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Guardian_V
April 10th, 2008, 04:13 AM
Here is an interesting article

Thou Shalt Not Suffer
a Witch to Live...?

©2001 - 2006 by Fiona Broome

People often ask about the famous line in the Bible, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." (Exodus 22:18)
Here are the facts:
James I was notorious for being paranoid about witches, spells, and so on. This was, in part, due to volatile politics of the time. He had good reason to be nervous.
Witch... or Poisoner?

"His" Bible (the King James Bible) was translated to keep Jamie-boy happy, so they translated the word chasaph--which is Hebrew for poisoner-- to mean "witch" instead. The real Biblical passage was about the disturbing crime of poisoning in the Jewish community. When that line was originally written, poisonings were a growing concern. And, in that "eye for an eye" era, the logical sentence for a poisoner was death.
Reginald Scot dissents

Here's an early document, written around 1580 at the time of King James I, protesting the translation of chasaph as "witch." (And when good King James discovered what Reginald Scot had said in this book, James first wrote his own book, Daemonologie, a rebuttal to Scot's. Then James ordered his men to find every copy of Scot's book and burn them. It was too late. The Scot book was already in its third printing, widely distributed, and nine more chapters had been added.)

From The Discoverie of Witchcraft by Reginald Scot.
BOOKE VI
Chapter I - The exposition of this Hebrue word Chasaph, wherein is answered the objection conteined in Exodus 22. to wit: Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live, and of Simon Magus. Acts. 8.
(page 64) Chaspah, being a Hebrue word, is Latined Veneficium, and is in English, poisoning, or witchcraft; if you will so have it. The Hebrue sentence written in Exodus, 22. is by the 70. interpretors translated thus into Greeke, [note: I'll fill this in when I have a Greek font and more time], which in Latine is,
Veneficos (sive) veneficas non retinebitis in vita, in English, You shall not suffer anie poisoners, or (as it is translated) witches to live. The which sentence Josephus an Hebrue borne, and a man of great estimation, learning and fame, interpreteth in this wise; Let none of the children of Israel have any poison that is deadlie, or preparted to anie hurtfull use. If anie be apprehended with such stuffe, let him be put to dfeath, and suffer that which he meant to doo to them, for whom he prepared it. The Rabbins exposition agree heerewithall. Lex Cornelia differeth not from this sense, to wit, that he must suffer to death, which either maketh, selleth, or hath anie poison, to the intent to kill anie man.
This word is found in these places following: Exodus. 22, Deut. 18, 10. 2 Sam. 9, 22. Dan. 2,2. 2 Chr. 33, 6. Eay. 47, 9, 12. Malach, 3,5. Jerem. 27, 9, Mich. 5, 2. Nah. 3,4. bis. Howbeit, in all our English translations, Chaspah is translated, witchraft.
[This was copied from the Dover reprint edition of Reginald Scot's DISCOVERIE OF WITCHCRAFT. For a more complete copy of this text, see this page (http://www.esotericarchives.com/solomon/scot16.htm).]
The story doesn't conclude there.
Luther's Bible compounds the problem

The word "witch" appeared in Christian scriptures as maleficos, which is gender-neutral, until the mid-1500's. Then things took a nasty turn. In the "Luther Bible," the German line is "Die Zuberinnen soltu nicht leben lassen," which makes the word "witch" feminine. By 1566, in La Saincte Bible of Lyon, France, the word is even more clearly female, despite a footnote that the law applied equally to men. In other words, if people hadn't been so afraid of King James and mindful of his vivid imagination regarding Witches, that Bible passage might have been correctly translated. In that case, we might never have to deal with such preposterous prejudice in the Bible.
REFERENCES AND BIBLIOGRAPHY


Ellerbe, Helen. The Dark Side of Christian Historyhttp://www.assoc-amazon.com/e/ir?t=hollowhill&l=as2&o=1&a=0964487349. 1995, San Raphael, CA: Morningstar Books. Paperback. ISBN 0-9644873-4-9.
Pagels, Elaine. The Origin of Satanhttp://www.assoc-amazon.com/e/ir?t=hollowhill&l=as2&o=1&a=0679731180. 1995, New York: Vintage Books. Paperback. ISBN 0-679-73118-0.
"The Book of Q" in any text. My favorite is: "The Lost Gospel : The Book of Q and Christian Originshttp://www.assoc-amazon.com/e/ir?t=hollowhill&l=as2&o=1&a=0060653752," by Burton L. Mack.

The "Book of Q" is the text of Christ's messages, as accurately as we can determine. If you're interested in "just the facts," and if you want to get to bedrock on Christianity, a copy of the Book of Q will save you a lot of research! Spong, Rev. John Shelby. Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible with Jewish Eyes. 1996, San Francisco: HarperSanFrancisco. Or any book by him. (His essays are here (http://www.dioceseofnewark.org/vox.html).)
Some of these books aren't about Witchcraft, per se, but if you're going to start digging into fact and fiction in the King James Bible, these books (and others by the same authors) are illuminating.

LostSheep
April 10th, 2008, 04:30 AM
Here's an early document, written around 1580 at the time of King James I,
Then he'd have been James VI of Scotland, he wasn't James I of England until 1603.
Sorry, i can never resist pedantry.

Shawn Blackwolf
April 10th, 2008, 06:09 AM
I already had a very nice conversation on a thread here ,
onsite , with Raven Grimassi , regarding this...

Those who do not know , can write articles such as this...

Let us go to Godwin's Qabalistic Encyclopedia...

Ah , yes...

Kaph - Shin - Peh = 400 = Kashaph = Witch...

I shall trust the Hebrew , over Latin , Greek , or any so
called knowledgable translator , any day...

Witch was what was originally meant...

Which was the correct word...

Oh , and...

Nun - Shin - Yod - Mem = Nashim = Women , Wives = 400

Which is where the association , between Witch , and Women , came from...

In this instance...

RivaWitch
April 10th, 2008, 06:31 AM
Isn't eveyone else's history written by their enemy anyway?


Riva

Iris
April 11th, 2008, 09:31 PM
I already had a very nice conversation on a thread here ,
onsite , with Raven Grimassi , regarding this...

Those who do not know , can write articles such as this...

Let us go to Godwin's Qabalistic Encyclopedia...

Ah , yes...

Kaph - Shin - Peh = 400 = Kashaph = Witch...

I shall trust the Hebrew , over Latin , Greek , or any so
called knowledgable translator , any day...

Witch was what was originally meant...

Which was the correct word...

Oh , and...

Nun - Shin - Yod - Mem = Nashim = Women , Wives = 400

Which is where the association , between Witch , and Women , came from...

In this instance...

Shawn...forgive my ignorance - could you clarify this? As someone who knows nothing of Qabbalah (including how to spell it!)

zionwood
April 11th, 2008, 10:02 PM
Okay, I've heard of this "poisoner" thing before, while studying Christian Witchcraft. As far as I can tell, it seems to me that the Hebrew word translated "witch" in that passage is not quite the same in definition as how a modern-day self-identifying witch would define "witch." (Since "poisoner" implies harm and many witches have magical ethics against this...though perhaps not all?)

btw, I'm not big into numerology.

Shawn Blackwolf
April 11th, 2008, 10:27 PM
Sorry it took a little while there , Iris...

I had to search through 500+ subscribed threads , because
I could not remember which one it was...:lol:..._happydanc...:falloffch

So...see if this helps...I believe my post , page previous ,
is where you may want to start...the interaction of Raven ,
myself , and Simply Puzzled , explains better , I believe ,
than I could alone...let me know...

http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=60616


Edit : My questions begin post # 366

Edit # 2 : Each letter , in Qabalah , has a number value...therefore
a word has a number value...if words have the same value , or , a
plus one , minus one , value ( IE : number of word 400 , plus one
would be 401 , minus one would be 399...)...Then there is some
relation...similar , opposite , or some obtuse relation...but there
is a relation...hope that helps , also...

Pneumatikos
August 1st, 2008, 04:43 AM
I seem to remember that the word "Witch" did not appear in text until the Roman Empire invaded the Celtic regions. If anyone can verify that let me know. Also, during the first millenium AD, The Papacy was the central government in Rome for many centuries. We know how the church handled pagans during this time.

By the way... The book of Galatians was written to Galatia, a community of transplanted
Celts (Gaul)

level
October 23rd, 2008, 03:32 PM
IMO, the matter has been explained well when distinguishing between a "witch" and a "magician". All through the OT, we see examples of "magic"... even by the prophets. As well, in the NT considering the Messiah did not always simply speak things into manifestation, some might argue that his miracles were "magic" as well though not "witch craft".

Personally, I think that the different between the two is will and intent. Magic and witchcraft can do the same things, but "witchcraft" ... sorcery as described by the Scriptures seems to be something that totally skirts a Higher Power, or tries to. Many who practice folk magic will even maintain that they don't practice "witchcraft". Just from what I've read and heard, there seems to be some distinction between the two from the standpoint of many Believers.

What's the difference between what Moses did and what the Pharaoh's magician did? (Never mind word definitions for a moment.)

Another point... the difference between a prophet and a "fortune teller" or "diviner" according to Scripture. All through the Bible there are those who saw things in dreams and visions, and on and on and on... yet there is a distinction made, a special mention for "diviners".

The same acts take place on the side of good as well as on the side of evil. The difference seems to be purpose, authority, and so forth, and not the acts themselves.

zionwood
October 27th, 2008, 02:19 PM
I
The same acts take place on the side of good as well as on the side of evil. The difference seems to be purpose, authority, and so forth, and not the acts themselves.
Yes, i think i agree.

Cassandra2
March 8th, 2009, 10:42 AM
It's interesting. There are "magical" rituals all through the old testament. All the ritual of the temple was magic. The burning of incense, day and night, the cleansing of the space with the ashes of a red heifer. Witchcraft has to mean something different. There are proscriptions against sorcery, enchanters, those who divine etc.

Deut 18
9When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.

10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. 11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

Then the Hebrews turn around and use the Umin and Thumin for divination!
Daniel learned all the wisdom of the Chaldeans. He is a respected prophet, astrologer etc. He would not eat the king's meat but he would learn his wisdom.

Does anybody have any insight on these particular terms? I know necromancy is the enslavement of a soul.