Grrrrr, 'Celtic'

[skilly-nilly]

I hope you don't mind, Crysiira, because I'd like to answer your question but to answer it on the thread you asked it on would be totally off topic.



On a side note, Skilly-Nilly, I'm not sure if I understand this statement of yours: "a page that calls The Mabinogion "a collection of Celtic myth and lore"(which is a fail with me since it's Welsh)." Please do correct me if I'm wrong in my interpretations, but I thought the word Celtic was one of those encompassing terms, that includes the cultures of Irish, Welsh, Scottish, and even some others.

'Celt' (unless you're using a Greek word for a specific mainland tribe in antiquity) is a modern term made up by linguists for a related group of languages (Scots and Irish Gaelic, Breton, Cornish, Manx, and Welsh). The cultures that those people had in ancient times and today are somewhat related but are not the same. So if I read (as here) a site that calls The Mabinogion 'Celtic' that (imo) site has an instant fail--The Mabinogion is Welsh.
Same with 'the Celtic God/dess of____'; the Gods and Goddesses of the different Celtic cultures are the Gods and Goddesses of Their specific cultures. And They do not generalize in the way that the Greek and Roman Gods/desses seem to. For example Bridget is the Irish Goddess of Imbas, the forge, and midwifery but She also has a whole history, personality. and function separate from those three things and is accessible to anyone.
So I completely believe that it is wrong and ill-informed to say, 'Bridget is the Celtic Triple Goddess' and shows me a poor understanding of the culture She comes from.
One could say, 'The Celtic cultures placed a great value on triplicate things, one example of which is the Irish Goddess Bridget, Who is 3 sisters with different functions.'

As far as I can see (looking from the outside) it's the same thing as 'Native American' or 'Amerindian'. I was at a Psychic Expo a little while ago, and I walked up to a table to ask them about their tent (based on a screen-tent frame made of blue cloth with stars) and they explained that they "entered your dreams through drumming" and that they had a wise mentor who taught them "Native ways".
"What culture?" I asked.
"Ummmmmmmmmmmmm, native." they answered.
"Fail"I thought to myself.

A little while later, I was talking to a completely unconnected person and she mentioned that she "studied under a Medicine Man".
"What culture?" I asked.
She answered, "Word in another language" and then realizing I hadn't understood, "Mohawk".
"Total pass"I thought to myself and went on discussing.

Wikipedia puts it nicely:
"Celts is a modern term used to describe any of the European peoples who spoke, or speak, a Celtic language. The term is also used in a wider sense to describe the modern descendants of those peoples, notably those who participate in a Celtic culture. Celts were a diverse group of independent, indigenous tribal societies. While similarities in language, artifacts, religion and social structures are known, each culture had its own language and traditions"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celt

It matters a lot to me because I am a kind of Irish ReConstructionist and I am very aware of the differences in culture between the Celtic Nations.

[Gwyddyon]

Absolutely correct, skilly-nilly. This is one of the BIGGEST pet peeves of mine in regards to "Celtic" people in general (by which I mean modern Irish and Scottish people I know), and many pagans in specific. "Celts" are a Victorian concept with a very brief introduction in passing Greek references.

Anyone who thinks they're studying "Ancient Celts" should really read Simon James, at the very least. His work is a good introduction to the myth of the Ancient Celts.

[Caitlin.ann]

Thanks for posting, Skilly Nilly. Your post has been most insightful and gotten me interested in Celtic studies again. :)

[teishabee]

But the whole celtic this and that is very neo pagan and sadly as Ive come across it ,means misinformed.

[Crysiira]

I don't mind at all that you started a new thread. Actually, this is really helpful.

I definitely recognize the fact that the cultures and the pantheons are very different from each other. Personally, as one very interested in the Irish pantheon, I've always used the term Irish Celtic to differentiate from other Celtic gods and goddesses. I'm definitely not one to call Brigid or any others anything but Irish. I think my interpretation of the usage of "Celtic" was to describe the Irish, Welsh, Scottish, and various other tribes of a certain time period. I don't think I realized it was the language that tied them together more than anything else.

When I pick up a book of Celtic myths and folklore, which I do often from various sources, I find tales and tidbits mainly from the three places mentioned. I suppose because of this I assumed the cultures were tied together because of cultural similarities.

Thanks for the response! This is very interesting and I think I'm a little clearer than before, which is always a good thing. :hahugh:

[darkwhispersdale]

I've only ever used the term in relation to the languages but it is suprising how many people call you a Celt when you say you're welsh.

[Agaliha]

In the past I thought Celtic was an accurate term to describe a deity and their pantheon. I've since realized that it's better to be specific-- Welsh, Irish, etc.

To me Celtic is a very broad term that could encompass Welsh, Gaulish, Irish, etc. I know it's not a pantheon in its own, but many that are put together for various reasons-- land, time period, language, etc.

Though, I will say, when I tagged the Deity of the Week threads I put "Celtic Pantheon" there along with "Irish Pantheon" or "Welsh Pantheon" (or "Gaulish Pantheon"). I added the Celtic Pantheon because many people might look for that for information as it's often how many deities are described (though incorrectly).

[Nitefalle]

I love it when you diatribe, Skilly Nilly :fpraise:

[Philosophia]

Thank you for this, Skilly-Nilly. As far as I can remember, I've never really used Celtic to describe many native cultures. I've also believed that it was used too broadly over many cultures that, while similar, weren't the same. So thank you for solidifying that for me. :hugz:

[TuathaSidhe]

I'll be honest, I use the term celtic alot...I probably shouldnt, but I dont talk to anyone else of, erm, any kind of pagan background, so most people I talk to, if I do mention anything they look at me like im crazy and getting into to much detail just ends up frustrating me more than anything, lol.

It would probably be different if I were actually talking to who was on, or at least knew about the path I was on.

You have reminded me to not make it a habit, which is something ive been doing of late and not giving it a second thought. Bad on my part, that and I guess im still very very new in my path....(being bymyself doesnt help any, lol)

[RubyRose]

I understand, but what if you wanted to speak collectively of Irish, Scottish and Welsh deities or Culture? Normally I would say Celtic Culture of Celtic Deities, but I'm getting the feeling that this isn't correct.

Thoughts?

[Zephyrstorm]

I'd take a page from some of the scholars on the Nemeton discussion list and say something like Pan-Celtic or the Celtic Nations or the Celtic Peoples.
*shrug*

[Seren_]

I understand, but what if you wanted to speak collectively of Irish, Scottish and Welsh deities or Culture? Normally I would say Celtic Culture of Celtic Deities, but I'm getting the feeling that this isn't correct.

Thoughts?

It's a useful umbrella term to use when you want to talk about a group of cultures as a whole, in general terms, but it's probably more correct to refer to 'Celtic cultures' than 'Celtic culture'. The history, culture, language, gods and traditions of Scotland, Wales and Ireland are very different so to lump them together as one culture doesn't account for the differences.

Same goes for the deities...Lugus, Lugh and Llew might all share similar names and for some it's normal to lump them together as a 'pan-Celtic' deity, but this doesn't account for how Lugh was perceived in Ireland, as opposed to Llew in Wales, say. Lugh has his own myths, as does Llew, and conflating the two, along with Lugus doesn't really make much sense to me - spiritually and personally, or in terms of studying the cultures in a more objective manner. It's a matter of perspective, I suppose.

There are similarities, and Ireland and Scotland share quite a few compared with Wales, say, but overall there are more differences...in modern terms, the idea of 'Celtic nations' has only been around since the sixteenth century or so, based on the recognition that the languages shared a common ancestor. The idea didn't really take off until the eighteenth or nineteenth century, but up 'til then, the Welsh were quite happy being Welsh, the Scots were happy being Scots and so on, and then suddenly everyone was calling them 'Celts' and viewing them as 'noble savages' who had a deep connection with Britain's historical roots and all that nonsense.

From that time up until recently there was the habit of lumping everything together, and I think this is where the common misconception comes from. Now we know a lot more about each of the different cultures there's no need for so much 'lumping', and it's more common (and correct, IMHO) to emphasise the differences. That's yet to gain a widespread grip on people's perceptions of 'Celtic' cultures, but it's gaining momentum from what I can see, especially in certain parts of the pagan community.

[Gwyddyon]

What Seren said. Although I'll go one step further and point out that until somewhere in the early Middle Ages it is extremely unlikely that a man in Aberdeen thought of himself as belonging to the same cultural group as a man from Glasgow, nor that a woman living near Cardiff would have considered herself as being of the same culture as a woman from Holyhead. Entities like the Welsh, the Scottish, and the Irish are relatively recent, and CERTAINLY not present in the Iron Age the way people talk about them being.

Archaeologically speaking, for instance, very little material culture is similar even within regions. La Tene artwork aside (and these pieces are hardly everyday goods), everything from pottery to the kind of house you live in are likely to be as radically different as you move from northern to southern Scotland as they are between Norway and Rome. True, there are areas with broadly similar architecture, but that tends to be mostly southeastern England.

[skilly-nilly]

I understand, but what if you wanted to speak collectively of Irish, Scottish and Welsh deities or Culture? Normally I would say Celtic Culture of Celtic Deities, but I'm getting the feeling that this isn't correct.

Thoughts?



So I completely believe that it is wrong and ill-informed to say, 'Bridget is the Celtic Triple Goddess' and shows me a poor understanding of the culture She comes from.
One could say, 'The Celtic cultures placed a great value on triplicate things, one example of which is the Irish Goddess Bridget, Who is 3 sisters with different functions.'

It matters a lot to me because I am a kind of Irish ReConstructionist and I am very aware of the differences in culture between the Celtic Nations.


I would use the term if I am clearly generalizing "The Celtic cultures" or speaking about all of the connected cultures together "the Celtic Nations" but, as you can see, I would use that term as a plural rather than a singular one.

Anytime I was talking about a specific instance, I would cite the actual culture it came from. So if you're going to reference The Mabinogion, you would have to call it Welsh; if you called it 'Celtic' you would be inexact. You could refer to 'the Celtic Hero Tales' but imo it would be stretching it.

I would never use the term "Celtic Deities" because (imo) They don't translate from culture to culture without culture-reflecting change. I would say 'the Pantheons of the Celtic Nations' but that's jmo, ymmv.

I always try to say exactly what I mean and not generalize where it's not warranted, but I'm a little weird that way.

[blackroseivy]

However, if you look purely at genetic pools, there is a strong connection between those of ALL peoples of Europe, regardless of "ethnic" type. There was a breakdown on the web wherein they graphed ("pie" being the wrong word, as they did it spherically) the blendings of all the genetic pools of the world; where they began & ended was quite hard to place, at times, as with the peoples of Europe.

I seek similarities rather than differences, personally. I think that we are all related more closely than we are seperate; that's just how I see things. I know that everyone will not agree, necessarily, with the way I do so.

There is a strong component in Ireland of even pre-Celtic blood - literally, they trace it by blood-type (don't ask me, I read it but it was a kind of complex scientific thingie & I'm not sure I grasp it entirely, but I thought it was interesting).

[skilly-nilly]

However, if you look purely at genetic pools, there is a strong connection between those of ALL peoples of Europe, regardless of "ethnic" type......There is a strong component in Ireland of even pre-Celtic blood - literally, they trace it by blood-type (don't ask me, I read it but it was a kind of complex scientific thingie & I'm not sure I grasp it entirely, but I thought it was interesting).

Genetically we're all very closely related, and we're all closely related to chimpanzees, too. I agree that genetics does unite us into humankind, but cultural differences are only very faintly connected to genetics.

Cultural differences make us all very different. So I believe that it's important to understand the cultures in which the Deities we are communicating with were first communicated with. That is, I believe that the culture that first defined/perceived/spoke to a God/dess influences the continuing human perception of that Deity. This is apparent when one looks at a Pan-Celtic God like the Irish Lugh who represents in other Celtic cultures but is different in them.

[Senbecc]

'Celt' (unless you're using a Greek word for a specific mainland tribe in antiquity) is a modern term made up by linguists for a related group of languages

Wayyyelll. Someone studying the ancient Celts forgot to cite the classical beginnings of the term. The term "Celt" from the get go is a term to describe the linguistic similarities of various Celtic peoples. Now I am well aware that *some* modern scholars make the claim that the term Celt came from the Celts themselves, but there isn't a shred of evidence to support that conclusion, just as we can't support claims made other wise.

You simply can't state things like this as fact, especially given the meanings of the word in both Greek and Roman language....

Like you - I would LOVE to think that the term came from the ancient Celts, but we simply have no possible way of knowing that....So it is more or less modern...So what?

[Hunger]

The same complaint applies to 'gallic' religions too, as while there were some divinities that appeared pandemically, most locals had a wide variance like Franks and their predecessors, the Angles, Saxons, and their proginetor tribes.

[Seren_]

I believe Caesar said in his Bello Gallica, "We call them Gallae, they call themselves Celtae."

That's the only instance I've ever come across, however.

The term comes from Hecataeus in its earliest form; Hecataeus' work is no longer extant, though, and is only known from the works of Herodotus as 'Keltoi'. From there, it's presumed that those who spoke Latin got/rendered it as 'Celtae'. Gallae/Galati was widely considered to be synonomous with Keltoi/Celtae in Classical sources, and Edward Lluyd, who coined the modern English term 'Celt' seems to draw from this common heritage. As it were.

[Senbecc]

I believe Caesar said in his Bello Gallica, "We call them Gallae, they call themselves Celtae."

That's the only instance I've ever come across, however.

YES! Tomas! I know you!

Actually, all we know is that several Roman scholars called them Celtae, which could have just as easily came from the Greek Keltoi. As I said however, there simply is no way...What so ever to prove that the term is Celtic or Classical. It is just one of those things that we can never know.

[Senbecc]

Yes, agreed, but was just sayin'... :P

Fancy seeing you here. :)

LoL - I didn't know I had friends here...I might be more careful now. ;)

In the end i think - the ancient meaning, or origin means little in today's world. Hell I'd knock someone down if I thought it would give me the answer to this question, but...

IMO - It's just one of those things, I can't (with any proof) say the word "Celt" is Classical and the other side of the argument can't say it's Celtic... But tween you n me, I'd be more inclined to see it as Celtic, if one of the older cultures had used the term.

[Senbecc]

Oh! LoL - I said "older" cultures, I meant younger. LOL oops. :P

[Seren_]

Oh! LoL - I said "older" cultures, I meant younger. LOL oops. :P

If you click on 'edit' on your posts you can edit them if you need to. It won't affect posts that quote you before editing, but you can state your reason to make it clear why you changed your post :)

[Senbecc]

If you click on 'edit' on your posts you can edit them if you need to. It won't affect posts that quote you before editing, but you can state your reason to make it clear why you changed your post :)


I'll remember that! Thank ya!

[earthtide]

Sooo.. a little off topic sort of, but how do you guys pronounce "celtic?" Do you say it with a soft s, as in "sel-tik," or with a hard k as in "kel-tik?"

Is it odd that I get an eye twitch whenever I hear someone say "sel-tik?"

[Seren_]

Sooo.. a little off topic sort of, but how do you guys pronounce "celtic?" Do you say it with a soft s, as in "sel-tik," or with a hard k as in "kel-tik?"

Is it odd that I get an eye twitch whenever I hear someone say "sel-tik?"

It's 'kel-tik'. Though when referring to Celtic Football Club (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_F.C.), it's pronounced 'sel-tik'.

[earthtide]

It's 'kel-tik'. Though when referring to Celtic Football Club (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_F.C.), it's pronounced 'sel-tik'.

See, that's what I've always thought. And then someone goes and says "Thee sel-tick cult-oores from Wales are faaaascinating.." And then my eye twitches.

[David19]

Cool, and interesting, post, Skilly-nilly, I kind of knew that the word "Celt" or "Celtic" describes a very large area, and peoples, and you can't say they're all the same, had the "same beliefs", the "same Gods", etc. Your post really cleared things up :).

[Fiamma]

It's 'kel-tik'. Though when referring to Celtic Football Club (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_F.C.), it's pronounced 'sel-tik'.


Same thing when referring to Boston's NBA franchise.

I have though, seen somewhere, an argument for the "sel-tick" pronounciation being a correct variation by way of the French language. Unfortunately, I don't know where it was anymore- it was at least two years ago if I recall. I don't know enough about linguistics to say that I think it was a viable argument or not, but if anyone feels like trying to look up and delve into that, it could be interesting.

Personally, I also prefer "kel-tick" to "sel-tick". Fortunately, the only pronounciation of "sel-tick" I've really run into in the last several eyars, basketball aside, has been from some yahoo running around my city who once informed me that "I just became a sel-tick shaman two weeks ago when I found out that I was part sel-tick"...and then the same guy a few years later who somehow remembered me and then informed me that he was now a second degree Gardnerian on top of being a sel-tick shaman.

Talk about your twitching....

[earthtide]

Same thing when referring to Boston's NBA franchise.

I have though, seen somewhere, an argument for the "sel-tick" pronounciation being a correct variation by way of the French language. Unfortunately, I don't know where it was anymore- it was at least two years ago if I recall. I don't know enough about linguistics to say that I think it was a viable argument or not, but if anyone feels like trying to look up and delve into that, it could be interesting.

Personally, I also prefer "kel-tick" to "sel-tick". Fortunately, the only pronounciation of "sel-tick" I've really run into in the last several eyars, basketball aside, has been from some yahoo running around my city who once informed me that "I just became a sel-tick shaman two weeks ago when I found out that I was part sel-tick"...and then the same guy a few years later who somehow remembered me and then informed me that he was now a second degree Gardnerian on top of being a sel-tick shaman.

Talk about your twitching....

C in French changes from soft to hard depending on the vowel following, and e does make a soft c sound. However, the word is derived from Greek, Κέλτης. So.. whatever with the French pronunciation.

Dude.. my eye is twitching just reading that story. That's like every frickin' person in my town. There's nothing worse than a high-and-mighty hippie! :twitch: