Autism or ODD ?

[Lunacie]

So - Nove'Mber had a bad night and didn't sleep well, and has a bad morning at school. She got frustrated and angry and lashed out at a Para. Got put in time out and went into a 3-hour meltdown. She is suspended from school for one day for hitting a Para.

Her dad laughed and said, "Like she could actually hurt anybody." Funny how his attitude is so different with the 6 year old than with her 10 year old sister. If she had hit someone and gotten into trouble, he would have grounded her for six months. But with this one he says, "Come on, she's just a kindergartener." Grrrrr.

Her mommy and the therapist have been taking about the possibility of adding a diagnosis of ODD to the diagnosis of Autism, but I'm just not seeing it. She gets frustrated, all kids with neurological disorders get frustrated because they don't "get" the social cues, don't know how to express their feelings. So how does a doctor or a therapist make a diagnosis of ODD in a child who has only started lashing out deliberately in the last month or two - how do they know this isn't just the child going through a normal stage of childhood a few years late because of the mis-firing brain?

How do we minimize the frustration when she isn't able to explain things that are frustrating to her? Eeeeep!

[Cat]

So how does a doctor or a therapist make a diagnosis of ODD in a child who has only started lashing out deliberately in the last month or two - how do they know this isn't just the child going through a normal stage of childhood a few years late because of the mis-firing brain?


They don't. That's why the diagnosis cannot be made until there is a pattern of 6 months of oppositional behavior to look at. Also, 6 is awfully young for that diagnosis. Just my opinion, but I'd get a second opinion on her case.

[Sun Sprite]

While the diagnosis most likely is premature - there may be some behavior therapy ideas from ODD that are applicable to your granddaughter. In fact, they just may stem the tide, and turn the wolf off at the path so to speak. Once a bad habit starts, it is nigh impossible to break, but stopping it before it gets settled as a daily part of life could be just what she needs. Once she has had six months to develop the habits, it could take years, or decades to undo.

My suggestion - go ahead and study the behavior therapies used for ODD, and decide which may help you and your grandaugther. Part of lashing out against authority is fear, miscommunication, anger, and other misinterpreted emotions in either the child, the authority, the environment, or the other people in the environment.

Some questions to be asked - Is she being asked to stop playing, studying, napping, whatever before, or after the other kids? Do they see her being treated different? Do the kids treat her different? Do the teachers treat her different than the other kids? Are they (kids or teachers) afraid of her?

What has happened in ther last 30 minutes before she has had one of these extreme episodes? Is she able to remember when she gets home? This needs to be documented - both what she, and the teacher (or kid) involved says happened to cause the argument.

At this stage it is most likely mis communication, or other forms of lack of communication.

Only other thing I can think to ask - How is her hearing? If it is normal, does she have a "mousey" teacher who expects her to obey wispers from the other side of the room? I know I only have one ear, and I am "mousey", I am aware of the problem, and try to make myself heard, but don't always succeed.

What do the teachers do to get her attention? Talk to her? Tap her shoulder? How engrossed does she get in what she is doing? Can someone talking attract her attention, or is she single tracked a lot? Does she focus too well on one thing?

Bottom line is to figure out what the cause of the outbursts is. It isn't easy, but doesn need to be addressed.

Teaching social skills with autism is very tough, and many do end up with the ODD label too since other people just don't want to deal with them.

I hope you find some answers soon.

Better days,
Sun Sprite

[Lunacie]

It's not abouit the label, it's about the behavior, and using labels makes communication about the behavior easier. We don't care where she falls on the Autism spectrum, we just need to find ways of dealing with the issues and making life a little less stressful for her and for us.


While the diagnosis most likely is premature - there may be some behavior therapy ideas from ODD that are applicable to your granddaughter. In fact, they just may stem the tide, and turn the wolf off at the path so to speak. Once a bad habit starts, it is nigh impossible to break, but stopping it before it gets settled as a daily part of life could be just what she needs. Once she has had six months to develop the habits, it could take years, or decades to undo.

My suggestion - go ahead and study the behavior therapies used for ODD, and decide which may help you and your grandaugther. Part of lashing out against authority is fear, miscommunication, anger, and other misinterpreted emotions in either the child, the authority, the environment, or the other people in the environment.

Some questions to be asked - Is she being asked to stop playing, studying, napping, whatever before, or after the other kids? Do they see her being treated different? Do the kids treat her different? Do the teachers treat her different than the other kids? Are they (kids or teachers) afraid of her?

What has happened in ther last 30 minutes before she has had one of these extreme episodes? Is she able to remember when she gets home? This needs to be documented - both what she, and the teacher (or kid) involved says happened to cause the argument.

At this stage it is most likely mis communication, or other forms of lack of communication.

Only other thing I can think to ask - How is her hearing? If it is normal, does she have a "mousey" teacher who expects her to obey wispers from the other side of the room? I know I only have one ear, and I am "mousey", I am aware of the problem, and try to make myself heard, but don't always succeed.

What do the teachers do to get her attention? Talk to her? Tap her shoulder? How engrossed does she get in what she is doing? Can someone talking attract her attention, or is she single tracked a lot? Does she focus too well on one thing?

Bottom line is to figure out what the cause of the outbursts is. It isn't easy, but doesn need to be addressed.

Teaching social skills with autism is very tough, and many do end up with the ODD label too since other people just don't want to deal with them.

I hope you find some answers soon.

Better days,
Sun Sprite

Thanks Sun Sprite, you've given me lots to think about - and to share with my daughter.


Nove's hearing is fine and I think the teacher in the special ed room (where this latest incident occurred) does a good job of communicating with the kids, and makes an effort to work with Nove'. But Nove' has times when she is just angry or frustrated and will not talk to us (and probably won't talk to the teacher either), and stomps or slams things or throws things or lashes out.

But this time was a little different, in that the Para told her something, turned and walked towards the door, and Nove'Mber got up and chased her and began hitting her.

I have ADHD, I believe her Mom has some signs of ADHD, and her Dad almost certainly has ADHD, it's hard for all of us to model good communication at home.

I was just talking about this with my daughter (her Mom) and mentioning that I was in my late 30's before I began to understand that I could moderate my own tone to change the way I come across. She said she is becoming more aware of her own tone in telling the girls what they need to do, using a "serious" tone so she doesn't leave room for argument. I think I must do that too, and then I get frustrated because I have to repeat myself and then I yell. We've all got a lot to learn.

I'll look for information on treating ODD behavior, thanks. :smile:

[Xander67]

Have you looked into the possibility of Aspbergers?

Many aspergers are wrongly diagnosed,

[Lunacie]

Oh, we looked into a lot of stuff in the last year and a half. My daughter and I have done a lot of reading and a lot of research, and our therapist has listened to us, and talked to and watched Nove', and he has talked to the other therapists in his office, and the diagnosis is most likely Autism - PPDNOS.

The thing with all these neurological disorders is that there is so much overlap between symptoms between them all that it seems a little silly to me to have to label each one so distinctly. We just want to deal with the behavior (hers, her sister's, and ours as well).

But when you're looking for information on the internet, it does help to have a "key word" like Autism or ODD to start the search.

[Xander67]

Just type in Aspbergers

It has similar signs but then it gets specific.

[Lunacie]

Yeah, thanks, I know about Asperger's. I have a friend whose son has Ausperger's. I did a lot of research and know that it's on the same spectrum as Asperger's. But between our research and confirmation by the therapist, we're pretty sure it's not Asperger's... it's Austism PPD-NOS. There is still a very large variation in the Autism spectrum though.

Again, this isn't about the label, it's about finding ways to help Nove'Mber deal with her frustrations and communicate better - and for us to help her and to communicate better ourselves.

Ya never know, reading back through some of the stuff on Autism and Asperger's as well as ODD may help something some together in our minds.

[Xander67]

yeah, ya never know, sometimes a bit of this, and a bit of that might help :)

[_Mo_]

You're right to hesitate in adding the ODD diagnosis. My little brother has become pretty violent this year (he's autistic, age fourteen). His worst meltdown happened at school when he completely destroyed a desk with his teeth and bare hands. (We had to pay $80 for the desk, he was suspended and kicked off every field trip for the rest of the year.) We took him to the doctor, and we were told that he may be feeling suicidal due to all of his frustrations and loneliness. I'm not suggesting your six-year-old is suicidal, but constant frustration can take a huge toll on people, especially children who are struggling to define their identity.

[Lunacie]

You're right to hesitate in adding the ODD diagnosis. My little brother has become pretty violent this year (he's autistic, age fourteen). His worst meltdown happened at school when he completely destroyed a desk with his teeth and bare hands. (We had to pay $80 for the desk, he was suspended and kicked off every field trip for the rest of the year.) We took him to the doctor, and we were told that he may be feeling suicidal due to all of his frustrations and loneliness. I'm not suggesting your six-year-old is suicidal, but constant frustration can take a huge toll on people, especially children who are struggling to define their identity.

Thank you. That's pretty much what I was thinking, but then I'm not the target of her lashing out, so it's easier for me to be objective.

[_Mo_]

True that; the families of disable children can sometimes be a bit blinded by their subjective viewpoints.

[Lunacie]

That's why I find forums like this so great, we have someone else to point out what should be obvious to us, but we're too close to things to see them objectively, eh. Just saw an example of that on the ADD forum yesterday.