Mystery religions

[Ben Gruagach]

Do you consider your religion to be a "Mystery religion"? Please tell us what your religion is (if it has a name, or is a specific tradition within a larger group like Wicca.)

What makes your religion a "Mystery religion"?

No need to give away any secrets - just want to see what people consider to be a "Mystery religion" and what sorts of modern Pagan religions could be considered "Mystery religions."

[ChelleOfShadows]

I'm a witch I do not consider it a religion as I have joined no coven nor does any wiccan pagan group have claim to me except the friends I have made here. I consider being a witch my destiny NOT my religion. Religion is a broad name given to many groups who are not really sure what they are looking for or if once they have joined if they have found it!

oops, sorry I'll get off my soapbox now......

[Armitage]

What's the definition of a mystery religion?

[MistOfTheSea86]

Depends on what you call a mystery. My beliefs are rooted in many things, some known and some not. But with understanding one can always live with a flashlight in the darkness.

[Melysande]

**grins** I'll gladly tell all about my religion to anyone who wants to know, so in that sense, it's not a mystery.

Will I let you watch me practice? As a rule, not a chance. So in that sense, it's a mystery.

[Ben Gruagach]

What is a "Mystery religion"? That's really the core of what I'm asking.

I've seen some Wiccans say that theirs is a Mystery religion, and I'm hoping that someone here (Wiccan or not it doesn't matter) can help clarify what a Mystery religion is for them. What makes it a Mystery religion that is different from other similar religions that aren't Mystery religions?

One book I'm reading now defines a Mystery religion as the following:

A Mystery Religion is:
1. A system of religious symbolism
2. A religion of redemption
3. A gnosis
4. A sacramental drama
5. An eschatological ["end of the world"] religion
6. Primarily a personal religion
7. A cosmic religion

That's from S. Angus' "The Mystery-Religions" (ISBN 0-486-23124-0). I'm not sure that a religion counts as a mystery religion if it has just one of these traits, but I don't think either that a mystery religion has to have all of these traits.

Ideas? Thoughts? I'd love to hear them. That's why I asked the question.

[Illuminatus]

You kiddin? WE don't even know what's up with our religion. Hail Eris, All Hail Discordia.

[mato]

Not by that definition but in that there will never be a book published to summerize mine nor shall there be any writings of it. Most of my gods have never been named by anthropologists adding security to the mix. Plus the fact that only a blood relative may be initiated makes my religion pretty much a mystery to every one.
However there is no armagedon nor any redemption (though many may plead for it) on my path. We dont believe in forgiveness of wrong doing and one of the major sins in my religion is the forgiving of the unforgivable, accepting the unacceptable. So redemption then would only land one in hot water :devil:.

[Ben Gruagach]

Well, as of the time I write this, the poll has 13 votes, with 5 saying "Yes, my religion is definitely a Mystery Religion."

Could anyone who believes their religion is a Mystery Religion share with us what they feel makes their religion different from other paths that aren't part of the "Mystery"?

What ARE people's definitions of "Mystery Religion"?

[mato]

Simply put, awarness. Awakening the soul from it's slumber in this physical being and utalizing it as a tool like any other to accomplish tasks. Unlike wiccans and other neo pagans I dont believe that all religions are right to the individual, rather that only a handfull have any real marrit. What makes it a mystery religion is that few people can handle the truth and fewer than that have the privilage of understanding it. Also only real people can see what is there, every one else is just SOL. The reason for the 'mystery' is because it was the fake people who caused such problems as overpopulation and the mass murders to head it off in the name of those who would not have such (hense the fall).

[Illuminatus]

I'm a cardcarrying Pope of the Discordian Church. If I say Discordia is a Mystery religion, guess what!!? It's a mystery religion! Why?? Because I said so!!! I have complete, unilateral, and absolute power to dictate the tennants of my path. It's binding too. I can e-mail all the discordians of the world and tell them that the Buffalo is a sacred animal, therefore Buffalo wings should be incorporated into the diet of every Discordian. And they'll do it, too. Sure, some may misinterpret my holy word and go out and urinate on turtles instead, but that doesn't reflect on my sovreignity or the purity of my original message. Discordia is a mystery religion BECAUSE I SAID IT IS!!!!!

- Illuminatus!!!

[mol]

Originally posted by Ben Gruagach
Do you consider your religion to be a "Mystery religion"? Please tell us what your religion is (if it has a name, or is a specific tradition within a larger group like Wicca.)

Mine sure seems to be a mystery to anyone else. Especially when I try to explain it them. I refer to it lovingly as...binary.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally posted by mol


Mine sure seems to be a mystery to anyone else. Especially when I try to explain it them. I refer to it lovingly as...binary.

True. But then again, I think that all religions are mysterious. If religion was straightforward, people wouldn't spend so much time contemplating it.

[Mithrea]

Originally posted by Mnemosyne

True. But then again, I think that all religions are mysterious. If religion was straightforward, people wouldn't spend so much time contemplating it.

I agree. All religions have mysteries. Ben, do you really mean "mystery religions" or are you talking about mystery sects and focuses of different religions?


*edited for clarity

[Ben Gruagach]

I've seen some Wiccans insist that their particular traditions are "Mystery Religions" while other Wiccan traditions aren't. Yet getting a definition of what is and isn't a "Mystery Religion" seems to be the REAL mystery.

I fully expect some non-Wiccan Pagan religions to say they are "Mystery Religions" too, and was hoping that someone could clear this up for me.

[Ben Gruagach]

One more comment - at the moment, the poll in this thread has seven people who've said their religion is DEFINITELY a Mystery Religion.

Would any of these people please explain it for the rest of us? What makes your religion a "Mystery Religion" and other religions not?

[Mithrea]

Ben,

A Mystery Religion is one that believes it has secret knowledge that must be kept secret. To learn the secrets, you must be initiated into the religion. Initiates take a journey usually that involves purifucation and education and ends with a ritual of sort that involves reinacting sacred stories, receiving secret instructions and information and viewing sacred objects.

Some famous Greek Mystery religions are the Eleusinian Mysteries, the Dionysian Mysteries, the Orphic Mysteries and the Pythagoreans. The Cult of Isis is one, though not Greek. (I had written a short explanation of each of these but my cat deleted it :rolleyes: )

The point is thought that most religions have mysteries. Gnostics were/are a mystery sect of Christianity, for example. While people may vote in your poll, they are not likely to say, "My religion is a mystery religion and here are my secrets so you will know why." Make sense? :)

[Ben Gruagach]

Thanks, Mithrea.

You've pretty much just confirmed what the "book definition" is for a Mystery Religion. But apart from the "initiation" requirement, I'm not sure there are any religions that don't qualify as a Mystery Religion then.

Even with the "initiation" requirement, religions that don't have an official initiation ceremony where an elder welcomes/acknowledges a newcomer could still count as a Mystery Religion. Initiation covers more than just a formal welcoming into a specific group. What some people call an Initiate others would call an "enlightened one" or "someone who has attained [some minimal level of] gnosis" or "someone who has a personal relationship with the Divine."

If you read back through the thread, you'll also see I specifically said I wasn't asking anyone to share their tradition's secrets - just to explain why they feel their tradition is a Mystery Religion while others aren't. No oaths need to be broken!

My own personal opinion of this is that what people are calling a Mystery Religion is really what I'd call a Mystical Religion - it's where the emphasis is on attaining a personal relationship with the Divine, which Thelemites call "conversation with one's Holy Guardian Angel." I know not all religions emphasize that part of religious practice, but usually leave it for a small group of devotees like specific orders of nuns or monks. Not even all priests or priestesses necessarily are expected in some religions to be that mystical, but rather fulfill more of a mundane function for the religious structure.

Thoughts? I want to hear more about what others think!

[Mithrea]

If you read back through the thread, you'll also see I specifically said I wasn't asking anyone to share their tradition's secrets - just to explain why they feel their tradition is a Mystery Religion while others aren't. No oaths need to be broken!

I still don't see how one can answer that question other than just telling you that they have secrets, and you already know that.



My own personal opinion of this is that what people are calling a Mystery Religion is really what I'd call a Mystical Religion - it's where the emphasis is on attaining a personal relationship with the Divine, which Thelemites call "conversation with one's Holy Guardian Angel." I know not all religions emphasize that part of religious practice, but usually leave it for a small group of devotees like specific orders of nuns or monks. Not even all priests or priestesses necessarily are expected in some religions to be that mystical, but rather fulfill more of a mundane function for the religious structure.

Please give an example of a religion where the idea is not, to bring yourself closer to a divine. I think you are just grappling with religious structure here. There are mysteries in every religion and yes sometimes they are compartmentalized into sects of their respective faiths. Sometimes they are not.

I think that seeing Mysteries as equal to Myticism is a media influenced perspective and as we become more and more aware of that, that sort of scholarship is falling out of favor. Here again though, it's an idea that can only be fully explored by exploring the actual mysteries themselves. Take a look at this book:

Mystery Knowledge and Mystery Centres: Fourteen Lectures
by Rudolf Steiner

or

The Mystery Schools
by Grace F. Knoche

or

The Secret Teachings of All Ages : An Encyclopedic Outline of Masonic, Hermetic, Qabbalistic, and Rosicrucian Symbolical Philosophy by Manly P. Hall (This might be more what you are looking for but I caution you against generalization)

Maybe those will help. :)

[Ben Gruagach]

Thanks for elaborating, Mithrea.

I was hoping that someone would try and actually explain what the difference is supposed to be, if there is one. A lot of the posts in response to the original question have been along the lines of "yes, my religion is a mystery religion" which doesn't really tell us what makes it so.

Thanks for the book suggestions. I'll have to look for those ones.

I've been reading Walter Burkert's book "Greek Religion" (ISBN 0-674-36281-0) which has a section on the Greek Mysteries. It's a book I'd recommend from what I've read so far. I'm also working through S. Angus' "The Mystery-Religions" (ISBN 0-486-23124-0) which is where I got the list of qualities for a Mystery Religion I posted earlier on in this thread.

The book that really spurred me on in this particular topic was Ellen Cannon Reeds' "The Heart of Wicca" (ISBN 1-57863-174-2). I have to admit the book made me mad. She goes on at some length about how "her Wicca" is a Mystery Religion, but never clarifies what makes her version of Wicca a Mystery Religion and what other Wiccans practice not a Mystery Religion. I found her book to be rather condescending; she talks about "gritting her teeth" when other Wiccans who practice other ways are discussed.

The closest thing I could figure out from her book was that what she was calling a Mystery Religion is what I'm calling Mystical. Yes, all religions have to do primarily with relating to some concept of the Divine. But a Mystic is one who goes that extra step beyond, attempting to attain a close relationship with the Divine, often by identification with the chosen deity, divine possession, what Colin Wilson talks about in his books "The Occult", "Mysteries," and "Beyond the Occult" as a peak experience. The rite of "Drawing Down the Moon" and its variations is essentially a mystical rite in my opinion, but to a Mystic (or in my understanding of what a Mystery Religion is) that identification with and "drawing down into one's self" is central. When the rite is done and something actually happens in the person who is receiving the deity, then to me they are doing the Mystery part of the religion. And that has nothing to do with initiations into established traditions, and can happen in a variety of ways, despite what I felt Ellen Cannon Reed was insisting in her book.

Every religion teaches things, has its own set of "lessons", so that doesn't set one religion apart as a Mystery Religion to me. Worshipping and honouring the Divine happens in all religions, so that doesn't set a Mystery Religion apart either. But not all religions are predominantly Mystical, with that focus on a genuinely close individual relationship with the Divine. To me, that's what makes a Mystery Religion different. It's the "conversation with one's Holy Guardian Angel" that Thelemites strive for. It's the "enlightenment" of Buddhism. It's the state of divine bliss, nirvana, that many forms of meditation work towards. It's the point when microcosm and macrocosm are truly in tune and conscious of each other.

These things, which I'm calling "mysticism" or what I think is the "Mystery" part, are not the only thing there is to religion. Magick has its place and can certainly be a focus, as can good works and making the world a better place. When I hear or read someone saying that their religion is a Mystery Religion (like in Ellen Cannon Reed's book) I want to know what they mean by that. The term is thrown around a lot in the Pagan community, and I think we need to clarify what it is we mean by that.

[Mithrea]

Okay Ben, now we are off in another direction, talking about something else altogether. I find that in the Pagan community (and this is all in my experience and my opinion), there is alot of snobbery that goes on. People are constantly trying to devalue other's paths and claim that there path is the one true way. I think that's bunk because the reason I came to this path is because of the highly unique, personal and individual experience it can offer.

Having secret knowledge makes some of us feel special. Feeling special is what some people get out religion in general. So my answer to you is that you are taking her too seriously. She obviously has some self worth issues that make her feel like she needs to put others down in order to make herself feel better. That's called being a bully and it has nothing to do with my path but I see others doing that all of the time.

I would say that it sounds like to her, being a mystery religion means being better in some way. This is not the case. She is misusing the term. Yes, having the secret knowledge of the key to the universe would make you feel special but part of keeping it secret means not talking about it at all. You don't go running around saying, "I know it and you don't" or "You are stupid because you don't know" It doesn't work that way. So the problem is not with *your* understanding of the term. I think you get it. You are just seeing someone misusing it and doubting yourself.

The book you mentioned by Reed isn't published by Llewellyn but some of hers are. I will say it now for everyone. You can not, REPEAT *NOT* rely on the validity of anything any author from Llewellyn writes. It's right in their guidelines. They are not looking for academic accuracy only practical applications. Writers who write for them carry that mindset over into their other writings for other publishers.

Ben, if you really want to research this seriously (which it sounds like you do) stick mainly to university presses. For Religious studies, try poking around at Cornell University Press. Here is the link to their website: http://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/

I think you can also search at amazon by publisher. Cornell is sort of the center for religious studies in this country so they are the best source for info.

Good Luck!

[Ben Gruagach]

It's good to hear it coming from someone else. Thanks, Mithrea. You put in blunt terms what I've been thinking but was avoiding saying outright.

With that out of the way, I think I'm going to start up another thread related to this one to encourage people to share methods they have tried or have heard of regarding "communing with the Divine." Things like meditations, pathworking, but hopefully descriptions of other lesser known methods.

And I will continue to explore what a Mystery Religion is by checking out the books and sources you've suggested.

Thanks!

(BTW - Llewellyn does produce highly questionable stuff 99% of the time. However, there are gems in there if you read with a good bull***t filter in place and have a good grounding from non-Llewellyn sources. They've published some Israel Regardie stuff, Donald Michael Kraig's "Modern Magick," and things like "The Magical Pantheons" edited by Chic Cicero and Sandra Tabatha Cicero which are worth checking out. Just ignore some of the questionable bits like Kisma Stepanich's article in that last book, which is mostly good.)

[Amber Ravenstar]

I consider a Mystery Religion to be one that has truths that must be experienced personally rather than read or learned from books or teachers.

Yes, I've learned a lot from books and from fellow Pagans. However, the core of my faith is my personal relationship with gods and goddesses. I find that I am a far more spiritual person and have a deeper faith than I ever would have thought possible when I was still a member of a mainstream religion years ago.

These are things that, of necessity, remain mysteries for several reasons.

1) It is nigh on impossible to describe to another a personal experience with a deity, try as you might. You cannot give them or teach them that experience. (I know this from my own experience)
2) There are folks out there who will "lock you up for your own protection" if you tell them about your talk with a goddess.

Just my own two cents' worth.

[amberlaine]

What the above poster said is basically what I wanted to say, as well.

I don't think a Mystery Religion has anything to do with the members having secret knowledge that can only be shared with initiaties. I think a religion becomes a mystery religion when the central truths and central puporse of the religion are things that *cannot* be shared, but rather must be experienced.

All religions have a mystery aspect to them. However, I think what differentiaties Mystery Religions from some of these other religions is that utter lack of textual references that can be taken or mis-taken for transcendent truth.

For example, in Judaism, you have the 613 laws that Jews are expected to follow. THey have the Torah, the Tanakh, and the Talmud, all of which are references that can be used to determine if a person if living a right life, if a person's head is screwed on correctly, etc. These texts can also help seekers identify the face of God, come to have a rletionship with God, etc. While of course there are things in Judaism that cannot be expressed in words, there is a lot that is written down--and once you write something down, people have a tendency to take it for granted. That becomes the whole of their truth. They no longer seek out the Mystery.

A mystery religion, by contrast, is one with so few written(thereby seemingly unchangeable) texts, that in order to determine what their theology is, what their code of conduct should be, what their relationship with the Divine should be and how to get there, the individual is*forced* to experience the Mystery, because there is simply no other way to go about answering these questions. THere is no time-tested standard way to answer these questions. Each individual is on a quest, guided by his own intuition and the hand of the Divine, rather than the wisdom of his sages. This is the crux: a wisdom tradition, like Christianity or Judaism or Islam, relies centrally on the wisdom of the sages to structure the individual's path. A mystery tradition relies primarily on the the experience of the mystery.

A mystical tradition is one in which the adherent seeks primarily to *experience God*. Not just to know God, or to understand God, or to do God's work, but to actually experience God. Mystical traditions believe that there is a chasm between man and God, and that certain rites or practices can help the individualbridge that gap and experience god directly. This is primarly why I wouldn't call Wicca a mystical tradition: we *don't* believe that there is a chasm between man and God, and therefore, don't see any need to bridge the gap. We believe we can experience God *without* rites of ceremonies or dnaces,whatever. We may certainly have more intense experiences while in an ecstatic state, but ultimately, pantheistic religions aren't mystical. God is already here, to be experienced in every common experience.

[mol]

Originally posted by amberlaine

I don't think a Mystery Religion has anything to do with the members having secret knowledge that can only be shared with initiaties. I think a religion becomes a mystery religion when the central truths and central puporse of the religion are things that *cannot* be shared, but rather must be experienced.

*applause*

And there it is....thank you!

[Amethyst Rose]

I started out this post saying something completely different (which is why it's been edited.) I even wish I could have changed my answer in the poll, because I'm not so sure that what I said really fits.

In one sense of the word, my religion is not a mystery religion, because I'm an Eclectic Wiccan and basically book learned. However, there are aspects about my religion that have been shaped by my own philosphies as I've grown and pondered and accepted and rejected various theories and ideas, that would be a mystery to others. There are things that I've learned that no one could find in a book, because they have to be experienced....
So now I'm no longer so sure where my religion fits in....

[Haedis]

Yet again I'm too late to give an answer that hasnt been said. Amber and amber have explained it very well.

(no wonder I read so much and post so little!)

[Ben Gruagach]

Originally posted by amberlaine
A mystical tradition is one in which the adherent seeks primarily to *experience God*. Not just to know God, or to understand God, or to do God's work, but to actually experience God. Mystical traditions believe that there is a chasm between man and God, and that certain rites or practices can help the individualbridge that gap and experience god directly. This is primarly why I wouldn't call Wicca a mystical tradition: we *don't* believe that there is a chasm between man and God, and therefore, don't see any need to bridge the gap. We believe we can experience God *without* rites of ceremonies or dnaces,whatever. We may certainly have more intense experiences while in an ecstatic state, but ultimately, pantheistic religions aren't mystical. God is already here, to be experienced in every common experience.

Thanks for that wonderful post, Amberlaine! This is great food for thought.

I'd like to add my own thoughts about the "chasm" between people and the Divine. I know that for many (like Judeo-Christians) the chasm is based on the idea that the Divine is transcendant rather than immanent (in "heaven" rather than present in all existence.) I'd suggest that the chasm also exists for those of us who believe the Divine is immanent - but the separation consists of our own mental separation from the Divine. The Mystery to me is learning that we must "live mindfully" so that we can increase our awareness of the Divine that is around and within us always. Our routine mundane lives tend to distract us unless we make the effort to cross that chasm and recognize the Divine. Establishing that relationship with the Divine is "crossing the chasm" to me.

So I think that Wicca, and any Pagan or non-Pagan religion that seeks to establish a personal experience/relationship with the Divine is a "mystery religion." But then that's just my own opinion.

[Mythrel]

I voted that my beliefs are a mystery. Due to the fact that I can't seem to explain what I believe or how I come to all my religious conclusions to others. Then again, I'm weird...so be it!!!

;)

[Blueowl]

Haedis...I so know what you mean! <clapping hands> Well said...Mithrea, Ben...AMber....:D

[mol]

Even after all this time...this thread is great!

[Blueowl]

RIght on! I noticed that before I posted! :T :T :smoke:

[Xentor]

Greetings,

Voting first and reading later always makes me doubt my decisions. I like that. I like the doubt. Gives me something to work on, food for thought. Thus I consolidate my beliefs even further.

So I voted "Yes, mine's a mystery", and then, when reading, I thought, no, it's not, actually, it's all quite clear, and then, after more reading, I'm back at, well there's definitely something mysterious in there.

Let me explain.

In my religion, there's one dogma that can't be taught. We can describe it, give loads of examples, create pseudo-scientific evidence and the likes. But we can't teach you to feel it, to believe it, to know it true with all your might. That's the dogma that everything lives. As long as there's energy, it lives. Through energy training, one may experience the truth of that dogma. For all others, it's just that, an unexplained dogma. That should qualify as a personal mystery.

A completely other kind of mystery is the big "Why?". My religion holds true that the universe is cyclic in the same way a person may reincarnate. Even God are a reincarnation. We believe God have the sole purpose to create the next universe. We don't exactly strive for that universe, for it would mean that we ourselves cease to exist. But we believe that we live in order to help God achieve their purpose. And there's one question we can't answer. That question is "why?". It's a big mystery. We can put the question off by answering "because that's the way it is", but that isn't really an answer and merely illustrate that we are unable to answer at all. We merely believe. That's not a personal mystery, but it's a mystery of our belief as a whole.

See? I can explain the mysteries of my religion in some detail. The mystery is quite clear, nevertheless it remains a mystery.

[TheRiverDaughter]

Well, I'm kind of an inbetweener in terms of exactly WHAT i believe - but then I suppose we're all on a path to work that out.

Regardless, I'm quite sure that I am on a path of mystery because I believe that there are large parts of divinity that I can never understand fully - they are a mystery to me, and as I slowly grow stronger I may understand more of that mystery. I guess it's partially because I believe that Divinity is both imminent and transcendent - that it is all around us to experience, but that it is also something greater than I am.

I totally agree that "mystery religion" doesn't have anything to do with secrets that can only be told or shared among those who are initiated or members - that's certainly mysterious, but not the same kind of mystery, at least to me.

[Merlinawakend777]

you think similar to me, but that is just spirituality, there is no religion to it.


mystery religions are simmilar to stuff like the masons,
where only certain people are alowed in, and everything is hush hush.
its the stuff conspiricey theorist thrive on.

[plumedsnake]

Greetings,

Voting first and reading later always makes me doubt my decisions. I like that. I like the doubt. Gives me something to work on, food for thought. Thus I consolidate my beliefs even further.

So I voted "Yes, mine's a mystery", and then, when reading, I thought, no, it's not, actually, it's all quite clear, and then, after more reading, I'm back at, well there's definitely something mysterious in there.

Let me explain.

In my religion, there's one dogma that can't be taught. We can describe it, give loads of examples, create pseudo-scientific evidence and the likes. But we can't teach you to feel it, to believe it, to know it true with all your might. That's the dogma that everything lives. As long as there's energy, it lives. Through energy training, one may experience the truth of that dogma. For all others, it's just that, an unexplained dogma. That should qualify as a personal mystery.

A completely other kind of mystery is the big "Why?". My religion holds true that the universe is cyclic in the same way a person may reincarnate. Even God are a reincarnation. We believe God have the sole purpose to create the next universe. We don't exactly strive for that universe, for it would mean that we ourselves cease to exist. But we believe that we live in order to help God achieve their purpose. And there's one question we can't answer. That question is "why?". It's a big mystery. We can put the question off by answering "because that's the way it is", but that isn't really an answer and merely illustrate that we are unable to answer at all. We merely believe. That's not a personal mystery, but it's a mystery of our belief as a whole.

See? I can explain the mysteries of my religion in some detail. The mystery is quite clear, nevertheless it remains a mystery.

What's your religion called, may I ask?