When are you confident?/When do you doubt?

[Windsmith]

The strongest beliefs are those which are tested. Show me a person who's never once doubted their faith, I'll see a person whose faith probably isn't all that deep. Still, most of us don't spend most of our time (or even much of our time) thinking about our religion; it's integrated seamlessly into the fabric of daily life, impacting and influencing us in a thousand ways we don't consciously register.

But there are moments when thoughts about our religion come to the forefront of our minds: amazing, unexpected moments when we feel most strongly that that what we believe is right (at least for us), and we don't need to apologize, justify, or explain our beliefs to anyone. And there are other moments: cruel, torturous moments when we think that everything we believe and practice must be dead wrong, and how could we be so foolish to think we'd figured anything out?

My most confident moments are when I find the perfect words to describe what Pagan Pantheism is, in clear language that doesn't require me to explain what's it's not, in relation to other Pagan traditions, or to Atheism, or to Christianity. Those are moments when I stop and think, Yes, that's it exactly. That's what I believe, and that's why it's great.

My doubting moments are when I'm talking to other Pagans who speak - not boastfully, but with quiet and complete certainty - about their experiences with magic and deity. Then I think, If these experiences are so real to them, how can they be not-real to me? These doubts lead to more insidious questioning, about whether my Pantheist beliefs are acceptable with a Pagan practice, or if I'm supposed to give up Paganism and just go sit in the corner with the other philosophers.

So, yes, given the nature of these things, it is possible for me to go from confident to doubting in the same conversation!

How about anyone else? When do you know that Pantheism is right? And when do you feel like it can't possibly be right? Maybe reminding ourselves of the bright moments will make the dark moments easier to bear.

[cheddarsox]

I'm not sure if this addresses what you are writing about, but it has come up a few times this week...so here it is.

I am in the process of moving, and it is physically, emotionally and mentally exhausting. I am pretty wrung out. When I told this to a friend (who is also very spiritual) he was distressed, that I, who he considers someone who knows the truth about things, would succumb to the rigors of life.

And I replied that I spirituality does me no good if it does not allow me to feel the realities of life and the human condition MORE, not less, than I otherwise would.

I am not looking for a spiritual drug, savior, way out. I want my spirituality to help me be more fully human, not less human, or super human, or a spirit trapped in a human body.

I don't believe I am here to transcend human experience, to somehow learn to not let it touch me, bother me or hurt me, to get to the point where a huge alteration in my life, overworking my body and dealing with more details and tasks than I can handle...doesn't effect me. That doesn't make sense to me.

When I hurt, I hurt. There is nothing wrong about that, nothing to be avoided. Indeed, if I believe what I claim to...it is part of the experience to be felt, embraced, appreciated, not wished away, ignored or swept under the rug.

I am here, as a human, to be human. If the plan were that I be more spirit than body...then I guess I would be, but I'm not, so I assume that is not the plan.

I don't deny that others have the experiences with deity that they tell me about. All I know is that I don't. There is no reason to give their personal experience more credence in my own life, than I give to my personal experience. If a deity finds it necessary to contact me and interact with me, here I am, till then, here I am, in a nontheistic faith.

Doubt is part of What Is, as well. Keeps us from getting too smug and stagnant, keeps us open to new situations and experiences, keeps us laughing at ourselves.

I think doubt/agnosticism is built into pantheism. I believe What IS, to the extent to which I am capable of observing and acknowledging it. That extent changes, new information becomes available. I am not attached to a certain set of beliefs, but rather to What Is, whatever that may be. So if it becomes clear to me that something I wasn't able to see or acknowledge before is part of What Is, I can take it in. It does not compromise my faith.
I don't have to not look to the right or left in fear that something might alter my faith...I expect my faith to be challenged, altered and matured daily. It is part of What Is.

When I get to the point where I just can't take anymore in, where nothing makes sense...pantheism to the rescue. There is nothing I need to do, but be, exactly where I am. If that place is an overwhelmed place, so be it. All pantheism requires (and this is no small thing) is to be, where I am. To be present. So, when I get overwhelmed, I just "be". Right there in that overwhelmed clueless spot, I allow myself to accept that I am no less connected to All That Is, than at any other time or situation.

That to me is the gift of pantheism, that knowing that the window dressing in our lives is not a judgement on my spiritual state of being, or my relationship with the Universe. I cannot be lost or disconnected. I may feel that way, and even that is Ok, but the underlying truth is that I am part of What Is.

So, yes, I am a wreck, but the forsythia blooms just as beautifully in my new front yard, and spring erupts around me just the same, and the air fills my lungs and the rain falls, and my being a wreck does not stop the world from turning, and that makes me feel so much better. The very fact that life goes on, no matter what my personal condition is, is very heartening to me. Gives me the strength to get up in the morning, because it doesn't all depend on me. And when I get my act in order, I'll be able to enjoy it all again on a deeper level, because it just keeps on keeping on.

cheddar

[Xentor]

I hear you, Windsmith. I question my path quite a bit. I tend to discuss it with my wife, who follows the same path, more or less.

We try to achieve consistency with as little dogma as possible. Ours is a mystery path, and each point of mystery can and should be questioned, especially where it's the mystery itself what defines our ethics. Every time something comes up that has an ethical impact, I will consult and question the teachings of our path. When needed, we clarify its stance. When needed, we will make sure to change it. Sometimes it's hard.

This behaviour in our mind is a vote of confidence, rather than a vote of doubt. We believe the tenets of our path should change over time, along with its followers. If it can't, the risk of orthodoxy increases, resulting in people following an antiquated, archaic path.

I have also questioned whether our path falls under the umbrella term of paganism. I found the path more than 2 decades before finding paganism. And yes, some of the things some people believe to be real, have no such effect on me. The other way around will hold true for some tenets of my path as well. This will continue to be the case, as we are all different, and don't all share the same history, the same events, the same society, the same education.

I can see why this can cause doubt. I choose to see it as diversity, which brings it back within the tenets of my path.

[Eleisawolf]

How funny that you should post this now...

I've lost both of my babies (Basha, as most of you know, and now Tika, my dearest dog companion, the strongest bond I've ever had with an animal) within one season--from Winter Solstice to Spring Equinox, I have experienced enough loss to make me scream in defiance. Ah, how doubt rises when we lose someone we care about deeply. When we lose more than one with that kind of love...

Well, let's just say I doubt right now. But it's not just Pantheism. It's everything. I doubt the reasoning based on logic behind what the universe really is. It may take logic to discover it, but there's no logic behind it. There's only endings.

Pantheism, ultimately, is based on a balance of logic and experience. My logic follows science, reality, what I know to be true based on the progression of human reason. My experience, however, is often perpendicular to logic. The workings of the universe as demonstrated to me by reality and as experienced by me personally are often at odds with each other. That's when I doubt.

I have experienced a calling from something, like what Cheddar describes as having not experienced, whether from my own mind or something outside of me. But I doubt my own experience because of this strange thing we use called logic. My logic, which tells me "outside myself" isn't possible, goes against that. But I have seen and heard and experienced things that science doesn't know and can't quantify. Those experiences, especially in reference to the ones I have loved and lost, cling to me. They hold tight.

I have received what I see as messages from those I have lost. I have felt the comfort of the arms of the One who Calls wrapped around me. Is it me clinging to metaphor because it's comforting? Perhaps. But sometimes these things feel so much more real than that.

More than that, these things make me human. And who am I to deny my origin? Why DO I have a part of my brain that responds to spiritual experiences? Why IS it comforting for me to have contact with those who are deceased, or with some presence that is supposedly an invention of my own mind but that also, in various permutations, is the experience of the vast majority of humankind throughout known history?

I can't answer these questions. That's when I doubt.

But the thing is... well, it's like Cheddar said. Doubt is part of what makes us believe. It's a cycle, and a process, and without the one we could never have the other. It may sound strange, but in my places of deepest doubt, that's when I'm most secure, because it means I'm still alive enough and human enough and aware enough to keep asking the questions.

This is a ramble, and I know it. I'm in the throes of grief and anger and loss, and I don't know how else to deal with it. I alternately rail at the heavens and sit in mute acceptance. It's part of the hard, painful, anguishing process of living--questioning and doubting and seeking are what make us the amazing species we are. And I intend to keep doing it. I don't pretend to know all the answers, and I'm really more happy to live with doubt. It keeps me seeking, and that means I'm alive and I love and I connect with What Is, whether what I see as What Is is actually What Is or not. It makes me as human as I can be. Which, like Cheddar, I see as the point of belief, and being, and living. To fully experience, even (or perhaps especially) regardless of logic sometimes, is what I'm here for. So in my doubt, I fulfill my faith.

I just live.

Peace

[RavenStars]

I'm sorry for your loss, Eleisawolf.

Since I am still in transition with my beliefs (or whatever I'm calling it), I can only say that I crave a place free of doubt, a place of comfort. But that's not life, is it? Intellectually, I say I just want to be divinely, serenely, utterly alive. But that's not life either! <throws hands in the air>

[TygerTyger]

It is because I doubted and questioned my given religion that I lost faith with Christianity, and the fact that I could not find any answers with any substance to them; but I still believed in God, just not the one that was presented to me.

I found Pantheism through reading Spinoza’s Ethics, in which I found a sense to my experiences of life and the world in general. When I was younger I often asked why God made me so that I suffer from a progressively debilitating, and frequently painful, disability, but I could never accept the vague mysterious ways answer conventional Christians came up with. Pantheism made me look at my disability in another way, it helped me to come to terms with it because now I no longer believe that God makes each of us individually like a Barbie Doll production line; being born is a more marvellous miracle than that!

I am very conscious of the fact that I don’t know everything, but then that doesn’t trouble me either. I have found that since embracing Pantheism I worry about life less, doubt my beliefs less and I am, generally, much happier than I used to be. Like every human being I have my moments of doubt and I still occasionally rage against my recalcitrant body, but I find so many affirmations of my faith all around me that my confidence returns pretty quickly.

[cheddarsox]

Loss and struggle don't cause me to question Life, or the Universe, but they often cause me to question MY life...like "do I really want to keep doing this?","Is this worth the effort/pain, to me?", that sort of thing.

I think those are reasonable questions to be asking, when the pain level, either emotional, spiritual or physical is reaching the tolerance level. It is part of the flight/fight response.

I do believe in grace. Not sure I can define it, but I believe in it. It is that thing beyond logic that keeps us keeping on...a mixture of hope, determination, mercy from others, and sheer grit, and awe of the Universe. And gratefulness...I think that is part of it to. Sometimes those things, those very human traits bundled together give us what it takes to say yes, when logic screams "NO". It's the promise we read in the rainbow, Allah's name found in a halved watermelon, the ghost of our deceased pet pattering down the hall or weighing down the blankets, the star that seems to wink just for us when we are crying out for a sign.

It is the connectedness, or maybe it is just our recognizing the connectedness, just when we need to most.

Maybe that is where faith comes into pantheism...believing in the connectedness when experience is causing us to doubt.

cheddar, with hugs for all