How is homosexuality viewed in paganism and the Old Ways?

[-Sky-]

I am not meant to ask how the pagan community treats homosexual men and women. I know for a fact that many gays and lesbians find shelter in our spirituality because of the open-mindedness and the love.

However i was wondering how this choice of sexuality fits in paganism?I would be interested to know any mentions in mythology of any culture about homosexual Goddesses or Gods or maybe demi-deities. Were any practices between the people of the Old Days that indicated the same sexuality?Any rites between females or males?

And if any bisexuals or homesexuals visit this thread,could you share how and if your sexuality affects your spirituality and religion?Is it incorporated in it like heterosexuals invoke the Goddess and the God for their practices or sex magic?

[Stoirmeacha]

I have heard that the Gaulish Celts were said to be offended when Roman soldiers rejected their advances.

I am a Celtic Recon/Gaelic Polytheist and my sexuality doesn't affect my religious practice at all. It is something entirely seperate for me.

And I think there are homosexual references with Zeus and his cup bearer....?
Not sure, but you might find something with the all-powerfull GOOGLE!

[Tanya]

while not everyone around here is Wiccan by any stretch I think the "harm none" principle is widely accepted and comes into pretty strong play to my moral sense.... in that....

who, what and how you engage your genitles is no one's concern but yours and your consenting adult partner.


i.e DILLIGAF!

[-Sky-]

while not everyone around here is Wiccan by any stretch I think the "harm none" principle is widely accepted and comes into pretty strong play to my moral sense.... in that....

who, what and how you engage your genitles is no one's concern but yours and your consenting adult partner.


i.e DILLIGAD!

I don't understand your post...Are you saying that i am not being moral enough?I don't think i am harming anyone and i am definately not being disrespectful. In my opinion,homosexuality is not only with who you are sharing your bed but also a lifestyle.

I didn't force anyone to narrate me his sex capades(i'm watching too much Buffy,i know lol) with his significant other.Actually this is not the point of the thread. I am just curious and would love to be introduced in how homesexuality is in modern days and was in ancient years through historical facts incorporated in religion and spirituality.

And don't tell me that female/male and sexuality is not connected with or incorporated in religion and magic.Otherwise we would not have fertility/love/sex spells nor would we follow the journey of the Goddess and God's love throughout the year. It is a big part of our lives.

[lightdragon]

I have heard that the Gaulish Celts were said to be offended when Roman soldiers rejected their advances.

Bear in mind some of the stuff the Romans said about the Celts was propaganda. especially Julius Ceasar

[Toki Wartooth]

I have heard that the Gaulish Celts were said to be offended when Roman soldiers rejected their advances.

I am a Celtic Recon/Gaelic Polytheist and my sexuality doesn't affect my religious practice at all. It is something entirely seperate for me.

And I think there are homosexual references with Zeus and his cup bearer....?
Not sure, but you might find something with the all-powerfull GOOGLE!

Hm...I have not heard that thing about the Gaulish Celts.

I can't speak for the Greek pantheon, which is separate and distinct from the Roman, but Jupiter I believe had a "thing" with his cup-bearer, Ganymede, if I recall the mythology properly.

In fact, several Roman deities had relationships and affairs with mortals and immortals of different genders. Apollo, for example, had one with a young man named Hyacinthus. You can see about Apollo's female and male mates here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo#Consorts_and_children

The Roman empire seemed tolerant of varying sexual orientation. If one reads some of Catullus' (contemporary of Julius Caesar) poetry, one can learn some of his relations with numerous men and his pining for one woman, Lesbia. However, during Augustus' reign, he did want to get people married and to stay married, so this might've caused a little negative viewing of non-heterosexual relationships, but I don't know terribly much about that. Just thought I'd mention it at the very least.

[Lajmar]

Several Greek deities have been depicted as having same-sex affairs and some as crossdressing, such as Dionysus. Then there is Artemis with her band of women. Oya a female Orisha of Yoruban mythology, is often depicted with a beard and as a female warrior. Ezili Danto is often said to favor lesbians, just as Ezili Freda is said to favor gay males in Vodou. There is also one tale of Set and Horus engaging in homosexual activity in Egyptian mythology.

[Tanya]

I don't understand your post...Are you saying that i am not being moral enough?I don't think i am harming anyone and i am definately not being disrespectful. In my opinion,homosexuality is not only with who you are sharing your bed but also a lifestyle.

I didn't force anyone to narrate me his sex capades(i'm watching too much Buffy,i know lol) with his significant other.Actually this is not the point of the thread. I am just curious and would love to be introduced in how homesexuality is in modern days and was in ancient years through historical facts incorporated in religion and spirituality.

And don't tell me that female/male and sexuality is not connected with or incorporated in religion and magic.Otherwise we would not have fertility/love/sex spells nor would we follow the journey of the Goddess and God's love throughout the year. It is a big part of our lives.

I'm saying in general terms of pagan morality(which is always shaky ground since genralizing about this gang is ...lol... nearly impossible)...I think homesexuality is totally moral and frankly no one's business but the participants'.

[Caitlin.ann]

And I think there are homosexual references with Zeus and his cup bearer....?
Not sure, but you might find something with the all-powerfull GOOGLE!

Zeus and Ganeymeade (sp).

That name will forever remain in my mind due to my senior year of high school. We had to choose names of Greek gods to be our official class name. I was Hekate and my friend (who happens to be gay) choose Ganeymeade for that reason. :)

[Devashra]

Hi

I am a lesbian and i have heard that all cultures that had a Polytheistic View were all open and were practicing homosexuality .

Hope my language is not too bad.

Peace Devashra

[Devashra]

Hi

I am a lesbian and i have heard that all cultures that had a Polytheistic View were all open and were practicing homosexuality .

Hope my language is not too bad.

Peace Devashra

[Stoirmeacha]

Bear in mind some of the stuff the Romans said about the Celts was propaganda. especially Julius Ceasar

Yeah, in all likelihood it was written by a Roman...I'll have to hunt down where I heard it.

[Stoirmeacha]

"In book VIII of his Deipnosophists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deipnosophists), the Roman Greek rhetorician and grammarian Athenaeus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenaeus), repeating assertions made by Diodorus Siculus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diodorus_Siculus) in the 1st century BC, wrote that Celtic women were beautiful but that the men preferred to sleep together and "the young men will offer themselves to strangers and are insulted if the offer is refused" (Diod 5:32). "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

Though wikipedia isn't always reliable, I think this is where I heard it.
I also found the following, though I don't know its historical accuracy:

"Many ancient writers, such as Strabo and Athenaeus, wrote that the Gauls or Celts commonly practised homosexuality. Aristotle wrote that the Celts "openly held in honor passionate friendship (synousia) between males". Diodorus Siculus wrote that "Although the Gauls have lovely women, they scarcely pay attention to them, but strangely crave male embraces (arrenon epiplokas). Resting on the ground on beasts' skins, they are accustomed to roll about with bedfellows (parakoitois) on either side." Later, Eusebius of Caesarea, wrote that "Among the Gauls, the young men marry each other (gamountai) with complete freedom. In doing this, they do not incur any reproach or blame, since this is done according to custom amongst them." Bardaisan of Edessa wrote that "In the countries of the north — in the lands of the Germans and those of their neighbors, handsome [noble] young men assume the role of wives [women] towards other men, and they celebrate marriage feasts."

http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/marriage.htm

If it is true....then I am a new fan of the Gauls...lol

[lightdragon]

I`m not an expert on what was propaganda what wasn`t. I do know there was a more relaxed view on sex with the celts. And from what was recorded about the Roman senators and other high ranking romans. Also if you wanted access to beautiful women with little or no competition. And a satire of Julius Ceasar :

Home we bring home our bald whoremonger;
Romans lock your wives away!
all the bags of gold you lent him
went to his Gallic tarts to pay.

Suetonius: Twelve Caesars trans by Robert Graves pg. 36

[Stoirmeacha]

Oh my...that Caesar...

[Windygo]

And don't tell me that female/male and sexuality is not connected with or incorporated in religion and magic.Otherwise we would not have fertility/love/sex spells nor would we follow the journey of the Goddess and God's love throughout the year. It is a big part of our lives.

I think people were trying to say that their personal orientation doesn't really work into their magic. I suppose for some practices it would, but for others not so much. People who like to get a specific Lord and Lady and pair them up might want to think about it, I suppose.

I've been away from magic for a bit but I did enjoy incorporating cross-dressing for various reasons. However, that's about gender and pure identity, I suppose, not necessarily who I'm attracted to in day to day life.

Today it's been my experience that most pagans are more than cool with homosexuality, although I do know there are ones about who still claim to be about "Family Values". There's an old thread, actually, about someone who was running a Pagan directory site, and refused to incorporate Dianic webpages or homosexuality(bisexuality as well, I suppose.)

[Cat]

Any hetero ritual can be done by a same gender couple, though you might need to change the language.

The Greeks incorporated homosexuality into their culture, it was very mainstream. Beyond that I don't know, but I don't think that most cultures were/are as phobic about sex as ours is now.

[MidnightFire]

My sexual orientation has never really been an issue with either my spirituality or any other aspect of my life. I enjoy my spiritual beliefs because they are so open and accepting of everyone regardless.


In my opinion,homosexuality is not only with who you are sharing your bed but also a lifestyle.

I'm sorry but this is one of the things people can say that sets me off. It is not a lifestyle, unless you are looking at the stereotypical impression that all we do is go out and party and sleep around. I grew up in a farm town, so I can go out and wrestle around livestock with the best of 'em if need be, which is a far cry from the stereotypical impression. A lifestyle is something you go out to do and enjoy, such as bull riding, exercise, partying. Who you are attracted to or fall in love with is not a lifestyle. Nor is it a choice to be homosexual. I certainly didn't sit down one day and decide to be gay so I could deal with the bullsh*t.

Sorry about the rant but it needed to come out.

[teishabee]

I think the meaning what that homosexuality is apart of your life and therefore not separate from your faith.


Found this link to do with the cult of Diana.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_Herodias

[-Sky-]

I think the meaning what that homosexuality is apart of your life and therefore not separate from your faith.


Found this link to do with the cult of Diana.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_Herodias

Thanks.That's what i meant!Maybe i didn't phrase it well. Oh and thanks for the link,definately checking it out!


I'm sorry but this is one of the things people can say that sets me off. It is not a lifestyle, unless you are looking at the stereotypical impression that all we do is go out and party and sleep around. I grew up in a farm town, so I can go out and wrestle around livestock with the best of 'em if need be, which is a far cry from the stereotypical impression. A lifestyle is something you go out to do and enjoy, such as bull riding, exercise, partying. Who you are attracted to or fall in love with is not a lifestyle. Nor is it a choice to be homosexual. I certainly didn't sit down one day and decide to be gay so I could deal with the bullsh*t.

No worries,rant away.hehe What i've been trying to explain is what teishabee stated. Sexuality whether it is hetero or homo is an integral part of everyone's life as is spirituality so i don't see why they shouldn't interact.

MidnightFire, you talk about your sexual orientation like it is a burden.I remember a greek poet conveying the same in his poems.Anyway, i think that falling in love and being attracted to someone is beautiful. You do not choose it but it becomes part of your life and you have to accept it. To me lifestyle is how you choose to live life or how your life is in general.

[parallax]

However i was wondering how this choice of sexuality fits in paganism?I would be interested to know any mentions in mythology of any culture about homosexual Goddesses or Gods or maybe demi-deities. Were any practices between the people of the Old Days that indicated the same sexuality?Any rites between females or males?

And if any bisexuals or homesexuals visit this thread,could you share how and if your sexuality affects your spirituality and religion?Is it incorporated in it like heterosexuals invoke the Goddess and the God for their practices or sex magic?


Yes, homosexuality has been practiced throughout the world and history. Whether or not it was accepted or welcome depends on the culture. We know that many Roman men had sexual relations with other men. Wikipedia has an interesting timeline here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_LGBT_history that would be a good starting point for you.
And the Viking Answer Lady discusses homosexuality among Vikings here: http://vikinganswerlady.com/gayvik.shtml.
We have the word "lesbian" thanks to Sappho, born on the island of Lesbos.

I think many people have made mention of a number of Greek and Roman deities that have to do with homosexuality.
In the Norse pantheon Loki is a particularly interesting character. He shapeshifted into female form in the Sagas and actually gave birth to Sleipnir, Odin's stead.

I don't think my sexuality really affects my spirituality at its root. I'm thankful for a community that is understanding and welcoming of it but that's about it. I'm not Wiccan and I don't work with the Goddess and God. I work with specific deities from specific pantheons. I don't feel the need to always have a male and female, I don't feel the need for gender balance in all my workings that way. I find working with groups that insist on gender balance to be uncomfortable and frustrating, particularly because they are often insistent that male and masculinity are intrinsically linked and female and femininity are as well. I'm certain that gender is not binary, that it is mostly influenced by society, that our expressions of femininity and masculinity need not be pigeonholed by our DNA and genitalia. With gender fluidity, the roles of of a feminine female Goddess archetype and a masculine male God archetype are kind of...moot.

[sidhe]

I'm going to try to type something with a straight face.

Thelema emphasizes the masculine/feminine balance, perfected through the union of male and female, via the construct of a Beast & a Scarlet Woman.

*schnort*

*laughs*

Okay, the balance of male/female is true...but that calls for acting as both male and female, giver and receiver. And you have the notion of an active receiver, and a passive giver. And Beastesses with their Scarlet Men...or Scarlet Women, or a Beast /w a Scarlet Man.

So, yeah, homosexuals, bisexuals, pansexuals, transgender or genderqueer folks...all welcome.

[Louisvillian]

I am a lesbian and i have heard that all cultures that had a Polytheistic View were all open and were practicing homosexuality.
Not necessarily. Many cultures with a polytheistic religion were just as brutal, racist, and closed-minded as any other; it's a matter of chronological context. In the bronze age, just about every tribe was ethnicist, brutal, and warlike. It was the only way to survive.

Homosexuality was not always accepted in Indo-European polytheistic cultures, by the way. Thought the Greeks let it go by without much fuss, the Roman aristocracy was against it, and Caesar Augustus made laws against it. The Norse pagans, notably, saw effeminacy by a male warrior as a crime, punishable by death, and magic was restricted to the female clergy.
So, in ancient times, things were not so simply, and often, tribes were not as open as some would like to think.

Modern pagan religions are a different story. The advent of Wicca in North America during the 60s coincided with the sexual revolution in American society, and led to Wicca becoming the mainstream of North American neopaganism, and a centre of liberal religious activity. Many non-Wiccan neopagan religions are influenced in no small way by Wicca's ethical standpoint on sexual liberty.

PS:

Dominatrixes (dominatrices? lol, I've always wondered about that)
Yes, it would be dominatrices. Although the root word should be Domina, as that is the proper feminine of Dominus. So, the grammatically proper plural is Dominae.

[Miss Dana]

I'm going to try to type something with a straight face.

Thelema emphasizes the masculine/feminine balance, perfected through the union of male and female, via the construct of a Beast & a Scarlet Woman.

*schnort*

*laughs*

Okay, the balance of male/female is true...but that calls for acting as both male and female, giver and receiver. And you have the notion of an active receiver, and a passive giver. And Beastesses with their Scarlet Men...or Scarlet Women, or a Beast /w a Scarlet Man.

So, yeah, homosexuals, bisexuals, pansexuals, transgender or genderqueer folks...all welcome.

I think that is a very interesting way of looking at it, especially with the giver and receiver part because let's face it, there are even hetero sex acts that can change who is giving and recieving. And that are plenty of Dominatixes (dominatrices? lol, I've always wondered about that) who work for male clients, and some who work for female clients ;) Anyway, my point is that discription works for any circumstance. Thanks for sharing.

[Dushara]

Well speaking for my spiritual ancestors, I have no idea what the Pagan Yemenites thought about homosexuality. Culturally and Spiritually they were more related to Ethiopia's Aksumite Empire than to the Arabic traditions of the North. I do know that the Arabian tribes of the north and Nabataea were against homosexuality, or at least discouraged it within their traditional culture.

When they found out about it within Greek society, they were turned off by it, apparently because it was considered taboo within their own society. I am not sure if this was because of Jewish influence, since Arabs, Nabataeans and Jews lived together, or because homosexuality was generally taboo in the Semitic cultures of those regions. I tend to go with the latter.

[WolfWhoSings]

In some North American tribes (again, generalization is a dicey thing) there was the concept of "twin spirited" or "two spirited" people, those who were both male and female in nature. If they so chose, a male could choose to be the wife of another man and live as a woman. (I don't know if the converse is true.)

Some have also said that such twin spirited folk were considered to be a little more in touch with the divine, but that could be a later spin.