Lapis: is it water or spirit?

[LadyCelt]

To me, it seems lapis would be spirit for its association; especially due to the ancient association with Ishtar. However, a couple of references I've researched says it is water. Any input?

[NefertSatSekhmet]

My opinion is spirit. In Kemetic correspondences it is associated with Isis or Nut.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

There is a secret our Tradition passed down , including
to the land of Khem...

The blue , and silver stone , was known , and used , as
a key to the "Well Of Star"...the gate to the upperworld...

This key , was later hidden in the "Star" card , of the Tarot...

In our ancient tree , the upperworld is accessed , by looking
down , into a reflective pool of the starfields...an as above , so
below , paradigm...

So...your answer...The Upperworld , and Astral Dimension ,
through the vehicle of Water...

[lightdragon]

usualy Lapis is aligned with water. Although the way SB said it , was the first I heard of it.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I have always noted your respect in your way of
answering posts , Lightdragon , even when what
is said , is something you were not aware of...

I wish to be clear about this , though...so , please
bear with me , as I attempt to elucidate further...

The ancient World Tree , as our Tradition knew ,
and knows it , had eleven dimensions...not the
Norse nine , nor Obri / Hebrew ten...

The axis was seven vertical...four elemental surrounding
the center vertical...the Well of Stars , however , was not
water , per the element itself...but alchemical water...

There were two main gates into the Tree...Cave , and Well...

Cave , was on the vertical axis , directly below center...

Well , on the vertical axis , directly above center...

So , for us , it was not the usual elemental water...

The stone was associated , with the fusion of elements ,
raised up to the next level...leading to upperworlds...

As Iron , especially iron pyrite , as we call it now...

Fools Gold...was the stone associated with the density
level , leading down...the Cave...we also called it the
Faerie Gold...

The value of our Tree , by the symbols composing it ,
is 1495...by gematria , or number - letter linkage :

1495 = Transmission Stones : Faerie Gold And BlueStar

BlueStar being our name for what is now known as Lapis...

Hope that opens some new doors for thought... :)

[Wolfsong]

This stone falls under both groupings depending on which tradition you follow and also what your personal beliefs are.

Historically many mid-eastern cultures viewed this stone as a link to the gods including the Egyptians. At some point after this when this stone arrived in Europe many referred to its color as "ultramarine" which some believe translates as "from beyond the sea". Within some cultures this still holds true with the spiritual connection as these cultures regarded areas beyond the sea as the homes of the ancestors hence we still have the spitirual connection. As time passed the link to the sea continued but some forgot the aspect which connected it to the realms of our ancestors.... the connection with the gods has remained with us throughout history. When the modern pagan paths began most kept the connection to the sea and those who chose to work with Egyptian and other eastern dieties worked with this stone for its connection to the gods.

What this really boils down to is that most modern metaphyical workers connect this stone with the sea/water. Reconstructionists tend to place it in the realm of Spirit due to it's ancient connection to lands of the dead and our ancestors as well as its connection to the gods. People who follw the paths of eastern dieties tend as well to associate it with the spirit realm due to its connection with gods but they also tend to ally it to the sea as a secondary association.

Both are right depending on ones point of view and path...

[Sequoia]

It would seem to me to be both spirit and water... and why can't the two be combined, I ask you? :)

[Wolfsong]

It would seem to me to be both spirit and water... and why can't the two be combined, I ask you? :)

they very well can be :)

[Wolfsong]

Which feels right to you?


for me?

I associate it with spirit... and the third eye... but for completely different reasons...

[Shawn Blackwolf]

"Both Spirit and Water"

And that , to my Tradition , is the idea of Alchemical Water...

It comes close to a mercurial state of energy...in some Traditions
everything emanates from fire...or it is considered the primal...

We work with all elements , as well , Spiritual Fire...higher state

But Water , is the Interface , and all other elements are enfolded
within it...

Now , as per your post , Wolfsong...interestingly , in our Tree ,
the bottom two realms , below the Cave , are Underworld , then
Realm of the Ancestors...the pair of symbols for the Underworld
have a value , possible , of 610..which equals Sea , in gematria...

Beyond the Sea , then , for us , was either a descent down the Tree
into the Realm of Ancestors...or an ascent , toward the Upperworlds

Just thought you might find that interesting , per your post...

Nice , by the way...

And good point , Sequoia...

[Wolfsong]

"Both Spirit and Water"

And that , to my Tradition , is the idea of Alchemical Water...

It comes close to a mercurial state of energy...in some Traditions
everything emanates from fire...or it is considered the primal...

We work with all elements , as well , Spiritual Fire...higher state

But Water , is the Interface , and all other elements are enfolded
within it...

Now , as per your post , Wolfsong...interestingly , in our Tree ,
the bottom two realms , below the Cave , are Underworld , then
Realm of the Ancestors...the pair of symbols for the Underworld
have a value , possible , of 610..which equals Sea , in gematria...

Beyond the Sea , then , for us , was either a descent down the Tree
into the Realm of Ancestors...or an ascent , toward the Upperworlds

Just thought you might find that interesting , per your post...

Nice , by the way...

And good point , Sequoia...


I had the chance about 17 years ago to study under an Elder of your path and we still remain friends to this day exchanging ideas and stories. I hold the highest respect for your tradition and understand it quite well. It's great to see your input here in these regards as it adds a vital and relavent viewpoint which not many are familiar with. Some of the techniques used within your path to channel the old ways are still vital in my work today.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I had the chance about 17 years ago to study under an Elder of your path and we still remain friends to this day exchanging ideas and stories. I hold the highest respect for your tradition and understand it quite well. It's great to see your input here in these regards as it adds a vital and relavent viewpoint which not many are familiar with. Some of the techniques used within your path to channel the old ways are still vital in my work today.

You were most blessed then , my friend...but that only shows your preparation , to make yourself ready for the teachings you recieved ;

Thus...I may say the honoring is mutual...wind at your back , may
the wings of spirit carry you far...and may you remember , as was
taught to me , as I am sure you...we walk on the stones , others
laid before us...:bigblue:

[Willow Rosette]

I have always associated Lapis with Innana. Here (http://tracelesswarrior.blogspot.com/2005/07/descent-of-innana.html) is one site that mentions it. It was a quicky search so if the site sucks I can find a better one. It is just hard to search and play Canasta LOL.

"On her head she wears the shugurra, the Great crown.
Across her forehead her dark locks of hair are carefully arranged.
On her ears she wears the rings of small lapis beads.
At her breast she wears the double strand of beads.
Her body is wrapped with the royal robe.
Her eyes are dabbed with the ointment called, "let him come, let him come."
Around her chest she wears the breastplate called "come, man, come."
On her wrist she wears the gold ring.
In her hand she carries the lapis measuring rod and line."

[LadyCelt]

Thanks for the help. I tend to think of it as spirit due to Isis and Ishtar. But, I can see how it can be both, its just confusing.

[RubyRose]

My opinion is Water, because of the colours of the stone mostly.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

I feel that lapis lazuli is the stone of Isis and, to a lesser extent, Nut.
Isis is the Queen of Heaven and as such, lapis with its deep blue speckled with pyrite and clouded with calcite is most appropriate. This would also give a connection to Spirit. However, Isis is also a goddess of the sea and seafaring - this is, admittedly, a more Roman thing - not to mention the Nile river which floods annually with Her tears. So there's your water.
Nut's body is the vault of heaven and there's a connection there, too.
If I'm laying stones in an elemental pattern, lapis will usually represent Water because it's the bluest thing I have in my collection.

[lightdragon]

this thread should have had a poll.

[LacunaCobra]

I had the chance about 17 years ago to study under an Elder of your path and we still remain friends to this day exchanging ideas and stories. I hold the highest respect for your tradition and understand it quite well. It's great to see your input here in these regards as it adds a vital and relavent viewpoint which not many are familiar with. Some of the techniques used within your path to channel the old ways are still vital in my work today.

I just love his posts! They're like poetry!