People who choose to victimize others deserve to pay for it. One way or another.

HDK